Air Marshals Place Innocents on Secret Watch List 571
An anonymous reader writes "The Denver Channel 7 News reports that federal air marshals are operating under a quota for reporting a minimum number of suspicious travelers which is resulting in innocent people being placed on a secret government watch list. From the article: 'These unknowing passengers who are doing nothing wrong are landing in a secret government document called a Surveillance Detection Report, or SDR.'"
No wonder (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No wonder (Score:5, Interesting)
Apparently my dad was put on this a while ago when he flew into Las Vegas.
Nobody bothered him that day, but a few days later when he was checking in to go back home he was told he was put on a watch list. I guess the checkin person probably shouldn't have told him that, but she said it only meant a little extra attention on him at the airport and not to worry.
Since then, no one at checkin has mentioned him being on a list. However after that he hasn't been allowed to go back into the terminal to pick up my younger brother (which he had done several times before).
Re:No wonder (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe she was meant to? Could have various effects, such as
a) Deterrent. This person's less likely to do something bad if they know they're being watched.
b) Spread calm. A none-terrorist is gonna tell people "hey they put me on a watchlist!", giving people confidence that the government is actually on the watchout, keeping ppl safe.
c) Spread fear. Same as b, but in order to convince people there is something to fear, so they can be controlled better and hand over liber
Re:No wonder (Score:5, Funny)
Spread calm, spread fear, spread calm, spread fear - oops gotta pee - spread calm, spread fear...
You must love the terrorists (Score:3, Funny)
Re:No wonder (Score:3, Interesting)
That would depend on how quickly their "innocence" is established and removed from the list. It shows that they're watching people. But unless you're seen switching a bomb on in your shoe, it's always going to be a case of guesswork, which means "I would like to know who here really thinks the world is a safer place since 9/11"
9/11? To you that might be
Re:No wonder (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No wonder (Score:3, Interesting)
I had something similar happen to me when I was flying to Birmingham, England for a business meeting just before Christmas. Didn't think I'd ever have a problem leaving the country. When I tried to do Express Checkin at the NorthWest counter, the computer told me to see an agent in person. The guy taps my passport number into his terminal, says "Oh!" (never a good sign) and makes a phone call. I can only hear his side of the conversation, but I'm not really paying attention until ten minutes later when I h
Secret government list? (Score:5, Funny)
Well, I wouldn't call it a secret anymore.
Re:Secret government list? (Score:5, Insightful)
Boy, I'm feeling more secure everyday...Not.
Re:Secret government list? (Score:3, Insightful)
Wait (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, here's an idea: take all those government parasites that harass airplane passengers, run eavesdropping programs, make threats to journalist
Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, since 9/11, American's are now less safe than before.
How can that be?
Because the cost of airline travel in both time, money, and convenience has gone up. That has made more Americans look to alternatives, like driving, which are much, much less safe (per passenger-mile).
We'd probably be more safe had we responded to 9/11 by literally doing nothing at all.
Re:Wait (Score:3, Interesting)
But then we'd need a new
Re:Wait (Score:3, Interesting)
Even now, with Mr Blair's mroe bush like responses, us Londonners are very strong in their "i dont care attitude" to thigns like 7/7.. simply because if u show fear.. the terrorists have won.
Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)
Terrorists aren't the only problem to consider when you're talking about air safety. Crashes can happen for all sorts of reasons not related in any way to terrorism. And maybe air travel is indeed safer than driving even if, as a driver, you do everything you can to be careful.
But still, I say a safety statistic that lumps all drivers into one catego
Re:Secret government list? (Score:3, Interesting)
But this article is bogus. You have anonymous sources, who are supposedly federal air marshals, who are supposedly under pressure to file one report per month, come rain or shine. Notice that these "sources" are complaining about the quota system while still participating in it. That's some integrity for ya.
Do you know what a *trustworthy* air marshal would do in this situation? He (gender-neutrally spe
Re:Secret government list? (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, the FBI operates on guesswork -- taking this piece of info and coordinating it with that piece. If you're an FBI field agent and your superior doesn't agree with the way you are connecting the dots, well, too bad for your theory.
In the GAO, there is
Good thing.. (Score:5, Funny)
HERE is the program for the broke patriots (Score:5, Informative)
Sign up for Highway Watch brought to you by DHS and the American Trucking Association!
http://www.highwaywatch.com/newtoHWW/index.html [highwaywatch.com]
Obvious solution.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Obvious solution.... (Score:2)
Re:Obvious solution.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Obvious solution.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Obvious solution.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Obvious solution.... (Score:3, Insightful)
But then somebody would realize that the quota system was stupid. That would defeat the whole purpose.
No, the purpose is not to defeat terrorism. The purpose is to look like you're defeating terrorism.
IT? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:IT? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:IT? (Score:5, Funny)
26 July, 2006
Agent: StikyPad
Subject: mrxak
Individual was seen on Wednesday July 26, at approximately 0619 making suspicious inquiries regarding the nature of data categorization and storage. The subject posed as a "concerned reader," and asked what appeared to be harmless questions, however informants have stated that he may, in fact, have been planning to submit his own stories to improper categories. Surveillance indicates that this is just the beginning of a massive campaign of disinformation and misinformation designed to thwart intelligence collection and law enforcement capabilities -- clearly a grave threat to national security.
It is further believed that "mrxak" may actually be an alias, however his true identity has yet to be discovered. Subject must remain under continued observation at all times.
NNNN
Haha.. made quota!
The gov't ruining innocent peoples lives (Score:4, Interesting)
Sad that this "protection" we all pay for is causing headaches for people who are minding their own business.
Re:The gov't ruining innocent peoples lives (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure Bin-Hiding is laughing his ass off. He won.
Re:The gov't ruining innocent peoples lives (Score:5, Interesting)
And in the end, our company's legal advisors said that 6 weeks should be considered a very quick turnaround under the circumstances...
Re:The gov't ruining innocent peoples lives (Score:3, Funny)
Were you in the band X?
Re:The gov't ruining innocent peoples lives (Score:4, Funny)
It's not so bad... (Score:5, Insightful)
</sarcasm>
Seriously, I can't think of a worse system than quotas to put investigators under. It just screams Civil-Rights-Violation-Waiting-To-Happen.
Re:It's not so bad... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem isn't contractors taking advantage of the system, but rather that it's bureaucrats running the system. You don't get paid any more for doing a good job instead of a bad job, and the bureacracy as a whole actually benefits from bad jobs because they'll get more funding to fix the problem.
Re:It's not so bad... (Score:3, Insightful)
Assholes, if you SCAN a person and there are not any traces of this or that banned/suspicious substance on their person or in their luggage, then don't hinder their flyi
Re:It's not so bad... (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, and build a secret army while I'm at it for when the Feds come accusing me of voluntarily leaving paradise, because NOBODY leaves paradise. Everyone should be a happy little Borg.
From the Marshall's Journal (Score:5, Funny)
(wait for it)
AN AFGHAN!
More From the Marshall's Journal (Score:2)
Justice, in America? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Justice, in America? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Justice, in America? (Score:4, Insightful)
And they couldn't pay this out of existing assets -- this is to keep rich folks from simply walking -- it would have to be paid out of money earned by labor after the crime, in some industry chosen by the judge. And this would be after recouping the State for their imprisonment.
They could take some of those jobs the politicians keep saying that we need illegal immigrants for, because "Americans won't do them." After a few weeks in an 8x8, even scouring the inside of a sewage-treatment holding tank somewhere, sweating your ass off tarring roofs, or picking strawberries from dawn till dusk, probably seems positively fascinating.
Obviously, violators who are security risks and can't be let out into society would have to be given your basic in-prison license-plate stamping jobs, but there are probably a lot of non-violent, low-security inmates who could be let out during the day with some sort of GPS collar on to work and come back at night. If they didn't return, you could have a standard reward for bringing them back and have bounty hunters to it (and add that to their tab, naturally).
It's ridiculous that we have people just sitting around in prison, essentially doing nothing but being a cost to society after they've already been a cost to society (doing whatever it was that landed them in prison in the first place). At the very least, prison should be a break-even proposition. There's more than enough crappy manual labor to be done, particularly in the agricultural industries; we might as well put our prisoners to work, especially since the jobs are just going to illegal immigrants anyway -- the old argument that they'd be taking the jobs from legitimate industry doesn't apply.
Convict Lease (Score:3, Informative)
To quote a current internet meme: Perhaps you've not thought your cunning plan all the way through.
Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:5, Insightful)
Homeland Security: Our budget is proportional to the number of terrorists we find. When there aren't enough terrorists, we make them.
Ayn Rand was an optimist.
Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:3, Insightful)
I have mod points, but unfortunately there isn't a mod option for "trotting out the same old Ayn Rand quote whether it's applicable or not"
These people aren't being turned into criminals. They aren't breaking laws.
Don't get me wrong, I don't support what's going on. Hopefully it's another step towards the populace finally taking a stand against overly authoritarian government and saying 'no more'.
But please, enough of the Ayn Rand already.
Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's also a shame there isn't a mod option for "trotting out the same old knee-jerk, ad hominem Ayn Rand criticism whether it's applicable or not."
Put another way: if there were no Godwin, the Nazis would have found it useful to invent him.
Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, the Bushco solution to that is simply to keep laws secret. Not only do you save printing costs and shelf space, but it then becomes impossible to be sure that you're not breaking them. And when you inevitably do, your lawyer can't defend you because she's not allowed to read the applicable law, either.
All hail the GOP!
Sweet (Score:2)
Cause then I will be a part of history, when the government has to open these records (or more likely they are forced open during the next revolution)
Re:Sweet (Score:2)
You mean like sitting in the terminal posting a comment to Slashdot via a wireless connection?
I can't wait! (Score:3, Insightful)
Spooky,,, (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd rather be safe than free (Score:4, Insightful)
[neo con parody off]
Re:I'd rather be safe than free (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I'd rather be safe than free (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the most concise interpretation of the Franklin quote I've seen to date. Seriously. Good job.
The unfortunate part is that a lot of people in this country really would rather be safe than free. Or to be more precise, they want to FEEL safe than be free. True safety will never occur. Period. Just when you think every risk has been mitigated something new will come along. Its just human nature. Hell, scratch that, its the universe. Whether it be an act of violence, terrorism, or an asteroid slamming into the Earth, bad things will always find a way. The only solution is to accept it, move on, and live life to the fullest.
In regards to terrorism, Americans simply need accept that despite our best efforts bad people will do bad things from time to time, and if anything bad does happen they'll be punished for it. Surrendering to our fears and trading liberty for security is the cowards way out. The last 5 years has been a dark time in our nation's history, but its time we change that and start embracing the liberties we still have left. Put your chin up and your best foot forward and lets show them they can't keep us down.
oblig. 1984 reference (Score:5, Funny)
2006.07.25 DenverChannel malsaid "unorthodox" as "suspicious". rectify.
Re:oblig. 1984 reference (Score:5, Informative)
>
> 2006.07.25 DenverChannel malsaid "unorthodox" as "suspicious". rectify.
2006.07.25 cvd6262 malsaid oldspeak "unorthodox" as "facecrime" rewrite fullwise.
Quotas for security personnell (Score:5, Insightful)
God, just how DUMB are those national security morons? If anything, the NSA makes me feel LESS safe when I'm in the US. I feel like I'm under constant surveillance, being a suspect for being
Is that what you want to accomplish, NSA? Is that the goal? Alienate the rest of the world, even those that used to LOVE your country, turn the rest of the world into your enemy so you can have perpetual war? The US are turning faster and faster into everything I hated about the communist system.
Re:Quotas for security personnell (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's what really pisses me off about it:
When I was in grade school, I was taught about how great and free the USA was, and how horrible the USSR was, and the reasons were that over there people had to show their papers everywhere they went, the government was constantly spying on them, and they could be locked away without due process of law based solely on the accusation of treasonous acts.
Now those same things that made the USSR so bad are starting to happen here, and I'm told that this is okay because we're the USA, and we're inherently better.
It used to be that the USA was great and free because we didn't do those things. Now we're great and free because we're the USA, and therefore its okay for us to do these things. Greatness is now an inherent property of the USA, not the result of our actions.
The sad part is that I really believed what I was taught as a kid, that the USA was great because it did great things, and seeing what's going on now, even if it isn't nearly as bad as the USSR, strikes deeply at that childish part of me that still believes in honor, freedom, and greatness.
Jean Pierre Melville said it best (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you're all missing something very bad... (Score:5, Insightful)
If true, these people have just admitted they weren't subjecting innocent people to punishment because they'd lose their job otherwise and be unable to support their family -- an understandable, if still morally weak position. No, they did it because they wanted more money. Or a dental plan. Or a longer vacation. That's what's known as being stunning and embarassingly selfish.
At the risk of godwinning myself, what's that famous quote about the holocause that goes along the line of "there will always be number-crunchers behind the scenes eager to see if they can make the count even higher next time?"
Re:I think you're all missing something very bad.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Often, beurocracy cannot sustain its own weight. It expands and expands until it cannot do the purpose for which it was designed. Then it gets axed by a budget cutter, is reincarnated as lightweight version of itself, and expands until... you get the idea. It isn't a viscious cycle so much as a waste of resources and failed programs.
Sheep (Score:3, Insightful)
Bigger than the Las Vegas Air Marshll office (Score:5, Insightful)
Please read the related article..... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Please read the related article..... (Score:4, Insightful)
they are there for psychological puposes, so that people who think there is a threat feel safer. people can point to some action that the government is doing. "look, they have air marshalls and no-fly lists."
there is no worldwide terror organzation or network. go to archive.org and download (bbc documentary) the power of nightmares (i wonder how long it'll be up?) i have friends who work for "homeland security" and it's all a sham. too bad it costs us money.
Quantity or Quality (Score:5, Interesting)
This is your typical case of quantity being chosen instead of quality.
Wrong focus (Score:5, Funny)
Like snakes.
What I'm really scared of is mothaf*cking snakes on mothaf*cking planes!
no big surprise here (Score:5, Insightful)
I See Disciplinary Action Report (Score:3, Interesting)
The Marshalls just made the career limiting move of the rest of their *life* for what exactly?
For the next person that finds themselves in a similar situation, learn how to do this the right way.
1. If you disagree strongly enough, find another job.
2. While you are finding said job, get some professional help objectivly evaluating your options and creating a strategy.
3. Map out reasonable tactics and choose the plan that is best for you and your loved ones.
4. Execute plan and prepare for unexpected things. In general, the contractor you worked for will publicly discredit you and do what it can to punish you.
If you have done steps 1, 2, and 3 right, there's some protection from events in #4.
There is a reason ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why? Because even if governments adhere to what we might call the "industry-average in mindless stupidity" governments can cause far more damage than most industries. From the article:
"Q: What kind of impact would it have for a flying individual to be named in an SDR?
A: That could have serious impact ... They could be placed on a watch list. They could wind up on databases that identify them as potential terrorists or a threat to an aircraft. It could be very serious," said Don Strange, a former agent in charge of air marshals in Atlanta. He lost his job attempting to change policies inside the agency."
Ok, this former agent lost his job because he tried to change policies inside the agency. Anyone want to bet this was over SDR quota? And what other enlightened "policies" are in effect? And yes ... such things will stick around ... if only because it's a bit hard to shop around for alternative governments.
Ok ... so putting someone's name in an SDR has potentially serious consequences for that person. Add to this the (probably MBA-driven) desire for "quantifiable targets" and see the result. From the article "Although the agency strongly denies any presence of a quota system, Las Vegas-based air marshals have produced documents that show their performance review is directly linked to producing SDRs.".
Great ... just great. That leaves us with only one option ... don't fly near the end of the month.
This is the problem with Management by Objectives (Score:3, Informative)
It may take the form of playing games with when sales can be booked as income. It may be mucking with projections. It may be slamming the phone on the customer to goose up the number of calls per hour you handle.
Measurable objectives are important, but they're only half the story. You need leadership too. Strong programs of performance measurement, in the absence of strong leadership, degenerate into numbers games that can be beaten.
Guy I know is on the list (Score:5, Interesting)
So, he goes to the airport, checks his luggage, deals with the BS of being on the list, and flys to his job.
Whereupon he gets his luggage, puts on his uniform, gets his piece, puts on his ID, gets in his plane, and takes off.
He's a commercial airline pilot - authorized to carry a pistol in the cockpit, and to fly a plane full of people.
But he cannot board a flight as a passenger without a bunch of BS because his name is on the No Fly list.
Re:Guy I know is on the list (Score:5, Informative)
If you're not doing anything wrong.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Isn't that what the willful violators of our civil rights always tell the public? This sort of blows that out of the water.
I don't even know where to start arguing with this.
A second management memo, also dated July 2004, said, "There may come an occasion when you just don't see anything out of the ordinary for a month at a time, but I'm sure that if you are looking for it, you'll see something."
Are we really doing that bad a job of "fighting it abroad" that there are enough terrorists flying around the country for the thousands of air marshals to file one report every month?
Complaining about abuse of power? (Score:3, Interesting)
Rest assured that ... (Score:3, Insightful)
I think I'd prefer to go via Japan and Russia now-a-days. Seriously, US citizens, it really _is_ time for a regime change in the White House. The Republicans seem to have taken too many pages out of the Nazi rule books for my liking.
I got put on the watchlist last week (Score:3, Interesting)
So I was made to fill out the visa waiver form, and by the time I got back, I found myself on the watchlist. Do the USA really want me to come live in the US and work towards their GDP? Or not?
I'll find out in the next three weeks what it exactly means to be on the watchlist. I'm flying all over the country, so if it does take more time, I will be REALLY pissed. If it means I get stopped in Australia, then I'm going to be REALLY REALLY pissed, as it's completely bogus. I had committed no crime
Andrew
ps. My day job is security. This is security theatre. The folks who run the TSA should be ashamed of themselves. They are no friends of the security industry.
Re:WTF (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally I disagree with quotas in law enforcement, as I do not think that they help catch the bad guys out there. I do think there is a lot more to the story than TFA indicates.
Re:WTF (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm very much worried about the reliablity of my sources also, but rejecting a story just because it isn't from a headlining news source?
That just seem as dead-brained as blindly believing anything anyone says.
Re:WTF (Score:2)
Re:WTF (Score:3, Insightful)
I do find it a bit odd that Air Marshalls can't find at least one suspitious-looking person on a flight over the course of a month.
Why? Just how many terrorists do you think are out there? And of them, how many will be trying to take over a plane? If there were even a handful trying this, then it would be all over the news (as it supports the government agenda). And if someone isn't trying to take over the plane then what on Earth makes them suspicious and worth putting on a watch list? Flying while asi
Fahrenheit 451 (Score:5, Interesting)
In this book, they "killed" Montag at the end of the book by finding a random guy walking down the street and shooting him while the live cameras proclaimed that the "dangerous criminal" has been taken off the streets by the ever-vigilant government.
Simple smoke and mirror style politics. We need X number of criminals to justify actions A, B and C.
Obviously this does not apply to an Air Marshall who gets drunk and falls asleep on the plane but is the guy on the De Moines to Bend Oregon run going to find as many suspicious people as the guy on the NY to Boston run?
Re:Fahrenheit 451 (Score:3, Funny)
Sorry, but having stayed in both cities, I can categorically state there there is no valid earthly reason to be in either Des Moines, IA or Bend, OR. Obviously there's something truly fishy going on.
m-
Re:WTF (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, them damn hicks out west don't know squat. Now then, care to explain what makes an eastern paper more credible?
Re:WTF (Score:3, Funny)
Whoosh (Score:2)
Re:WTF (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:WTF (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Innocence (Score:2, Insightful)
Ha! Everyone's doing something wrong. We just need to find out what it is.
The spirit of Tailgunner Joe lives on.
Bullshit (Score:5, Interesting)
I am on that list. I don't know why; I have never been arrested or convicted or tried or anything else. I served honorably in the US Army. I fly all the time.
About 18 months ago, I got on this watch list. It isn't so secret if you are a traveller. You can't use the fancy-shmancy self-service kiosks. You have to wait for a representative to help you. They have to make phone calls. The entire process takes an addiotional 10-15 minutes of not only my time, but the service representative, as well.
There was some poor Thai girl in Bangkok. It was her second day on the job, and she freaked out when my name came up as I was checking in. It took them about 20 minutes to make the call to the US and get stuff squared away.
No, I have not been arrested because of it. But, as an innocent person, why am I singled out for bureaucratic harrasement? I am denied the conveniences of other citizens simply because of my name existing on a watch list.
So, I call bullshit.
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Bullshit (Score:3, Interesting)
MOS: 31V (Score:3, Funny)
I was a 31V, cross-trained as a 31C. That is, I field-serviced two-way radios, and I did a little training as a RATT operator (radio teletype, for long-range communication). If the bad guys need a handset on a PRC-77 or their RC-524 replaced, I could do it. Not that
Re:clubhouse (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:News for nerds? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's probably posted because people here seem to care about civil rights and, in particular, about how they apply to domestic government surveilance. What's wrong with that?
this whole site slides further and further to the left every day
So? If the concept of civil liberty offends you, then I guess this isn't the site for you. Problem solved.
(I love how 'left' and 'liberal' are dirty words now, say what you want about the Republican party, but their PR is top notch)
Re:Easy Solution (Score:3, Funny)