Ditching Microsoft Could Save Education Millions 383
ElvenMonkey writes "The Times Education Supplement has published the results of a BECTA (British Educational Communications and Technology Association, the Government's ICT agency) study, to be published next week, into the TCO of using Microsoft products compared to using Open Source products. The report shows an average saving of 24% per computer in schools using Open Source over those using Microsoft systems. Now if only the government wasn't insistent on locking schools into using Microsoft in arguably illegal ways."
wow. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:wow. (Score:5, Funny)
nevermind.. keep the computers.
Re:wow. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:wow. (Score:5, Funny)
At least it paid off in your grammar, spelling, capitalization, and punctuation skills.
And computers... (Score:3, Funny)
nevermind.. keep the computers.
Single: Yep, being a computer nerd is a great way not to be single.
Musician:
Alcoholic: After seeing the goatse.cx man, they will be.
Addicted to porn: There is no porn online. Really.
Slashdot: Nope, don't find that online either.
So yeah, let them keep the computers. At least that'll keep them from becoming musicians. Probably on EverCrack or something to keep them busy, but hey. They're
Re:computers hurting education (Score:3, Insightful)
The previous studies in North America of course have concluded that computers give people a competitive advantage over their computerless peers, but that trend I don't believe. I work in the computer industry so to speak, and in a type of educational field, and I may be nuts to say this, but we need fewer computers in the schools, or homes if teachers
Re:wow. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now look at me, I am a software engineer, I think they are the biggest waste of money within a school, they are "super machines" that people think will make teaching go so much better.
Give the money to the teachers to higher a better staff, THEN you will have more well informed children. God if they paid $60K+ starting to teach, think of the people they could have instructing.
Re:wow. (Score:2)
Now look at me, I am a software engineer, I think they are the biggest waste of money within a school, they are "super machines" that people think will make teaching go so much better.
Computers are not in schools strictly for the potential software engineer. They are there because learning to operate a computer, such as authoring documents on publishing software, or keying in orders, is a requirement for a
Re:wow. (Score:4, Insightful)
Me, i was banned from the school computer lab for breaking through their restrictions and accessing a dos prompt, now i'm paid pretty good money as a security consultant doing penetration-testing where i'm SUPPOSED to break security.
Re:wow. (Score:4, Insightful)
If kids want toys, they can play at home - not school. When you are at school, you are on Mr. Taxpayer's computer and do NOT have the right to go in and screw with the system. Put video cameras in the labs and force the parents to pay for any damage their kids do.
Re:wow. (Score:3, Interesting)
> have more well informed children. God if they paid $60K+ starting to
> teach, think of the people they could have instructing.
If the same 'teaching establishment' were in charge nothing would change except pissing away a lot of money to the same semi-literate hacks we have now.
Education won't improve until the unions are broken so the incompetents with tenure can be sacked and people with a Phd in Math can teach without spen
Re:wow. (Score:3)
You have never had a "genius" teach your class without the understanding that we are paying to be given insight into the material. If the book they choose is incomprehensible and they can not communicate, what use are they as teachers. That is what they are paid for
Re:wow. (Score:3, Interesting)
Once at a party, a group of teachers who had left teaching were asked by someone of your mindset (ie, increasing the pay of teachers would "help") and they all said, each and every one, that the pay had nothing whatsoever to do with why they were leaving.
I know several PhD level scientists who have left teaching for precisely the same reason. I mys
Re:wow. (Score:2, Interesting)
It's too bad we can't experiment on children the way we do with lab rats. I'd like to see two nearly identical student bodies -- one with computers, and one without -- and see which really gets further in life. Since the invention of the blackboard, elementary and high school educators have always clamored for the latest gadgets, and sulked when they don't get it. I sometimes wonder if they get more than they need, especially when I
No kidding (Score:5, Insightful)
Computers belong in labs and specialized situations in schools (we had a pretty successful mac lab for a media production class at my high school, for instance), and rarely anywhere else. If it makes sense to use a computer for a lesson (typing up a paper, a research day, etc), the teacher can sign up for the lab (that is easily maintained, and can often be staffed by students).
Re:No kidding (Score:2)
Okay kids, for tomorrow bring me a 10 pages essay on blahblahblah. And DO NOT use computers! It has to be done by hand!
-What?
-But teacher...
-No way!
Yeah, tremendous move indeed.
Use computers APPROPRIATELY (Score:3, Insightful)
If you are going to have computers in schools - and I think you should - do the following:
1) make sure you have the electrical and networking infrastructure in place ahead of time, or at least concurrent with hardware delivery
2) train the teachers on how to us
Re:wow. (Score:2, Insightful)
There have been an unusually large number of anti-Microsoft articles in the press lately, and I think the pro-MS groupthink is seriously starting to crack. At Slashdot, where there usually are several people trying to defend Microsoft, there are almost none. Even the ones at the recent OO.org discussion are basically admitting to a plight of lock-in, fueled by Visual Basic and the closed Office file formats.
Microsoft is steadily being walled-off by their competitors. Solaris and Linux are both world-cla
Libraries too (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the insidious thing about Bill's Foundation. Libraries get placed on the MS upgrade cycle, hooked by the initial free-ness. Then try doing anything with your machines without spending a whole lot of money...
Re:Libraries too (Score:2)
Microsoft.
Re:Libraries too (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Libraries too (Score:3, Interesting)
> aren't the standard-bearer for interoperable Web sites, document
> formats, and any other kind of information exchange, who will be?
Well our library was more than happy to accept Bill & Melinda's generous contributions. For the time the hardware was pretty solid midrange and ran our Linux based patron model quite nicely. And even though the software licenses were a joke (locked to both the hardware AND the library but co
Re:Libraries too (Score:3, Insightful)
I know that is in their typical license crapola and if we also had it installed in a partition I might even listen to their arguments. But the donation license specified it had to be used only on the GLF hardware and only by our library's patrons. Both conditions were being met so any complaints would go to
linux! (Score:2, Funny)
Not a scientific study (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not a scientific study (Score:3, Insightful)
Nonetheless, I can believe these numbers. Libraries and elementary schools are no-brainers for using Linux and free software apps. Anyway, this is an improvement on the usual hypothetical TCO numbers pulled out of one side's ass or the other's.
Lobby your school district for K12LTSP! (Score:5, Insightful)
Further proof (Score:2)
Thank you.
No! (Score:4, Funny)
It's amazing to me how rarely we see "academic" software like Unix & Linux in our schools. I'm fortunate enough to be assisting in setting up a private school's computer network, all Linux, baby!
academic software??? (Score:4, Interesting)
AVIS Rent a Car,
Red Sky Interactive (Dot Com failure so maybe they don't count?)
Mens Wearhouse
Hertz Rent A Car
FAA
All of the big app servers have been Solaris or Linux or AIX..... Granted they had windows desktops, windows servers for Peoplesoft, but all the Oracle/DB2, Java App server, Transaction management, Messanging etc.. Everything I actully wrote code on/for was some kind of *nix box.
So I keep hearing about the importantance of knowing Office etc.. I could see that it has some value, but I have NEVER hired anyone nor been hired myself based any kind of m$ office skills....
If somone is smart and can learn Word perfect or open Off or m$ off, then they can easily learn another package.
Re:No! (Score:3, Funny)
I can guarantee this... (Score:2)
When it comes to slashdot, there will be so many opinions, including those from posters who think they know, but who in effect, know so little to know that they know nothing.
Have a good weekend guys.
Gotta love The Register (Score:4, Funny)
The Register is such a timesaver for Slashdotters...it has the anti-M$ slant built in.
Re:Gotta love The Register (Score:3, Funny)
Actually, yes, I will.
Thanks for caring, though.
Not in Kansa (anymore) (Score:3, Funny)
God didn't create Microsoft Office to Futs in us unused [about.com].
Re:Not in Kansa (anymore) (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not in Kansa (anymore) (Score:2)
Hmm I wonder if Word's gramar checker would help you not misquote Hamlet.
Quality - naaaaa... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Quality - naaaaa... (Score:2)
Have you ever used Open Office? MS Office is much better.
Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source Today (Score:3)
Do you have it within you to write a clear, three-paragraph letter to the chair of a school board today? Please prove it, by posting its text in reply to this comment.
The challenge is made; who among you are human enough to meet it?
Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To (Score:3, Insightful)
Dude, pass some of whatever you've been smoking this way. Like I said elsewhere, I'm far from the president of the MS fan club, but anybody who gets any low- to mid-level job anywhere is going to be sitting in front of a Winbox and needs to know how to use it. Sure, Linux would be great to teach to kids who know at age 10 they want to be developers or sysadmins, but the average person working the average job is *gonna* be on Windows. It's unfortunate, but it's the tr
Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To (Score:2, Insightful)
We are talking about secondary schools here though, these normally have pupils aged 11-18(ish).
Assume you have a typical office worker, who does their A-levels, takes a gap year, goes to a middling 'university' then sells their soul working in some mindless office job (quite a common situation, at least in the South East of the UK)
These 11-year olds, entering school today, won't enter the work force for about a decade.
10-12 years ago, the Amiga was still alive, win
Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To (Score:2)
School's Motive (Score:3, Insightful)
What's the difference? (Score:5, Interesting)
So it was OK for my city's entire public school system and library system to lock me into using Apples all the way up until my senior year, but it's not OK to lock people into using Windows? Apple has long been known for educational discounts in exchange for school systems agreeing to use Apple exclusively and pressure their students into buying them. It happened to many friends of mine and almost happened to me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not the president of the MS fan club or anything, but I gotta say it was really really annoying having to be programming in nothing but BASIC on IIgs's in 1991. I was overjoyed when our school was the chosen pilot for the PC program - I learned a lot more about computers a lot more quickly.
That said, locking students into any one system is bad. I say, have a Mac, a Winbox, and linux box all running side by side and let the students decide which one they want to use. Let them, to coin a phrase, compete in the marketplace of ideas. Isn't competition the American way?
Re:What's the difference? (Score:2, Insightful)
2. students aren't paying for the computers, e.g., no market
3. regardless of whether you're using a windows, mac, or linux machine today, there's an enormous amount of free software available for all those platforms. today's students certainly aren't stuck developing in basic like they were 15 years ago.
Re:What's the difference? (Score:2)
That's an awful lot of characters used just to say RTFM. Guilty as charged. The points I was trying to make remain valid no matter what country it's in. Competition is good. Students learning more than one OS is good. And when it somes to monopolizing entire school districts, Microsoft is very late to Apple's game.
"2. students aren't paying for the computers, e.g., no market"
Marketplace of ideas. [wikipedia.org]
"regardless of whether you're using a windows, mac
Re:What's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking as someone who started learning how to program on an Apple II at age 12, then moving to Mac OS, then to WinTel at 16, and arriving at Linux in my 20s, I can say that it doesn't really matter what is in front of the student.
What matters are the fundamentals that we are teaching. As an example, my sixth grade teacher would spend time after school with me helping me debug BASIC programs on the ol Apple II. What my teacher did was set the stage for me to grasp fundamental logic concepts. This knowledge allowed me to move freely in the computing world. That type of knowledge transcends making the font bold or creating that powerpoint slide. This is what the computer should be used for, not some silly test of which button to push, hell, you can tech mice that kind of crap.
Re:What's the difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
Locking people to MS? Bad
Locking people to Linux? Good!.
Students should learn on linux. They can really get to the guts to learn how computers work. They can even make contributions if they want. Finally you are not whoring your students to some company.
Re:What's the difference? (Score:2)
Re:What's the difference? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:About the cost (Score:2)
not really clear (Score:3, Insightful)
Considering the earlier article regarding OpenOffice, it might make sense to calculate [expensive license] - free = savings. But where does that leave cheap academic licensing?
Re:not really clear (Score:2)
(all prices estimated in canadian $)
Let's add things up. XP Home, regular retail $150
MS office about $300
BASIC OS + BASIC OFFICE SUITE $450
I'm sure schools would purchase more than those two pieces of software alone, which pushes the software cost even higher.
Suppose schools get 50% discount, that's still $225.
If that is 10%, that's a computer worth $2,000 which would make some game loving script kiddie have wet dreams every night for months.
I'd estim
Oh, sure, that'll work... (Score:2)
The Microsoft Mafia (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The Microsoft Mafia (Score:2, Interesting)
Far from being a school thing, this is a test for college students.
Easy enough, you might think. However, I ran into difficulties, finding I might not be able to pass, as I'd typed the files as a ".sxw" file, not a Word .doc.
Furthermore, there is a possibility in my upcoming A level computing exam, if I write an answer in Linux terminology rather than Windows I won't get the marks. Similarly, mark sche
Re:The Microsoft Mafia (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh sure now that's the case.... (Score:3, Insightful)
If we ever see Google embrace Open Office and champion OSS then it could become a viable threat to M$, the likes of which M$ hasn't seen.
OSS has been making great inroads these last few years and sadly it is not going away as much as M$ would love to see happen. M$ just needs to learn the lesson that IBM did. As time goes by you have to evolve from a company that creates standards to one that contributes to them. The past is littered with the carnage of companies who did not learn this.
Not that M$ will ever go away.
Re:Oh sure now that's the case.... (Score:2)
Linux comes from Eunuchs (Score:2, Informative)
Shhhhhhh! (Score:2)
Someone should have let Henrico County know (Score:2)
Granted, OS X is not open-source, but I would have been OK with an OS X to complete-open-source migration. I am not OK with an OS X to Windoze backwards migration.
Re:Someone should have let Henrico County know (Score:2)
OS 9 is not what I would consider a good demonstration of what Apple's capable of in 2005...
Either system would've been a big leap from what they had. Oh well.
Being an Apple fan, I'd like to hear the problems they have with the new Dells, or the extra work they might have to do or the extra money they'll pay for support, etc.
Skolelinux is the school linux distro... (Score:5, Informative)
roy
Re:Skolelinux is the school linux distro... (Score:2)
Skolelinux (School Linux in Norwegian) is a customized Debian distribution. It's based on Woody, but a version based on Sarge is in the works.
The philosophy of Skolelinux is that it should be super easy to install and -- most importantly -- maintain. The installer asks three questions -- language, password and a profile, where the profile is either "Main server", "Thin client server" or "Workstation". Then, centralized authentication and file sto
Economics of Supply & Demand (Score:2, Insightful)
Supply of msft admins = high
Supply of non-msft admins = low
Replacing all msft admins with the low # of non-msft admins = high demand for a low amount of resources.
Which makes the non-msft admins outrageously expensive. Thus, negating the savings...
Seriously, where is the average school in po-dunk Mississippi going to find a quality non-msft admin cheaply when a drop-out could do msft administration?
Re:Economics of Supply & Demand (Score:3, Insightful)
You missed out the quality of the admins and the numbers of problems which have to be solved per desktop etc etc.
I for example am quite expensive. I can on the other hand quite easily set up a system that supports hundreds, thousands of concurrent users and requires bugger all administration, on cheap commodity, even obsolete, hardware. A small amount of time from an expensive admin is cheap. A large amount of time from a cheap admin is expensive.
Re:Economics of Supply & Demand (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, someone clueless *can* run a windows network, but they don't do a very good job of it.. Securing windows to the extent required to prevent the students and internet nasties making mincemeat of the network is actually MUCH HARDER than doing the same on a unix platform. You have to disable a lot of core functionality of the os because it's flawed and insecure, you have to heavily restrict apps like word
24% per computer? (Score:2)
Sorry to pick nits, but qualifying 24% with "per computer" is meaningless.
Re:24% per computer? (Score:2)
Re:24% per computer? (Score:2)
They could instead pay a hefty license for the 'corporate' version of windows which no longer makes it 'per computer', but more 'per seat' and the more computers they purchase, the per seat cost drops.
To me, 24% per computer and 24% per seat are two different things and adding that qualifier is a reasonable stateme
MS Exchange (Score:2)
Now, for a supported platform, they can choose between Domino, Novell
Re:MS Exchange (Score:2)
Just thought the story might be illuminating from a cost vs. capability discussion.
What We'd Need (Score:5, Informative)
* All other agencies that communicate with my district would have to settle on a common, open document format, and stay with it. We need to read what the state sends us.
* Our student information systems would have to support something other than Microsoft products. Tell NCS/Pearson to port SASIxp/IGPro/PCXP to something other than Windows. Follet Software did it with their media circulation software. It's far from impossible.
* All other agencies need to hire something other than web developers who took a half-semester ASP programming course.
* Our accounting systems need to be ported to something other than Windows. There are no cost-effective systems that run on Linux (it's not just initial purchase, it's the support availability).
Where I could substitute with Linux, I did. It's not just Internet access and games for kids, either. Many districts are computerized from top to bottom, so the answer to "why do we need computers in schools", is "because it saves labor costs and gets the job done faster." You also might want to consider that many schools don't have full-time IT staff. Most of the available contractors are MS Certified Reset-button Pushers.
Re:What We'd Need (Score:3, Insightful)
Advocate using Linux/OpenOffice to teach computer fundamentals to the kids. Word Processing, SpreadSheets, Graphics, etc. These activities don't require expensive Microsoft software.
Enjoy,
Some really good points (Score:2)
I'll use a good friend as an example which I don't think should be considered typical but remains as a good illustration. He took a test recently for a job. The test actually had some "long division" problems in it. He had completely forgotten how to do that. He's a shar
The costs of using windows is not only the money (Score:2, Insightful)
Unix is the way to go.
Detailed case study with costings (Score:3, Interesting)
http://cutterproject.co.uk/Casestudies/orwell_cos
The school has costed its savings at 40,000 pounds (UK) per year - or in the region of US$70,000 I guess.
There is something really pleasing in seeing five classroms of 30 or so kids each sit down and use a Linux desktop as the most natural thing in the world.
Re:Think of the kids (Score:2)
I know this guy was obviously trolling.... or had some typos... to give him the benefit of the doubt, I've made appropriate corrections...
Re:After graduation (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:After graduation (Score:4, Insightful)
Who can't?
Can you program Excel macros?
Sure! (Just lemme download that tutorial at the web)
Can you use windows?
AND tweak it.
Welcome to our company. See you next monday at 9.
(See? That wasn't so hard, was it?)
Re:After graduation (Score:5, Interesting)
Can you use Excel?
I can use several spreadsheet programs, and can even develop complex math functions.
Can you use Word?
I have experience with several word processing tools, and can help the company by ensuring that documents transfer well between programs.
Can you use Windows?
I have extensive experience with windows environments and graphical interfaces, and can even use a computer when those interfaces fail.
Thanks, can you start Monday?
Re:After graduation (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:After graduation (Score:2, Interesting)
That's not evading or being dishonest, it's showing the i
Re:After graduation (Score:3, Insightful)
The thing to consider is that the HR departments at most companies act as the first level of filtering of resumes. So, they'll usually scan a resume for certain keywords. It's entirely possible that even though someone is a perfectly qualified candidate, they might not be able to pass this first level of filtering. It's not entirely logical, but that's unfortunately how most of the world works.
So, you might argue just put the MS products on your resume, even if you don't really "know" them. Well, the
Re:After graduation (Score:3, Funny)
Re:After graduation (Score:2, Interesting)
OpenOffice, Koffice. and crossover to run MS office.
whats important, is to learn how to use a computer, the how and whys. leanr the basics of what a spread is how it works and you will be able to use any spreadsheet quickly.
-Nex6
Re:After graduation (Score:2)
Re:After graduation (Score:2)
Most people simply don't take it upon themselves to learn things for themselves for work, because they know if it were really important their companies will pay for their training.
How difficult is a word processor? (Score:3, Insightful)
Then there's the corollary, would you want to work for the kind of muppets who couldn't realise that the concepts are the same for all word processors, hell even the menu layouts are similar.
Reality check. People who are this dumb are going to get eaten alive in the globalised economy.
Re:How difficult is a word processor? (Score:2)
The fact is, the vast majority of people need to be given an explicit set of instructions on how to use a program, and don't have the skills necessary to deviate from them (at least not successfully. Often, you'll find the guy that deviates all the time and screws everything up in the process because he doesn't understand his limitations. It would be fine if he leared from his
Re:How difficult is a word processor? (Score:2)
Perhaps learning to use different programs in schools at a young age will help to teach them how not to get stuck in that kind of rut.
Re:How difficult is a word processor? (Score:2)
Bollocks I will. If they don't have those kinds of (pretty bloody basic) skills, there are 1,000,000,000 Chinese who will at a fraction of the cost.
Re:After graduation (Score:2)
Can you use (Excel|Word|Windows)?
Answer A: "Which version? (watch as interviewer's eyes glaze over) No matter, I've used several (word processor|spreadsheet|OS) variants in my time, I'm sure I can use or quickly learn to use whatever you have in house."
Answer B: "Yes." It doesn't matter if it's true. If your job requires the ability to use advanced functionality of these programs, the interviewer will ask about these specifically. Besides, I'm sure at some point you'l
Re:After graduation (Score:2)
Can you use (Excel|Word|Windows)?
A simple tip to save time - if the interviewer's eyes glaze over, you can stand up and leave.Answer A: "Which version? (watch as interviewer's eyes glaze over)
Re:After graduation (Score:3, Insightful)
The main reasons for this include:
1) All word processors/spreadsheets/whatever have almost exactly the same user interface. Once you know OO.org, it's not exactly rocket science to know how to use MS Office.
2) The version of Windows/MS Office that the school uses will be out of date in around a year or so, and you can bet your ass they won't update for another 5 years. So you'll probably be using something slightly di
Re:After graduation (Score:2)
Re:Duh (Score:2)
Re:MSDN? (Score:2)
Compare that with the obscene prices we (used to) pay Borland ($12,000), Macromedia ($7,000) and Symantec ($5,000).
Although we do have a number of Linux machines, the cost and effort to move over entirely is prohibitive for the reasons you described. Now it never us