The Time for Women in Games 96
VeeCee writes "Next Generation has an interesting article on why few women are game developers, why it should change, and how." From the article: "Fulton then cited workforce statistics, showing that in 1950, 30 percent of women worked, compared with 70 percent six years ago. 'We're rapidly becoming equal players in the larger workforce. More women are playing games.' Citing a study that showed women outnumbered men as players in the 24 to 35 year-old demographic, Fulton granted that casual games were a factor. 'However I think there's an appetite there. As we get online, as the games start getting more interactive, more social, women are getting more and more interested in what it means to play games.'"
Wonder why? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Wonder why? (Score:2)
What's your point? (Score:2)
What?
My one question is this: why is it always an assumed premise that if there's a statistic in which girls or boys are over-represented:
1. it's automatially a bad thing
2. it's automatically a bad thing fo
Re:What's your point? (Score:1)
Women not represented equaly in every facet of existence? Holy crap! We need more female Nascar drivers, stat!
Re:What's your point? (Score:3, Interesting)
1. it's automatially a bad thing
2. it's automatically a bad thing for girls
Not true. Nobody seems to be concerned that men outnumber women in suicides (in developed countries, with the exception of Chine -- if you count them as developed), or that men outnumber women as drug users, or that most of the people in jail are men, or that most garbagemen (garbagepeople, sorry
Re:What's your point? (Score:1)
I think the conclusion might be called feminism.
Re:What's your point? (Score:2)
Re:What's your point? (Score:1)
Regarding men in jails, what are the statistics over many decades, or centuries for that matter? Haven't men *always* been the majority? How is this suddenly new now?
WRT jobs, welcome to social conditioning. There very few women who do garbage. There are also comparatively few who wor
Re:What's your point? (Score:2)
-stormin
Re:Wonder why? (Score:2)
Programmer A: "Good lord, what is wrong with Laura's breasts!? That's only triple D cups, max!"
Team leader: "Ok, note to art team...'bigger breasts'. Check. Ok then, why no girls in the gaming industry?"
Programmer A: (Scratches head)
Programmer B: "No idea."
Programmer C: "Perhaps they aren't any good at it?"
I can't remember
Perception (Score:3, Insightful)
In less developed countries, game-playing women are perceived as lazy, hence reducing their chances of finding mates.
Honestly, I'm surprised Ms Fulton titled her keynote "The Best Defense... Why Gender Doesn't Matter (As Much As You Might Think)". If gender really doesn't matter, then why would the general public care of 10% or 99% of the game developers are female?
Re:Perception (Score:1)
Re:Perception (Score:2)
Re:Perception (Score:2)
Re:Perception (Score:2)
Re:Perception (Score:2)
Re:Perception (Score:2)
Re:Perception (Score:2)
Reduce their chances? What do you think the chances of a gamer girl being picked at E3? In fact, their game playing would add to their attractiveness.
Re:Perception (Score:1)
They don't.
Re:Perception (Score:2)
I think in more developed countries, game-playing women are perceived as nerds, hence reducing their chances of finding mates.
Reducing? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of single male nerds looking for a woman. Or hoping for a woman, at least. Perhaps that's the problem.
Re:Perception (Score:2)
Unfortunately, it is indeed the whole "hoping" for a woman bit that makes it hard for a lot of nerdy guys to find a real life female nerd -- a lot of us (myself excluded at present) are busy "hoping" for a hot ma
Re:Perception (Score:1)
!!!!
The End is surely near! Make peace with whatever gods you worship and beg forgiveness for your many sins! AIEEEEEEEE!!!
Re:Perception (Score:2)
Because there are three types of discrimination/racism/sexism -- positive, negative, and nonexistant. Negative discrimination occurs then the person perceived to have the upper hand is of a group designated as "the aggressor" (usually white men) as opposed to "the victim" (usually !("the aggressor" || "overachieving Asians") ). Positive discrimination occurs when a policy of active di
Re:Perception (Score:2)
Re:Perception (Score:1)
No. Because game-playing women are going to want a mate that shares their interest. There are more than enough "nerdy" men who would date a "nerdy" girl in a heartbeat. How do you think I met my wife? We've been gaming together for years now.
Re:Perception (Score:1)
When people (especially guys) found out I was into gaming, the responses I got were positive. I wasn't labeled a "nerd" and I haven't had problems finding a "mate". I also have a degree in computer science. By your generalizations, I should be living in a basement somewhere, cast away by society. Hate to tell you, but I'm happily married with friends and a happy, well-rounded life that includes gaming on a regular basis.
...In shooters, at least... (Score:1)
Most of the women I know can't stand shooters or most RPGs, but give them puzzle or platform jumpers and they're as happy as me with Oblivion.
Re:...In shooters, at least... (Score:1)
I see that my female friends (not all but some) sit near me while the others ridicule my game playing habits (including shooters), not too near, mind. They watch out of the corner of their eye, i'm sure that it is their own perception of gaming that stops her having a go and having some fun.
My girlfriend maintains she cant stand stand RPGs, she tells me the story and gameplay is dull and slow. But after a couple of beers she gets intrigued.
"kill that one" she will say,
"I cant kill him just yet because
Social != Gamer (Score:2)
Sadly, long-term gamers are the exact opposite of 'social', so still no sex for them.
Re:Social != Gamer (Score:1)
Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:1)
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:2)
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:2)
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:3, Interesting)
The little light-bulb went on for a friend of mine when his sister with a Ph.D in computational physics was hired by a high-end as "a fukin' booth-babe! A Demo Dame! What kinda sh** is that?!" as he'd say with considerable outrage in his voice. And quite right too -- when you help put your sister through the best schools, she gets the degrees and demonstrates the prowess and formulates important (physics/math) problems and writes the code and brings in the grants and gets the postdocs and --- then the
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:2)
Rage that his highly-educated sisted TOOK a job as a booth-bunny?
You fail to see this from the "business" angle. People don't get hired because of their skills - They get hired because their skills can make the company money
In the case of a software dev env
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:1)
If your friend had a "hot" sister [with a Ph.D in computational physics], the company could best use her skills not by stuffing her in a cubicle, but by parading her around in a skimpy outfit. Four weeks out of 52 "lost", but sex sells.
So then why doesn't the company put her on the product's physics engine team for 40-odd weeks out of the year and just have her do the booth bunny thing during the cons?
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:1)
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:2)
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:1)
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:5, Insightful)
I obviously can't speak for other girls, but I'm in this field because I like it. I get to dress casually (long skirts, tall socks, and comfy shoes!), play with code, and game or read Slashdot during breaks. I won't claim to be a particularly good coder -- hey, I'm still a student here -- but I've never found myself thinking that having a little something extra between my legs would make my job faster or easier.
It does, however, irk me when people (not you specifically, but far too many others) repeatedly bemoan or otherwise find occasion to rant about how few women there are in IT. If more women want to get into the field, they're welcome, but going on and on about how terrible it is for us poor little girls who actually have to *gasp* work with or even *double gasp* talk to male colleagues is just going to scare people of both genders away. Why not just shut up about it? Why not just let people choose what they want to do and leave them to it? A few more pairs of breasts around the office may be a welcome sight to the average guy, but if the girls don't want to be there, maybe they shouldn't be.
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:2)
Because they can make a living by saying that.
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:2)
Only one of the programmers is female. But quite a few artists, sound engineers, and producers are. Some of them come from traditionally female-strong fields like Art and Web Development. Others came in through their strong project management skills. Still other just got jobs in QA like the rest of us, and worked their way up.
And in fact, far less than half of the company consists of coders.
There are o
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:1)
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:1)
MOD PARENT UP (Score:2)
Re: The pastor (Score:2)
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:2)
Grab.
Re:Girls aren't interested in programming (Score:2, Funny)
Brenda Laurel, bring back Purple Moon! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Brenda Laurel, bring back Purple Moon! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Brenda Laurel, bring back Purple Moon! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Brenda Laurel, bring back Purple Moon! (Score:2)
Re:Brenda Laurel, bring back Purple Moon! (Score:2)
Re:Brenda Laurel, bring back Purple Moon! (Score:2)
Yeah, and Blue Moon promptly went under. Maybe she should have taken her cues from Roberta instead.
-Eric
Just have female characters (Score:1)
Especially in online games (BF2, CS Source etc) a female character would NOT be hard to do at all.
Not a solution, but a start.
Re:Just have female characters (Score:1)
Re:Just have female characters (Score:1)
Re:Just have female characters (Score:2)
Also, in single-player games, the protagonist is often meant to be one specific person rather than a fully customizable hero. I don't see people begging for the option to play a male version of Lara Croft in Tomb Raider, so why should there be a female option in other, similar games?
I mean, I like being able to choose the gender of my character
Casual means casual (Score:4, Insightful)
Being casual does not make you that bothered. I ride bicycles, but I don't want to be a bicycle engineer. I would even say I love cars, but I don't care about their engines past how loud they are and how fast they can go. That's a casual relationship too.
Why would girls who play Sudoku care in any way shape or form about programming Sudoku games?
We can run around these circles all day about why girls play games or why they don't, why they program or why they don't, but the end result is the same. Unless someone can fundamentally change the nature of programming, or indeed, development, they aren't going to do it.
I have stopped caring about how many girls play games or how many girls develop games. It's not a big deal.
Re:Casual means casual (Score:2)
You obviously don't know the women I know.
True equality requires complete equality (Score:3, Interesting)
From the UK [statistics.gov.uk]: "Men outnumber women in all major crime categories. Between 85 and 95 per cent of offenders found guilty of burglary, robbery, drug offences, criminal damage or violence against the person are male. Although the number of offenders are relatively small, 98 per cent of people found guilty of, or cautioned for, sexual offences are male"
Or how about garbagemen (garbagepeople) or coal miners? Why are people never concerned about women not making headways there?
Riddle me that, Batman.
Re:True equality requires complete equality (Score:2, Interesting)
"It is self-evident that the low number of men in nursing is the result of systematic discrimination against men by the sexist women who dominate the profession. Without affirmative action, the entrenched and dominant female hierarchy will never allow men to compete as equals. Hospitals should stop hiring femal
You are forgetting one important thing (Score:1, Troll)
a) they are not expected to support a family alone, but are more likely to spend several years at home, so such an investment of time and money is less worthwhile
b) it is extremely difficult to take maternity leave for a year or whatever in the middle of med school or residency, wherea
Re:You are forgetting one important thing (Score:2)
Few women in engineering = systematic discrimination against women.
Few men in nursing = systematic discrimination against women.
Huh?
Re:You are forgetting one important thing (Score:2)
Re:You are forgetting one important thing (Score:2)
First, even though another reply to your post says
I agree with you that discrimination against women could (not saying it is) be the reason for both those things. It's not inherently impossible for one thing (discrimination against women) to have multiple effects...
I also
Business Situation (Score:4, Insightful)
Back in college (6 years ago), we had similar ratios in all the CS classes, and even in the upper division physics classes. However, my upper division social classes were DOMINATED by women.
I don't want to sound sexist or mysognistic, but I don't think we need more women in engineering any more than we need more male social workers. I think we need more people doing exactly what they want to do; if that fits a pattern, so be it; just as long as we don't restrict people from being in any profession.
McD
Re:Business Situation (Score:1)
Re:Business Situation (Score:1)
Re:Business Situation (Score:1)
I think one avenue that has clearly not been approached and promoted enough is combining sociology and psychology successfully with game programming. Will Wright seems to get it - I bet The Sims family
Who Cares Who Makes the Games? (Score:1)
If women don't want to make games, that's fine by me and I don't see the problem. I, as a consumer, care only about the end-result product.
Re:Who Cares Who Makes the Games? (Score:1)
There will be more women developers when... (Score:1)
Did anyone else read it as... (Score:2, Funny)
"Lara, you're going to have to swim through this shark infested water to get to the next ruin."
"I certainly hope not. Blood attracts sharks quicker than anything else."
"My god, you're injured? Don't you have any medical kits l-- oh."
<icily>"Quite."
From inside the games industry... (Score:1, Informative)
Re:From inside the games industry... (Score:1)
I know a lot of female gamers... (Score:3, Interesting)
Regarding women as programmers, I think that there are two things to consider:
a) programmers are geeky and particularly at the moment, teenagers frown on people being smart, as the opposite of cool. Women tend to be more socially aware (or socially malleable) than their male counterparts in high school, so while they may quietly get good grades, they probably won't choose a geeky path like CS in college.
b) there are still, believe it or not, teachers who discourage women from fields related to math or science. I was lucky enough not to have that problem in high school (now a fading ten years in the past), but I have heard plenty of first hand stories on the subject.
Funny sense of Deja Vu (Score:1)
You know, if women spent half as much time actually designing games as they do bitching about the lack of women designing games, we wouldn't have this problem. But, then again, I guess they're used to having someone do everything FOR them.
-Eric
Re:Funny sense of Deja Vu (Score:1)
Heaven forbid we get in the way of their preconceptions. It might make the articles take longer to write.
Re:Funny sense of Deja Vu (Score:1)
The problem lies elsewhere (Score:2, Insightful)
So girls aren't keen to join? That's probably because they have too much SENSE to join the world of perpetual crunch time and all the other misery we always hear about.
Girls who love mainstream games are perfectly capable of getting in there themselves. There's no point in trying to force others into it. I'm a female game designer and programmer and I would be thoroughly MISERABLE if you tried to hire me to work on yo
Why does it need to change? (Score:2)
Why promote a sex into a certain field. Women have obviously chosen that IT is not a field for them. In a very generalized sense women do not dig IT. So what? Many women do not appreciate that field while many men do. Is this a problem, no it is not.
Women and men are different, maybe it is how they are raised, but in the broad sense the case can be made that