Engineers Working Harder for Their Paycheck 268
Editorgirl35 writes to tell us Design News has posted their annual engineering salary survey. While it does offer encouraging results with salaries up a bit from last year it also shows that engineers are, on the average, doing a lot more to earn that paycheck including supervisory and budgetary functions. From the article: "Kody Baker, a 28-year-old mechanical engineer agrees, "Yes, we are doing far more than just designing products," he says. He's a project manager, manufacturing engineer, product designer, R&D engineer, test engineer, CAD systems specialist, CAD instructor/mentor, and more, juggling many roles in his job as a mechanical application engineer at Honeywell."
Welcome to life (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, someone managed to write an article about this concept?
Re:Welcome to life (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to life (Score:5, Informative)
Thats the first thing I thought of when I read this.
Re:Welcome to life (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to life (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Welcome to life (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Welcome to life (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Welcome to life (Score:3, Informative)
Engineers cannot joing unions? [WRONG] (Score:2)
Look it up some time. When I graduated from WSU in Mechanical Engineering the first thing they asked was, "Can you program fluently in C and write software for us?" I went back to study Computer Science. I'm now trying to bring back my M.E. skills and marry them with my CS skills. Otherwise, I'll become even more obsolete.
If hours and salary are constant I'll do whatever (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to life (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the article was trying to say that the number of job duties foisted on engineers was increasing. You are right, if all the article said was that people do things outside their job requirement, then the article says nothing interesting. I believe the article is trying to say that people are doing more things outside their job duty. This second statement (the differential) would be something interesting. The differential would be worth studying.
Unfortunately, the article in question is based on a survey that sounds highly subjective to me. It doesn't sound like they have a substantial data set to substantiate the claim of increased work loads. I suspect many people feel like their work load increases with time; a survey based on feelings would not be sufficient to substantiate a claim of an increased work load.
Average pay is far from real life (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Average pay is far from real life (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Average pay is far from real life (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Average pay is far from real life (Score:5, Funny)
Not that it really maters for the chicken in question though.
Re:Average pay is far from real life (Score:4, Interesting)
As to the trend, I would say that the current economic conditions are pushing companies to push their engineers into new areas. But engineers always do whatever they have to to get the job done. When I did computer stuff at NLK Consultants, it was routine to hand engineers new software tools and watch them go and use them -- no training, no big deal, just part of the job.
It is also worth observing that other than one person's quote, most of the article deals with _skills_ that engineers think are important -- not their actual duties. There were few hard stats about how much more they are doing other than "50% say they are working in more areas than they did a year ago". I think that engineering is less subject to change and management interference than the average business -- something to do with rule #1: make sure the bridge doesn't collapse. Making an article like this bogus by default.
OT: Re:Average pay is far from real life (Score:2)
Re:Average pay is far from real life (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Average pay is far from real life (Score:2)
The guy was just pointing out that real-world jobs pay a lot less, and the statistics are probably skewed by a small percentage that pay a lot more - and good luck getting one of those jobs.
Re:Average pay is far from real life (Score:3, Insightful)
I hate this kind of response. I would think many slashdotters speak English as a second language, and may have less than perfect grammar. This is an accomplishmnet that should be respected and admired, not scorned. Please, show a little respect.
oh wait,
Re:Average pay is far from real life (Score:2)
Re:You are thinking of the mean (Score:2)
Re:You are thinking of the mean (Score:2)
Engineers not the only ones... (Score:4, Insightful)
As I understand it, people across America have been working harder for the same pay for some time now. This trend is exemplified by less vacation time taken by Americans, greater hours worked for the same relative pay, and fewer benefits offered than even a decade ago.
I believe the Economist had a special on this a while ago, showing that Americans are four times less likely to achieve high net worth status than Canadians, even though they work more hours and take on more responsibilities.
60 Minutes - CBS (Score:3, Insightful)
It was just on a rerun of 60 Minutes tonight saying the same thing. Thanks to technology (especially the Crackberry) and this social more were quantity is more important than quality - hence all of the stupid meetings and being in the office for the sake of being there. It's too bad that the jobs that pay based on results are only in sales. I'd go there, but I suck at it.
Re:Engineers not the only ones... (Score:5, Insightful)
re: spending (Score:5, Informative)
In the cases of most people I know (and even in my own case), we're in that majority of Americans who are expected to do more work for less pay - and yet, we're striving to scrape together some kind of lifestyle we aren't ashamed to have around our friends and family.
EG. I could theoretically "put away" more of each paycheck in investments, rather than spending all of it, BUT I'm just about out of corners I can cut. My current salary is thousands less per year than I was paid to do a job involving LESS responsibility, 6 or 7 years ago - and that's after a long stint of unemployment/self-employment and heavy job hunting. Meanwhile, gasoline costs roughly 3x as much as it did back then, and even little things like going out to lunch are about double the cost. (I remember around 1997 or 98, it was quite possible to buy lunch for under $4.00. I used to go to Subway and get a 6-inch cold cut trio sandwich with chips and a drink for about $3.90. To do the same today is around $6.00-$6.50 depending on the store and local taxes.) I get paid bi-weekly and the check I receive at the end of each month is completely wiped out by just my house payment, car payment, and my choice of one smaller bill such as electric, gas, or telephone. The other check is well over half gone just paying for my other utility bills and car insurance. That leaves me with maybe $300-400 for everything else, including groceries, gasoline, car repairs and maintenance, home repairs or improvement, and so on. And I don't even live in a good neighborhood or a "big house" by any means!
I have 2 credit cards, but one has only a $500 balance and the other a $250 balance. Even maxxing those out and paying their outrageous interest rates - that's not going to bury me financially. (And for the record, I have a 0 balance on the $500 limit card and try to keep it that way 90% of the time.)
It just bothers me to get "the lecture" from people about not saving for a "rainy day" -- when doing what they suggest would involve something like going without electricity for a month, or running out of food for my kid. There are a growing number of people out there just like me
Re: spending (Score:2, Insightful)
And we hit the point of debt. We are trained to live the correct life style we need things to show off status. Debt allows us to show this status to friends and family to make them feel like you did something with your life. If we realized our standard of living is not a G/god given right, then we may be able to stay out of debt. So lets assume you live in the North East US not NYC. What you need.
Shelter: Studi
Re: spending (Score:2)
You obviously don't like anywhere even close to DC.
Re: spending (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously, the above is not a solution to all of your problems, and I am not meaning it to be, but instead I am simply reminding everyone that EVERYTHING adds up, not just the big purchases. Good Luck!
Re: spending (Score:2)
I take that one step further - I almost always bring my lunch to work. The combination of a sandwich, chips, a soda, and a piece of fruit works out to be around a dollar or so.
Re: spending (Score:3, Interesting)
Buying a TV for cash is spending money. Getting a car loan or an apartment is spending income - you are committing that amount for a long time. Have a kid and feed him for 20 years, etc.
You have to be ten times as careful spending your income than when spending your cash - $50 here, $
Re:Engineers not the only ones... (Score:3, Funny)
Not to say that this doesn't accurately describe how i spend my money, but you might wanna watch your similes.
Re:Engineers not the only ones... (Score:5, Funny)
Actually, the mafia has a tiered compounding interest rate for all of their loans..I've seen their policy. IIRC, the rate chart looks something like this:
1 week: Veiled threat to kill your family.
2 weeks: Tiretreads of a '76 Buick LeSabre or 82' Cadillac Deville over your arm
3 weeks: A lead pipe to the knee cap or lower back - your choice
4 weeks: Gunshot wound to your shoulder, courtesy of Bambino "the Stallion" Carmatsi
5 weeks: A free face stabbing
The chart I saw only has listing for the five weeks, but I hear they have long-term plans as well.
Re:Engineers not the only ones... (Score:2)
They're going to be rich if they can hook it up to a web interface.
Re:Engineers not the only ones... (Score:5, Interesting)
For example, the borrower parks his car where it can be conveniently stolen, and waits to report it missing until the chop shop has had 48 hours to strip it. He then collects $20,000 in insurance, but somehow, he ends up driving an old beater. The rest of that payout goes to the loanshark. (The victim usually gets to keep a junker so he can keep working, to get those paychecks that will serve as part of the "renegotiated" payments).
Or, the debtor sells his house for $30,000 less than the going rate to a buyer his loan shark refers. The homebuyer gives an agent connected to the mob a fee of about $15,000 on that 30, for a sweet deal from his point of view. Under lots of pressure, the debtor passes on information that lets the mob rob his workplace, maybe leaves a door conveniently unlocked or even does the pilferage himself. Organized crime squeezes him like a sponge until they don't see anything left to bother with, and then he still gose on their bad list, and they will never loan him money again because they had to go to the trouble of squeezing.
If they can't get a good profit, THEN they get physical, but just like legitimate lenders, loansharks can run background checks and pre-inspect collateral, and they do. After all, it's far better to get the cash than vengance and a short envelope to pass uphill to the boss. Victims almost invariably have some way to give the loanshark at least 50% total profit.
"Getting closer to back on topic, "the mafia gives better rates" is the point. Organized crime still makes lots of money from illegal gambling, because they pay out 80% or better, and State lotteries pay only about 50% on average. Of course lots of Americans will work exceptionally hard for less chance of moving up with the company than in Canada (and parts of Western Europe, which the earlier poster didn't mention). Of course, the USA is where a company can offer people a chance to take a serious drop in salary to join management and get volunteers. Of course some companies can avoid union problems by co-opting employees to become pseudo-management. The same people who go along with all this are the ones who don't see how stupid state lotteries are. They're also the ones who could have saved enough for retirement, but never got around to it, etc.
Re:Engineers not the only ones... (Score:4, Interesting)
While I'm not one of the best or brightest, there are many who are among the best and brightest who simply don't want to deal with it.
A good friend of mine who is a brilliant engineer, worked for Lockheed Martin for two decades and had his own consulting company since '97, decided last winter that it's not worth living here anymore and that he'd have better fortunes elsewhere.
He's thriving in the Phillipines right now, doing productive work that, in his own words, "isn't constricted by the viewpoints of the many and narrow combined." Half a dozen (out of twenty) of his employees went with him. Can't say I blame them.
SB
Re:Engineers not the only ones... (Score:2)
Re:Engineers not the only ones... (Score:2)
Net worth is a meaningless measure (Score:3, Interesting)
The only relevant statistic is how much we earn per hour (ie, productivity), and yes, we beat Canada, Europe, Japan, etc. The fact that we choose to work more and spend more on average is not a public policy issue. If someone is using "net worth" in a political debate, they are probably full of it, and in almo
Re:Net worth is a meaningless measure (Score:4, Interesting)
I would rather make half a mill each year. If I'm in a position where I make that much, chances are I have a nice pension and health insurance. Even if I have no savings, I can easily save thousands of dollars in future years if the $#!t hit the fan one year. I also probably have an incredible education, resume, job experience, credit, capital, and network to rely on. I could easily get a loan or sell some posessions if I really had to.
If I'm making $20,000 a year, or $5 an hour working full time, $10 part time, I might manage to save $1,000 over the course of a year. One trip to the emergency room eats that right up. I probably don't have health insurance nor any kind of pension. Chances are most of my friends and family are making the same money I am. If I run into any kind of financial emergency, I'm pretty much SOL.
After thinking it over, I'd rather be the person making 0.5 mill a year.
A more realistic example (Score:4, Insightful)
The low net worths of Americans indicates that we aren't saving enough, not that we are getting paid less than our fair share, which the OP tried to imply. Almost every time variations of this statistic are cited, this same illogical mistake is made.
Re:Engineers not the only ones... (Score:2, Insightful)
It might be Trickle-down Economics, but it's a firehose going back up.
What I find even more interesting is that so few people are bothered by this information. With all the technological developments of the last XX years, people still have to work harder than before? What is the point of the technology, then? If the PDA means I only have to work 37 hours a week instead of 40 to get my requried work done, that would s
Re:Engineers not the only ones... (Score:2)
Hmm... I wonder if this takes into account the generally higher 'welfare-stateness' of Canada. It would be interesting to see the same statistics conducted with the lowest tax brackets from both countries dropped (or some other measure that lets you reasonably predict that certain pe
Yes, They are fucking us to death (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yes, They THE BANKS are fucking us to death (Score:2)
It's not the workload, it's the monitary policy. Over the last 90 years the value of money has slowly been watered down putting a bigger and bigger squeese on middle income families. For example, in 1920 gold was about $25 per ounce, but today it is about $620. One would think that the price of gold would go down because it isn't even demanded or accepted in stores as a currency anymore, but the fact that it's gone up really means that over that amount of time the dollar has lost at least 95% of it's va
Re:Yes, They THE BANKS are fucking us to death (Score:2)
It's not going to be worth shit to John Q. Looter if/when everything goes to hell.
Spend that money on arms, munition, liquor and tobacco. The latter two being the much, much more likely future form of currency.
Point is.... (Score:3, Informative)
Nothing new here (Score:5, Interesting)
What this may be showing is the trend towards smaller companies (already noted elsewhere) or larger companies using smaller, self-organized teams rather than groups of hundreds or thousands who have several layers of management for one project. My current project team has less than twenty staff assigned, including support and management -- and it's the largest team I've worked on since 1979.
The real world (Score:4, Insightful)
It is not that the engineer is not intellegent, but in fact is he/she is over worked, dealing with multiple projects, with impossible dead lines. Many contractors are able to get away with sub-par work, because the job for the engineer is very stressed. Many engineers don't understand what they are engineering, since mechanical engineering is a wide field. They use rule of thumb. And when the contractor uses rule of thumb, we have a recipe for disaster.
More engineers need to go in to the real world, as a helper, or technician. Understand the way things are done, and then become the leadership that a company and a project needs.
Hello William Shatner (Score:5, Funny)
Wearing multiple hats. (Score:5, Interesting)
But it's not about being able to do everyone's job! It's about being able to understand what other departments are doing, knowing enough of their job so you can work with them efficiently. Not only is it important in a communication perspective, but it's priceless in the troubleshooting and design phases of product development.
Bottom line is, every employee of value--anywhere--needs to be able to step back and see the bigger picture of the corporation/foundation/office/whatever. Technical specialists that can't see beyond their single language, single router, server, whatever are a dime a dozen. It's great to have someone with extreme expertise, but they are also easily replaceable.
Only 40% with a Bachelor's? (Score:4, Insightful)
Is this article talking about real engineering or does it simply accept that anything with the word engineering in the title falls under engineering (eg. Refuse Disposal Engineer)?
Re:Only 40% with a Bachelor's? (Score:2)
From TFA:
"From taking on supervisory and budgetary functions to learning new skill sets, to broadening their responsibilities, today's design engineers are doing far more than they ever had before."
In other circles, that's generally defined as "career progression".
It's k
Re:Only 40% with a Bachelor's? (Score:2)
At my co-op job, we had a biologist, among others. Also, we had a about a quarter to a third of the people with associate's degrees + a lot of experience. Also, our drafters were considered "engineers" though their actual design work may have been minimal.
Re:Only 40% with a Bachelor's? (Score:2)
Re:Only 40% with a Bachelor's? (Score:3, Insightful)
No, it implies that 50-60% of "engineers" don't have a Bachelor's degree in engineering. The article is unclear, but the following possibilities exist:
The engineering singularity. (Score:5, Funny)
A book I read once said (Score:2)
When I hit college, I think I experienced this more keenly, as the first two years were broad classes (what I considered BS classes, public school was all BS but then I wasn't paying for it directly either)
Re:A book I read once said (Score:4, Insightful)
Graduate Degrees? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Graduate Degrees? (Score:2, Interesting)
Not just engineers (Score:4, Interesting)
I've found this to be true for almost any somewhat technical field, nowadays. If you have the skills, they will (ab)use you.
I work at a local paper - my primary job description is "Graphic Artist", but I also work with the page layout, do organizational tasks, web development, troubleshooting, sales on rare occasions, and even photography.
All this for only $10 an hour. I don't necessarily mind, but I get overwhelmed quite often, thanks to deadlines (we don't usually have deadlines of a week or so - more like a day, a few hours, or even minutes, on a number of occasions)
It's a puzzlement (Score:3, Insightful)
Other than another demonstration that people writing for magazines think "time immemorial" is anything before about 1994, I don't see much surprising here.
Re:It's a puzzlement (Score:3, Informative)
It seems that the overwhelming tone of the slashdot story as well as most of the comments consider the idea of engineers doing management do be a bad thing. This I fail to understand. I'm only 26 and have only been in the professional workforce (i.e. not a job as a service tech or some crap) for about 5 years. One thing I have learned (and it's a lesson I take from my dad as well) is that it is in one's best interest to do some "management" work.
Likewise, managers need to get their hands dirty on a regu
The World IS Changing (Score:5, Insightful)
I started in the '80's at a large Canadian aerospace company which a couple of years after I arrived got sold (er, given) to a family of the Canadian Establishment. They promply thereafter exported all the materials R&D work I was doing to Ireland. Then they started playing games trying to lock me into a pension plan, to which I replied screw this, I'll do my own. That didn't go down well.
When I left to become a (much better paid) contractor, my boss took me into his office and told me, "You know, I can't approve of this." Apparently, what bosses really mean when they say they want you to show initiative is "Do what I want even if I don't know what it is, oh and make my life easier and make me look good." Well I know thats true, I'm a boss now too.
The real issue as I have come to know it is not that people are being multitasked like crazy (they are), but that its not easy enough to take that kind of experience and translate it into a startup of your own. Companies want their people to act and think like entrepeneurs, but they don't actually want them to become one, and the governments IMHO help them out with that.
When do we...... (Score:2, Insightful)
Most Managers have to be teachs to... (Score:3, Interesting)
I can honestly say that most engineers that come out of schools today are pretty poorly prepared for the work environment. Of the 4 engineers I have working for me now, all of them came out of school not knowing how to write a report, or do autocad. It generally takes me at least one year for me and the office manager to take some one raw out of school, and make them billable.
During that first year I have to be an autocad instructor, an English teacher, and hope they don't move on during the year.
Right now at work I am dealing with an engineer whom has a master's degree specializing in water resources, and yet I took 2 hours trying to explain to her how to do basic rational method hydrology.
If I had one request for engineering school, it would be make the students take at least 2 autocad courses. The first course should be a basic course for all engineering disciplines, and then an advanced course dealing with the software that each discipline typically has to use. Teach civils Autodesk land development desktop, teach mechanicals autodesk inventor, ect... I hate the fact that most took a basic course their freshman year, and never even touched autocad during the rest of their time at school.
--C. Alan Whitten
California RCE 63332
Re:Most Managers have to be teachs to... (Score:3, Insightful)
Universities are not vocational schools.
Re:Most Managers have to be teachs to... (Score:3, Interesting)
now if your design is truly 2d, then autocad is a good tool, but most useful things are not 2d.
Re:Most Managers have to be teachs to... (Score:2)
In my 25 years of experience in engineering, design and drafting (mostly for process plant facilities) it has always been the civil engineers that knew how to make good drawings and sketches by hand. Now you're telling me that the civil engineering students don't even bother to become proficient at CAD?
Perhaps this is because they realize that they risk getting pigeo
Re:Most Managers have to be teachs to... (Score:3, Informative)
It would be pointless to teach all engineering disciplines AutoCad, because disciplines such as electrical engineering and computer engineering will never use it.
I can confirm this trend (Score:2, Funny)
The water is rising... (Score:4, Interesting)
After the bubble broke and a lot of management thought they could save money by going over-shoring[1], management knew they still had to find some warm bodies locally. So they added water to the equation and all of the boats would rise. Added water as in effort poured into the body of water. You will generally find people who have director and VP in their titles (and not with seven or eight people in the company) doing hands-on. Directors generally have to be power users of Excel and Access. VPs aren't required to be quite as expensive, tool-wise.
The bottom line of this is the higher the leven of people a company has writing code, the smaller the number of people they have to hire, even if you have enough chimps sitting at enough keyboards.
____________________________________
[1] I've learned by experience, off-shoring is good if you aren't ever going to be managing the [source] code once you get it back. The quality code is generally illegable to anyone except to those who wrote it. It reminds me of the people who wrote code, then passed what they had thru file editors and changed COBOL variable names from "ADD CUSTOMER-WEEKLY-SALES TO CUSTOMER-CURRENT-TOTAL-SALES". to "ADD a3rafas TO awdfasdva-afws-Tasdffgas". i.e., obfuscated code guaranteeing job security. No, it's not apocryphal. I encountered this numerous times with my high school and college clients 20-25 years ago and writing the code to parse the variables proved to be quite a handy tool.
It happens because we want it... (Score:2, Insightful)
Calling the PHB's bluff (Score:2)
Joe Engineer, Engineer: That won't work, because [insert perfectly good analysis here]
PHB: (Irate.) Why are you always rejecting my ideas? You're such a nay-sayer! You could never do my job!
Joe P. Eng, Engineer:
Upper management: Hmm, that might not be a bad idea.
Joe P. Eng, Manager of [department]:
Poor Guys at $73k/yr (Score:3, Insightful)
When you're making over $0.50/minute isn't it reasonable to expect some larger responsibility and decision making ability?
Lower quality (Score:3, Interesting)
De-commoditising engineering (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:De-commoditising engineering (Score:2)
Yes, but people aren't getting paid any more for their added efforts. That was the whole promise of The WTO, NAFTA, etc. It's supposed to be more "effecient" to outsource jobs, meaning higher incomes and cheaper products all-around, not more work for less money.
Re:De-commoditising engineering (Score:3, Insightful)
We are
Re:De-commoditising engineering (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:De-commoditising engineering (Score:2)
Nonsense (Score:2)
All that means is eventually there will be lots more higher-quality engineers on the playing field, churning out many more high-quality goods and services that the consumer will benefit from.
Re:De-commoditising engineering (Score:2)
Re:De-commoditising engineering (Score:2)
In my 23 years workexperience, I have never taken a job that require you to work more than 40 hours/week. Life is too short to be wasted at work.
Re:Posted under 'IT'?? (Score:3, Funny)
Who do you call when your PC or workstation craps out? Who do you call when your measurements database is shitting and you don't know why?
I call IT and a DBA respectively. Then, if someone shits on the floor, I call a janitor.
You call IT. And we fix your problem, regardless of the fact that you're generally snotty, unappreciative, and antisocial. And you still look down on us.
Bullshit. I don't know you, and so long as the PCs get replaced, I don't worry or look down my nose.
Well, from one "IT" pers
Re:Posted under 'IT'?? (Score:2)
Re:Posted under 'IT'?? (Score:2, Troll)
Hypocrisy abounds on /. (Score:2)
You mean, like referring to IT workers as the "clerks of the data industry"?
I've been on all sides of those train tracks and now I manage people like Bing Tsher every day. He's not as much as he thinks he is.
If my boss were like the dweebs that you guys work for, he could replace you engineers just as easily as any IT "clerk".
Next, you stuck up fools will be locked in an insult contest between Mechanical engineers and Civil Engineers. What a joke. All of you are ju
Re:Hypocrisy abounds on /. (Score:2)
Re:Hypocrisy abounds on /. (Score:2)
And yeah, managers are replaceable. I could lose this job and bump back down to a network engineer, programmer or tester.
Take a second to blink. Bam. Somewhere out there a CEO is being replaced, too. That's not going to be so uncommon when those offshored workers start plying their engineering and IT knowledge to form their own companies. Low paid workers + low paid managers + low paid CEOs = bye bye American competitor.
Oh yeah and I can't wait to
Re:Hypocrisy abounds on /. (Score:2)
If the robot thing happens, though, let me be the first to note that that would be fucking awesome, and if anyone wants help working on that, I'm soo in.
That's simple (Score:2)
This contributes seriously to health problems which libertarians like you would hope the worker pays for and not you.
Eventually this work ethic costs you your family and your marriage simply because you can't be home to see your wife and kids. Oh wait, in your universe, that doesn't happen. Ok, anyways.
Re:That's simple (Score:2)
They will always pay for their health care, whether it taken out of their money by them, their employer, or their government. There is something to be said for employers getting bulk discounts, but there are also advantages for allowing workers to choose for themselves. It is best to let people choose amongst the
Re:That's simple (Score:2)
IOW it's a health hazard. But then health hazards are libertarians' ambrosia. Which is why libertarians raise hell whenever the evil Kommunist Gub'mintmonster passes laws to prevent profit hungry businesses from poisoning the streams and wells that you libertarians drink from.
You're not Libertarians... you're corporate statists. You prefer a nation governed by and for the corporate elite. I've talked to
Re:That's simple (Score:3, Insightful)
Which suggests that neither you, nor they, actually know what the word means.
Those aren't libertarians (difference in capitalization noted), they're Republicans without the Jesus gene.
Re:Are people complaining about this?!?!? (Score:2)
Re:Wait up, you have a job in this economy? (Score:5, Insightful)
You seem to have pigeon holed yourself ... (Score:2)
A degree does not entitle you to a job, you also need marketable skills. You mention 15 years unix experienc