Japan to Discourage Sale of Old Electronics 255
devphaeton writes to tell us Engadget is reporting that after April 1st (no this is not an April fools joke) the sale of old electronics in Japan could become much harder. From the article: "It seems that Japan's government revised its "Electrical Appliance and Material Safety Law" back in April 2001, and added a stipulation that items authorized under the country's old law (the "Electrical Appliance and Material Control Law") couldn't be sold anymore, but granted those products a five-year grace period. Well, if you check your convenient wall calendar, you'll see that the five-year period is about to end, which means that as of April 1, pretty much any electronic gear sold before April 1, 2001 can't be legally resold in Japan." The article also mentions that sellers can continue to sell old gear providing they get certification that the items conform to modern safety standards.
Closing the "analog hole" (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:3, Interesting)
No, a recall only happens if a product is found to fail the standards that it was originally tested to.
This is more like; a '69 Mustang doesn't meet todays safety and emissions standards so you can not sell it.
Or to stay in electronics; your antique tube radio would not meet UL standards today so you have to junk it.
No, I did not RTFM so don't know if private sales are exempt or whatever.
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:2)
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:4, Insightful)
What can you do?
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:3, Insightful)
That everyone agrees big, fuel guzzling, small car crushing vehicles shouldn't be on the road (let alone truck excemptions for SUV's in the U.S. [under Bush renewed I might add (Thank you Soccer Mom Vote's for Republicans)]).
No one wants em on the road, no group can be faulted as long as they are ashamed that the act took place and are making actions to rectify the situation.
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:2)
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:3, Insightful)
Because it's not about suiting "you", it's about suiting "the planet", and everyone else you share it with (NB: you are not the centre of the universe)
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:3, Insightful)
Perfect logic, if only the people hating on you were doing so simply because they're jealous of the volumetric size of your vehicle.
Reminds me of smokers who get defensive about people that find their habit disgusting and take measure to do something about it. As if it's not that the people don't dislike smoke blown in their face. Oh, no. They do it because they enjoy taking away the smoker's liberty or because they w
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:3, Insightful)
Only an idiot would say that.
First of all, if you've been around the country at all, you'd know that the large majority of in-use pre-80s cars are in RED STATES, where money is scarce, fixing
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:3, Insightful)
Surely you aren't wanting to destroy a piece of living history are you? Lord, give it a break. It isn't like there are tons of these old 'polluter' cars on the roads these days. Certainly, a few of them driving around on the weekends isn't even making a DENT is the pollution of the atmosphere...or a chief cause of 'global warming'.
Hey, old 110+ year old houses aren't efficient nor insulated properly, and waste energy. Should we
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:2, Interesting)
True, but do you know what is involved in getting UL certification?
It's mostly about $$. Here is UL's price list for standards [ul.com] (don't remember the relevant standard numbers for consumer electronics).
That's just what you pay for the documentation the testing is extra.
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:2)
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:4, Informative)
The Japanese economy is struggling against their own demographics [indexmundi.com]; there are fewer and fewer young people to support more and more older folks. Hard to say how that's going to sort itself out... but seems like a vacuum is opening there that will be filled by someone.
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:3, Interesting)
isn't it in japan where they're collecting eggs with the ultimate aim of generating state-children?
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:2)
isn't it in japan where they're collecting eggs with the ultimate aim of generating state-children?
Sounds like the sort of thing Stalin would go for.
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:2)
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:3, Funny)
Old Glory Insurance: Robot Insurance
As a senior citizen, you're probably aware of the threat robots pose. Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/95/95foldglory.phtml [jt.org]
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:2)
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:2)
That is where Asimo will come in. They will build robots to take care of all the older folks. And that Aibo dog robot.
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:5, Funny)
Antique Electronics? (Score:4, Informative)
There must be a serious plague of exploding N64s and MP3 players in Japan.
Well, in all seriousness though, this is a problem.
Lots of early consumer electronics devices won't even remotely approach modern safety standards. Consider early radios and TV sets which often used a "hot chassis" (where the steel chassis was directly connected to one side of the power line as part of a system avoiding the use of an expensive power transformer), like those using the traditional "All American Five [wikipedia.org]" tube lineup (50B5 or 50C5, 35W4, 12AV6, 12BE6, 12BA6), or the flip-leaf toasters of the 1920s. These items constitute only a very small risk because they will mostly be in very casual use by informed collectors and restorers, and short of mounting them in fireproof plexiglass boxes with isolation transformers, they will never even approach modern safety standards. (Note that a hot chassis wasn't as big a risk before they became surrounded by modern grounded electrical equipment - in their designed surroundings, you were unlikely to touch a grounded object at the same time as the radio. Also note that *many* post-war Japanese radios used the All-American Five design!)
Such a rule would effectively eliminate the collectable marketplace and probably result in the loss of many of the early products of companies which later became leaders in their fields. The first Sony transistor radio is historically significant, as is the first JVC VHS VCR, as is...
Japan is also noted among automotive enthusiasts for similarly draconian rules surrounding old cars - I cannot corroborate this, but I have heard that the *entire* braking system must be replaced in all cars over a certain number of years of age.
The grisly irony, of course, is that this is from a culture which reveres aged people... but they're apparently happy to destroy the remaining artifacts those people built.
(By the way, good rule of thumb: *never* leave any piece of electronic equipment made before about 1980 running unattended, inspect them for possible dangers like rotten insulation, and *always* assume that any exposed metal pieces are connected to one side of the power line.)
Re:Antique Electronics? (Score:2, Insightful)
It's ironic that they treat old people differently from old things? Perhaps it's your own cultural norms you should be concerned with.
Re:Antique Electronics? (Score:2)
But on the other hand, Japanese seem
Re:Antique Electronics? (Score:2)
We're close to that in the US. No shop wants to get sued if somebody gets in an accident when the brakes fail, so every shop will tell you you need new everything-brake-related whenever you go to them with a brake issue on an older car. It's not a law, it's CYA, but it amounts to almost the same thing.
Re:Antique Electronics? (Score:2)
I had heard a similar myth that auto engines required replacing after 40,000 miles as there were a number of import engines available in the US with this claimed 40,000 mile limit. Truth is, car inspection can be so expensive that people there would rather just trad
Re:Antique Electronics? (Score:2)
Even more than that, it would seriously cripple trade in items you wouldn't think about.
Vintage audio/amateur radio equipment. Audiophiles all over Japan will be screaming, as well as the amateur radio crowd. Many currently-operating amateur stations are either partially or wholly made up of vintage to moderately (10-15-20 y
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:2)
not really.. (Score:2, Offtopic)
It doesn't mean that people will have to buy new stuff, it just says that all new stuff will have to be compliant.
If the new standards are harder to comply with, perhaps it could mean less profit on new items sold.
On the other hand, this power could be used to further DRM restrictions on all consumer electronics manufacturers.
What the FCC is doing to consumers with this whole dig
Re:not really.. (Score:2)
Moreover, I'd like to add that forcing cable companies to comply with FCC regulations is totally ridiculous. How do they regulate wiring intrastate using the "interstate commerce clause"?
Who said anything about the FCC?
Re:not really.. (Score:2)
That's a pretty fair deal in the end.
Re:not really.. (Score:2)
C'mon, just find a willing seller, and buy it. Law and market are fairly orthogonal.
If it's illegal to buy/sell old electronics...
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:2)
(I've been there, done that)
Re:Closing the "analog hole" (Score:2)
better summary (Score:2)
Re:better summary (Score:2, Informative)
Re:better summary (Score:2, Funny)
They sound especially sweet when running off of non-copper electrical outlets that lack Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters [wikipedia.org].
Aluminum wiring wrapped with asbestos insulation is the best.
Re:better summary (Score:3, Funny)
Re:better summary (Score:2)
Re:better summary (Score:2)
i was gonna... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:i was gonna... (Score:2)
Tinkerers? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Tinkerers? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Tinkerers? (Score:5, Insightful)
what did you take apart that taught you a lot about electronics?
Re:Tinkerers? (Score:3, Informative)
The silicon parts rarely go bad.
Re:Tinkerers? (Score:2)
Japan has a large amateur radio population, I'm wondering what effect this will have on them?
Re:Tinkerers? (Score:2, Interesting)
The gray box on the outside of my parent's house for the telco demark : I learned that the problem is usually with the end user.
Dismantled the markers for the automatic feeding of livestock on my family's farm : I learned about how an access card works 15 years before I had my own.
A toaster : How resistance generates heat
Tape decks : How the tape stores it's information magnetically
VCRs : How the head is able to read the information from
Re:Tinkerers? (Score:3, Interesting)
Things have gotten more complex, in general, but that doesn't mean there isn't still a tremendous ammount to learn, and fix!
What are the biggest problems with consumer electronics these days? Dead capacitors, loose solder connections, etc.
Sur
Re:Tinkerers? (Score:2)
I've learnt an amazing amount by taking aparent modern electronics. The main thing I take apart (as well as most slashdoters) is my P.C. From this I've learnt basic computer architecture and how to install hardware. I've learnt how the PSU supplys power to each component.
Wow. That's an amazing amount of superficial knowledge. Replacing a video card doesn't really count as taking a computer apart. Yes, you learned that there are strips of green plastic with electronics that do stuff in the computer. When
Re:Tinkerers? (Score:2)
Driving consumerism & export development (Score:5, Interesting)
Only retail (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a link discussing it: http://www.mutantfrog.com/2006/02/22/2nd-hand-ele
Re:Only retail (Score:2)
Move along, nothing to see here...
Re:Mod Parent Down (Score:2)
It's worse than that: it has the potential to result in the prevention of irrational, emotive, YRO-stylee rants.
Cheers
Stor
Side Effects (Score:2)
Then again, I think this law is just a ploy by Nintendo lobbyists to force Japanese consumers to purchase their continual stream of repackaged..er..."innovative" GameBoys and uses a Revolution to play all of the old games, instead of a 1,
Great... more garbage (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Ridiculous...why stop resale? (Score:2, Insightful)
As technology is phased out, it is hard to get unless resold - i.e. the Famicom. So you can't buy an old electronic?
Buying older games for my N64 doesn't provide any competition to my buying of games for my Xbox 360. The N64 is different, and I can get classics for it. I can get better (looking) games for my 360.
My point? Old electronics don't compete with new ones. To stop resale coul
Re:Ridiculous...why stop resale? (Score:5, Informative)
Category II circuit, such as MAINS, as defined by IEC and (in the US) Underwriter's Laboratories, must be designed to tolerate overvoltage conditions such as those caused by transformer shorts or relatively distant lightning strikes. From UL 3121-1, a circuit designed with a working voltage of 100 V DC or AC RMS must tolerate a peak impulse voltage of 1360 V for a few microseconds (from table D.10). This doesn't necessarily mean that the product still has to work after such an impulse; it just means that the product must remain safe to the operator for such an impulse. Fuses can blow, chips can be damaged, but no voltage greater than 60 V DC / 42.4 V AC pk can be exposed to the user.
I assume that Japan's old standard, before 2001, was weaker than this. Thus, older electronics can't be sold because they could theoretically kill the users.
This only applies to products that carried MAINS voltages. (Products with wall-warts limit the high voltage to the wall, and are completely unaffected.) Even then, the old products might have been designed above the standard, and therefore could still be sold anyway.
(Disclaimer: I design high voltage hardware products.)
Who is going to pay to certify them? (Score:2)
This only applies to products that carried MAINS voltages. (Products with wall-warts limit the high voltage to the wall, and are completely unaffected.)
How are you sure that the definition of "carried" in the law doesn't include the short distance that the 100VAC travels inside the wall-wart or from the outlet through the plug to the wall-wart? What good is a used Famicom, Super Famicom, or N64 if you can't buy a working power supply for it? And doesn't, say, the PlayStation 1 (not the smaller PSOne) ha
Not really a big deal in Japan (Score:2)
Yes, there is a niche market to resell the used materials, but the market is not as big as it is over here in the U.S. (I'm thinking eBay or craiglist). So from consumers' stand point I don't think this would cause major headaches.
As far as the recycling of old gadgets go? For *that*, I would like to know what the government
Disappointing (Score:5, Insightful)
It all seemed to work so well. The Japanese have, to put it mildly, something of a penchant for things shiny and new, so what they toss out would be regarded by Westerners as nearly new. So rather than putting all this nearly new stuff to waste, they sell it to shops like Sofmap, who sell it on to people like me, who are quite happy with a nearly new bargain. Contrast that with, say, Britain, where, the mobile phone market excepted, we make the most of our computers and such - the term the Japanese use is tsukaikomu.
It's not as though this is going to net the computer companies much more profit - people buy new things anyway, as stated above.
Shame. I had hoped to net myself a Flower Power iMac next time I was out there...
iqu
Really? (Score:2)
Not just gomi?
Only Unsafe Stuff, Right? (Score:2)
Exports of old kit are exempt (Score:2)
Now, this undercuts a market in Japan for old stuff, and that market may or may not have been important in the first place. But the law *will* create a few more sales for electronics companies. I suppose Ebay and the others are a bit put off since used electronics might be a big part of their sales... but I don't know that fo
Coming soon to eBay... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not much different than the new EU laws. (Score:5, Informative)
Like Japan, this may effect the resale of used goods, although there will be a patchwork of mildly inconsistent laws throughout the EU. As I see it, these initiatives will have enormous impact on the used technology market AND on small manufacturers, as another level of paperwork and expense is added to the process. The result could be fewer garage startups like Apple and H-P.
Actually lead based solder bans make no sense (Score:3, Informative)
But it gets worse. The non-lead solders are predominantly tin. This has two major disadvantages over lead based solders:
1) Higher melting point. Means more components get fried and more joints don't form properly in creation, leading to mo
Re:Actually lead based solder bans make no sense (Score:2)
Re:Actually lead based solder bans make no sense (Score:3, Interesting)
Car batteries have enough value that you can be sure they will practically ALWAYS be recycled properly.
Lead solder, however, gets tossed into landfills all the time, in the form of discarded stereos, computers, etc.
Wow, what a terrible anal
Re:Not much different than the new EU laws. (Score:3, Insightful)
except that water has already been peed in.
Seriously, how is taking all the old equipment and througinh it away going to help? I am all for finding cleaner ways to do things, but you can't take back the lead and mercury already in components.
Re:Not much different than the new EU laws. (Score:2)
Eivind.
Re:Not much different than the new EU laws. (Score:2)
Actually, we probably can - Urine is readily digested by water microbes and is usually sterile. The mexicans grew crops in their sewage ponds until spanish invasion, and the system had been in place for maybe 1500 years. Our society has a rather strange aversion to our own bodily wastes, yet we willingly expose ourself to known carcenogens. Fascinating.
No used electronics for them means more for me (Score:3, Interesting)
--Pat
Re:No used electronics for them means more for me (Score:3, Informative)
Heh, we've been getting old US articles in Mexico for decades. Welcome to the club.
Crisitunity (Score:2)
Vintage Audio (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Vintage Audio (Score:3, Informative)
I work for a small manufacturer of high-end vacuum tube audio equipment in the USA. While we have almost zero sales in Japan, we often get inquiries about vintage equipment and tubes. Last month, a Japanese gentleman stopped by the shop, with an American friend & interpreter. The laundry list was exactly as you describe - Western Electric, Voice of the Theater, Ampex, JBL, Altec, Electro-Voice and so forth.
As one would expect, he was exceptionally polite and willing to look at anything we cared to sho
Re:Vintage Audio (Score:2)
I wanted to take him by the Pavek Radio Museum, but that would have been way too cruel ;-)
You should have - maybe he'd bring some buddies out the next time.
Re:Vintage Audio (Score:4, Funny)
Tubegirl?
Re:Vintage Audio (Score:2)
Tubegirl?
Thanks, now that beautiful vintage brown grillcloth on my old tube guitar amp will make my stomach turn every time I look at it from now on.
Strat
Great need a buyer? (Score:2)
Already in Australia (Score:2)
I wonder if it is a ploy by industry groups to increase 'consumer spending', i.e. stop people repairing old and force them to buy (cheap, shoddy) new stuff.
Re:Already in Australia (Score:2)
Re:Already in Australia (Score:2)
Yay Black Market! (Score:2, Funny)
"Hey, wanna buy a pager? Come on, Alphanumeric! How about a blender?
I've got a deal just for you on vcr's buddy.. Step into my alley"
Uhhh... (Score:2, Insightful)
So, electronics that were authorized under the old guidelines cannot be sold... unless the conform to the new. Anything that is safe can still be sold!
Bad news for (Score:2)
Heard this years ago - does it relate? (Score:2)
Several years ago, I read something that relates to this. Someone with better knowledge of Japanese consumer culture can chime in and correct me if this is incorrect.
I read that on a certain day every year in Japan, it is customary (at least in the wealthier areas) to put all of your used (from the last year or so) electronics out on the curb (or in the alley, whichever you have) as an emblem of your prosperity, and as a demonstration of your intent to replace your old Japanese goods with new.
People fro
Re:Heard this years ago - does it relate? (Score:2, Informative)
Sigh. A kernel of truth blown up into unrecognizeability.
One week in April there are several one-day holidays that happen to fall in that one week, and the sole remaining workday i
Not as big a threat to second-hand resale (Score:2)
While many consumer goods are "perishable" because new models/features/prices are obsoleting older ones, there are some mature products that might have been manufactured years ago, are stock piled in the warehouses, and just continue to trickle out (instead of being actively ma
Politicians will have a ball with this (Score:2)
Instead of those semi-legitimate ads about supporting terror with drugs...we opted for stupid and illegitimate ads equating content "piracy" with terrorism. Now we'll have ill-conceived ads about supporting terror with electronics. Here goes (feel free to add/subtract anything from here):
"If you buy hardware from Japan, you ::hint ambiguity:: may be supporting terrorists on the black market. So now you will be stealing money from those hard-working hardware manufacturers [who are compensated duly in sweat-
Hi ho pirate ship (Score:2)
Re:JP Console Games/Hardware (Score:2)
Re:Similar to auto industry (Score:2)
I get the impression that this is exactly like how the auto industry works in Japan. If your car is more than a couple of years old it's not going to pass vehicle inspection - no matter what sort of shape it's in - and you will have no choice but to buy a new one.
Now they're doing it with electronics. Will this mean a flood of cheap used Japanese electronics, just like the flood of cheap used Japanese cars? Or just lots of gomi for college students to pick over?
...laura
Re:Similar to auto industry (Score:2)
But the government's not subjecting televisions, washing machines, and computers to annual inspections. You can keep using what you have as long as you want. So it is quite different.
Re:Similar to auto industry (Score:2)
As for the electronics thing, computer devices are exempt; this only applies to electrical appliances that run at high voltage. As it is, the law is pretty lenient. The retailers will say, "Okay, whatever you say," and slap a sticker on it saying that it's fine. Since, under the law, you can "lease someth
Re:If I were president... (Score:2)