It's OK to keep AIMing 305
fooby12 writes "According to the Univeristy of Toronto instant messaging does not hurt the grammar of the people who use it. From the article: "With 80% of Canadian teenagers using instant messaging and adopting its unique linguistic shorthand, many teachers and parents are concerned about the medium's potential to corrupt kids' grammar. But instant messaging doesn't deserve its bad reputation as a spoiler of syntax, suggests a new study from the University of Toronto.""
NO WAI! (Score:3, Funny)
{o,o}
|)__)
-"-"-
O RLY?
{o.o}
|)_(|
-"-"-
YA RLY
{o,o}
(__(|
-"-"-
NO WAI!
(Courtesy of the usual suspects [wikipedia.org])
Re:NO WAI! (Score:5, Insightful)
Fortunately we have the Internet with places like slashdot, where everybody's bad grammar and spelling can shine.
(And when I starting talking in l33t3, just do what a guy I knew does: go to the mall. Being around all the Valley-speak tends to normalize the speech centers somewhat.)
Re:NO WAI! (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bad terminology (Score:5, Informative)
eg.
That it was May thus dremed me
In time of love and jollite
That al thyng gynneth waxen gay
For there is neither busk nor hay
In May that it nyl shrouded ben,
And it with new leves wryen.
These greves eke recoveren grene,
That dry in wynter ben to sen,
And the erthe waxeth proude withal
For swete dewes that on it falle . . .
Maybe thats why the can still do well in their English classes.
Re:Bad terminology (Score:2)
Re: "Net doesn't corrupt grammar??!" (Score:3, Funny)
That it was May thus dremed me
In time of love and jollite
That al thyng gynneth waxen gay
For there is neither busk nor hay
In May that it nyl shrouded ben,
And it with new leves wryen.
These greves eke recoveren grene,
That dry in wynter ben to sen,
And the erthe waxeth proude withal
For swete dewes that on it falle . .
'Tweener Net
in mAY i hd a drem
like a stry it seems
i luv it now lol
tht all that ssht is kewl
May has these prety leeves
Fck hey its green like sleves
Winter sukked so flipin cold
gimme a light
Re:Bad terminology (Score:3, Insightful)
Because it arrived prebutchered.
S'ok, if you think it's bad now, you should have seen what was happening to it in the 1500s.
KFG
Re:Bad terminology (Score:2)
More importantly, people tend not to use it in actual speech, though I've heard a few people actually say "LOL", as in, "El oh el" out loud. Since most netspeak is abbreviations and acronyms used to save time, there's really no point in saying "IIRC", "AFAIK", "OMG", or "NSFW" in person.
Okay, I have heard people use "WTF?" in person, but that may be just a way of self-censoring obscenities.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't seem to have much of a sense of humor. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:ROFLMAO. (Score:3, Funny)
I don't understand how the parent managed to make a confident proclamation about the attribution of the quotation, then completely failed to get the point of the quotation itself. Oh right...Slashdot.
Re:ROFLMAO. (Score:2)
Re:ROFLMAO. (Score:2)
The study mentioned in the blurb may show that it doesn't affect their offline grammar, but with 8 out of 10 executives at my company being compleatly unable to put together a readable email, I think online grammar should be made a priority as well.
Oddly Enough (Score:2, Insightful)
In truth, it seems like a non-issue to me. (Score:4, Interesting)
One of the points a teacher once impressed on me is that the English language is a "living" language - new words and new usage are central to that definition as "living". The English language is a language of usage. If enough people use the language in a certain way, then that way of speaking or writing becomes acceptable. For example, I can google on a subject if I need more information. Erm, how do I AltaVista something? Oh, wait; AltaVista isn't defined as a verb nowadays, but Google is, or at least google is (Google is a proper name, of course).
Now, Latin and Hebrew are good examples of dead languages. One Rabbi I studied under told me that the closest you could come in Hebrew to saying "Jumbo Jet" might literally be translated as "big silver bird that flies fast". Those are dead languages; any unacceptable use of grammar or syntax is incorrect.
English, however, adapts and grows to accomodate the concepts and lifestyle of its users - hence, googling, IM'ing, and a whole host of other newfound verbs and nouns which weren't in the lexicon a decade ago. If online chat clients encourage people to find briefer ways to express themselves, perhaps this is simply English evolving into a more compact, precise form.
Re:In truth, it seems like a non-issue to me. (Score:2)
Re:In truth, it seems like a non-issue to me. (Score:3, Interesting)
Because Shakespeare is not too hard to read, you have to think it through sometimes, but it is very understandable; Chaucer is like reading another language.
As a demonstration, the first 4 lines of "The Canterbury Tales":
Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed ev
Re:In truth, it seems like a non-issue to me. (Score:3, Interesting)
A lot of the problems with teaching Latin come from the fact that many modern IE languages have lost their inflection (in the case of English, almost entirely) and rely on prepositions and word or
Re:ROFLMAO. (Score:3, Insightful)
Churchill (or whomever) could have easily said, "I will not put up with the practive of ending a sentence with a preposition."
Alternately, he could have kept his basic sentence structure and used a verb, instead of a prepositional phrase that acted as one. "The ending of a sentence with a preposition is a practice I will not tolerate."
Re:It also teaches typing (Score:2)
-uso.
Re:Bad terminology (Score:2)
No entry found for affecters.
Re:Bad terminology (Score:2)
English is a living language. You understood his intent, therefore, if popularly adopted, it will become a de facto word.
Re:Bad terminology (Score:2)
Instant msg-ing messes with grammar? As if! lol! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Instant msg-ing messes with grammar? As if! lol (Score:2)
A simple "l" is a short chuckle.
Adding the exclamation point, "l!", gives the chuckle a short punctuality, more like a chortle.
Capitalizing it adds volume, so that "L!" is a loud chortle.
"lol" is a soft laugh. "lol!" is a short, soft laugh. "LOL!" is a short, loud laugh.
Moving up in the lol-family, we have "
that is gd (Score:3, Funny)
To the Contrary! (Score:4, Informative)
- dshaw
Re:To the Contrary! (Score:2)
No, it hasn't. I'd be willing to bet you didn't learn a single word or skill from AIM that was applicable to the SAT. Most of the important vocabulary words are picked up in reading, not every day speech, and the reading comprehension skills for the SAT are drastically different from what you would use in conversation. You can't even say it didn't hurt, because you have n
Re:To the Contrary! (Score:4, Funny)
I'm pretty sure that "it has led me to getting" is grammatically incorrect. You might want to try "it has led to me getting" instead; while it involves splitting an infinitive, a practice frowned upon by some, I believe it to be far more correct than your version.
Furthermore, "just like emails or passing notes in class" is not a complete clause, so I don't believe your other sentence to be grammatically correct either. I intend no offense; however, you attaining a near perfect sore on your "SAT exam" may say more about the aptitude of the SAT to measure your proficiency with the English language than it does about your own aptitude.
P.S. English is my third language. If I have made any grammatical mistakes in my post, feel free to correct them; however, if you do happen to come across such mistakes, please keep my ameliorating circumstance in mind.
Re:To the Contrary! (Score:2)
Actually, the correct form in English is 'it has lead to my getting.' It could also be made syntactically correct with the addition of a comma, although the semantics would be slightly different.
English is my third language
Which probably explains your grasp of grammar. In my experience, foreign language grammar is much better taught than native language grammar.
Re:To the Contrary! (Score:2)
I have to also agree with the sibling post that native grammar is often much worse than foreign language grammar - I learned more about grammar in Spanish class then I did in English class, which mostly focused on literature and vocabulary (much to my detriment). However, in talking to my adult peers, this seems to be a product of my school's curriculum, not necess
Re:To the Contrary! (Score:2)
That is pretty much useless when it comes to IMs.
Word Processor Autocorrect (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Word Processor Autocorrect (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Word Processor Autocorrect (Score:3, Funny)
I agree with you on this. I also replied to the parent post, but there is a huge difference between when the software shows you the mistake, perhaps suggesting an alternative, and when it simply "fixes" it. For example, open Microsoft Word and typ
Re:Word Processor Autocorrect (Score:3, Interesting)
To me, AIM called instant attention to spelling lazyness, not grammar issues. I thought it was an AIM-borne disease where one by one my friends all started to use 'your' in place of "you're." I think it's an easy place to pick up bad speaking habits, but that's certainly nothing new... people pic
Not done nuthin' 2 me. (Score:2)
Careful where you keep that chat history active though. Never know what your sysadmin finds interesting.
Hand Writing has suffered (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Hand Writing has suffered (Score:3, Informative)
Good thing you don't lose them before you have a chance to loose them.
Re:Hand Writing has suffered (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hand Writing has suffered (Score:2)
Thanks. Much appreciated.
Re:Hand Writing has suffered (Score:2)
Re:Hand Writing has suffered (Score:2)
No, your mom was wrong. Typing quickly is a more important skill for you to have than writing quickly. And if this ever changes, then you'll rapidly become better at writing quickly as you get more practice.
There's nothing intrinsically better about being able to write quickly compared with being able to type quickly. It's a type of old-fashioned snobbery.
100 wpm (Score:2)
Who can!? You realize, I hope, that it takes years of experience with shorthand to get to writing that fast (though some savants have gotten up to 350 wpm).
Normal handwriting tops out at about 50 wpm for people good at it, according to what I've read.
Re:Hand Writing has suffered (Score:2)
Canadian teens? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Canadian teens? (Score:2)
Re:Canadian teens? (Score:2)
Maybe it's just me (Score:5, Insightful)
From a business perspective, I've seen college graduates emailing using the typical IM abbreviations -- but typically, when reminded that it's not appropriate, I'd say that the grammar of these new hires tends to be as good or better than some of what I see elsewhere. At least they've been communicating in a non-verbal format.
If anything, I find that those who have IM'd a lot tend to have an easier time of getting their message across clearly in emails -- maybe it's due to their understanding of the shortfalls of text communication.
M-m-m-max (Score:2)
Back in the '80s, parents were worried that kids would try to copy Max Headroom's stuttering.
...WTF were they thinking? S-s-s-seriously! No-No-No one would ever t-t-t-talk like th-th-that.
(I need a Coca Cola! Haah!)
I instant message and use IRC all the time. (Score:2)
NO, it's NOT! (Score:5, Insightful)
NOT AIM! [jabber.org]
MOD PARENT UP! (Score:2)
Re:NO, it's NOT! (Score:2)
Re:NO, it's NOT! (Score:2)
You could say the same thing for email, were it not for ISP support, Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo Mail, and more. The nice thing about both email and Jabber is it lets me run my own server, under my control, using whatever client/server software I want, and still talk to everyone who just wants to pick a free solution off the Internet or take what their ISP gives them.
Not True (Score:2, Funny)
Speaking of grammar (Score:2)
I vaguely remember my English teachers telling me not to start sentences with "but." I think that may also be a run-on sentence.
Re:Speaking of grammar (Score:2)
-uso.
Re:Speaking of grammar (Score:2)
1. ok: I have a car. I have a bicycle.
2. ok: I have a car and a bicycle.
3. not ok: I have a car. And I have a bicycle.
4. not ok: And I have a car.
5. ok: I have a car. I can't drive.
6. ok: I have a car, but I can't drive.
7. not ok: I have a car. But I can't drive.
8. not ok: But I can't
Re:Speaking of grammar (Score:2)
There is a subtle difference in meaning between split and unsplit infinitives. Let's use your example, modified:
We actually end up with a new verb, "not split." What is there no reason to do? Not split an infinitive. This changes the meaning from "Don't do [X]" to "Do [not X]." The two statements are logically different constructs. "Don't drive red cars" vs "Drive cars that aren't red." The difference
Toronto? (Score:2)
I'm reminded (Score:4, Informative)
also in the news (Score:2, Insightful)
Could it get worse if it's bad to begin with? (Score:2)
Maybe bad grammer isn't a bad thing. The main point is everyone can understand you. What's a difference between "me and my friend" and "my friend and I" to someone who doesn't have a rule book in their head? Maybe it's evolution of language.. losing the unecessary fluff and I guess unecessary letter with it.
Re:Could it get worse if it's bad to begin with? (Score:2)
Being able to communicate in a more formal environment.
I tend to agree (Score:2)
havin said that, when i m on im im concenred about getting the point across quickly and with the least amout of keyboard travel as possible, spellin and grammar take a backseat to speed and more importntaly flow of conversation....
Ok, back into "refined mode". I do find it interesting that I don't bother to correct spelling while conversing on IM, particularl
Re:I tend to agree (Score:2)
Re:I tend to agree (Score:2)
Unfortunately, I do believe we, as an American culture, are too content to allow too much departure from proper English in many areas. I'm no language purist or grammar expert by any means, but just listen to our t
Re:I tend to agree (Score:2)
That's an interesting speculation. A couple hundred years ago, many English words didn't have universally agreed upon spelling. (Think email vs. e-mail, except for many, many more words.)
As schooling became more and more common, standardization of spelling and grammar increased steadily. Now that the percentage of the population
Decline of Language (Score:2, Insightful)
I somehow doubt it... (Score:2)
Fun with Punctuation (Score:4, Funny)
Telegraph didn't hurt anybody's grammar (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Telegraph didn't hurt anybody's grammar (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, most kids these days spend a fair bit of time on IM / SMS / etc, whereas kids almost never sent telegraphs. It is plausible that using bad grammar and syntax would hurt more when you're young and still learning.
I don't think telegraphs are a particularly relevant comparison.
Re:Telegraph didn't hurt anybody's grammar (Score:3, Funny)
Not correct to assume message content affected by path (stop)
Silly people (stop)
Re:Telegraph didn't hurt anybody's grammar (Score:2)
Whose brilliant idea was it to use "stop," anyway?
Re: (Score:2)
I agree.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I agree.... (Score:2)
That's not the problem (Score:2)
If studies also indicate they are perfectly capable of using decent english (or whatever) but just choose not...
c.
Kids These Days (Score:2, Insightful)
What are kids going to do to increase their grammar if they can't IM their friends? Sure some will write stories, journals and poetry but that isn't going to be a majority of kids. If they aren't practicing language in one way or another than their language skills will be far worse than "tainted IM language."
This is just another case of "oh no, the internet is evil" just like rock and roll was evil in the '50s O_o (what would that b
I think it helps (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I think it helps (Score:2)
I learned to type by mudding and playing Angband.
Instant messaging hasn't hurt my spelling or grammar - I now type fast enough to use normal English when messaging.
Re:I think it helps (Score:2)
As a member of perhaps the last generation to make it through high school without ever being required to use a computer for typing papers, I think the advent of computers has increased grammar and clarity in writing overall, because it has dramatically increased the speed and ease of editing.
If you are old enough, then think for a minute about writing in school. How often did you actually write second and third drafts? I bet it was only when the teacher required it. Now, I rewrite parts all the time, e
English as She is Written (in India) (Score:2)
why is it that so many people from India use the "u" and "r" shortening in semi-formal business communication? I was wondering if it was a prevelance of IMing there...
Re:English as She is Written (in India) (Score:2)
And come on, I pronounce you as "u" as well, I just know better than to use that in otherwise formalish business email.
Have fun! (Score:2)
Re:Is grammar taught anymore... (Score:2)
Re:Is grammar taught anymore... (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Is grammar taught anymore... (Score:2)
Re:Is grammar taught anymore... (Score:2)
That woman spent one month teaching us English grammar, at which point e
Re:Is grammar taught anymore... (Score:2)
Sorry, this is oversimplification. I've heard this before, and too often this argument is used to justify sloppy language education. One of the great benefits of academia is the common la
Re:Is grammar taught anymore... (Score:2)
Because the school system misdiagnosed my hearing problem as mental retardation and I had to be bussed to special schools to learn nothing. The school system gets three times as much money for a special ed student than a regular and they didn't want to reclassify me. Never mind that my reading skill level in the seventh grade was at college level since I was compulsive reader as young child.
Re:Is grammar taught anymore... (Score:2, Insightful)
Bingo! We have a winner.
KFG
Re:Is grammar taught anymore... (Score:2)
Re:Parents need to get their children to read more (Score:2)
O RLY?
Re:western union telegrams (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Instant Messaging doesn't hurt grammar (Score:2)
When you send an email it has to go much faster, but there is usually still time to run a spellchecker. Whenever you use IM there is so little time before the expected answer that you need to be fast at typing, with no time to check spelling and grammar.