NH Man Arrested for Videotaping Police 1232
macinrack writes to mention a story about a New Hampshire man who was arrested for videotaping police on his doorstep, using a fairly standard security camera system. He was officially charged with 'two felony counts of violating state eavesdropping and wiretap law by using an electronic device.' From the article: "The security cameras record sound and audio directly to a videocassette recorder inside the house, and the Gannons posted warnings about the system, Janet Gannon said. On Tuesday night, Michael Gannon brought a videocassette to the police department, and asked to speak with someone in 'public relations,' his wife said and police reported. Gannon wanted to lodge a complaint against Karlis, who had come to the family's house while investigating their sons, Janet Gannon said. She said Karlis showed up late at night, was rude, and refused to leave when they asked him."
sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Our rights online? (Score:0, Insightful)
This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Insightful)
By the way, isn't New Hampshire supposed to be the state all the Libertarians are moving to, and wasn't it chosen because it was the most Free to begin with? Jeez, if this kind of thing can happen there the rest of us are really screwed!
Somebody seriously f'd up. (Score:4, Insightful)
Time for a new state motto. (Score:2, Insightful)
That sad part is (Score:5, Insightful)
Problem is, most people don't see these stories for what they truly generally are. Stupidity. You know, there are stupid cops and even stupid judges. Most of the time, when cases like this make it out into the world people think that the system is to blame. Normally thats not the case, the stupidity of the officers involved are to blame. Well, either that or some queer powertrip, which is far too common with law enforcement aswell.
In the end, this will all get thrown out in court. Thing is, nobody knows at what cost it will be to the guy involved. Thats truly the greatest flaw of all in the system. IMHO, there should almost be a pre-court judge that can take a look at cases in advance as a checksum against stupidity, and throw them out right away if they are as dumb as this one. I suppose that would be rife for abusing too though.
D'oh. (Score:3, Insightful)
I guess I assumed there wouldn't have been any issue with a sign.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Insightful)
Unbelievable (Score:2, Insightful)
So much for... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Ask the President (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't you mean, illegally?
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:1, Insightful)
In many ways, this is worse than a beating by police. A beating can be said to be because of "the heat of the moment". In this example, the police simply think they get to make their own laws.
Heads must roll, from the top down, and a penalty MUST be levied that will wound the police force for years to come. THIS is not remotely tolorable.
Police State USA, here we come. (Score:2, Insightful)
Sad but true.
Civil Liberties (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously this means that his civil liberties can be trampled on.
Re:Ugh! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Unlawful to record your home? (Score:5, Insightful)
I beleive the statute you are quoting more concerns you placing a camera in the ladies room of your restauruant and then defending it as it was on your property. Front stoop is private property, but not a private space.
Re:Unlawful to record your home? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Unlawful to record your home? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the camera was on the man's property, then you couldn't hardly say that the installation was unauthorized.
you CAN have a judge throw out a case.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Albuquerque doing this too (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, not all cops are bad. Once in college I got a flat tire while driving an unregistered uninsured hippy painted VW bus carrying a bag of weed. A nice officer stopped (in the rain no less) and helped me change the tire without even checking my license or registration, let alone whether a hippy painted VW bus might have contraband onboard.
On the third hand (yes, it's a Larry Niven reference) I've seen cops beat my friends for trying to feed homeless people on the street in San Francisco. Then they poured our soup down the drain and poured bleach over our bagels right in front of about 100 homeless folks.
So YMMV where police are concerned, some are cool, some are total dicks.
Re:Will the ACLU take this case? (Score:5, Insightful)
Huh? Free press? A guy video tapes somebody on his doorstep and suddenly that qualifies him as a member of the press?
Regardless of whether he's press or not, I think you need to read the Bill of Rights again because you obviously don't know what it says. You don't have to be a literalist to understand that this doesn't mean what you think it means:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
I don't see how this case has anything whatsoever to do with congress abridging freedom of the press. This is about a guy who got arrested for superfluous reasons. It's obviously one of those situations where the cops got annoyed, so they looked for whatever law they could find that they might be able to charge him against. It should be looked at in that light; trying to turn it into some weird and inappropriate first amendment discussion is not going to help anyone.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Insightful)
What this is is a perfect example of the opposite. The judge needs to award costs, and a little extra for the trouble and tell the cops to stop acting like idiots. End of case. No lasting dmage has been done to anyone, as long as the law gets laid down in a blunt manner nothing else is needed.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Insightful)
Funding for the police comes from the taxpayers. Any fine paid by the police force is ultimately paid by the taxpayers.
The police are ostensibly there to protect the public. Financial hardship would leave them less able to perform that task. Longer response times to emergency calls, crimes going uninvestigated, because the police force cannot afford enough employees to do their job properly.
Perhaps more appropriate would be a civil suit filed personally against those responsible for the events, rather than the police force as a whole. The family can still be compensated through this, and it will (hopefully) act as a deterrent against others in positions of power that might consider abusing said power.
Re:sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
Now something definitely seems wrong with this police department since the charges are nonsense and it seems like, at that point, they are harassing the citizen. But they do mention the guy's kid is being investigated for some crimes, the guy hasn't been cooperative in the past, and has been verbally abusive. And my completely inappropriate "judge a book by its cover" sensors tell me that by looking at the guy's picture in the article, he rather looks like an uncooperative, verbally abusive redneck. So I suspect that while these charges against him are completely wrong and inappropriate, I get the distinct feeling this isn't some average Joe that's being randomly victimized for no reason by the police. I think there's more to the story here than we know.
Re:Not All Powerful (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Ugh! (Score:5, Insightful)
No kiddin'. (Score:5, Insightful)
Hard to argue with Gannon.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Insightful)
What do you think the point is of passing huge numbers of unenforceable laws? The point is that the police can pick anyone to be a criminal by selective enforcement.
Re:whoa whoa whoa there (Score:5, Insightful)
How can it be wiretapping if there's no wire being tapped?
How can the patriot act be called what it is? Why is it that if I wear a pistol in a holster on my belt, in plain view, covered with blinking LEDs, while wearing a t-shirt that reads "I carry a firearm" I'll be arrested for "carrying a concealed weapon." The names of laws often have nothing to do with what the laws say.
Why is it a crime to monitor what our public servants are doing?
Because the police are criminals and they follow the orders of the corrupt politicians who pass these laws. I know quite a few cops, but I've never known one who did not flaunt the law and brag about how they don't have to follow it since they are cops. I've never known one who does not have a "funny" story about how they abused their power for their own personal ends. If you haven't noticed this by now, you haven't been paying attention.
Re: Express Consent? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Slow news day (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually, only a handful of states require notification of all involved parties. Most only require one-party notification.
http://www.callcorder.com/phone-recording-law-ame
Re:Ugh! (Score:3, Insightful)
oversight (Score:4, Insightful)
Quite true. I have long suspected that the single most effective defense against most abuses of power is a camera (at least in civilized places where public opinion matters). Without video footage, no one will believe the abuses really happened.
Ubiquitous surveilance is often seen as a tool of big brother, but it can also be a tool against oppression as well. Imagine a society in which many people wear a webcam attached to an ipod-like device with a ring buffer storing everything the wearer sees. Then imagine you are a corrupt police officer who likes to intimidate and/or abuse certain people. Would it give you pause if you knew your actions were quite likely to show up on the news the next day?
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Insightful)
Quite true, but in this case he didn't let the policeman in his house. The police officer stuck his foot in the doorway and wouldn't leave when specifically told to by the owner. Unfortunately, it is not too uncommon for police to pull crap like this. But you are definitely right. Since there are some cops who get off on bringing people in, you should never say anything, and be damn careful what you say even if you are the one reporting the crime.
Re:sigh (Score:2, Insightful)
I've never had such experienced. They are pricks to you by default.
Re:sigh (Score:2, Insightful)
the problem, of course, is that the definition of that term is extremely broad, and people in power are wont to define it to suit themselves and their peers.
And my completely inappropriate "judge a book by its cover" sensors tell me that by looking at the guy's picture in the article, he rather looks like an uncooperative, verbally abusive redneck.
you're right - about the completely inappropriate part.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
yeah, ok. now which way to canada?
PS, in the article the police try and argue what happened at his house, if he warned them about the camera and if he had posted signs about the camera.
now if there's video tape of those events and facts, just review that. no argument. no problem. case closed.
I'd like to see if the cops are on film warning motorists that they are on camera every time they get pulled over. now compare.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:2, Insightful)
Umm why would you EVER kill a smoking ban? Don't you know that smoking will kill you [cnn.com], and negatively impact EVERYONE who inhales your cigarette smoke? How can you be so daft?
Enjoy New Hampshire. Don't ever leave. Then we'll never have to meet.
smoking kills everyone (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't say anything to the police period. Anything you need to say to them can be said in court. Granted if you have a lawyer, and are wanting to strike a bargain it may be in your interest to talk, but always do so with a lawyer present.
Just to repeat the police are not your friends.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Unlawful to record your home? (Score:2, Insightful)
Not only that, but can the outside of someone's property really be considered a private place? Private property, maybe.. but "private place" implies an expectation of privacy. Can you have an expectation of privacy if you are outdoors where anyone can see/hear you?
Re:sigh (Score:2, Insightful)
I have found that a good strategy to avoid being hassled by cops is to NOT be a dirtbag. Works on rent-a-cops, too.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Insightful)
If this is part of their training then the legislature should order the training be changed.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:1, Insightful)
because damn it, people ahve a right to have a habit that kills people who don't want to participate in it.
f'n moron.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes - in your lilly-white gated community, if you tip your fedora to the cops and never question the discrimination de jur, you will probably not have your flat flattened. but if you happen to embrace an unpopular economic theory; stand by to be victimized.
By the way - please continue to enjoy the freedoms which people such as yourself have not and could never have defended, advanced, or invented. The ignorant are blessed with the same liberties as those by whose toil, vigilance, perception, and sacrifice - all personal freedoms are maintained.
It doesn't really matter if there is more to the story or not - the important fact is that the police are trying to set a precedent that one cannot - in one's own home - operate a camera for the purpose of defending one's self against aggressors. If we allow civil rights to be eroded for others - the erosion will quickly spread to one's own front door.
AIK
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
There may be, and I agree with you about the whole "treat your neighbor as you would be treated" thingy... BUT...
The fact remains that he was arrested at the police station where he voluntarily went, with video tape in tow. They didn't arrest him until they found out they had been taped by a security camera. Now, apparently security cameras are legal for businesses, for govn't installations, but according to the police department, are now illegal for securing your own home without the consent of the person that you don't want at your house.
Further, the police were there without a warrant, which means they are unallowed to sieze anything, including the video tape. Beyond that, although I suppose the man's front stoop is considered private property, you have no right outside of your own home to not be videotaped, as is apparent in any store/stadium/street/elevator/etc. as well as upheld by courts.
Now, I have to imagine that this will be crushed by the courts - I cannot believe that you cannot tape your own premises for safety - or WHATEVER - reason. Should you be allowed to, I am having flashbacks to reading 1984 with our hero hiding from the eyes of the ever-on cameras in his home.
Tin-foil hat aside, to your idea of whether or not this person was a PITA to the police at his house that night, well... it's apparently all on tape ;)
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ugh! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
I truly was given a speeding ticket at 3am on a Tuesday morning for driving 1MPH over the speed limit, cop was sitting right at the reduced speed sign where the speed dropped from 55MPH to 25MPH, and there was a light that was red immediately after the sign he was at. I was the only car on the road. I tried being nice.. he acted like a prick to me about it.
Cops are pricks.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that in our society we have arbitrarily elevated cops to the status of "real" heroes because they "risk their lives everyday for the 'safety' of the community." A few months ago a metro officer was killed in the line of duty and there was this huge procession and they made a big deal about it.
What no one bothered to mention is that it had been nearly 15 years since a metro cop had been killed. More people are killed/maimed/whatever working on construction sites here. Way more. The fact is that we've put these servants, and that's what they are, on a pedestal when it's a job they should serve with humility and compassion for their community.
For everyone one "real" criminal they haul in I wonder how many nothing-but-revenue tickets they pass out? There's nothing "heroic" or "honorable" about hiding your car in a poorly marked 25 zone that some jackass decided should take up a block in the middle of 45s and ticket people there. Which is another problem. Popular media shows cops fighting dangerous "real" criminals most of the time. Even the show Cops doesn't show some guy sitting in a car, "This is Unit 328, hiding here at the bottom of a hill where people generally go faster than normal. We've made over $3,000 on tickets today and we've still got a few hours to go. One day and I've almost made my entire week's quota."
And EVERY cop is dirty. Every single one of them. Either by their actions or their omissions. Ask ANY cop whether or not he/she knows a dirty cop. They'll say yes. After that, ask that person what he/she has done about said dirty cop. Nothing. A big fat nothing. And what's worse is when SOMETHING does happen they always get some ridiculous slap on the wrist. If I worked for a company that got sued for $50,000 and LOST on account of something I did, I'd be gone. I'd be fired. Not here. They get a week of PAID suspension and they're back on the street supposedly learning their lesson.
THey've become an elevated class and just like all elevated classes, they act the part. Like pricks. Total pricks. If they accuse you, regardless of what procedures they seem to ignore, you're guilty and that's that. Add that to the fact that there's no fucking accountability for lower court judges in this country, it's just easier to plea out even if you haven't done anything wrong because they make it expensive to fight.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm willing to believe that 99% of cops treat their co-workers different than they do civilians.
Its obvious he was obstructing Justice and to have a son on weapons charges will bring many police into the picture.
So, by your definition, refusing to allow a police officer into your home is obstruction of justice? That's a reason to knock on a door at 11:30pm, stick your foot in the door and refuse to leave? If he wasn't a cop, I would have either forcably removed him or shot him. The attitude of "well, he didn't cooperate, so he deserves what he gets" is rather commonplace amoungst cops. Our "cooperation" ends where our legal rights begin. Most cops are assholes, simply because they believe that our rights aren't as important as thier job.
SealBeater
Re:sigh (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:3, Insightful)
It isn't wise to dispute a blanket statement by making another blanket statement. Sure, the job does tend to attract people who want power over others, and the demand for police (it's a dangerous job with terrible pay) will likely keep the barrier for entry fairly low. However, I've met just as many policemen who took the job for far more noble or practical reasons. The truth is that any encounter with a policeman is a roll of the dice, and given the potential result of any such encounter, many people choose to avoid them. This is obviously particularly true of those from backgrounds where police experiences are typically bad: racial minorities, low income individuals, etc.
What likely happened here is as you'd expect. Some idiot police harrassed the defendant and when they discovered there was a tape of their behavior (most people ignore security stickers and such unless they're looking for that sort of thing) they decided the best course of action was to lean on the guy in hopes that he'd either be cowed into not reporting them or that they'd luck out and get the original tape as "evidence" in the short time before their case was thrown out as baseless.
A friend's father found himself in a similar situation a few years back. He was riding his bicycle through a park in a fairly nasty city and a policecar sped by and clipped him, knocking him off his bike, injuring him, and wrecking the bike. The bicyclist got up and made a rude gesture as the police car sped off and the police car stopped, returned, and the policeman arrested the bicyclist for "obstructing justice." The case was thrown out shortly afterwords, but as far as I know the policeman was never brought up on charges of a hit & run or anything like that.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do people think that "redneck" (or "hillbilly", or "white trash") is a socially acceptable term? Let's try substituting some other stuff.
"Looks like an uncooperative, verbally abusive nigger."
"Looks like an uncooperative, verbally abuse spic."
"Looks like an uncooperative, verbally abusive gook."
It's about the same class of word. Please, have a little respect, especially for someone you obviously don't know personally. Judging someone by their appearance is bad enough. Using racist language on top of it makes you look like the fool.
--saint
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
From artcile, it looks like the Nahsua police department has no problem breaking the law. The article clearly says the policman did not have warrant yet and refused to leave the property when asked. This is all too typical, the police see the need to vigourously enforce this wiretapping law but will NEVER charge the officer with trepass even though there's video tape envidence of the crime. If the police are so concerned about illegal wiretapping, I suggest they get some warrents to search the local at&t switch room and see what they find.
There was no reasonable expectation of privacy (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, Canada! (Score:5, Insightful)
Please try to resist being smug. As much as I find a lot of what the US gov't does disagreeable it really irritates me when fellow Canadians brag about how much better our lot in life is in comparison with our southern neighbours. I thought we were supposed to be humble folk, but it seems some of us have developed a superiority complex. Historically Canadians have had trouble "blowing their own horn" so we should be sure to note our accomplishments. However, if you must brag, please be realistic. Canada has its share of challenges too:
* A recent behavioural study of major international cities on "politeness" placed Toronto fairly high on the list (Montreal, the other Canadian city did not do as well but did alright). Guess which city beat both? NEW YORK CITY. That's right. Most notably, New Yorkers were significantly more likely to open a door for a stranger in a public place. I guess that means "doors are opened" in NYC
* There are places in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal where I most certainly would NOT leave my doors unlocked. OTOH, I don't think people ever use their locks in most of Montana, North and South Dakota, Maine, etc. I know this isn't apples-to-apples comparison but most Canadians live in a major city as is the case in the US (I grew up in rural Canada and yes doors are still open there too). The point is that Canada isn't THAT much different in this regard
* I've witnessed RCMP officers and city police be somewhat less than polite in dealing with people too. Some of it has been widely publicised (Anyone remember the pepper-sprayed protester in Vancouver? And Prime Minister Cretien's cavalier response with the joke that he prefers his pepper on his dinner plate?). When the Hells Angels held a patch-over ceremony in Alberta a number of years ago, anyone who rode a Harley and was dressed the wrong way was badly harassed by the cops.
* Years ago when a Quebec separatist group kidnapped and later killed a politician our "beloved" Prime Minister invoked the "War Measures Act", which allowed for police to detain anyone without charges and suspended many other civil liberties. This was in effect nation-wide, even though the FLQ Crisis only presented a direct threat to savety in Quebec. RCMP in places far away from Quebec took advantage of the situation and we had "troublemakers" in small town Alberta held in custody for days without charges.
* Speaking of Quebec, this is a province that has "language police" that will fine you in your shop doesn't have French on it, or if some non-French language on your signage is too prominent.
* West of Ontario, it is illegal for farmers to sell most crops to anyone but the Canadian Wheat Board. Farmers who protested this by pubically deciding to sell their grain directly to someone else rather than through the wheat board had their doors kicked in and were dragged to jail--and had their trucks and grain seized. Sone farmer in Ontario does the EXACT SAME THING? Sure, that's OK--the act applies only to BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I could live with a government imposed monopoly, distasteful as it is, if it applied equally to all Canadians. As it is now this situation is a travesty.
* Well, I still live in Canada and I know that a lot of private parking spots are equipped with cameras here. In the past year or two there has been a dramatic increase in vandalism (mostly grafitti and car prowlings) and as a result more outdoor surveillance cameras are going up, and developers are putting out a lot more security guards in under-construction subdivisions as theft and vandalism increased there too.
OTOH Canada has a lot to be proud of too:
* Big, expensive and ineffective gun registry notwithstanding, there is WAY less gun violence in Canada than in the US
* Canadians ar
Re:sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:3, Insightful)
I was with you up until this line. Now mind you, I'm Canadian so things may run differently, but how is refusing to tell police what you know and/or not supplying information, without there being a court order, obstruction?
You have my curiousity piqued; where does obstruction of justice start, and an individual's rights end?
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:3, Insightful)
I am a reserve cop here in sunny CA. Yes, for those of you that aren't sure what that means-I am a volunteer cop. I don't get paid. I wear a uniform, I patrol on foot, I pull people over, I write tickets, and I call for backup.
Why do I do this? Because it is a public service a real way to be involved in the community.
I can tell you this, as well. Our Sheriff would hang a deputy by his toenails if he found out one of his men was pulling some of the stuff that has been described here. We have to smile and say 'sir' and 'maam' to the point where, literally, a line such as "Okay, sir, I am going to start pulling my trigger now, please duck" is not completely out of the question.
See what happens when YOU put on a uniform and are sent out alone to patrol a long highway on a Friday night, knowing you are at least 20 minutes alone after a call for help, even at insane speeds by your co-workers with the lights flashing. We put out lives on the line for the public, and rarely do we find people in the public who realize this.
Cops dont suck, we go after people who do suck. Get it? If we weren't there, those people who suck would be coming after you. Of course there are bad apples in uniform, but peace officers are being painted with a wide brush here. Are you winning to become a target for the betterment of you community? Do you have any idea what it feels like to bust into a house that you know is used for narcotics distribution, just wanting for the shotgun blast to come through the wall where your back is?
Try walking a mile in our shoes one day. Your perspective might change a little.
If you are nice to me, and if you don't look like you are trying to hide an open bottle of beer, and I don't see any evidence of drug use in your car, we're going to have a conversation. If you give me attitude (and this is a bad one here.. Give me attitude even if you have done nothing wrong, and I'll keep you at the side of the road for 45 minutes trying to figure out how many citations I can give you. My record was 10 and I only stopped because I got bored. The judge laughed at the guy when he showed up in court), or your record comes back that you are an unsafe driver, you might well get a ticket. However, you are just as likely to be able to drive away with 'a warning'.
Do I want power over other people? Hell no. I got involved after Sept. 11th. There was a need, and I stepped forward. What have YOU done?
Re:Private property? (Score:5, Insightful)
Since we all forgot that we are sovereign individuals, and not subjects of any
nation-state or government; since we all began to accept that the government
has some intrinsic authority which overrules our own sovereignty; since we
all began to believe that we answer to the government, instead of them
answering to us; since we all forgot that we are EXACTLY as free as we
CHOOSE to be; since we all forgot that we have as much freedom as we
choose to have and are willing to defend.
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, but if you read all of the statute, you'll read the part that says
I wonder... if you're standing in front of a surveilliance camera, on someone's front porch next to the street, and there are signs pointing out the camera... are you really justified in believing that the camera couldn't possibly be recording you?
Absolute power corrupts absolutely (Score:1, Insightful)
I don't think there is any question about this being abuse of power followed with an 'oh shit, we got caught - better try to intimidate/bulley the person that caught us and maybe it will all go away'.
The real sad thing is that in this case it's not just a single cop but apparently the entire police department or else we would have never seen this story. The cop would have been reprimanded, case closed.
It would be interesting to see just how many cameras are operated by this police department for the explicit use and subsequent disclosure of the recorded information at trial. It would also be interesting to see how many cases where brought to trial where surveilance footage was used to convivt the (real) bad guy.
I can't believe that anyone in their right mind can expect privacy in a public place with video cameras sprouting like mushrooms left and right. Furthermore, I can't see how anyone in their right mind could think that a homeowner recording what happens on HIS property is acting in an unlawful manner.
Count me in under the column of "thoroughly disgusted by this"!
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:5, Insightful)
Terrorist this, NSA spying that, the United States is the scariest place on Earth.
Re:sigh (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:1, Insightful)
Cops dont suck, we go after people who do suck. Get it? If we weren't there, those people who suck would be coming after you....
Are you willing to become a target for the betterment of you community?
Cops go after people who are in the community calling the ones they select criminals. EVERYONE IS GUILTY, they just haven't been caught by you yet, depending on your (power) mood.
When I see 6 cops skull stomping a drunk who was waiting for his cab, I don't believe you.
When I see cops extorting money from commuters claiming they are driving too fast, instead of busting the three crack houses on my street, I don't believe you.
When I see the brand new Expeditions with 2 cops cruising around, I no longer wonder why taxes are so high. I especially like the new boats they bought here, completely superfluous.
I have yet to meet a 'nice' cop, and that is probably because when I see cops, I get as far away from them as I safely can, it's hard to become victimized if you aren't around them.
I got involved after Sept. 11th. There was a need, and I stepped forward. What have YOU done?
What does a bunch of evil men flying planes into buildings have to do with people speeding or disrespecting officers in public? How did those events make recording a cop on duty a crime? Can you justify any of this? I don't see a need at all.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Every time someone whines about how cops get no "respect" I ask them what the "straight" cops do to earn it when the crooked ones lose it. A cop gets crooked and the "straight" ones are all over it to make sure that "one of their own" gets away with it.
Take for instance the recent HPD crime lab scandal in Houston. Years of perjury and tainted evidence, and when a defense attourney finally discovers that they've been lying on the stand about their DNA tests (and possibly ballistics and other tests as well) all the cops and prosecutors have NO idea that they've been lying all the time. They are SHOCKED by the fact that they've put away 100s of people on bogus evidence. They just thought they were always SO lucky that the number one suspect always came back as a match and everyone could go home early, right?
But hey, the good news is that now, after a year of an internal investigation (since the PD couldn't scrape together the pennies for an external audit) everything is hunky dory again and the HPD crime lab is ready to ride again.
The only DNA analyst fired in the Houston Police Department crime lab scandal got her job back Tuesday. [truthinjustice.org] Whooo-eee what's that STANK?!
Re:This is absurd on so many levels (Score:3, Insightful)
Citation, please? I call bullshit. Seatbelts are designed to prevent injury. In any accident severe enough for the seat belt to perform it is unlikely that controlling the vehicle is even possible. If it was about control, they'd mandate 4-point restraints instead of collarbone-snapping diagonal shoulder belts. You ever tried to steer with a broken collarbone? How about early seat belts, which were only lap belts? Were they designed to keep you in control of the vehicle after your skull bounces off the steering wheel?
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
I think what you're missing is that, without a search warrant, the police officer with his foot in the door is trespassing. Period.
Please have your warrant handy before attempting to search my home.
Please have your warrant handy before displacing my wife and children from our home.
It's simple, really.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a shame. You've wasted 18 years of your life and you still don't know how to properly and legally execute a search on someone's private property.
Modded up? (Score:4, Insightful)
Okay we have a name tag Sealbeater, sitting on a spam domain filled with google adwords links, and the sig is, wait for it... Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!! I'd be a bit more cautious about throwing around accusations of assholery if I was you, my son. Glass houses and all that. Thankfully I am not, so although its something of a gaffe to feed the trolls, I am feeling generous today.
The poster in question was referring to that particular case, not to broadly general rules of conduct. Also you refer to "cops" and "civilians" as being something different, which leads me to believe that you have a view of the police as being some sort of military force out to dominate your world with an iron fist. Inferiority complex much? Of course, as you so eloquently put it, survival of the fittest, and you do have the fucking guns, apparently, so the police are just a rival militia to you.
I seriously doubt this will make a dent, Davey Crockett, but for the benefit of the other readers, let me tell you how it is. The police have to deal with serious assholes all the time. They wake up at 2am for their shift at 3am, and straight away they are dealing with halitosis laden drug dealers, drug addicts, wife beaters, child molesters, thieves, career criminals, fraudsters, you name it, they come eyeball to red glazed eyeball with them. People that you would literally cross the entire town, never mind the road, to avoid, people for whom prison is a holiday home, or in more extreme cases a brothel. And here's the kicker; the police have to play by the rules. If they don't, the lawyer will let said scumbag roam free, and the last thing you want is Johnny biker boy cruising the streets looking for your home address with a hard-on.
Of course the nasty types don't feel any such need to play by the rules, so let me ask you. After ten years of waking up at 2am and not going into a nice office to look at the HR lady's shapely backside, but wondering if you will make it home in more or less one piece, what kind of person will you be? I'll tell you, it depends on the person. Some police officers deal with it well, some have outlets for their frustrations, some have family that support and understand them. Some don't or just don't deal with it well in any case. So that's where good cops go bad; avarice, stress, fear, or just plain frustration at seeing the same shitheads walking out after two years and doing the same things to pretty much the same people. Before you start bawling like the survivalist microbe that you are about the bad, naughty cops, you walk a mile in their shoes. Or even better, walk ten years in their shoes.
Yes, there are bad police officers, and they need to be taken out of circulation just like the career criminals. But throwing out the baby with the bathwater is the worst idea anyone could ever have. Be polite to the police, and generally they will respond in kind. This has been my experience in every case.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmm. Lets go over the run down of bullshit things cops have done to just me (35 year old male)
Got pulled over once when a cop was behind me and he said after I ask why he pulled me over, "you where driving to carefully." NO KIDDING a cop car behind me and I was driving carefully. Then there was the time my girlfriend and I where driving in a car and I was pulled over and when I ask why he said he want to count the occupants of the car. So I counted for him, 2. Then there was the time I witnessed a cop car run a red light with none of its lights on and smash into a another car. The cops kept insisting that I did not see what I said I saw. Even to the extent that they tried to put words in my mouth through intimidation. That time was so bad I called a family friend of mine who is an FBI agent (lawyer would have charged me) to come to help me.
Then there was this Guy on his porch in the Bronx that got shot for reaching for his wallet. 41 times I believe. (Diallo's case)
There was a case in Devner of raiding the wrong house and killing the dude inside and then LIEING and puting a gun in the dudes hands. HOLLY SHIT.
http://v6.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~4330~1
Now how about the cop in San Bernardino California that shot the air force security officer IN COLD BLOOD. http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,86767
Let me put it simple. You are a cop, (probably don't even know where the term cop comes from I bet, quick Google it) Have you ever heard of the Blackstone ratio? LOOK IT UP.
Here is a great post to a editorial comment on NYC police brutality.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F
Or maybe police cover there own asses.
http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14542prs20040128.h
I mean Google searching for police abuse returns 70 million hits. Teen sex only returns 72 million. Seems that maybe Police abuse could be nearly as pervasive as teen sex. WTF?
If there is any doubt as to whether to shoot or not shoot. You DON'T SHOOT. I would rather the police offer was shot then he shoots an innocent person. Sorry but that is the job YOU CHOSE. The civilian has more of a right to survive a misunderstanding then you. If you are unsure of the outcome of the situation you withdrawl rather then risk an innocent life.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
You must live in suburbia. I used to think the same thing when I lived in a nice quiet suburb. Now that I live in the city, amongst a predominatly minority population, I can see that that isn't the case. Being hassled by cops is a part of life now. For example I was accused of stealing a car by a cop while I was walking home from work one day. On another occasion a friend of mine was pulled over while driving home from my apartment at 2AM for having something hanging in his rearview mirror. The cops attempted to search his car, but being an intelligent citizen he refused because they had no probable cause, and the cop was rude as hell telling my friend that he must have something to hide if he was unwilling to have his car searched.
I have never had to deal with harrassment like that when I lived in the suburbs. The cops practically camp out in my apartment complex. One night I was walking home and there were five cops with their guns drawn patrolling my neighborhood on foot. It was a little frightening. One time I was a victim of fraud and I went to the police station to make a complaint and I was treated like the criminal. Let me just say that living in the city is an eye-opening experience (and I'm not talking Manhatten).
That shouldn't matter. It's your right as an American to be a prick. There isn't a law against being an asshole, even though I don't like dealing with people like that either. Any customer facing job requires that you deal with pains in the ass, but as a professional you deal with it. Cops are supposed to be professionals. If it was a case of being uncooperative with the police during an investigation then you can be charged for that.
I never said Bush was the antichrist, so spare me (Score:5, Insightful)
President Clinton did lie about a blowjob, and I don't care. At all. It's completely insignificant in the balance of world affairs. The current President lies about torture. It wasn't under oath, so isn't impeachable, and that distinction is about as morally insignificant as you can get. It's wrong to torture people and then redefine the term in mid-sentence and then pretend you're being forthright about what you're doing. The way those people are being treated would be called torture if it was happening in our country to our citizens, and we know it. It was called torture before we were doing it, wasn't it? If it was your mother or best friend being interrogated in Dallas with these methods, you'd call it torture.
Where is the moral contumely that we were basting eyeballs-deep in during the Clinton impeachment? Where is the outrage? There isn't any, and you know exactly why--Bush is a Republican, therefore whatever he does is lily-white in the eyes of Republicans. Morality, legality, propriety, everything is subordinate to politics. They'll impeach a sitting President over a blowjob but sit placidly by while a President authorizes torture, secret prisons, indefinite detentions, warrantless wiretaps, etc. So spare me your moral equivocations. I don't care if Clinton got blown on film every Sunday at noon while holding the King James Bible in one hand and a joint in the other--if torture doesn't make your moral compass wake up and take notice, there is something fundamentally wrong with you as a human being.
Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree on this, and you are deeply disturbed by what the Administration is doing. If so, you have my apologies. I'm just so sick of the faux moralizing about Clinton, coupled with the complete blindness on issues that really do matter. Blowjobs, even adulterous ones later lovingly covered with perjury, are a miniscule speck, an electron-sized mote, of immorality, compared to torture of human beings. To bring up Clinton and his interns in this context is to color yourself either as a shameless political hack or a pretty despicable human being.
His property (Score:2, Insightful)
Those surveillance cameras are not hidden. They're pretty clear. And that man has the right to protect his family. If someone broke into his house and the proof he had were tapes, would he be the one charged with a felony while the burgler got off because the evidence would be inadmissible? yeah, let's punish the good guy and let the bad off the hook.
We've got to question what the officers did that they do not want that tape shown. If they were orderly and didn't threaten or act like asses toward that family, then there should be nothing to fear. But if they arrested a man and he's been charged with two felony counts simply for recording, then it would make sense that there is something to hide. They must have acted out of line.
And this man being arrested does not indicate that he did anything wrong in the way you might be thinking. Hostility, trying to attack an officers.... No. If simply recording is against the law, then they can arrest him for that and nothing else. He could have been entirely peaceful, as well as his wife and sons, and still could have been arrested. And now, even if all charges are dropped, this man still has an arrest on his record. And if his wife bailed him out via a bail bonds place, then they are out the 10% paid to the bail bonds place. Money lost, embarassment, a record of arrest....
Sad, sad day when taking steps to ensure personal safety in a non-violent way results in grounds for arrest.
Re:Modded up? (Score:3, Insightful)
Then again, maybe our RCMP here in Canada just have to deal with a lot less of the kinds of issues you bring up, we do have less violent gun crime since guns are generally harder to get a hold of here.
I have had great experiences with the police overall, I have no criminal record and I am far from a perfect citizen or anything. My younger years were a non-stop party for the most part, and yet I came through them without a DUI or possession charge, etc. Instead all my dealings with the cops were generally civil since we showed the officer respect. Several times they pulled us over and we'd have the vehicle overcrowded or something, usually we had a non-drinking driver and I think they respected that in us. Sure they'd make us pour the booze out if it was open but then they'd just tell us to get out and walk, then drive off and we'd pile in the vehicle again (we once had 15 in a van
I once was at the local truckstop for after party coffee time, it was pissing down with rain, we were pretty much gooned already and noticed a officer filling up his car at the pumps, we asked him if he was heading downtown and if we could get a lift
Now think about the other types who show no respect to the cops, I would bet my past history with them would have been a lot different had I shown them none.
Most of them are good guys trying to make the streets a safer place for all of us, cut them some slack and treat them with the respect they deserve for being there because you may just need to call them one day yourself.
Re:sigh (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:2, Insightful)
I am sorry, but that is the biggest cop-out I have ever seen.
Not cooperating with a police investigation is not obstructing, even if this is the previlent attitude among cops. Protection of our civil rights should be the first job of our police. If time on a police force is something that changes this view, then I would say you (and perhaps most police officers) have been on the job too long.
As far as I am concerned, this cop should be thrown off the police force, and barded from having any government job for having violated this guys rights. I don't know which bothers me more, that the majority of police don't share this view, or that time on a force reenforces the opposit view.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Modded up? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, thank you very much, I do not need to perform a particular dirty job to know that if the job turns someone into a law-bending dickhead on a power trip, they need to not be employed in that capacity. I don't care why the job fucked them up. It isn't relevant. Oh, you deal with vicious drunken animals every night and it turned you mean? Tough shit, pal, act like a professional or get out of the business. I spent six years intermittently dodging bullets, mines, and IEDs in the Army, so I know what the pressure of life-threatening employment is like. We didn't beat up the random hadjis who showed their soles to us, so I think a cop can do the same for civilians at home. Having a dangerous job doesn't excuse assholery.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Most cops will be nice to you if you bend over and let them do whatever they want. Sure, sure. But whatever you do, don't assert your rights. Then you'll find that the majority become pricks, plain and simple because if you don't want to let them search your car or your house you MUST be hiding something and your MUST be a criminal.
Re:sigh (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you have an ax to grind. It's not at all arbitrary and it isn't in "our society."
Police do risk their lives everyday. They have to deal with the mentally ill, drunks, druggies and domestic disturbances on a regular day-to-day basis. The problem is you /.'ers think that cops are going to die in some spectacular shoot out or car chase, when it is going to be that simple traffic stop or domestic disturbance when someone pulls a knife or gun on them when they aren't prepared for it.
And the risk of death isn't the only the problem, they risk their sanity and their physical health. You think it'd be easy to walk into heated situations dealing with them day-in-day out? It's going to take a toll physically and mentally. Police divorce and suicide are incredibly high for a subculture.
On the topic of heroes ... Every society and culture elevates certain individuals to hero status. Slashdot elevates Linus (whilst Bill gates is the devil) to that status on a regular basis. The term does get thrown around liberally. To persons outside the subculture, and the affect of the hero, it might seem we are crazy putting Linus to that level and Bill as the villain. Who are we to decide who is a hero or not? It seems to be quite an arbitrary label in its own right and made on a individual, personal and subjective level.
The fact is that we've put these servants, and that's what they are, on a pedestal when it's a job they should serve with humility and compassion for their community.I agree that they should serve with humility and compassion at times, however all the time isn't possible for a number of reasons. One reason I can think of is the dual purpose of policing. They must serve as a force and as a service. Or to put it as Thomas PM Barnett said of the "new" structure of the military, they must serve as a Leviathan and as a Systems admin service at once. A force to bring into line the nefarious elements of society and as a service to uphold the good and help society. It must be damn hard to walk the line between those completely different mindsets. One is a mindset of destruction and one of creation. Both are needed, but I bet you it pushes some police over the edge into the Leviathan mode more than service mode.
Oh, and where you claimed "And EVERY cop is dirty. Every single one of them. Either by their actions or their omissions." You know what I think would help cops not go dirty? By actually elevating them to some form of warrior/hero status which you so want to take away. This elevation might have a side effect of instilling a form of chivalric maxims or bushido code. It might take a cleaning out of the internal system, but for us on the outside holding them to a bushido/knights code of honor might very well hold them responsible for their action when they are dishonoured rather than them being just another "servant" as you put it. The word Servant also brings up powerful ideas. Servants are expendable, they also deal with menial tasks. Upholding the law is not menial task. Your use of the word servant shows more about your biases and grudge against the police than it does for an objective description of their role.
Re:Modded up? (Score:3, Insightful)
But I've also seen an awful lot of cops standing in rain directing traffic after storms knocked out power and traffic lights, and cops cleaning up after some drunk spread himself across a hundred yards of asphalt, and so on. Every single time I've personally been on the receiving end of police attention, whether for traffic violations, accidents, or general uproar, the officer has been unfailingly polite and respectful, even when I didn't deserve it.
Twice, years ago, domestic strife led me to attract a cop's attention. Once I was simply driving in a blind rage, and a cop pulled me over after I passed a car on the shoulder. I stopped, but then for three or four minutes I simply sat there trying to squeeze the steering wheel in two, as the cop patiently rapped on my window and—with increasing volume but unfailing courtesy—requested my attention. When I finally stopped staring at the dash and rolled down my window, he let me explain my bad temper and sent me home with a warning, even though he would have been justified in at least runnning me through a field sobriety test and could easily have found a pretext to toss me in the pokey for the evening.
The second time, a year later in another town, my then-significant other decided my apartment was a good place for a screaming match, a decision that displeased my neighbors. Now, by most accounts I've seen, "domestic disturbance" is high on the list of calls a cop hopes to end his shift without hearing—there's simply no telling what's going on behind the door you're about to knock on. But when an officer appeared on my porch that evening, he was again polite and patient. Nobody got threatened. Nobody got arrested. By his complete courtesy he embarrassed both of us into better behavior, at least in the short term.
When people say, "All cops are pricks," they aren't merely failing to recognize the large number of officers who do a hard job with patience and dedication—they are actively isolating those good cops from the public that depends on them. Swear out complaints against the bad ones, folks, but give the good ones some support. Please.
Re:sigh (Score:2, Insightful)
So what are you saying? That a lady called 911 and reported the thing and at that point the decision was already made to screw your cousin over? Obviously so, otherwise an ambulance would have been sent. Instead, they send cops who found an injured person on the side of the road with a witness (the lady) hanging around and, after the fact, decided to beat the crap out of someone who had his foot impaled on the foot rest, take his wallet, and leave him in a coma in the hospital?
I'm sorry, sir, I'm just not buying it.
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Solution: A $5 Sign? (Score:3, Insightful)
That's an arrogant thing to say. If you have the choice between a small chance of severe punishment on one hand and much less severe punishment on the other, most people would opt for the less-severe punishment. Why gamble? Why do so many companies, for example, settle out of court? Is it because they are really guilty, and this is an easy way out? I know that is not always the case. Sometimes, the risk is simply not worth the principle.