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Boot Camp For Suckers? 610

Posted by Zonk from the bet-it-works-too dept.
DigitalDame2 writes "PC Magazine's Editor-in-Chief says the whole Mac/Windows dual-boot thing is really nothing to get excited about. He writes that Boot Camp is really just a plan to get Windows users to convert to OS X." From the article: "Once you've laid out a few kilobucks on your BC system and been frustrated a few times with Windows limitations, what are you going to do? Jobs's bet: You'll start spending more and more time in OS X, until you--too--become one of the pod people. It's sad to see so many of my compatriots being turned into lemmings. Perhaps they'll wake up and smell the Apple pie in the sky--and realize they've been taken for a ride. But I doubt it."
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Boot Camp For Suckers? More

Boot Camp For Suckers?

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  • Message for Captain Obvious (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MoxCamel ( 20484 ) * on Thursday May 04, 2006 @04:57PM (#15265675)
    Boot Camp is really just a plan to get Windows users to convert to OS X.

    Well...duh! Did anyone think Apple was doing it as a public service?

    Next up: Publishers put nice pictures on their book covers so you will buy them. Bastards!!

    Mox

    • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:04PM (#15265752)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Praising with Faint D@mns ... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rewinn ( 647614 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:14PM (#15265858) Homepage
      Once you've .... been frustrated a few times with Windows limitations, what are you going to do? .... start spending more and more time in OS X

      I don't know whether the article is confused or trying to be clever, but I don't think Apple minds 'criticism' such as that.

    • Re:Message for Captain Obvious (Score:4, Insightful)

      by FooAtWFU ( 699187 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:35PM (#15266066) Homepage
      Boot Camp is really just a plan to get Windows users to convert to OS X.
      Well...duh! Did anyone think Apple was doing it as a public service?
      Converting Windows users to OS X is a public service. Converting Windows users to anything is a public service.

      And, for the record, the only thing Apple makes that I own is the Mighty Mouse (it works surprisingly well with my IBM ThinkPad).

      • Huh. I can't use the mighty mouse. It doesn't work for me. I'm a traditional unix user, who's seen the light of OS X (as long as X11.app and Darwinports are installed). I am used to three-button mice. Not two button with some pansy wheel, though those work as three button mice, but a three-button mouse. Because I am used to three-button mice, I leave three fingers on the top of the mouse at all times. Index on button 1, ring on button 2, and middle finger on button 3/4/5 (wheel). The not-so-Mighty m

      • Re:Message for Captain Obvious (Score:4, Insightful)

        by colmore ( 56499 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @11:37PM (#15268097) Journal
        Funny, my only Microsoft product is a mouse...
    • It's a pretty effective ploy. For my next machine, I'd been looking at a Shuttle, and didn't even consider a Mac — I am thoroughly not a Mac person. Then BootCamp appeared, and I can't help but notice that a Mac Mini is not that much more expensive than a Shuttle...

      I know one person who definitely bought a Mac because of Boot Camp. This is a colleague who works at home, and had good reason to prefer a Mac — mainly because tech support is an issue, and having a Mac allows her to turn to her Mac

    • Of course, getting some to dump Windoze and use MacOS *IS* a public service...
  • ...the editor of PC Magazine reads Slashdot [slashdot.org]? What a shocker. And he even ads* in the requisite amount of Jobs hating because he knows his readers are Windows fans.

    All I have to say is: Where's my royalty check?

    * Whoops, freudian slip

    P.S. What does everyone think of the new comment system? [slashdot.org]

    P.P.S. Yes, I really typed ads. I figured it was more insightful to point it out rather than correct it.

    • I started to reply "I want to have a threesome with your mom and dad", but I caught the typo before I hit submit.

    • Logical Analysis (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Kelson ( 129150 ) * on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:39PM (#15266106) Homepage Journal
      The logic of the piece appears to be thus:

      1. I don't like Macs, Apple, or Steve Jobs.
      2. I don't like anything that can't be tinkered with.
      3. Boot Camp is an Apple Product.
      4. By #1 and #2, anyone who likes any of the above is an idiot and/or brainwashed.
      5. By #3 and #4, Boot Camp is for idiots.

      While #5 may proceed logically from #3 and #4, #4 does not proceed from #1 or #2.

      I'd say the author has a wonderful future ahead of him in either Slashdot trolling, talk radio, or writing about politics. Editing a computer magazine? Not so sure about that one.

  • Apple's Confidence (Score:5, Interesting)

    by RunFatBoy.net ( 960072 ) * on Thursday May 04, 2006 @04:58PM (#15265688)
    In economics, the most efficient markets are those that can be directly competed against one another. It's a definite statement of confidence by Apple that they will *support* the means to run a competing OS on their system. This may be the first time (myself included) that users will see the two OS's, side by side. BC is the only economic way of doing this comparison.

    While there may be drivers lacking initially, I have full confidence that the open source community will fill this void. And with both OS's available and with XP trying my patience, maybe I'll finally take the dive full-time into OSX and BC will be a non-issue. :-)

    Jim http://www.runfatboy.net/ [runfatboy.net] -- A workout plan that doesn't feel like homework.

  • Mom and Apple Pie (Score:5, Funny)

    by yancey ( 136972 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @04:58PM (#15265694)
    I'd rather have Apple pie than Windows pie. Ewww.. gross!

  • Jealousy is a terrible thing. In the meantime... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sierran ( 155611 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @04:59PM (#15265701)
    ...those of us who have a reason to use it will reap the benefits. Yes, Virginia, there are some. Battlefield 2, for example. Annoyingly-single-platform hardware updaters, like cell phone flashers and the like. Those little one-off tasks that I used to have to go find a windows PC for? Not so much anymore. Whee! When I need to do real work? Yep, you're right, I turn back into a pod person.

    Seriously, why does this guy care so much?
    • ..those of us who have a reason to use it will reap the benefits. Yes, Virginia, there are some. Battlefield 2, for example.

      And unfortunately, you're stuck with an underpowered graphics card. I'll pay the premium for a cohesive Unix desktop, but if Apple is not going to give me a little bit more GPU choice, then I'll just stick with running windows and linux at the same time on the same machine [colinux.org], or remote my Kanotix laptop that lives in the basement.

    • Re:Jealousy is a terrible thing. In the meantime.. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Lewisham ( 239493 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:23PM (#15265951)
      "Seriously, why does this guy care so much?"

      Apparently he's noticed that John C. Dvorak's trolling puts the hit count through the roof. Only makes sense to start using the rest of the magazine's brand to start trolling as well.

      He's obviously got some sort of logic malfunction, his arguments are both bizarre and full of emotive language. It's professional trolling.

      • Re:Jealousy is a terrible thing. In the meantime.. (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Lewisham ( 239493 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:25PM (#15265970)
        I forgot to mention, that of particular note, is the last paragraph:

        "In fact, I'm blaming the AAF for a wide-range of habits espoused by supposedly "creative people." I'll bet it's responsible for tattoos, piercings, and the wide-spread adoption of the phrase "no worries." In fact, I believe that most of today's societal ills can be either indirectly or directly attributed to Apple. Widespread hearing loss? Blame the iPod. Carpal tunnel? Blame the Newton."

        This is so insane that it seems he's trying to hint that the rest of the article was just a troll as well. He also links to a piece he wrote where he thought Boot Camp was pretty sweet. I don't know what he's trying to pull, but I'm sure his advertisers are happy.
    • Seriously, why does this guy care so much?

      Just a guess? Job security. Or if not that in particular (if you can train a monkey to write about Windows, you can retrain it to write about Macs), then perhaps he is feeling the relevance of his "core competence" slowly inexorably slipping away.

      He does seem quite bitter about his friends and associates adopting Apple hardware. If some of them find that OS X is a better OS for their daily needs, why would he begrudge them that, calling them lemmings? He even claims

  • Confused? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:00PM (#15265707) Journal
    So, users are going to try OS X, find it works better for them, keep using it, and this makes them lemmings and pod people? I would have thought that this term applied better to people who used a system that didn't work as well for them as the alternatives. By starting the argument assuming that OS X is less frustrating than Windows pretty much destroys any change the author had of making a coherent argument that people should now switch.

    • Re:Confused? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by HrothgarReborn ( 740385 )
      Anyone who does not jump off the cliff is a lemmming. You don't want to be a lemming...DO YOU?!! It's time to start challenging the status quo, just because everyone is rethinking the whole operating system thing doesn't mean you need to do it too. We shouldn't mindlessly march off with something just because its the best system.

      I have actually had people use this same logic and almost these exact words when I suggested we should apply security patches to our systems. They were serious. Scary.

  • Nice spin (Score:2, Flamebait)

    by eln ( 21727 )
    It's refreshing to finally see such a non-biased article about Apple.

    Honestly, of course Apple did it to get more Windows users to try MacOS. Why else would they do it? They want to grab more market share, that's what the whole Intel shift is all about. To make them out to be evil because they want to improve their own market share at the expense of the competition is silly.

    • Re:Nice spin (Score:5, Interesting)

      by phozz bare ( 720522 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:32PM (#15266042)
      It's refreshing to finally see such a non-biased article about Apple.

      Let me see...

      "...once you start using a Mac, your IQ begins to creep downwards..."

      "It's sad to see so many of my compatriots being turned into lemmings."

      "...smell the Apple pie in the sky..."

      "...I'll be smart, fit, and enjoying my real Windows computers..."

      Right.. A sensible, balanced, well written, thought provoking piece! That's it, time to ditch the old Mac, cause everyone knows that only a Windows machine is a real computer!

      phozz

  • Strange definition of "lemming" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by vanyel ( 28049 ) * on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:00PM (#15265709) Journal
    So let me understand this: people compare two os's side by side on the same hardware. When they find that the one they're not familiar with is much better than the one they're used to, and they switch, they're lemmings? I always thought a lemming would be doing what everyone else does just because everyone else does it, which sounds a lot more like your typical Windoze user to me...

    Unfortunately, I don't think anyone's going to buy a relatively expensive mac just so they can try osx on a machine that will still run windoze. Boot Camp's primary utility is saving mac users from having to buy a pc to run applications that they need to run, but which only work in windoze. If/when a native mode virtual pc comes out, boot camp will be even less relevant. To that end, I can agree that boot camp is nothing to get excited about, but that doesn't mean it's without merit.

    • Re:Strange definition of "lemming" (Score:5, Interesting)

      by AnimusF6 ( 765091 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:08PM (#15265800)
      Though I hate to prove you wrong, I, a long time Windows advocate, bought a MacBook Pro solely because of Boot Camp. Yes, Boot Camp convinced me to switch. I found myself in a position that required that I buy a laptop, and intead of going with a boring old Windows box I was able to experiment. I still get the Windows access that my position requires, but I can play around with an entirely new (to me) toy.

  • What's the problem again? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Cl1mh4224rd ( 265427 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:03PM (#15265735)
    "Jobs's bet: You'll start spending more and more time in OS X, until you--too--become one of the pod people. It's sad to see so many of my compatriots being turned into lemmings. Perhaps they'll wake up and smell the Apple pie in the sky--and realize they've been taken for a ride. But I doubt it."
    If you have two products side-by-side, and one is clearly better in your mind, how the hell does that make you a lemming?

    I don't his compatriots are the ones who need to wake up.

    • If you have two products side-by-side, and one is clearly better in your mind, how the hell does that make you a lemming?

      If people find OS X to be clearly better, then that conflicts with his belief that Windows is clearly better. He can resolve this conflict [wikipedia.org] in two ways:

      1. Admitting he might be wrong in his unquestioning belief in Windows and reexamining his practices.
      2. Finding some way of explaining the behaviour of people who switch that doesn't bring him to the conclusion Windows is inferior in so

  • How did this guy even get a job? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by scrondle ( 805647 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:03PM (#15265742)
    I knew there was a reason I haven't looked at PC Magazine since 1998. That's not an article, it's a rant. How about some technical details/reasons why he doesn't like boot camp? What a tool.
    • I stopped reading dead-tree computer magazines a while ago for a few reasons. I used to subscribe to Computer Shopper, but I stopped about 6-8 years ago.
      1. I originally liked it because a lot of suppliers published their entire catalogue in the adverts section. It was nice to be able to compare prices. Then then Internet happened to them all. They would have updated their prices by the time the dead-tree edition arrived, and so it became worthless. Since this was a good 60-80% of the magazine by page co

  • Idiot... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Glock27 ( 446276 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:04PM (#15265746)
    Once you've laid out a few kilobucks on your BC system and been frustrated a few times with Windows limitations, what are you going to do? Jobs's bet: You'll start spending more and more time in OS X, until you--too--become one of the pod people.

    Um, fool, the "pod people" are the 90%+ who are Windows lemmings, putting up with the myriad faults of that OS. I guess that's what I'd expect from a "PC Magazine" editor...mindless Apple bashing, whether it makes sense or not.

  • PC Magazine's Editor-in-Chief says the Mac OX X is nothing to get excited about. He writes that Boot Camp is really just a plan to get Windows users to convert to OS X. "Once you're with Windows limitations, what are you going to do? You'll start spending more and more time in OS X, until you too discover just how much better things can really be. It's sad to see so many windoze-only patriots being exposed to the superior Max OS. Perhaps they'll wake up and realize they've been taken for a ride by Micr

  • And your point is? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by n2art2 ( 945661 )
    I mean really. . . . . We all aready knew this. It wasn't some big shocker.

    What is a big shocker is that this guy doesn't get the fact that that is exactly the reason that many people are thinking about buying a mac, because they can try out a mac and still have windoz to fall back on (ouch that would have to hurt).

    He touts this as if people are jumping into it blindly, and being swindeled. Come on, get with it. Pleople realize this, and are looking forward to it. It's a benefit, not some underhanded

  • Consider the source: Louderbeck (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sakusha ( 441986 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:05PM (#15265764)
    Remember that screed was written by Jim Louderbeck, one of the more notorious anti-Mac PeeCee trolls. I still remember him doing the commentary on a Stevenote carried on ZDTV a few years back, he nitpicked on everything, for no good reasons. Note that his employer, Ziff-Davis, has a major investment from Vulcan Ventures (Paul Allen). Loudermouth knows he has to cater to his owner's financial interests. Nice little doggie, sit up and beg, little Loudermouth!

  • Let me get this straight (Score:3, Funny)

    by Tx ( 96709 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:06PM (#15265769) Journal
    A feature to encourage people to buy a Mac is really a cunning plan to get them to switch to Mac? Wow, he must be a genius to have figured that one out...

  • Holy crap! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Ambiguous Coward ( 205751 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:06PM (#15265777) Homepage

    Boot Camp is really just a plan to get Windows users to convert to OS X.


    Holy crap! Revelation of the year! I can't imagine this being true!


    Seriously, how is this possibly a new idea? Of course that's what it's for. And switching because of "limitations" in the other OS makes you a lemming? No, I'm afraid not. That makes you "smart." See, when people decide to stop hitting themselves in the head with a hammer, and instead opt for hitting themselves in the head with, say, a a soft piece of fruit, or an old ham, we call that "learning one's lesson."


    The author here needs to get over his own case of being a lemming, and try something new. Pod-people? The whole article stinks of the exact same thralldom the author envisions anyone who switches being caught in.


    Yes, I own a mac. Oh, but guess what, I also own a Windows box, and a Linux box! I'm not going to say which one I prefer, because doing so would, at least according to this article, make me a lemming.

  • before i saw it here on slashdot. The article is a big troll. I told him he should title it "I don't like Macs and Here's Why:" Seriously he compares a lot more than boot camp here. He compares macs to windows as a whole and doesn't say all that much about boot camp in itself. Besides, its still in beta so wait for Leapard before a review like this. He mentions hardware that might not run and upgradability being a problem, but come on the hardware he mentions is the kind of stuff that people that woul

  • Seems to be working.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Sergeant Beavis ( 558225 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:07PM (#15265788) Homepage
    It seems to be working because I have every intention of buying a MacPro laptop and dual booting OSX. Apple finally took away my last excuse to give them a shot.

    Now I just need to give up an arm and leg to get the money to buy one.

  • I have (somewhere) and old powerpc mac with the 486 card.. It could run windows and mac.
  • My understanding is that BootCamp allows current Mac users to run Windows on their Mac. The article seems to argue that this will encourage Windows users to get Macs and stick with OSX instead of BootCamping in Windows. That may apply to a few people, but for the most part I disagree.

    As others have pointed out, it seems that the primary strategy behind BootCamp is: Give people the option to use whatever operating system they like. Apple has allowed their consumers to install Linux on their machines since forever, and now they're allowing Windows, too.

    What does Apple have to gain? Profits from hardware sales, of course. Plus, whenever you're buying a Mac, you're also buying OSX, so they're not losing much software profits either. Who else has to gain? Possibly Microsoft in the short run (all those Mac kiddies giving Windows a shot without having to buy a PC).

    And then there is the whole other market of people who aren't concerned about software expandability so much as hardware. Macs aren't great for upgrading their hardware. Windows or no windows.

    - shazow

  • The More Effete Among Us (Score:5, Insightful)

    by American AC in Paris ( 230456 ) * on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:09PM (#15265815) Homepage
    From TFA:

    The more effete among us have embraced BC because now they can run all their favorite Windows apps on a saucy, sexy Mac.

    Wow. Nothing says "class" like a thinly-veiled "Macs are for fags" joke.

    You'd exect this sort of thing from a random blogger or Slashdotter, not the freakin' editor-in-chief of PC Magazine.

  • Suckers? Yesss! (Score:5, Funny)

    by MobyDisk ( 75490 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:11PM (#15265832) Homepage
    Did anyone else read the headline "Boot Camp For Suckers?" and imagine that this was a camp run by Dogbert? I was ready to sign-up some coworkers.

  • Missing the point? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by abes ( 82351 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:11PM (#15265833) Homepage
    I suspect that the majority of people are not buying macs to run windows as their primary OS. If so, I'm going to agree with him. If I wanted to spend the same amount of money and run windows, I'd get a tablet. If only Apple made one...

    The fact is, the majority of people buying the MacTel, are buying it because it runs OSX AND Windows. No other laptop can really claim that -- at least legally (and easily). This is a really important distinction. I love OSX. I'm a linuxhead, but just having things work, and work together seamlessly. Priceless. (though my desktop is still a linux box)

    For my laptop, I have no desire to run windows. I'm through with that agony in my life. I want to enjoy my computing experience. However, I am realistic. There are some applications, unfortunately, that still require windows. Bootcamp gives me the perfect compromise.

    So, this editor is way off base. It's true, Apple isn't performing a public service. But they are taking down one more barrier that would normally stop people from buying their computers. And it's true. Once you start using OS X, you find yourself much less likely to go back to Windows. But not because of some strange Apple conspiracy. Because it kicks M$'s ass (comparing apples to lemons?). And this is from someone who wouldn't touch a Mac a couple years ago.
  • ever have one of those days where you wish you could just rate the article 'troll'.

  • Truly sad! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Jerry Coffin ( 824726 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:18PM (#15265910)
    ...Boot Camp is really just a plan to get Windows users to convert to OS X.

    You sir, have a mediocre grasp of the blindingly obvious!

    I'm tempted to go into a lot more detail, but it would just weaken the message...

  • Jim Louderback (Score:5, Funny)

    by jayhawk88 ( 160512 ) <jayhawk88@gmail.com> on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:18PM (#15265913)
    Making John Dvorak look sane and reasonable since 1988.

  • Windows = MacMame (Score:5, Funny)

    by Yergle143 ( 848772 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:20PM (#15265931)
    I run two curious little game emulators. The first is called Mame and it permits me run a bunch of antique games once written for public coin-fed consoles. The second is called Boot camp and it permits me to run games on a kooky antique dollar-fed operating system. 537

  • Warning: Humour Alert (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ickoonite ( 639305 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:26PM (#15265973) Homepage
    Guys, guys, guys! Calm down, calm down!

    I think he's trying to be funny.

    I am English. I know sarcasm. It's what we do. And I think that's what he's trying to do here. It's not very well done, but there are little hints. It's why he links to himself and calls himself "some idiot". It's why he specifically mentions the M-Audio [m-audio.com] and Kona [aja.com] kit (the latter is Mac only). Of course it works with the Mac.

    So all those who are praising him for his insight, for debunking the Mac myth - stop now. Same goes for the Mac fanbois who are trying to find fault with his article.

    It's subtle, I'll allow that, but remember: always consult the nearest Brit before responding to something that sounds a little bit too stupid to be true. It probably is.

    iqu :P
    • That's always the danger with this kind of satire, unless it's very well delivered it can make the author seem utterly insane. I didn't figure it out until after I'd read the article, gotten pissed, and then clicked on the 'some idiot' link and just had to say WTF?

      Apparently, Dvorak has been doing satire for years.

  • he just replied to me! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by signore pablo ( 544088 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @05:43PM (#15266149)
    From : Louderback, Jim
    Sent : Thursday, May 4, 2006 8:33 PM
    To : "Paul *"
    Subject : RE: Boot Camp: Apple Bobs for Suckers

    It was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek. Glad you liked it and saw
    it that way!

  • The Article is Troll Bait, Don't Waste Your Time (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sofla ( 969715 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @06:00PM (#15266271)
    Subject says it all. I went over to read the linked article and I regretted it. The guy is so painfully clueless on this topic, its hard to know where to begin. His most blatant mis-statement:

    "Apple's not interested in a DIY Mac, nor is it concerned with the case-mod culture of the PC."

    True Apple isn't big on a DIY system. Neither are most Mac users. But saying that there isn't a case-mod culture among Mac users is completely asinine. MacAddict runs case mod articles - with photos - on a semi-regular basis, all you'd have to do is pick up a back issue or two to see how wrong this statement is. And if you don't know about MacAddict (as I suspect the author doesn't) you really have no business making commentary about Mac users or case-mod culture.

    "I don't know about you, but when I buy a computer I want everything to work right."

    This of course is one of the top reasons that people buy Macs. The tight integration between the OS and the hardware still beats Windows Plug-and-Pray 9 times out of 10. "Plug it in, and it just works" has been the Apple mantra for *years*. Its what the users expect. Compare to Windows XP, where plugging in a new monitor meant I had to re-install my wireless network driver, or adding memory forces me to register with Microsoft on my next reboot? I'm not sure what's worse, that these things happen or that it doesn't bother me anymore.

    There are other serious flaws with the article. It really has no redeeming value, and its just so loaded with flamebait it reflects poorly on the authors of PC Magazine that they even published it.

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @07:04PM (#15266750)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Biased summary (biased article) (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SilentJ_PDX ( 559136 ) on Thursday May 04, 2006 @07:20PM (#15266857) Homepage
    Perhaps they'll wake up and smell the Apple pie in the sky--and realize they've been taken for a ride. But I doubt it.

    When you're given a fair chance to evaluate two alternatives, and decide on one of them... how is that 'being taken for a ride'?

    BC users can use either OS. The summary assumes that choosing Windows is the right alternative and choosing Mac is the sucker one.

    Poor.

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