French Parliament Fights iPod and iTunes 323
f00lforb00l writes "According to an article in New York Times, the French parliament is considering legislation which would require that the iPod also be able to use music from services other than the iTunes Store." From the article: "The outcome of the debate, which began as an update to French copyright law, is far from clear. But taken to one logical conclusion, amendments to the copyright bill could lead Apple, the market leader, to leave the French music business, said Jonathan Arber, a research analyst in London at the technology consultancy Ovum. 'My gut feeling is that Apple will simply pull out of France if these amendments get through,' Mr. Arber said. 'Weighed against breaking their business model for all markets, it doesn't make sense for Apple to continue operating with the iPod and iTunes in France.'" Update: 03/17 15:46 GMT by Z : A previous story covering this topic may also be of interest to you. Sorry, folks.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Pulling out of France might not be too painful, but pulling out of the EU altogether? They're bound to feel that...
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:2)
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, I'm not really up on this sort of thing, but could not France then take its case to the EU, and petition the EU to bring a similar case?
No. Apple is not (as far as anyone has determined) breaking any laws. They won their case in France and the EU has no reason to think they are breaking the law. This is not about Apple breaking the law, this is about France passing a new law to specifically force Apple to do something they desire. It's like a town passing a law that says Bob has to stop wearing th
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:2, Insightful)
This is why the Maryland legislature laws against Wal Mart will ultimately fail.
Incidentally, doesn't the French legislature have more pressing issues like say getting rid of their ill-conceived 'right to work' laws?
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:3, Funny)
Sacre-bleu! You mean I could get fired for being incompetent? Zees eez an outrage!
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:4, Insightful)
At the risk of going off-topic.... It's even worse than that. Under the new law, you can only get fired if you are under the age of 26, have worked less than 2 years, and are incompetant. What's hilarious about the situation is the law was passed because companies refuse to hire people because they cannot fire them... so there are no jobs. Unemployment among people under 26 is at 23%. The government tries to give the kids a chance to prove themselves that would make companies eager to hire them.. and the kids riot...
The Law of Unintended Consequences has wreaked havoc in France with their unfirable 35-hour workforce. Unemployment a problem? Make it so you can't fire people! It sounds great, but like most of economics, something that seems good at level one does the exact opposite at level two. So unemployment has skyrocketed.
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:4, Informative)
It's more like France passing a pro-consumer law to prevent vendor lock-in. Oh wait, it's not like that, it is that.
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:5, Interesting)
And iTunes works with all music formats except the MS, so loading the things would be fairly easy....
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:3, Interesting)
iPods yes, iTunes no. Many countries still can't buy from iTunes, France would go back on that list. French credit card and/or IP and you'd be rejected.
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:2, Informative)
Or simply do what a large proportion of iPod users (including myself) do, and simply encode their own mp3s from CD.
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems like France is the perfect market. They have 20% unemployment for people under 30... what else are they kids gonna do? Riot?
surrendering a country is bad... (Score:5, Insightful)
My opinion is that pulling out of the france market :
1) is a serious blow : 2% of a market where you are the world leader must represent an awfull lot of money. The kind of money that would make sales/marketing people salivate.
2) Surrendering a country means, letting the competition gain a foothold/strong position where you (ipod/itunes) had a near-monopoly.
Do you think, you could re-enter the market at a later point ?
3) Brand recognition. If you stop selling ipod/itunes songs in france, will the french still think of Apple as cool ? Mmmh, maybee, maybee not...
4) You'll have to open the ipod anyway....a few people (I did) are buying alternative mp3 player because thay want to play open formats, have more interoperability...People won't like the fact that the music they bought can't be played on other places than their ipod (they just don't realize it yet).
Despite looks, a product that can't do half what the concurence does, can't be that cool...
5) would be funny to see what the EU would do about it (Yet, I'm still waiting to see what the EU does to microsoft...I fancy seeing microsoft have to pay a million $ a day till it behaves, it would be fun and a good lesson for others (rich people/corporations shouldn't be above rules)).
And I strongly feel too that :
Though they had a good start and people everywhere loves their product, I highly doubt that Apple will remain the uncontested leader in selling mp3 players/mp3 songs. Other big players/corporations (sony, microsoft, the music industry...) are interested in a (big) share of the juicy market and, one way of the other, they'll get what they want.
When the hipe around the ipod dies, what next ?
There is always a next big thing, you know
Just my 0.02 euros
Re:surrendering a country is bad... (Score:3, Funny)
No, it will be more desireable. The Apple will be the forbidden fruit!
Re:Gee, that could be expensive.. (Score:2)
It still claims that on the US page too. Notice it says up to, and it is true that the new chips are 4x faster on some things.
Let's just get this out of the way... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Let's just get this out of the way... (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah, it's not much, but we gotta keep the stories coming around here you know!
Re:Let's just get this out of the way... (Score:3, Insightful)
"the French parliament is considering legislation which would require that the iPod also be able to use music from services other than the iTunes Store."
Guess what, folks? The iPod will already work with two non-DRM'ed formats that any music store is free to sell! One of them is even the de-facto standard for digital m
Before you make up your mind... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Before you make up your mind... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd have a different opinion, but then it would also be a different situation. What does this have to do with anything?
Re:Before you make up your mind... (Score:5, Interesting)
If Apple was actually abusing its monopoly the way Microsoft did in the 90s--e.g., punishing retailers who sold competing products like with Microsoft's coercive OEM deals--then this would have merit. But Apple hasn't done that (and doesn't need to, they're #1 fair and square). You're totally free to buy a competing product and service.
This is just the French hating Apple for being yet another American company taking over their precious little square of culture on the planet.
Apple will pull out of France (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Apple will pull out of France (Score:2, Funny)
And if they are imported into the US, we can rename them "FreedomPods" and "FreedomTunes".
Re:Apple will pull out of France (Score:2)
It should be noted here.... (Score:5, Interesting)
However, Apple almost immediately surrendered, [pcmag.com] limiting the decibels with a firmware update so they could get the French market back again.
Re:It should be noted here.... (Score:3, Funny)
Somebody please, please put a bullet in that joke, and another in the moderator. When the Simpsons did it, it was funny. When the fucking slashbots repeat it ad nauseum for ten years, its just monumentally boring.
At least come up with your own French-baiting joke. The possibilities are rife.
Actually, the iPod would be *allowed*... (Score:2, Informative)
Interesting ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Any music store that sells in DRM-free mp3 format is completely compatible with the iPod.
What you mean that the stores won't sell in anything other than locked microsoft formats? How is that Apple's fault?
its not any different than (Score:2)
Re:its not any different than (Score:2)
Re:Interesting ... (Score:2, Insightful)
My thought is that it should support open formats - say ogg. (Maybe they're trying to force Apple to license their format with others.) But trying to force someone else's proprietary format - even if it's "popular" with other businesses -
Re:Interesting ... (Score:2)
The DRM isn't open. That should definitely be gotten rid of. Except then the recording industry wouldn't let Apple sell music.
Re:Interesting ... (Score:2)
and iTunes won't sell anything other than locked Apple formats. Who's fault is that?
Re:Interesting ... (Score:2)
Re:Interesting ... (Score:2)
Re:Interesting ... (Score:2)
Re:Interesting ... (Score:2, Insightful)
control (Score:3, Informative)
100% wrong. The iPod supports MP3, AAC, WAV, and AIFF, in -addition- to Fairplay. Any company would not have to pay a single penny to apple to become "compatible" with the iPod if they offered their music in any single one of those formats.
Re:control (Score:2)
Re:Interesting ... (Score:2)
you get a 3750 EUR fine
retarded? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:retarded? (Score:2)
Vive le differance! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Vive le differance! (Score:5, Insightful)
Most people don't see it as being locked in. They see it as actually getting what they wanted out of the device.
I've known several people who just couldn't figure out how to muddle through ripping their own CDs, or fighting wth an MP3 player that they just couldn't figure out, and which either had no control software, or crappy stuff. They weren't interested in figuring out how to download through peer-to-peer, and weren't interested in pirating music.
For those people, what they're paying for is a working user experience that does what they want. They're not interested in the geek perspective of "I could buy an MP3 player cheaper, and I'll be l337 cuz I got no DRM". They couldn't care less about ogg-freaking-vorbis and how it's unencumbered. They don't want to know about the formats of music, the bitrates, or the technical issues about which lossy compression is theoretically better. They want to hear music and not arm-wrestle with technology to get it.
You don't like the iPod? Fine, don't buy one. What Apple does is an exceptional job at is giving people a good user experience that you generally don't have to muddle with. You may pay a premium for it compared to a DIY solution, but if you can't DIY, the cost is worth it. Because saving $50 to find out you can't make it work, is not actually a savings. I knew several people who returned other players after Christmas to get an iPod variant.
I play my iPod shuffle 4-6 hours a day at work. I find the iTunes software to be amazingly easy and uncluttered. Sure, I rip my own MP3s from CD, so I'm not stuck with their proprietary format. I'm thinking of buying a larger iPod, or a second shuffle to keep more data with me music with me for longer trips.
The fact of the matter is, for those people who find it provides real value, the iPod family and iTunes are a good set of products. That's why they're so successful. They're not successful because they're hyped -- they're hyped because they're successful and people want them.
Re:Vive le differance! (Score:2)
- The whole battery fiasco was ridiculous. We've all heard horror stories of $120-odd battery replacements that can only be done by Apple by mail. I admit I haven't paid attention to whether or how Apple has remedied this.
- Maybe I'm alone on this one but I don't see any benefit for the average person to carry any more than 5
Re:Vive le differance! (Score:2)
Any post that opens like that has GOT to be good!
Do you think that, perhaps, just maybe, many people, say, the 90% or whatever who buy iPods, perhaps have slightly different priorities than you, instead of being uninformed?
Re:Vive le differance! (Score:2)
Try reading the rest of it and you'll ansewr your own question below.
Do you think that, perhaps, just maybe, many people, say, the 90% or whatever who buy iPods, perhaps have slightly different priorities than you, instead of being uninformed?
No I don't. Do you think the vast majority of people who buy computers make informed decisions? Or do they buy the first thing they recognize that suits their needs?
Of course the iPod is absolutely perfect
For sale... (Score:2, Funny)
not only apple... (Score:2)
NYT gets it exactly backwards. (Score:2, Interesting)
Good. Apple have been getting passes from the technical community on a few things. They've earned them. But they have no competition as targets for this kind of legislation, and someone had to fire the first shot. Good for the French.
Thank you (Score:3, Insightful)
Now about forcing Apple to license its DRM. Right or wrong aside I'm very much for that. Other companies have indicted that they are indeed interested in licesing Apple's DRM but Apple doesn't want to do that. If Itunes becomes the defacto distribution site for online TV and movies, which is actually very close to happening, then Apple should be forced to let other hardwa
Re:Thank you (Score:2)
Here is the list of compatible players: http://searchdocs.info.apple.com/article.html?artn um=75451&coll=ap [apple.com]
Is this logical? (Score:4, Insightful)
The real question is why have DMCA like measures in the first place? They don't stop content from being pirated anyhow, and just assist the industry in nickel and diming us.
This sounds like a government solution to a government created problem, as Apple hasn't done anything to my knowledge to abuse their position. If the government is protecting DRM from being reverse engineered, they are the ones screwing up fair use and turning the market lopsided, and Apple is perfectly within their rights under the law.
Re:Is this logical? (Score:3, Informative)
well, let's put it this way.
The DMCA (and it's EU corrolary called EUCD - European Union Copyright Directive) both stem from the same WIPO treaty.
The Directive offers ample possibilities so as to state anything in state law. It's each government choice as to what will be in the local law.
The french government has been lobbied by Vivendi Universal (and friends) and decided to select the worst possible things in the law-to-be
Here's what the head of the cultur
Re:Is this logical? (Score:2)
Re:Is this logical? (Score:2)
The real question is why have DMCA like measures in the first place? They don't stop content from being pirated anyhow, and just assist the industry in nickel and diming us.
Nickel and diming us - that's the point. It's called "preservation of profit potential" and is a key component to running a business. If it's successful in helping "them" nickel and dime us, then it'll stay. Count on it.
not necessarily apples problems (Score:4, Interesting)
That said, this current issue is not an issue with Apple. The iPods only major restriction that if the file contain DRM, then the only DRM that will work is Apple's. The other major restriction, unfortunately, is the OGG files must be converted to supported format, but I doubt France is taking umbrage with this.
So the real problem is DRM, and the people responsible for the DRM are the record labels. They have pushed this solution, and they have help create these near monopolies. Ultimately it is up to them to relinquish some control. The consensus outline of the solution appear to be well known. A royalty tax on a variety of products and services. The royalties will be paid based on tracking data, just like radio. It will be harder, but with good watermarks and random sampling of the P2P networks, it would work. The source will still be CDs and online, with CDs often the better choice in terms of value.
Apple could play a role in this, but building such tracking into itunes. The labels could be more happy if Apple tacked another dime on the price and submitted to the central royalty bank. The only downside is that this might open the market up to independents.
Re:The apple what? (Score:2)
Apple has lots of marketshare, a marketing department that makes catchy "silhouette"[who knew it was spelled like that? Google knew.. I didn't] ads, and UI-experts as opposed to engineers designing their products.
Re:not necessarily apples problems (Score:2)
Not just iPod (Score:3, Informative)
This is typical government sticking it's nose somewhere it doesn't belong. If Apple wants to lock their iTMS content to iPods, let them do it. If a consumer wants to crack Fairplay, using tools that would appear to be legal in France, once this legislation passes, let them do it. Or, at least, mp3 player companies should have to create, and provide, tools to convert files to a compatible format. Again, this only applies to France, such tools would be illegal in other countries.
What this law says (Score:5, Interesting)
2) A publisher/editor can force an artist to accept that his/her creation will be published with DRMs. ("vivendi" amendment, actually, four different amendments)
As you see, we have fucked up politicians here too. I would say we have slightly less corruption from the lobbies but far more incompetence.
Stupid (Score:2, Troll)
Governments seem to half-get things all the time
"Forcing people to act a certain way is bad.. "
"Agreed"
"So we should force different people to act a different way!"
Given a thousand cheese-eating surrender monkeys at a thousand typewriters.. eventually they'll come up with a sensible legal system? I suppose somebody thought it was a worthy experiment.
Oy (Score:3, Insightful)
I have no problem with device and media companies using DRM, ethically speaking. It makes their products less attractive to me personally, but they're betting that people like me are in the minority there. So be it. The only real problem with DRM is when laws like the DMCA in the USA prohibit you from circumventing it, because telling you what benign things you can do with a product you already own (short of redistribution) is just draconian.
Another case of treating a symptom to (Score:2)
What's Next? XBox on the PS2? (Score:2)
Latest iPod killer? (Score:3, Funny)
Can't you already do this? (Score:2)
The iTunes software of course only connects to apples own music store, but that makes sense, being that its a client for their store.
The iPod isn't exactly rocket science, all that is required is that you create an XML file on the disc with the playlists and song names. Anyone can create a nice client for it, just like the nice open source linux clients I
Monopoly+governemnt+cartel = mess (Score:2)
So music is provided by a cartel of publishing houses that unethically charge musicians for the right to hand over the copyright to them because they control all the major distribution channels. This cartel also forces any company reselling their music online to implement DRM. Now Microsoft, has been convicted of abusing their monopoly on desktop OS's to force consumers and that cartel to use their own proprietary DRM format and add their own tax on all music sold. Apple, somehow does an end run around MS w
Wait a minute (Score:2, Insightful)
Doesn't the iPod and iTunes play MP3s in France? (Score:2)
Let's call a spade a spade: in fact, the iPod and iTunes do support music from any sources besides the iTMS. However, iTunes and iPods do not support any DRM outside of iTMS. Therefore, it isn't breaking Apple's iTMS lock on the iPod. It's an attempt to force Apple to adopt other DRM schemes/contracts.
The real issues there... (Score:4, Interesting)
(Warning: What follows is precise fact. If you're waiting for the usual mentally retarded "yaah yaah the French are retarded" banter or the usual jokes about the "cultural exception", please read other messages.)
In 2001, the European Union adopted a directive called EUCD which, following from a 1996 WIPO treaty, required member states to legally protect DRM "technical protection measures". Concretely, the EU asked France to enact appropriate penalties against people circumventing DRMs.
In 2003, a law was drafted. Due to various circumstances, the law only came to Parliament in December 2005. The proposed law made circumventing DRMs, or even helping in circumvent DRMs, a felony punishable by up to 3 years in prison and/or up to a 300,000 EUR fine. The law was publicly justified by the need to protect the rights of the artists.
One major criticism is that the law and some proposed amendments could in essence endanger any "free software" capable of playing music, video or even DRM-encumbered text (PDF, anyone?) because it could be argued that giving the source code of a DRM was a help in circumventing it. Not everybody wishes to risk a maximal sentence of 3 years in prison for free software.
In December, the National Assembly famously adopted an amendment, the first in a series making p2p explicitly legal provided that Internet users paid a flat fee, against the wishes of the Minister of Culture. This started instant mayhem as the Minister tried to herd the Assembly back in his direction.
In March, Parliament began discussing the text again. The directive imposed DRMs in order to safeguard the rights of the artists. Parliament then voted for amendments that said that DRMs were ok and protected, but provided that they were interoperable, in order to allow concurrence in the marketplace of software and hardware players.
What this NYTimes article shows is that this bill was, in reality, not about the rights of the artists. It was about enacting criminal penalties for people who made concurrent products capable of reading the same contents. Now, some of those who pushed for the bill (makers of DRMs) are whining that their attempt backfired.
To be blunter: some companies made DRMs, and requested heavy felony penalties against circumventers. Well, they have now been served obligations of compatibility in exchange for some ability to prosecute circumventers. That's life.
Ah, by the way: in theory at least, French law prohibits "linked sales" to consumers - that is, tying the sale of a product to the sale of some other product, though this has wide exceptions.
Re:um iPod already does (Score:5, Interesting)
A non-iTMS store that the iPod works with: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Help me fellow Slashdotters! (Score:2)
Creative/whatever users are free to buy music for their devices from other stores if they like.
Re:Help me fellow Slashdotters! (Score:2)
How about a compromise: Love French women, tell their husbands that George W. Bush did it, and watch the fireworks while listening to pirated songs on your legally purchased iPod and drinking German beer ?-)
Re:Vive la difference! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Vive la difference! (Score:2)
Re:Vive la difference! (Score:2, Interesting)
In a word, horseshit. There is nothing in EU law that makes such bundling illegal, unless you are also a monopoly. The fact that non-iPod players and music services exist proves that Apple are not a monopoly. They're not even a de-facto monopoly; not by a long shot.
This is political; the French don't like the fact that they can not impose their "cultural preservation" laws on iTunes
Re:Vive la difference! (Score:2)
Bookstores do that in Canada. I like it. It's nice to be able to spot books by Canadian authors easily, especially when I'm tired of reading about New York, Chicago and LA.
I suspect the French are after something else.
Re:So THAT's why the french are renowned lovers... (Score:3, Funny)
While listening to to their wax cylinders. [wikipedia.org]
Re:So THAT's why the french are renowned lovers... (Score:2, Funny)
Screw DRMs (Score:2)
It could have been a DMCA a la Francaise, we mobilized to prevent it. We don't want to screw Apple but we don't want them to screw anyone "cracking" their DRMs
Troll? (Score:2, Offtopic)
I'm a mathematician defining a mathematical term that gets frequently misused by people with an idealogical axe to grind :)
I may be flamebait - but everything I've said is true ... not even matters of opinion actual objective statements of what a word means.
Re:Troll? (Score:2)
No, it looks like someone who actually knows what a free market [wikipedia.org] is somehow got mod points.
Never mind, the moral victory is yours.
Yes, ignore facts and just go with what feels right.
P.S. I doubt any true libertarian would mod something down.
Re:Troll? (Score:2)
Re:Overregulation reduces customer choice (Score:3, Insightful)
In related news, a free person is one whose every action is regulated by the government (slavery is freedom).
From wikipedia [wikipedia.org]:
"a free market is an idealised economic model wherein exchanges are "free" of all coercive measures[citation needed], including such government interference as tariffs, taxation, and regulations, except those which allow for private property ownership in land, natural resources, and the broadcast spectrum,
Re:Overregulation reduces customer choice (Score:2)
Re:Overregulation reduces customer choice (Score:2)
Re:Overregulation reduces customer choice (Score:2)
To make a market behave freely requires regulation just as a nation requires regulation to allow its population to live freely.
Re:Overregulation reduces customer choice (Score:2)
The simplest possible mathematical object that obeys the axioms of a market.
Just as a free group is the simplest possible mathematical object that obeys the axioms of a group.
When you use it to mean something else it is you who are attempting to twist its meaning, not I.
Re:Overregulation reduces customer choice (Score:2)
Re:ummmmmm (Score:2)
Okay, you're wrong.
Apple refuses to license the FairPlay DRM to anyone else (i.e. -- Microsoft or Real) and Apple themselves doesn't sell non-DRM protected MP3s.
Apple is the #1 player in portable music device market and the #1 player in online music sales. The iPod is the #1 selling device. B
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:iPod w/o ITMS ... say it's not so (Score:2)
iTunes ->
And not just iTunes, but:
->
It's an admirable goal, actually, and probably a good thing in terms of preserving a fluid market.
Re:Messieurs... (Score:2)
>Messieurs, je ne vous félicite pas!
Pourquoi pas simplement les appeler stupides ?Re:Apple leaves France whats the big deal? (Score:2)