The Future of IT in America? 715
tomocoo asks: "As a young person considering various choices for the future career I'd like to pursue, IT and computer science continually reappear near the top of the list of fields I'm interested in. In fact, one of my only hesitations is the suspected ease by which programming and other related tasks can be sent to other countries for pennies on the dollar. How much of a threat do the readers of Slashdot feel outsourcing is to the American programmer? Should I and other young people be pursuing something more specialized or have I simply been watching too much CNN?"
From a Services Perspective.. (Score:3, Interesting)
I do a little coding. Some stays in house, some gets GPLd.
But from a services perspective, most of my clients have migrated to my company because we don't have tier 1 tech support, we have engineers- and our customers *hate* doing business with a company that offshores their support or engineering staff.
Every single client I have is a refugee from a services company with offshoring. Every Single One. They pay more... some times a lot more... for the services we provide. But we are also a lot more accountable to them.
FWIW- I've been successful in making a good living by being the opposite of the offshoring trend. But I think to make this work in the market place you have to run your own little business rather than seek employment from someone else.
On the down side- prepare to be awoken at 4:30am by a client calling your cell phone... because you have the shift... and both of your other engineers are in the Bahamas or Canada vacationing.
IT is still worth it (Score:3, Interesting)
My prediction is that as we get out of the Bush dark ages, corrective measures will be passed to stop certain forms of offshore activity. Additionally, consumer backlash is very real these days and as the requirement for high level technology rises in general so will the demand for those who can make it work correctly.
A lot of companies are in fact abandoning or at least reconsidering their offshore initiatives. I have several clients who have offshore operations and they are scaling them back and bringing some of that work back home.
Why is this important? I support a product called Microsoft Small Business Server 2003. I am one of the leading experts on this product today. It is something you can literally buy off the shelf and setup easily. One would think that is the end.
In translation, that means that we sell a $4700 application suite for $1500. These are full products that require enterprise expertise to use them. Small Business Financials is a friendly name for Great Plains (yes, THAT, Great Plains), and MS CRM 3.0 Small Business has no feature limitations on itself either besides the maximum number of users.
If you take a typical small business owner who uses Quickbooks and throw them into this environment, they are lost. Make no mistake, they demand these applications from us and they do love them when they are customized.
I think the next era of highly complex networks is about to begin. A competent software developer specializing in making this process easier will make a killing. I know how much money my company is set to make this year and I am truly amazed at just how many untapped markets there are.
There is a lot of opportunity in IT, but I think you have to own a business to truly succeed. Working for someone else will not make it happen. That means, take some basic business courses in addition to IT when you have the opportunity.
Good luck!
Go for "Software Architecture" for 200, Alex (Score:4, Interesting)
"Programming" conjures up visions of some guy with pale complexion staring into his monitor, banging away at the keyboard, trying to fix yet another bug. Or, in a better light, maybe reading some API and/or design specification and banging away at the keyboard trying to implement it. A "programmer" can be thought of as a construction worker.
"Software Architect" is what you get when you take away the specific implementation: the programming language, the operating system, the specific database. What you're left with is the high-level big-picture design. You get to draw boxes, arrows, flowcharts, ping-pong diagrams... you get to be the guy up at the marker board smiling at the camera, pointing to a complex diagram, your vision for the product, that you don't have to spend nights implementing because that's what they pay the keyboard-bashers for. A "software architect" can be thought of as the high-paid and lauded building architect.
In a sense, software architecture is the creative side, while converting the design to code is the mechanical side.
I'm not even sure you want to talk about "going into IT". I thought IT was more like the maintenance guys of the building after it's built. Like in the UK's "The IT Crowd". It certainly wouldn't be as rewarding to me as programmer or software architect. In any case, even if all this does fall under the general heading "IT", you can at least narrow down what you want to do.
Anyway, what's this have to do with outsourcing? I think software architecture is what you want to get into, since I firmly believe that is what the US is not going to outsource -- or at least not to the extent that keyboard-bashing has.
That being said, it definitely doesn't hurt to know at least one major programming language -- either Java, or (shudder) even C#. That way you at least have some idea of the common idioms of the code, and then you don't have to specify every nut and bolt in your diagram.
--Rob
Re:The industry isn't that bad. (Score:2, Interesting)
Go for it (Score:5, Interesting)
1) Timezone
2) More experience (developers there are often promoted to management too quickly)
3) Superior command of English (they'll speak it, you need to do so better)
4) Assorted cultural advantages
You will need to be able to talk to people and sort out requirements to be more valuable. The guy in India just can't sit across the table from a user of whatever you are making and discuss options, quickly estimate 'lots of effort' or 'pretty easy', and help the users tell you what to create.
At the end of the day, you'll still need to be able to write code, but you'll need to do a whole lot more as well. These days, I'm thinking that the 'whole lot more' may be more fun, but that's just me.
As for the guy who joked 'speak hindi', I'd point out that there are dozens of languages in India and when Indians from different parts of the country speak to eachother, they usually do so in English.
Consider the source... (Score:1, Interesting)
The real question you should be asking yourself is what do you truly enjoy doing naturally? Take away every task that any given job can consist of and break it down to your personality traits. If you like problem-solving then look at the types of jobs that can fulfill your needs as a problem-solver. If you like helping people, consider the kinds of jobs where you will have more interactions and impact on people directly. College and high-school students tend to think more linearly, as if taking a job in a hot profession will mean success. The truth is that the best way to be successful is to maximize your desire to do your job and do it well; otherwise you may as well work at McDonald's.
Re:There will be a job for you (Score:3, Interesting)
The difference being your expectations. If you are expecting a fantasy land of 20 companies offering you $70k jobs the day you graduate, then you are stuck in the heydays of the 90's. Do what you love knowing that you will always have a job somewhere in the IT industry.
SQL is the way to go! (Score:4, Interesting)
Too much Lou Dobbs (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:There is shortage of good talent in Silicon Val (Score:4, Interesting)
I think it's all a matter of taste, but if I weren't floating around stodgy old academic institutions, I'd be looking at shiny new tech companies.
I'm not industry analyst, but I'd say that you're right on the money.
Re:Starting Salaries (Score:3, Interesting)
You may also notice in the same study that more jobs were offered in IT than registered nurses, and I dont think anyone who is a registered nurse is complaining for lack of employment.
The fact remains, it is not difficult to get a job in IT. You or someone you know may have had some bad luck, but the industry as a whole is very healty; and when comparing IT graduates with those of other industries is nothing short of spectacular.
Re:If it's what you want to do, do it. (Score:1, Interesting)
Wake up and smell the coffee! (Score:4, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:You don't want Computer Science (Score:3, Interesting)
As a person with a Bachelors in Computer Engineering, I can tell you that the first year of my major or the Computer Science major (which has the exact same classes the first year), is mostly about Math (Calculus), Science (either Chemistry or Physics or both), Electives (e.g. Humanities/Social Sci) and Intro to programming classes. You might have to take a discrete (sp?) math class first year also. These are largely designed to be weeder classes to get rid of those that can't cut it as an engineer and for the most part have nothing to do with what you will do after graudation as a programmer. They are however very useful as weeder classes. So, I agree with the GP. The first year is more about Math and Science than hardcore programming. You don't get into games, robotics, graphics, ai, or databases until year three or four. Of course when I say that I'm not talking about using a database in an application or even creating simple games like tic tac toe or concentration, these could be done in the intro programming classes, but the theory behind db, ai, and graphics are certainly not covered until year three or four.
And yet... (Score:1, Interesting)
Their currency is currently a paper currency, subject to the inflation / interest based Central Bank system pioneered by the wonderful Rothschild family (originated by Mayer Amschel Bauer, renamed MA Rothschild later). However, the Swedish Krona is trading at nearly 25% higher than the USD... or was... currently 6 or 7 krona get you 10 dollars... and the price is only dropping on the dollar.
If you recall, Volvo was a swedish company, and Ford, despite buying them out, realized that they had a lot to gain by letting the swedes do their thing without screwing them over (too much). As a result, Ford is doing okay... and selling product... GM... heh... well GM ain't doin' so hot. (Plus, nationalized healthcare, I believe, is helping Volvo keep the single most killer cost of business down... unlike US based labor markets that tax the employee like nuts, yet offer nothing, forcing the company to offer benefits, healthcare and retirement.)
The fiat currency is what is killing everything, however. And until the geeks don't wake up, they'll keep working their asses off to pay the interest on the money in their pockets.
Ever wonder why solid assets retain their value... ahem... "appreciate" in value?
That house you bought for 100k before the Iraq war might be worth 150k now... why? Oh I dunno, because the "federal" reserve (read "Privately Held United States Central Bank") issued nearly 120% inflation in one brazen stroke to fund the war. So while you might get 150k back for your house, you really will not have gained a thing. You're thinking in numbers, instead you should be thinking in "relative" or "perceived" value. If the inflation went up 120% that means there is double the money "in play" (which is understandable as the "fed" has recently STOPPED printing the M3 report which issues how much currency is issued and in what forms...)
Lets say you sell your house, at 180k, you had bought it at 100k, and you paid it all off so you get what you sell it at. Now, according to the no longer published figures, to retain its buying value, the house should sell at 220k... (100k +120%), however selling at 180k, while your house "appreciated" it didn't beat inflation. Yep, you LOST money. But what do I know, you got more paper, right?? that makes you... uhhh... rich?...
Oh well, I've only watched the feces pile up... and everyone defends the system to the death.
It makes me feel like I'm awake but still trapped in the matrix.
Re:Learn a new language? (Score:5, Interesting)
I would say that Chinese would be the best one to learn overall. The Chinese I have known tend to take it as a compliment if you speak even some Chinese.
The Japanese I have known seem to be offended, even if your Japanese is perfect. Plus, if your resume does not have you in the precise little required sub-group, they won't even consider you for a particular job. And I'm not even getting into the whole racism issue. The Chinese aren't perfect, but I've been treated a damn sight better by them than any of the Japanese I have ever dealt with.
***note to mods: This is not meant as a troll. I am simply explaining my own personal experience...
Re:Jobs That Can't Be "Outsourced"? (Score:3, Interesting)
Students, please note the above response (Score:1, Interesting)
I started out with a degree in compsci working for 12K a year and doing grunt work. Worked 60 hour weeks.
Its 25 years later and I'm in charge of the technology for a fortune 1000 sized firm, I make $150K and I work 45 hour weeks.
Life sucks when you get out of college for 2 or 3 years. Big deal. If you're not willing to struggle a little bit, then you deserve to flipping burgers. Like this guy.
Final piece of advice. Don't get "certified" in anything if you want to do anything more than be a sysadmin. Get your B.S. in compsci/ims from a big-time university (doesn't matter which), work hard, develop a way to communicate like a professional, and you'll be at six figures within 10 years.
Or you can whine about the reason you have a sucky job is because you have "ethics". It's too bad this little whiner won't get taken out by some virulent disease, because I know he's making me sick to my stomach. Little puke.
Re:There will be a job for you (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't belive that for a second. I have a BS in EECE/CompSci, MS in Physics, and took
all of the courses to get a Ph.D. in Computer Eng. I have 15 years unix experience,
10 years hands on sysadmin experience, can design and write software, and in fact
hardware at the device level.
When I was in the Ph.D. program, people from other countries were getting the internships,
job offers, etc. The four (out of almost 200) grad students who were "local" to this
country did not get jack, myself included. I was told by a friend of mine who went to
work at Intel that they were not hiring US citizens, as it costs too damn much.
So there, I said it. I was born here, went to college here, gained expeience here...
And 1.5 years and 1000s of resumes (with college degrees and experience and all) later,
I am still without employment in the US.
Like the other comment mentioned, knowing a second language may not be a bad thing right now.
Global perspective (Score:2, Interesting)
I agree with other posts that first and foremost you should choose something you enjoy doing. Poor and happy is better than rich and miserable.
Once you've cleared that criterion, I think there is always a lucrative niche for technical people that have language skills (e.g. Chinese, not Perl) and are willing to work in the global economy. I'm an engineer, I have three languages, and have worked as an expat for companies in three countries.
There are thousands of MBAs who speak Chinese. There are vastly fewer people who have technical ability and can function overseas. Do a couple of years locally polishing your tech skillz, then you can go abroad as a project manager. Do a good job and soon you will be asked to decide whether to stay in a tech track or continue upward in management. Even companies that outsource need competent people who can run the show.
My recommendation: If you enjoy CompSci, then go CompSci major and Chinese or Japanese minor. How to choose Chinese vs Japanese? Trying firing up your favorite ethnic pr()n sites and see what tickles your fancy. Remember, do what you enjoy... :->
Re:And yet... (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously. If the government borrows (with interest) money (which is unconstitutional also, but that is besides the point, i'm sure that the US constitution is "inaccurate" for your purposes also), and then uses that money to pay its mounting war debt, then please enlighten me how it is that we can pay off that debt?
I can fully understand your love of the debt based fiat money system. You've probably read plenty of brochures and very little of the writings of our founding fathers or even those preceding them.
You remind me of the American "Christians"(televangelists like Pat Robertson notwithstanding) of today, screaming for the blood of Iraqis, Venezuelans and whoever else is the enemy flavor of the month based on the constant repeating of 9/11 9/11 9/11 remember 9/11... on news, in speeches, you name it.
You are well indoctrinated my young "friend". Which means I'm going to try to talk to you until I'm blue in the face. You return back to your 2006 economics manuals, while I'll try to figure out why it is that Eric Blair's 1984 Proletariat is so prevalent in the USA...
Re:Go for "Software Architecture" for 200, Alex (Score:4, Interesting)
Is software architecture all about flowcharts and design specs but the architect not a competent programmer? Not in my shop (we make insurance and accounting software). A truly competent architect will be deeply acquainted with various design methadologies, techniques, tips & tricks for that various technologies/paradigms being implemented, industry trends and will have been through quite a lot in the trenches before they can truly design a system like ours that scales to tens of thousands of concurrent users daily and millions of financial & non-financial transactions per day.
We get applications that think they are an architect because they know what the Factory or Strategy patterns are but can't write explain or write code that explains why one would use a quicksort over a bubblesort or why one would use a list traversal over a binary search for finding sorted information. The same people say they are competent in distributed architectures but can't explain when to use SOAP and WebServices instead of a custom TCP/IP server or how a message-based system works. They can't explain the difference between a Factory and an Abstract Factory or any suitable definition and implementation of the Provider and Observer design patterns. I'm not talking about rocket science. I don't expect my architects to be one with design patterns but if they put on their resume that they are expert with patterns they better impress me regarding that topic.
The same people can explain the difference between
They can't explain (or more importantly, demonstrate) very well how to both invoke and prevent against cross-site scripting attacks and SQL-Injection attacks alike. While a few applicants appeared to be well acquainted with preventing SQL injection attacks neither could write code that has the vulnerability or explain certain practices/mindsets that can contribute to both the cause and the solution to the problem. When asked how they would design a destributed component over a network, they would write "chatty" interfaces and thus, consume more resources, network bandwith, and impede performance and act surprised when asked if there was a better way.
Many have the attitude that they know everything and what they know is how they'll do anything. While not wrong if they are truly that competent, in general, a good architect will be open to new ideas and will refuse to lock themselves into a box. I don't want a COBOL architect on my team that hasn't opened their mind to newer ideas and methadologies, more importantly, an architect that full well is aware they don't know everything and always double-checks and verifies their designs/ideas are the right way vs. assuming such is the architect that gets my praise and will have the best success anywhere they go.
When asked to about transactional system (both at the database level and at via compensating resource managers for non-database transactions) only one demonstrating any understanding of the topic, problems, concerns, and good design skills relating to the topic. Others had simply avoided using transactions for the past 15 years of the "architectural" career. They don't udnerstand the nature of insurance accounting, and related banking, I suppose. About all were uncomfortable discussing transactions and transactional systems/concerns during the interview (to their defense, no one ever made a point of it on their resume either, at least; the one guy who did was truly amazing
my own 2 cents... (Score:2, Interesting)
- Yes, jobs are moving abroad. But most of the time they are what are known as "low value-added" jobs - not the leading edge, cool, revolutionary new programming but the mundane old stuff such as debugging, maintenance, hotlining (gasp), etc... A lot of what is done abroad is actually adapting American or European programs to local languages.
- High value-added jobs will probably still be found in the states for a few years to come. Why is this? Well as mentioned above, the training you will receive in the US will always carry some kudos (here or abroad) because of the US's reputation as a technology leader. Secondly, knowledge in IT tends to be geographically concentrated (see Route 128, SV, etc). This is in large part due to the *nature of knowledge*. I'll pass you the boring theory but basically, interaction with your peers, frequently possible in such an environment as SV, has been found to be very important in learning about new techniques, languages, etc. Also as there is a concentration of skilled labourers in those areas, firms keep wanting to settle there (self-reinforcing geographic concentration)
- Excellent coders will always find work. All right, you may have to compromise and be willing to move abroad if required. But if you're good at what you do, keep up to date with the latest languages etc, you will always find work.
- IT is everywhere. Even if you do not end up working in the industry per se, ALL industries use computers, and there are a lot of possibilities in that. Take for example the bio-technology industry: there is a shortage of biologists who know how to code, so a lot of their bioinformatics development is done by IT graduates.
Now my advice to you, young grasshopper: go into IT if you really want to. Believe me, unless you love it, the many many years at college as well as the hours devoted in your spare time learning new languages and garnering experience on your own projects etc, will be pointless: you'll end up not liking your job, and chances are you won't be very good at it (there is a strong element of passion required, I believe, to be the best at your job). If you want money, go into consulting, bio-technology, or run for Congress.
If this is what you really want to do, my tips would be:
- Start learning now: there is no substitute for experience. You can already pick up the basics - it will make college easier anyway
- Keep up to date. Languages evolve, and it's always worth keeping up to date with what is relevant in the marketplace nowadays
- Open Source software is an excellent opportunity to learn (if not only by looking at code other have written and seeing how stuff works, but also by adding your own bits and getting feedback on your work). Your contributions also work as a signal to the marketplace: when writing your CV you can add that you contributed to X/Y/Z project, and your potential employer can actually track down what you wrote and be astounded by how wonderful you are, decide to hire you on the shot, and give you a billion dollars (well maybe not the last part)
- And just to be safe, learn mandarin...
Re:Wake up and smell the coffee! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Jobs in the Free Market? (Score:4, Interesting)
The steel industry is gone here, thus billy joel's song allen town .
The mercantile industry is not totally gone yet, but its going to china and malaysia .
Farming got so bad here that many bands got together to do farmaid for the
bankrupt farmers and we now subsidize thru tax money some farms by paying them
to not grow anything at all .
GM recently shuttered 5 major facilities, and opened a new one in India,
with more to come from all US auto manufacturers .
When GM closed the plants here Delphi a supplier also had huge layoffs,
and other suppliers got hit by trickle down effect as well .
It is my opinion and that of others as well that soon the US will make nothing here .
We will have zero manufacturing, and with that the engineering for it will follow suit .
India and China have engineers being trained "right here" in our schools , funded
with our tax dollars + the students tuition . Yes, some tax dollars still go to pay for
the university and its expansion . Look it up, me and my frieds did .
Wal-mart is building the largest building on earth in china for direct warehousing
of products to come from china .
Like in rome, all the ppl cared about before the fall was "Bread and Circuses"
Oh well...
Ex-MislTech
Re:A job in IT vs A job in comp sci (Score:1, Interesting)
I e-mailed 10 different companies in February of 2006, and received respones from 3. I had a personal interview with one, and phone interviews with the others. I was offered positions at all three companies.
I'm a 1st semester junior at a technical university, with about 4 months of tech support in a call center experience. The fact that I had 3 different companies to choose an offer from with very competing wages, translated into a very healthy IT industry in my mind.
Buggy whip makers? They're online.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Hi!
Sorry, but you happened to trigger one of my pet rants. People DO still make buggy whips [smuckersharness.com]--and they make buggies, and carts, and drays, and all sorts of horse-drawn conveyances. And they have web sites. [bennington.co.uk]
And since I have some knowledge of how prosperous some buggy manufacturers [smuckersharness.com] are, and also recruit and hire [lutron.com] electrical and computer engineers, I'd venture to guess that the original poster was correct--if you're good at what you do, you'll succeed at whatever you do. I'd be willing to bet money that the family that owns Smucker's Harness does substantially better than your average electrical engineer.
Cheers!
John Murdoch
(Who spent the late afternoon breaking a pony to drive a carriage, and has two buggy whips on his shopping list.)
My viewpoint (Score:2, Interesting)
Sure Sherlock, we Mexicans will destroy US economy (Score:4, Interesting)
The rich countries were going to be swamped, the jobs were going to be gone, disaster could not be averted.
20 years later Spain and Portugal are prosperous countries, France and Germany are struggling.
But you will find impossible to find any sane economist of politician that would blame Portuguese or Spanish immigration for the problems of France and Germany.
Most likely you will find that the protectionist policies of France and Germany combined with a rigid job market are to blame. Most serious imigration studies (i.e. not sponsored by Neonazis) say that immigration has a positive net effect in the society that receives the immigrants.
You say that unskilled Mexicans take US jobs. Well, if my unskilled compatriots can take jobs that US people could be doing then you should question how bad your education system is, since unskilled people can take those jobs (you guys have an average of High School education or thereabouts. If we can beat you with 6 or 8 years less of education, either we are tremendsouly clever or you are brain dead. Most likely we are not competing for the same jobs).
Mexicans take the jobs that nobody else wants (cleaners, dish washers, gardeners, cotton or tomato pickers, etc) filling inneficiencies in the US economic system (if the Mexicans did not do those jobs, who would Mr Sherlock?)
And Mexicans do it gladly expecting little or nothing in return. Until now at least, we are a patient bunch. We demand nothing for long, but once we get tired we get down to bussiness to get what is rightly ours.
Mexicans (and other poor immigrants) are not taking skilled or semiskilled jobs, they are taking the jobs they can do (unskilled ones), so square this circle for me Sherlock:
-Who would do the jobs Mexicans are doing now?
-How would you remove 10 million or more people doing productive work?
-Who will be rushing to cover those positions once the Mexicans were stopped or gone?
I really wish that the US goverment and racists and xenophobes that circle them were really serious about building that 2000km wall in the Rio Bravo.
Nothing would provide me more pleasure than them retreating once the people doing productive work in the US, the families that otherwise would not have a clean house or a nice nanny looking after their children and in general the people benefitting from Mexicans' work in the US, once these people gave the xenophobes a reality check.
But the US government is not stupid. They know that by pretending to be though without actually doing anything they get to have their cake and eat it: on the one hand they placate the xenophobes, on the other hand they get fresh workers (never mind if a few hundred die while crossing the border every year) badly needed by the US economy (hint Sherlock: if there were no jobs in the US Mexicans will not go there. We are badly treated and insulted in the US, it is the need that make us go there).
Finally, before you blame the Mexican goverment for not taking care of its citizens, I just want to remind you that when we elected our first democratic leader your embassador backed a murderous general that executed it. That was followed by 70 or so years of a "perfect dictatorship" as one of the greatest writers in Latinamerica put it.
Your country keeps our countries poor, and reaps the cheap labour, pretending to be offended by the "invassion" in the process. A real work of evil genius.