Linguist Tweaks MS For Redefining "Genuine" 346
crazybilly writes, "The Language Log, home blog for several professional linguists, posted a story a few days ago about how Microsoft is redefining the word 'genuine' (as in the 'Microsoft Genuine Software Initiative') in an attempt to increase public sympathy for their anti-piracy efforts. From the article: 'An unlicensed copy of Microsoft Windows is perfectly genuine. It has exactly the same functionality as a licensed copy and was made by the same company... I suspect that Microsoft is attempting to redefine "genuine" because it has had a hard time getting sympathy for its actual complaint, namely unlicensed distribution.'"
Genuine? (Score:5, Interesting)
Thus, Microsoft I guess has some legitimacy in using the word Genuine. However the word leaves some room for pirated copies to qualify. Perhaps Microsoft shou ld have chosen a better word for their test? It seems unfair that a private com pany should be able to bend language to their will to mislead consumers... which should be illegal. On the other hand, "origin"... manufacturer? I think it su its well enough as-is. Otherwise the definition of "Genuine" will be as long as the MS EULA.
it's the future.... (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, I think this guy is using an outdated version of the word. Like when people use the word "ask" instead of "ax", or "Christmas" instead of "X-Mas".
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Don't watch much Futurama, do you?
Re:it's the future.... (Score:4, Funny)
"actual" Catholic Priest?
no thanks, I prefer to receive God's words through a Genuine Roman Catholic(R) Priest XP Cathedral Edition Update(TM)
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Re:it's the future.... (Score:4, Funny)
Why pick on Genuine (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why pick on Genuine (Score:4, Funny)
Here's the old definition:
1. any state, circumstance, opportunity, or means specially favorable to success, interest, or any desired end: the advantage of a good education.
2.benefit; gain; profit: It will be to his advantage to learn Chinese before going to China.
And here's my new version:
1. any state, circumstance, opportunity, or means specially favorable to microsoft's success, interest, or any desired end for microsoft: the advantage of a good microsoft education.
2. benefit to microsoft; gain for microsoft; profit for microsoft: It will be to microsoft's advantage to learn Chinese before going to China.
Re:Genuine? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not spurious or counterfeit; authentic.
And the definition of counterfeit?
To make a copy of, usually with the intent to defraud; forge:
Inasmuch as pirated copies of Windows are fraudulent copies, they are NOT genuine. It doesn't take a linguist to understand this. Just goes to show you that claiming authority in a given field doesn't make it so.
Re:Genuine? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Genuine? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Genuine? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Genuine? (Score:5, Insightful)
Process is every much as much part of geniuneness as material. At any rate, the certificate and license key that comes with an unauthorized copy of windows isn't genuine, no matter how you slice it.
Methinks the intellectual rigor of our cunning linguist friend doesn't quite meet Webster's second definition of genuine: Free from hypocrisy or pretense.
Re:Genuine? (Score:5, Insightful)
And the previous argument doesn't even take into account the second part of the definition of "counterfeit," which reads on intent -- namely, the intent to commit fraud.
Taking my chain of definitions one step further, what is fraud? According to the thesaurus, fraud is...
An act of cheating
Anyone care to argue that pirating software isn't cheating?
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I think that's a bad analogy.
(1) If Microsoft were in the business of selling CDs, then you would be correct: unauhorized copies are not genuine. What I mean by "in the business of selling CDs", is that a significant part of the value lies in the fact that it is a Microsoft CD, not an undetectable copy. This is like the difference in value betw
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Re:Genuine? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Genuine? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Genuine? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Pure drivel. Do you think that if somebody were to produce an absolutely perfect replica of a U.S. Mint hundred dollar bill, the government would stop caring? Believe it or not, the government's reasons for pursuing counterfeiters are not aesthetic.
Re:Genuine? (Score:5, Interesting)
The actions of the US Government or Microsoft against counterfeiters doesn't matter to this discussion. The fake bills are NOT from the US Government, so they are NOT genuine. However, the copied software code IS from Microsoft, so it IS genuine.
What Microsoft wants to do is attach the idea that their license is what makes Windows genuine or not. That IS a departure from the traditional definition of genuine.
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Your interpretation of "genuine" is inflexible and ignores all logic being presented to the contrary. You are repeatedly ignoring the "intent" component of counterfeiting.
Think about it. Your definition of "genuine" would also abolish all trademark law, simply by passing an original logo through a copy machine (analogous to a CD burner). Somehow I don't think that's really the direction you want to go with this.
Re:Genuine? (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember, the discussion isn't about whether I should be allowed to do that or not (that is where you would be going off topic). It is about semantics.
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The second one is counterfeit -- when you installed the first one, you were still within the bounds of the EULA. But you knew that you were breaking the EULA by installing the second one. Therefore, going back to the link between counterfeiting and intent, the second copy is the counterfeit.
Remember, the discussion
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As freedumb2000 said [slashdot.org], "a stolen BMW is still a genuine BMW and nothing can change that. I could even remove the BMW emblem and hammer out the serial number from the motor block. It will still be a genuine BMW. And a pirated/stolen copy of Windows is nothing else."
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Analogies based on currency are false analogies because of a special property of currency. Currency gains its value by fiat, in contrast to money with intrinsic value, such as gold and silver throughout most of known economic history. A $100 bill has an intrinsic value of maybe a few cents (I ignore, for expository purposes, the cocaine residue:); the fact that it is worth $100 is due to the fact that the US government says it is. If the US government suddenly declares that that bill is no longer legal ten
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Well, it seems the argument he's making is that somethign is not counterfeit/fake (and thus genuine) if it has certain properties:
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You've missed the point. (I know for sure because I am Bill Poser.) My Language Log post is not a lament about how the language is going to the dogs because "genuine" is being used "incorrectly", that is, in a way that deviates from whatever I think the standard should be. The point is that Microsoft is using "genu
Re:Genuine? (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree. Say I buy Windows XP, and then make a backup copy of the CD, so that should my original CD be destroyed, I still have a CD I can install from. Is that a genuine copy? There's no intent to defraud, and dictionary.com's definition of "counterfeit" (sense 3, the only noun sense that's not marked as "archaic" or "obsolete") is "an imitation intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; forgery." A backup copy is quite definitely not intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively.
And it's also not a forgery. "Forgery", according to the esteemed dictionary.com, has a few senses which might apply. Sense 3 is "something, as a coin, a work of art, or a writing, produced by forgery." "Forgery" in that sentence refers to sense 2: "the production of a spurious work that is claimed to be genuine, as a coin, a painting, or the like." Does that sense apply? I'll be generous and assume that "or the like" could cover digital information such as software. Is a burned copy of a Windows XP CD a "spurious" copy? Since it's indistinguishable, and preserves (in an information theory sense) 100% of the information in the original, it can't reasonably be called a "spurious work"; it IS the original work, by definition.
Now imagine, six months later, I lend that backup copy I made to a friend so that he can install XP for free. He knows I bought XP, he knows I made a backup, and he's under no illusions that he has the legal right to install it. Now is it a counterfeit copy? If it is, then you're claiming that whether or not something is "genuine" can change depending on what someone does with it, irrespective of the nature of the object itself. A genuine Picasso can never become a counterfeit, even if I were to steal it from its owner and sell it to someone else. It's still a genuine Picasso.
But a copy of Windows that was previously "genuine" can suddenly become "counterfeit" merely because I give the copy to someone? I reject that on strictly linguistic grounds. And I'm not even a linguist.
The general problem is when people take metaphors that apply to physical objects and then try to apply them to the replication of information. The specific problem here is that MS touts "Windows Genuine Advantage" as if it's somehow advantageous to you to confirm that you have a "genuine" copy of Windows. It is not even remotely so; it is only to Microsoft's benefit.
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YES. Congratulations, sir, you are a winner. Ironic, considering that you wrot
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So, your argument is, if a word has two dictionary definitions, and the way the word is used matches one, but not the other, the word is unacceptable.
This is an incredibly bad argument made in bad faith.. Your entire post, this post, and nearly every written and oral communication ever, fail that standard. You pre-ordained your conclusion
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Both the protasis and apodosis here are questionable. First, since when are pirated copies of Windows "fraudulent"? If I sell you a CD that I claim to contain Windows and it actually contains Knoppix, that is fraud. If I sell you a CD that I claim to contain Windows and it actually does contain Windows, there is no fraud, even if the sale violates the licensing conditions, unless I make false representations to you regardi
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Where have you been ? It's called advertising and it isn't just private companies that do it. You'll find that political "spin doctors" are doing exactly the same thing.
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On a slight side track, I really do despise these language conservatives. The meaning of words c
Cunning linguist jokes (Score:5, Funny)
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"War on Terror" by itself is meaningless and mostly a non-sequitor, but it sounds a lot better than "Invade countries and overthrow rulers." Similarly, "stealing" is more effective than "copyright infringement". And "pro life" does have a nicer ring to it than "
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Karl's really the repudiation of this semi-myth; he learned it from the Democrats, who learned it from the English professors, who got it from philosophers. (I'm not intending this as a political slam on the Democrats. Everybody tries to control the debate in every way they can think of, and that's no
To Redefine "Genuine" (Score:2)
Cunning linguists and Master debaters (Score:5, Funny)
if *that* bugs him, (Score:4, Funny)
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Ludacris (Score:2)
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Of course, as was predicted by Nastradamus [wikipedia.org]
Re:if *that* bugs him, (Score:5, Insightful)
Boy, you win the irony award today. The term "illegal alien" is the loaded, non-technical word ("PC speak," as you say, is another loaded, non-technical word). The correct term is "EWI" or entered without inspection.
Now the term "undocumented immigrant" does not mean quite the same thing, because an immigrant is someone who intends to remain in the U.S, and EWI does not imply that the person intends to remain in the U.S. Additionally, there are people who enter under visas (or visa waivers), and then simply fail to leave when their time is up. These are not EWI, because they were inspected when they entered.
However, as a matter of practice, people who are here as tourists and for business trips do it the proper way, being inspected at the border. Thus "EWI" tends to imply "immigrant." And there are relatively few working-class people who take the trouble to get a visa, then overstay. Much simpler just to cross the border. Thus, it is accurate in practice to refer to EWI persons as "undocumented immigrants" and vice-versa.
Now, as for the "illegal alien" word, I would like you to conduct a simple exercise, since you seem to have picked up so much erudition from Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity or whomever. I would like you to find me the statute in the U.S. Code which says that it is a crime for someone to enter EWI, or to overstay a visa. Go ahead, I can wait. Are you back yet?
The answer is, there is no such statute. Someone can be deported for not having authorization to be here (or the more modern term, "undergo removal proceedings"), however deportation proceedings are civil in nature, not criminal. They're not even a misdemeanor. (It is a crime, a felony in fact, to return to the US after being deported, but that's altogether different.)
So how's your driving? Do you ever exceed the speed limit? Do you coast through stop signs when you think nobody's around? Do you ever smoke weed? When you were a freshman in college, did you drink beer? I'm sure you do and did, because condescension and hypocrisy go hand in hand. My real question then, is whether you feel shame for being an "illegal driver" or an "illegal student" for having committed misdemeanors. I am equally sure you do not.
Stupid (Score:2)
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if it was something based on italian food but made differently or made with additional non-italian food in it then it would not be
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Genuine *does* mean something!
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Wouldn't genuine Italian food be food that was made in Italy? Otherwise it's only Italian-style food...
(thus sayeth the pedant
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Excuse me, I have to go eat something now.
stupid article plain and simple (Score:5, Insightful)
The logic of the article is just flawed. Even assuming a counterfeit version has an authentic CD, serial numbers have to be unique if it's being used by lots of people this serial has been COPIED. An unauthorised copy = counterfeit.
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Even a burned copy of a CD can be genuine! Consider a corporate site license which doesn't have a separate holographed CD for ea
Marketing (Score:2)
*sigh* (Score:2, Insightful)
Furthermore, must we have such useless ego-stroaking stories on sl
Re:*sigh* (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope, it's not him that's not making the distinction, it is Microsoft itself. Here's the original quote that LanguageLog had a problem with:-
The question here is if a copy of Windows, albeit gotten with an, shall we say, illegal licence, is less genuine than one with a legal licence. Bill Poser seems to think otherwise; because functionality is the same, the product is still the same, even if the licence isn't genuine, as you rightfully said.
So yeah, it is not him who's confusing between 'licences' and 'products', it is Microsoft. Microsoft isn't trying to sell genuine Windows software here through their "Microsoft Genuine Software Initiative" programme, it is merely trying to sell genuine licences. Microsoft doesn't seem to think this distinction is important, but the good linguist (who, despite your apparent disdain, is actually very highly respected in linguistic spheres) does.
We need legal clarification (Score:2)
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Some people steal cars, too -- should cars be illegal?
Actually, you know what? Some people kill other people. We should make people illegal too, so they can't be killed.
This story is so stupid... (Score:5, Funny)
Nice! I love it! (Score:2)
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Nice Try, But No (Score:5, Informative)
On the flip side, some of the pirated DVDs floating around out there are well known for just being very fast and easy to install on random hardware; especially for system builders, going from nothing to a completely installed Windows system with XPSP2 and Office in twenty minutes is a big deal even if the system is ultimately shipped with legitimate licenses.
Ultimately though we're talking about the use of the word Genuine. Sinec there's a tangible and measureable difference between the legitimate builds (less likely to be pre-0wned, more likely to be easy to install) vs. the pirated editions, I'd say there's a hat to hang the "genuine" phrase on, at least from a linguistic perspective.
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He picked the wrong word (Score:5, Insightful)
But that's just me...
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Cheers,
Dave
This is actually correct (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to discuss redefining terms, how about discussing Microsoft's definition of downtime vs. the rest of the industry's definition of that term.
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Except that a "counterfeit" copy of Windows is identical in every conceivable way to a "genuine" copy. Whether a copy is "counterfeit," according to Microsoft, depends entirely and ONLY on whether you paid Microsoft what they charge for a copy. In all other respects, they're indistinguishable. That's why it's a linguistic clusterfuck.
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No it isn't. The physical medium wasn't prepared by Microsoft or one of its legitimate manufacturing partners.
Having a fake hundred dollar bill that's identical right down to the fiber doesn't make it any less counterfeit.
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But the physical medium is not what makes Microsoft Windows, the medium is essentially just packaging for the software. Microsoft Windows is the same product whether it comes on a CD, a DVD, a download, a disk image pushed over a network, etc.
Having a fake hundred dollar bill that's identical right down to the fiber doesn't make it any less counterfeit.
No, but having a real $100 bill that is legally
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You're missing the point. We're not arguing whether it's Windows on the CD, we're arguing whether it's a GENUINE copy of Windows.
No, but having a real $100 bill that is legally not supposed to exist (ie, it was heavily worn and exchanged by a bank for a new bill, after which it was supposed to be destroyed) does not make it less genuine. It is illegal, but not counterfeit.
Pointless analogy, since the copies of Windows that we're talking about ARE c
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The problem is that you (and Microsoft) are defining "counterfeit copy" as "one that was not installed legally." We already have a term for that: "illegal copy." "Counterfeit copy" literally has no semantic meaning for indistinguishable, bit-for-bit copies of data. It's gibberish.
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Actually, in many cases a "pirated" copy of MS software was prepared by Microsoft. One of the kinds of pirating that Microsoft is concerned with is one in which a single, legitimate, Microsoft-produced CD is used to install MS Windows on a bunch of machines. Only one license has been purchased but multiple machines have been set up, so Microsoft loses money. Another scenario with which they are concerned is one in which CDs intended to be used only by OEMs are sold at a discount to end users. Here again, t
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The "copy" is the data, not the medium it's on. If I (illegally) download a Windows XP ISO from the Internet, and burn it onto a CD-R, I still own the physical CD-R, just not the copy of Windows on the CD-R.
What if buy Windows XP legally, and rip the CD to an ISO image, as a backup? Legit and legal, yet the physical medium (my hard drive) was neither "prepared" by MS or one of its "legitimate ma
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A counter-example would be a fake Rolex watch. A copied watch is NOT an exact duplicate, because it came from a different manufacturer than Rolex. In that case, the fake Rolex is not genuin
Microsoft response: (Score:2)
Semantics shemantics - there IS a "WGA" here (Score:2)
It's not sympathy they're after (Score:3, Insightful)
Linguistic interpretation (Score:2)
That said, every marketing campaign aimed at bra
what the linguist ought to object to . . . (Score:2, Insightful)
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Come on. (Score:4, Insightful)
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It's Saturday night. It's a chance to take a shot at Microsoft? What else is there for a Geek to do?
NOW you notice? (Score:2)
a matter of understanding more than symantics (Score:2)
Microsoft's Warning (Score:4, Interesting)
Every week, Windows Defender repeats the above pledge. There are two problems here:
I am not sure that Microsoft's definition of unwanted software is the same of mine; I *am* sure that my definition of unwanted software includes things that Microsoft is doing that are not in my interests.
genuine advantage (Score:3, Insightful)
If I made a copy of my favorite CD or DVD, would that copy be genuine/authentic? Would it have the same value as my original CD/DVD? Some may argue that the material itself is different. What if I can get the exact blanks and even stamp them instead of burning and even apply the correct cd cover. I mean, it's just bits right? What if I photocopy every single page out of a book? Would that book be an authentic copy? All the words are the same and I can even use the same paper and cover. To me, an genuine software isn't just the bits, but comes with the manual, the box, the support, the warranty, etc. I personally wouldn't call any of these home-brew copies authentic or genuine, but that's just me.
As for the word advantage, I noticed some people were saying how that's being redefined too. Let me ask you this. Do you think there's an advantage to having free support and updates? Do you think any company should provide free support and updates to people who stole from them?
Just my 2 cents.
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- Well officer, I had a license to drive cars but you know I didn't keep track of it so why do you care if I use this one someone else gave me? I mean I had a license at one point!
- I had a ticket to get on this plane, but since I lost it I just made this one in photoshop. What do you mean you won't take it? I'll just take an empty seat!
This boils down to main issue of the digital revolution which is the pathological belief of a large number
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I printed myself a boarding pass for one of my flights, and couldn't find it in the morning. I knew all of the information (flight #, seat, boarding group), so I took an earlier boarding pass and edited it (the mac doesn't have a printer, so I save things as
They most certainly accepted it, and I got on the flight without issue. Was w
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Am I missing something? Every self-printed boarding pass I've ever used had a barcode on it. I sincerely doubt that you were able to forge that, especially since you were lacking the original.
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It doesn't change "it", but "it" isn't true. Copyright violations aren't theft, they're copyright violation.
Theft \Theft\, n. [OE. thefte, AS. [thorn]i['e]f[eth]e, [thorn][=y]f[eth]e, [thorn]e['o]f[eth]e. See Thief.]
1. (Law) The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal propert
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Linux is not secure when in the hands of people who have always-on connections, but zero interest in working to keep their machines secure. Has there been a distribution yet shipped which did not have significant security issues, especially for people who want to -use- their computer, not learn about it?
I know quite a few people who -do- like computers, got their degrees in the field, continue to work in that field, who are the sort of person who'd build their computer rather than buying pre
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