Complaints Filed Over Firms Seeking H1-B Holders 523
Vicissidude writes "Since May, the Programmers Guild has filed 100 complaints with the U.S. Department of Justice, accusing several companies of advertising that they specifically want H-1B workers, a violation of U.S. law. The U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act requires that U.S. jobs must be available to U.S. workers. The complaints stem from ads containing wording such as "We require candidates for H1B from India," and "We sponsor GC [green card] and we do prefer H1B holders," the Programmers Guild said. The Programmers Guild, looking for ads on major online job boards, has so far targeted only ads seeking computer programmers, the guild said. It plans to file 280 more complaints over the next six months."
Some more info (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally, one point that makes me skeptical is that I hear about this from the Programmer's Guild again and again. I'm not sure what the Programmer's Guild does, other than make a big stink about H-1B visas. Not that this is, in and of itself, necessarily a bad thing -- but if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried, criminal and downright treasonous as the Programmer's Guild says, wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?
Re:Some more info (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Some more info (Score:3, Insightful)
But it's hard when Free Traitors keep bringing in people to compete with the people already here.
Using phrases like 'free traitor' doesn't help matters. It puts you in the same bucket as the Micro$oft crowd.
Re:Some more info-Back slash. (Score:5, Insightful)
And there was I about to feel sorry for you....
Re:Some more info-Back slash. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Some more info-Back slash. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Some more info-Back slash. (Score:3, Informative)
I see a strong possibility that China will become economically dominant. I don't really see that they are militaristically aggressive. We won't like it if China is on top, as they won't have ANY concern about how we feel. This, however, is much different from painting them as militaristic wo
that's not very internationalist of you (Score:4, Insightful)
IEEE-USA, Unions, Milton Friedman speak up (Score:5, Insightful)
Lots of folks speak up against it.
The hired gun lobbyist Harris Miller loses to Jim Webb [computerworld.com]. Miller ran an unaplogetic pro H-1B and pro-outsourcing campaign. Seems the voters in Virginia don't like Harris Miller's record.
Heck, even Milton Friedman calls it a subsidy [computerworld.com].
Re:IEEE-USA, Unions, Milton Friedman speak up (Score:3, Insightful)
Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with you, but you said... "InfoWorld has been running articles on this H-1B situation for a while. [snip] if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried, criminal and downright treasonous as the Programmer's Guild says, wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?"
Other parties like, say, InfoWorld?
Re:Huh? (Score:3, Interesting)
But you'll notice that all the articles on InfoWorld reference the Programmers' Guild.
I'm really not trolling like the other guy suggests. Any time I see a single organization chiming in on an issue every. Single. Time. It's. Brought. Up ... I get suspicious. I don't doubt that outsourcing, H-1B and related issues are a problem for American workers. I just wonder what the Programmers Guild's deal is. Are you a member? Is anyone you know?
Oh and BTW -- full disclosur
Re:Some more info (Score:5, Insightful)
Might I suggest going to, say, their web site [programmersguild.org] and reading the plain-English ByLaws [programmersguild.org] page? In particular, "ARTICLE 3 - PURPOSE", which contains a bulleted list of, well, what they do.
but if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried, criminal and downright treasonous as the Programmer's Guild says, wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?
Follow the money... Who benefits by driving down the cost of competant IT work? Hint - not "everybody but IT workers", because when we have money, we spend it as though the apocalypse will happen tomorrow.
As for whether or not companies really engage in such reprehensible hiring practices, you need look no further than the employment section of your local paper. See the tiny, unappealing buzzword-laden ads for experienced coders, paying a third the going rate in your area? Those companies will not get responses from anyone but interns. They can then claim they couldn't find anyone to take the job despite "honestly" trying, and can then hire H1Bs.
Regardless of your opinion of outsourced labor, I don't think anyone would consider such transparent tactics as anything but a legal farce.
wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?
While IT people may have extremely well-organized personal lives (social and desktop notwithstanding), we don't tend to organize into larger bodies. The "I" in "INTP/INTJ" doesn't stand for "I likes large crowds".
Re:Some more info (Score:5, Informative)
Often it is not. There are many wiggly loopholes. Examples from my old blog:
# Resume Templating - Add every skill that a given H-1B candidate has on his/her resume into the "needed skills" line of the application form. That way the "needs" profile will never match a citizen above the probability of winning the Instant Millionaire lottery. Government inspectors are usually too overworked and/or not knowledgeable enough to check and follow-up on actual skills used on the job, especially if there are more than a few. (This approach was also covered in another message.)
# Undocumented Experience - Claim a highly experienced H-1B applicant is really only a beginner, and thus a company gets experience at beginner rates. Inspectors cannot realistically check somebody's skill background as obtained inside a foreign country. If they do find out, claim you didn't know. Just make sure the experience is not on your "official" copy of the visa worker's resume. It is an easy lie to get away with.
# Take Advantage of Situation - Work the H-1B overtime or weekends without extra pay. Complaining risks getting the H-1B sent home, so they usually keep quiet. Plus, they may not understand how our legal system works or be intimidated by a process foreign to them. (US money is worth more to them due to exchange rates when they eventually go back home, and thus they often just live with labor abuses without complaint in order reduce risk while obtaining their financial nest-egg.)
# Tinker with Titles - Information technology (IT) titles are often vague, inconsistent, and overlapping. It is hard to penalize a company for using the wrong IT title on an application form because there practically is no such thing as an objectively "wrong title" in IT. Plus, most IT work involves a mixture of a lot of different skills, such as programming, analysis, debugging, customer support, documentation, etc. There are no consensus metrics for categorizing these based on ratios or percentage of usage.
# Outsource the Buck - A big company can contract the H-1B from a small, fly-by-night company that keeps a portion of an H-1B's pay, delays paychecks, does not pay overtime, etc. The big company that contracts out is then not exposed to the risk of dubious activity. They can claim that they did not know the contractor was abusing the visa workers (and may not know). Such small contracting companies are often staffed by people from the H-1B's originating country such that if they are caught or risk being caught, the company folds up and goes back to their home country where they can do other business. The risk of real penalties is very small. (Cross-country white-collar crime investigation tends to be poorly coordinated between countries involved.)
# Shred Citizen Resumes - Companies applying for visas are required to place an ad in a typical job listings source and review received resumes or applications for qualified citizens. Government inspectors may ask to see such resumes. However, if somebody takes citizens resume and shreds them, nobody besides the shredder will ever know they existed.
# Lopsided Interviews - Government inspectors don't sit through most live interviews. Thus, a company trying to weed out citizens can simply ask tough questions when interviewing the citizen, but be easy on the visa candidate.
Re:Some more info (Score:5, Informative)
The H1-B program is a joke. It's often not fair to the Americans that get displaced, and it's often not fair to the visa holders, who in my experience can end up in situations resembling indentured servitude. The only parties that consistently benefit from it are those unscrupulous companies who aren't willing to follow the law, since the government does next to nothing to enforce the requirements placed on employers.
Loving it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Loving it (Score:2)
I have seen H1B program abused with my own eyes (Score:4, Interesting)
Another time they paid the H1B's only once every six months (the full amount though). The workers couldn't do anything about it because reporting it would have their sponsor put out of business, sending them back home.
Re:Loving it (Score:2)
Re:Loving it (Score:5, Interesting)
It would be OK if this created a level playing field, but it does not (at least not when hiring foreign IT workers to work in the U.S.). Workers who are laid off on who were on a work visa need to find another job within one month or clear out of the U.S. If they find another job, the new company they work for will need to spend the money to get the sponsorship moved to them. Put together the fact that finding a job in under a month and that many companies don't want to spend the money on the lawyers fees for the sponsorship, getting laid off usually means having to leave the country. So what's it all mean? Knowing this, many times companies hire the foreign IT workers for often times less than they would pay U.S. workers, knowing that they can treat the foreign workers like indentured servants. Work hard, lots of overtime, and for less money, or we will lay you off, and you'll have to leave the country. This can be quite a hardship... and ergo no level playing field. An American employee will no longer have an income (usually) if laid off, but they don't have to immediately uproot everything and move their home overseas.
When the government gives out the H1-B they should recognize that they are really saying 'we have a shortage of IT workers'. That should mean that it shouldn't matter what company the foreign IT worker works for. I.e. if they are given a visa it should be a 6 year work visa and the worker should be free to move from company to company and stay in the U.S. for 6 years regardless of whether they are employed or not (but they should not be eligible for welfare or unemployment). That way if company A treats them like shit, they can get another job (without sponsorship hassles) at company B who will treat them better. This would provide incentive for company A to pay more and treat the employee better. This would benefit the American workers in that there would be less incentive for company A to hire the foreign worker since they will have to provide the same or similar pay and benefits as if they had just hired an American worker. Otherwise the foreign work, like an American worker, can leave for company B. Then the only business justification the American company would have to bring someone in from overseas would be if they really were more qualified in some respect than an American worker. Of course the company is then free to possibly outsource directly to China or India, but that is another matter.
My 22 cents worth... slag away at it if you want.
Re:Loving it (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Loving it (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Loving it (Score:4, Informative)
I worked for about 5 years total on TN visas in the 'States. That is a NAFTA free trade treaty and applies to Canadian and American professionals allowing them to work in America and Canada respectively. I paid unemployment insurance, social security tax and the company covered health care benefits. I had better healthcare coverage in the U.S. than I do in Canada by the way... as long as I was employed... ).
I am pretty sure the U.K. has a rule for some types of emegrants that says if you keep employed, keep your nose clean, and pay your own way, you can stay for up to five years (which may be extended... and you can apply for citizenship after around five years).
Here is one of the paragraphs from the Immigration and Nationality Directorate:
Re:Loving it (Score:5, Informative)
Effectively in the UK all foreign workers subsidise the native's social security budget with their contributions for 4+ years. Situation in other EU countries is not much different. The difference is only the time you are obliged to subsidise the local xenophobic skinheads who are too lazy and/or ignorant to get a permanent job so they live off state benefits instead. It is 10+ years in France, 7? (not sure) in Germany and 5+ in most other European countries.
I am not aware of all the complexities of the US tax quagmire, but I would not be surprised if it is any different. If the companies rip the off the H1B people, the state which allows it is quite likely to try to have a go at that as well. After all they are effectively a form of slaves. If they open their mouth they are chucked out of the country right away.
While for an European getting kicked out will not really matter, for most H1Bs from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc it is actually a matter of family pride. "My son has been accepted to work in theUS is a lot of kudos points for a small village or a slumland family. Being force-sent back is major strike to the family pride in some places. As a result some of these people will go to all means to stay and the fact that they are staying silent about being ripped off is not surprising.
Too many laws and not enough enforcement (Score:2)
Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement (Score:2)
Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement (Score:2)
Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement (Score:2)
The X words idea seems like it would accomplish the same thing, but be overtu
Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (Score:5, Insightful)
That was never true. H1-B workers were needed simply because salarys were beginning to rise and industry didn't want that trend to continue.
it's just not true... (Score:4, Insightful)
And it is very common to have many positions open you simply cannot fill. In the late 1990s it was even more true.
I remember at that time, see that one department, which was triple the size of most others fit onto a half-floor just like all the other departments. I asked the pertinent people and found that they could fit in that space because 2/3rds of their positions were unfilled.
I was not a hiring manager at the time, but I can say now that it very likely goes like this. You open a position. You get a lot of candidates. You interview the candidates and find none are suitable. You don't even talk money seriously with a candidate until after they pass the interview anyway. And then, the hiring manager doesn't care much anyway becuase it's not like he's paying out of his own pocket.
So, you never rejected anyone due to salary, and yet you still can't find anyone. It's natural then to say "if only we had a larger pool of candidates to draw from". And being able to draw from foreigners can help with this.
It's tough being picky about your candidates, but not being picky creates more problems in the long run.
Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, by your definition, no intervention in a marketplace is ever "needed" since supply and demand will always take care of things.
Now you're getting it - when salaries rise, companies are forced to be more efficient - they could pay me twice what they do (and it is a decent number to start with) and still come out ahead if there was strong leadership in the industry. Most projects that fail could have succeeded or been killed early if only people would learn the lessons from something as old as the mythical man month.
You needed to raise huge sums of VC to pay ridiculously prissy workers who wanted 150k a year and perks out the ass to do no work.
This was never true. The fact is, VCs would demand you spend a certain amount of money every month and get mad if you fell behind. Go ask Jeff Bezos if he paid prissy workers out the ass when he was starting amazon.
This was a short term labor supply shortage and labor demand spike, all wrapped up in one.
Since when? Good people are always hard to find, but refusing to hire older people doesn't help.
There are some local areas where tech wages have started a rapid runup again - apparently this is happening in Seattle now.
Ooh, I hope so. It'd be nice to work somewhere for 2 years and pay my house off.
Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (Score:2)
This is NOT the case at all, the job market right now is awesome. I currently have a job but I decided to put my resume on monster.com just to see what was available. I got such a response that I had to take it off of there, my e-mail inbox was full and my phone was ringing off the hook. I also want to mention that yes, about 25% of the responses I got were from head hunters but the rest were straight from the companies themselves and wha
Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (Score:2)
I'm not saying that's true for all areas of the market - but that's why the H1B issue is so complicated. Some areas really need foreign workers, because there's not enough domestic talents. Others experience a glut of workers, and the H1Bs there kill the job market - in that specific area.
There is no simple answer to this.
(Disclosure: I'm an e
Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (Score:2)
If there are hundreds of *qualified* people out there, I'd like to see them.
that's irrelevant. the issue is with the direct and explicit courting of h1b workers ... at some advantage to the employer no doubt.
Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (Score:3, Informative)
Then you're probably doing a reasonably good job of separating the wheat from the chaff -- and throwing away the wheat. Lots of ways you can do this. You could be demanding a set of skills which nobody has, so only poseurs apply. You could be demanding a set of skills which nobody at the professional level you're asking for f
Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (Score:3)
No guarantees, but sending in a resume can't hurt. Prepare for a tough interview.
(Not speaking for the company, opinions are my own, yadda yadda...)
Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today (Score:2, Interesting)
Even though one case does not prove anything I'd sa
What this really is... Job tailoring? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know that this "job-tailoring" is done frequently in the industry as a way of getting the exact person you know. Just that if it fits this shoe, it's quite certainly illegal... kind of like saying you want someone who is/not specific race/disabled/etc.
I, for one, hope that the hiring managers who put up such job descriptions get fired, as it's part and parcel of the corruption. Just wish we could fire them for other similar "job-tailoring" activities.
Re:What this really is... Job tailoring? (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, that's the only reason anyone still writes job ads. If you nor your employees know poeple good for the job, you're already out of business.
That's just how it is.
Re:What this really is... Job tailoring? (Score:2)
Americans want the work... (Score:2)
Wants the impossible (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Wants the impossible (Score:2)
Or even as long as some Democrats are bought-and-paid-for shills of corporations as well. The good news (such as it may be) is that there is rising movement among Democrats to get rid of scum like this. There is no such movement among the Republicans. Of course, if I had my way, I would ban political parties all together and force everyone running for office to run as an independent. At the very least, eve
Re:Wants the impossible (Score:3, Insightful)
Once legal abortion is overturned by a solid supreme court majority, the republican party is going to lose power astonishingly quickly.
They are doing all kinds of things their religious base is ignoring until the abortion issue is resolved.
And the democrats are going to continue to lose until then as well.
After it is overturned, I see the reverse being true for at least 20 year
Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed... (Score:2)
Which at real cheapskate companies leads to H1-B employees making more than US workers, because nobody requires companies to pay US citizens the prevailing wave.
The reason why H1-B wor
Who cares? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Interesting)
It took me 5 years to "prove my salt" all over again, despite having 8 years in the industry. I'm only now
Re:Raise less H1-B's and more Hell towards Co.'s. (Score:3, Interesting)
I refuse to put up with it, and if someone is verbally abusive to me I will not hesitate to quickly and loudly put them in their place before leaving immediately afterwards.
I had one company that I had *really* wanted to work at, and after a combination of five phone and in-person interviews, they said they wanted me to come in
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah-ha! There is the real damage being done to not only our economy, but our society as a whole! The idea that it's ok to fill entry level positions with cheap foreign labor/workers it a cancer on our society. Those entry level positions may not be that important, but you learn a lot in those jobs, especially right out of college. If you can't get real world experience, how will you ever get that "nice job"? Get a friend to tailor a job for you in a position you have zero experience with? Fake it on your resume and hope they don't find out? If you do not have entry level positions for those graduating from college, they will never mature into experience programmers/engineers and we'll have to pull from the H-1B visa holders again for the experienced positions. After all, they were the ones in the entry level positions, they got the experience, so they should get the jobs at the next level too. Soon even the most experienced positions will be available for foreign replacement. And where will you be then? In the unemployment line or busing tables like the rest of us educated types who never got our careers off the ground because there were no entry level positions for us.
Re:Who cares? (Score:2)
Read Catch-22.
Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Insightful)
Next up: Labor-based GC 7 years? (Score:5, Interesting)
It never ceases to amaze me how, globally, we have virtually free movement of capital, a moderately free movement of goods, but a heavily restricted movement of people. The three major components of the economy have dramatically different levels of restrictions depending on how the given component cuts between the wealthy and the working "classes".
Who wants a lightening fast immigration system? Not the employers...that's for sure. And yet, overall, that would arguably be best for the overall economy.
"It turns out the so-called free market isn't quite so free, if you're a worker bee".
Re:Next up: Labor-based GC 7 years? (Score:2)
They took err jeerbs! (Score:5, Insightful)
War on drugs strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
Confiscate the assets of the businesses illegally lowering wages via violation of the law.
An old scheme (Score:5, Interesting)
That's only one of the schemes I've encountered while looking for work. The job market can be a scummy place.
Changes Nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
Even though future employers may get a slap on the wrist for the way in which they advertise positi0ons, it will not (and can not) change their hiring policies. All this is going to do is be a waste of time for companies (ie interviewing/processing applications from unwanted candidates) and for the individual applying for the job (writing letters, e-mails, phone calls etc to a company that has no intent of hiring you).
Yes it does suck and is discriminatory, however in the land of free enterprise what can you do? Mandate they hire Americans? Easy solution for the company, off shore the jobs.
Things you should know about H1-B (Score:5, Informative)
Also it is good to know there are minimum salary levels for the H1-B workers. A company can't hire a senior programmer from outside of US and pay 20k per year. This doesn't mean that some companies might not abuse the system and try different tricks to get cheaper work force but I really belive that the majority of H1-B workers came in US because companies couldn't find qualified people.
The truth is that there aren't many good programmers out there and there is still a lot of demand for them. I see many programmers coming for interviews at the company I work for and when someone good arrives (not very often) it is very difficult to get them as they already have several offers from other companies.
BTW I am also a H1-B worker and I'm payed a competitive salary and the company also pays a lot of legal fees for my H1-B and green card. Besides that I pay income taxes and spend all my money here in the US. America has a lot to win from the H1-B program.
Training Damage (Score:3, Insightful)
You seem to be suggesting that companies be allowed to replace/substitute average citizen programmers with top-notch foreign guest workers. Regardless of whether this is "right" or not, it is not the premise that the H-1B program is supposed to be based on. Besides, how are average programmers going to get good with practice if all the jobs are given away to foreign workers? C-level citizens will be
Re:Training Damage (Score:3, Informative)
It does apply to nearly all careers that aren't unskilled labor. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, actuaries, and even fashion models can and have been hired with H1B visas. It just happens that companies are more willing to use H1B for programm
You missed the whole point (Score:3, Interesting)
They are also here to fulfil their american dream. Many of them are with Much talent but rather than talent they also have a good attitude towards their employees, unlike some us-citizen counterparts who always in demand of high salary.
Working as a programmer is not just about salary you also need to have a passion for it, if your just being a programmer just for the money i would never want to hire you.
EE-Times study shows 23% wage discrepency (Score:3, Informative)
"Immigrant[1] engineers with H-1B visas may be earning up to 23 percent less on average than American engineers with similar jobs, according to documents filed with the U.S. Department of Labor. Salary data from Labor Condition Applications (LCAs) lends credence to arguments that lower compensation paid to H-1B workers suppresses the wages of other electronics professionals...."
[1] H-1B's are not immigrants. This may be a mis-wording.
It's an easy problem to solve (Score:3, Insightful)
just my 2c.
Well sometime it's the law that need to be fixed.. (Score:4, Insightful)
So you don't want Indian to come and take jobs in the US? Well think of the consequences:
- The company will outsource to India, and Indian worked cost far less when he Lives in India than in the US.
- If a worker offer a lower labor cost it's a gift to the american economy. The goods will be cheaper, the consumer will save money, invest in other sectors etc..
- If someone wishes a workvisa it means he intends to work, not live on welfare. The intent to work should be a plus for immigrants not a minus...
Protectionism is the most dangerous economic fallacy ever. Come on you're the US, you are liberals, don't fall for that old interventionnist trick.
Nothing's changed here in 20 years... (Score:5, Interesting)
http://eh.net/hmit/compare/ [eh.net]
In short, a smart engineer with a college degree makes the same today as he did 20 years ago. Even back then, half engineers I graduated with were Indian or Chinese. It's no different today.
Sure, we engineers have to compete globally, which makes us poorer on average than doctors and lawyers. I's still rather be an engineer.
The first month after taking that first job, I was approached by communist picketers outside my workplace. They were pushing for unions, and higher wages. These Programmers Guild people are no different. It was a bad idea then, just as it is now.
Shouldn't this be black and white? (Score:3, Interesting)
Wether H1B are "moral" or not, the issue should be that these companies might be simply violating the letter (and spirit) of the law that implements H1B visas.
They are stating in a public way that they prefer H1B workers? No problem there since everyone is entitled to their opinions. But if they are actively refusing to hire locals in favor of H1B, they are not even exploiting a loophole. They are simply breaking a law that states that H1B are only to be hired when local talent is not available.
Inmigration (as well as labor?) authorities should have a record of H1B sponsors. Number too high? Audit them and make them justify their H1B.
Of course, politicos are usually in the pockets of corporations, so I'm guessing there's not much chance of that.
In fact, given all the brouhaha that I'm seeing on CNN about illegal aliens in the US, I'm suprised that this issue hasn't come up (I know they are H1B are legal, but mobs usually don't care).
Auction them off (Score:5, Interesting)
The visas are obviously in high demand -- they disappear in an astonishingly short time after they become available every year.
IMO, the best way to approach this is to auction the H1-B visas off: If you have a position that you need filled, bid for an H1-B visa. If somebody else needs it more, they'll bid more and they'll win. Otherwise, if you need it more, you'll bid more and win.
The interesting thing is the feedback mechanism -- if the visas are going for $200,000 each, that's a pretty good indication that the job isn't availble in the US and it's really hard to train Americans to do it. But, on the other hand, if companies are just trying to save a few bucks, then the visas will go for a lot less, maybe $20,000. That would indicate that there are too many H1-B visas, and companies are just using them to get cheap labor. If the price is too high, that would indicate the need to raise the cap. Otherwise, it would indicate a need to lower it.+
Restrict H1Bs to people with US degrees (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course they prefer H1B (Score:3, Interesting)
So the guy moved up north to the land of beavers, poutine and warm busty women. Sure, it took a little work to get the papers done but now he's a permanent citizen just like me, and he works the same job, gets the same pay, enjoys the same benefits and pays the same ridiculously high taxes as everyone else. We don't throw around many work visas because frankly, if you're going to work in Canada, you might as well live here too and keep the money recirculating (and re-taxing) in our system.
Some Myths About H1B (Score:4, Informative)
But there is a dynamic at work here, namely that since "American" firms have invested so much (money, resources, strategy, time, etc....) in offshore vendors and importing NIV programmers they have created a defacto dependency on the paradigm. As they've chased Americans out of the field, in preference of a cheaper foreign factory approach, they now are much more reliant upon foreign engineers and programmers. Most of my colleagues have moved on to other career fields or they simply are hanging on as SMEs, marking the days to retirement. It's no wonder that computer and engineering student enrollments are declining -- there'll always be young Americans who answer to a calling despite potential career conditions and ramifications (i.e., see teaching), but statistics are now bearing out that the majority will pursue a more fruitful career path, both in terms of short term financial reward and long term job stability.
Ironically, or comically, or tragically (depending on your particular perspective!), from what I understand from conversing with friends who are directing such offshore/NIV programmer teams, the offshore vendors don't seem to acknowledge the great gift bestowed upon them. Instead, they've fouled it up, focused entirely on short term profits, managing their operations like multi-level marketing schemes. Shuffling workers to maintain a subserviant force, yet failing and leaving core systems of our largest companies in a sordid state of disrepair.
H1B visas are so last year. Now it's L1B (Score:3, Informative)
The trend now is towards L1B visas. These were something the US originally lobbied for, to allow Americans working for US multinationals to work abroad. But it works both ways. If a multinational company has operations in the US, they can move employees to their US locations under an L1B visa as an intracompany transfer.
L1B visas offer many advantages for the employer:
There's a requirement that the employee had to be employed by the company for a year before coming to the US, and they're supposed to have "specialized knowledge", but that's about it.
So this has become a favorite tool of body shops; hire in India, make them work in a call center for a year, then send them to the US to work cheap.
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:2)
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:2)
But that's not the case so far with globalization- so far everybody's poorer- and the equilibrium we're headed for is the $.33/day wages.
The investments that US companies make into (relatively) high-paying jobs in, for example, India, spread more money around that economy. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Except for it's not. India has more poor peop
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:4, Insightful)
If a company can spend less to hire someone from India / Mexico / wherever, why on earth should we stop them? Why should they be forced to pay more money to hire someone from the US? This is utterly against the spirit of the free market.
In a completely free market, eventually wages for everybody doing a particular sort of job would end up about the same: as companies send work where it's cheapest, the local economy grows and thrives and the wages there will rise. Now, many things conspire to make markets non-free: sometimes things as simple and nigh unto insurmountable as Geography, sometimes things as ugly as petty politics.
Argue if you want that a free market is evil/bad/wrong. But recognize that any sort of visas and such are barriers to entry, and what you describe ("wages should be high because the skills are rare") is diametrically opposed to that: you are artificially limiting the supply by political machinations, almost exactly in the same way a monopolist can limit the supply of the product they can sell, in order to drive the price up so they can make the most profit.
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:2)
Depends on what you think the purpose of participating in an economy instead of just stealing from your neighbors is.
If a company can spend less to hire someone from India / Mexico / wherever, why on earth should we stop them?
Because economics has become warfare- and unless you want to be forced to worship Krishna, there's a reason why
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:5, Informative)
But let me say this. My dad is an award-winning economist (Jonathan Hughes Prize, actually) and he's a good man, and I've taken an introductory class myself, though it's been a while. Still, I know a few things. Economics is a science. It has laws. True, they are not as solid as the Laws Of Physics, but they're just as true. And the truth is that free markets, by and large, make peoples' lives better, not worse. Your rhetoric about how "markets never did any good for anybody" is extremism of the most ridiculous and absurd variety. What did help people then? Sustanance farming? People don't trade in a market , whether they're trading corn or computers or labor or lemons, unless both parties gain something. You may groan about your soul-sucking job, but the fact is that you'd be far worse off without it.
My father has argued that free trade is a fundamental human right: If someone in Cuba has something to sell me, and I want to buy it, what business has anyone stopping us? Anything else is simply coercing us. You argue "protectionism!" to build a strong local economy. Why must it be local? Are the people overseas less deserving of jobs, and the progress of the modern world? Ah, I am sure you will argue about "what progress?" and tell us of how they are so terribly exploited and make only sixty cents a day in a factory - but you have missed the alternative, that they were making the equivalent of thirty cents a day doing sustainence farming beforehand. Ah, you will say, but the companies, the evil companies of course, they are going to pass all the savings along to the CEOs, those rich evil bastards. In a truly free market, though, another company will gladly spring up doing the exact same thing, but NOT pay the CEOs a bunch of money, until the other company goes out of business (or changes).
Markets are not there to make your life better. They are there to make everybody's lives better. If it comes down to it, assuming you still have Free Will, you can always choose to exclude yourself - if you're willing to pay the price. But then- maybe the price is too high, maybe the government demands taxes or such beyond your ability to pay. But that's outside of the market. That's government.
Moreover, economics - many think it's the study of money. It's not. It's the study of choices. That's all a market is- a set of choices. People associate Economics with Money because Money is the easiest sort of choice to quantify, the easiest to measure, the easiest to analyze. Recognize that to economists, everything is a market unless it's coersion. You're not in favor of coersion for every little thing, are you? If you think people should have any sort of choice in anything they do, you are supporting a market. And I hope you're not aiming for totalitariansim in your politics, especially not intentionally. I'd like to think better of you than that.
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:4, Insightful)
In a truly free market, though, another company will gladly spring up doing the exact same thing, but NOT pay the CEOs a bunch of money, until the other company goes out of business (or changes).
...
Recognize that to economists, everything is a market unless it's coersion.
Unlike Marxist Hacker 42, who I don't think will be comfortable until there's blood in the streets, I'm not going to tell you I have no use for a free market. In fact, my goal would be for as many people as possible to make any rational trades they want, which is probably the outcome you're thinking of when you say "free market."
But you don't get there by removing all the rules. That Econ class should have taught you that all that happens when you remove all the rules is that people take advantage of disparities in bargaining power and information to coerce or fool other parties into non-rational transactions.
The CEO case is a perfect example. The CEOs hornswoggle or pay off the directors, who in turn do the same to the shareholders. Shareholders and employees are left holding the bag. Since there is no incentive for CEOs not to do this, as they profit much more handsomely than they could from simply doing good business, there is no incentive for a CEO to lead your "another company" into the picture.
Thus active public intervention is required to ensure a market where all parties who bargain and inform themselves to the best of their ability realize positive outcomes. The great failing of many people inclined toward a viewpoint informed by classical economics is that they fail to realize this -- effectively embracing a course which inevitably leads to feudalism, not free markets. In this specific situation, the public intervention needed is simply enforced regulation: if Americans won't take your job because you're offering a low salary at which they turn up their noses, that's fine, but actively excluding Americans in order to take advantage of the H-1Bs should be (and is) outlawed.
This is a case where the existing law makes sense and should be enforced, for the sake of a fair and free market.
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:2)
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:2)
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:2)
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:2)
It's increasing the supply without paying for it.
Claiming 'supply and demand' as a description of an artificial scarcity is intellectually dishonest.
Nothing artificial about this scarcity- historically corporations have always had to pay for training to get the skillsets they want. The fact that Americans aren't trained in the skillsets they want just shows that the corporations are no longer paying for the training.
Sure, there are overpaid CEOs out there,
I've neve
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:2)
And here I thought it was the country's responsibility to be loyal to the CEO's. They do make the biggest camapign contributions after all.
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:2)
Loyalty is a two way street- a politician may be bought and paid for, but even he can't stop a bullet if you sabatoge the job market. These pirates masquarading as Americans these days on Wall Street don't seem to have the first clue about where their money comes from.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor (Score:2)
Mod Parent UP.. (Score:2)
this does not deserve flamebait/overrated mods and anyone who has moded it so is blatantly partisan.
Re:USian Terminology (Score:5, Informative)
The big part is that these visas were originally sold as having *no* effect on US employment- after all, the skillsets are supposed to be completely unavailable in the United States, and no way to train anybody in that skillset. In practice though- well, you see some of the quotes from advertising for these jobs.
Re:USian Terminology (Score:4, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B [wikipedia.org]
It's essentially a visa permitting medium term residency in the United States. Corporate managers love them because they can hire 2:1 or even better over local candidates.
Re:USian Terminology (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Truth in Advertising? (Score:2)
Re:Truth in Advertising? (Score:2)
It's okay (Score:2)
I'd love to work in the USA for a while (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why would anyone want an H-1B worker? (Score:3, Informative)