MSN Sponsors Mensa 492
crankyspice writes "Fresh on the heels of Google courting members via GLAT advertisements in the Bulletin, Microsoft's MSN is now sponsoring American Mensa events, featuring Mensa questions on the MSN homepage, and Mensa will put MSN's search on their new homepage."
So what ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Look, I'm no shill for MS - I think their OS sucks dead bunnies through short straws, but frankly, who cares ? MS want to associate themselves with an organisation that likes to consider itself better than average, by their own definition. And the news is... what ?
I have no respect for Mensa, they like to position themselves as the "society of the intelligent", and yet most of the people I've interviewed who have claimed Mensa membership on their resume are less than attractive as candidates. It's almost a badge of dishonour... They don't fail on intelligence (but that's not normally where people I interview fail anyway), they fail on people skills - being able to recognise that someone else may know more about X than you do, and coping with that knowledge well.
Oh, I've not much respect for MS either (at least technically - I think their marketing is excellent), but that ought to be obvious from my tagline...
Simon.
Re:So what ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:So what ? (Score:3, Insightful)
You mean like gauging someone's artistic talents by "Can you draw Spunky?"
Re:So what ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just something to keep in mind...a lot of times, computer geeks think they're God's gift to the earth. There are lots of people smarter at you when it comes to things you know nothing about. I don't know a damn thing about making really good spaghetti or building a car engine. Variety and the collective versatility it creates is what makes society great.
Re:To sum up: (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Ah. You tried to get into mensa.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Frankly, I'm not the "worrier" type who needs the justification of a test to prove (s)he's as good as (s)he thinks (s)he is. I've done it and I'm proud of what I've done.
I'm a clever guy - I've excelled in every academic test I've ever taken. (14 'O' levels, 6 'A' levels, 2 'S' levels, a Physics degree from IC, London, and a PhD at KCL). I have more qualifications (in spades) than 99% of people I've met. I don't see the need to be an arrogant SOB because of that. I've set up, run for a few years and successfully sold a company at an excellent profit. I've pretty much done it all - I'm now working in a dream job for a cool company in California and enjoying every minute of it.
And, in case you were thinking along the lines of privileged education etc., my mother is an estate agent, my father a docker, and I was the first in my family to ever go to University. Everyone has, since.
I *do* value intelligence (hell, I require it of interviewees). I just don't value Mensa tests. They're about as useful a measure of basic intelligence as the colour of the sky is of tomorrow's weather. "Red sky at night" will get you so far, but it's only a weighted average. Point made, I think.
Simon
Re:So what ? (Score:5, Insightful)
We shouldn't mix social skills and intelligence. IQ by itself doesn't mean anything anymore. That way if you were a 99.99999 percentile, doesn't mean shit. You need emotional maturity to carry you through life. That way, except for those who want to boost up their egos, being a Mensan doesn't prove anything.
I look at Mensa as more of a common grounds for people to meet. Mensans I know are willing to help other Mensans. I have known people who made CEOs, who were entrepreneurs, MBAs so on. What I get is contacts. So, if I need guidance or advice, they are more than willing to help.
When one slashdot user meets another, there is an instant recognition. An instant willingness to help. (In India, the number of people who read slashdot are few). Mensa is pretty much the same thing. Atleast thats what I look at it.
Mensa is great (Score:3, Insightful)
My favorite I've seen is a Mensa sticker on a beat-up Honda with no rear-bumper. Yeah, probably a teacher or something, which is a great and noble profession, but whatever happened to spending 5 or 10 years and getting a nest-egg to live comfortably(at least to repair the car and make it street legal! this one was really bad!).
Ah well, Mensa is the most intelligent Trivia people I've ever met, some are amazing and intelligence and pure genius, most are doped-up idiots. Sorry, even the country club will have intelligent people and idiots, Mensa is no different, no gold though.
Re:So what ? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, I'm saying that IQ is not all that is there to intelligence.
You may get a fewer false positives, but you will get a lot of false negatives - lots of intelligent people who're good at other things might flunk the tests.
> What is intelligence, then, and how do you
> measure it?
There is no single measure, which was exactly my point.
Intelligence is not one thing, and you cannot have a single quantitative measure of it and label it as, "If you do well in these these tests, you'll fall under the top 1-2% of the intelligent folks in the world".
That is absolute bullshit. Solving mathematical and logical problems is just one facet of intelligence, there are several others - many, many more.
What about folks who cook amazingly well? Or paint amazingly well? Or who have a skill for language? There are a million other things - these could be people who'd not touch math or logic with a 10 foot pole, but could probably be extremely intelligent, in their own way.
I mean, would you say Michelangelo is dumb if he flunked a few multiple choice questions you threw at him? I think not. That was just my point.
> (For what it's worth, I think IQ, intelligence,
> and Mensa are all overrated).
Yup, you're spot on.
Fuck 'em (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So what ? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a sciences guy - I feel extremely comfortable under quantitative stuff, and do quite well in stuff related to that, too.
However, I know for a fact that I suck at qualitative stuff - and I've seen lots of people for whom those qualitative abilities are second nature. And some of these people lack the mathematical and logical skills that I do not find all that extraordinary.
Inherently, I've always known that I'll be in the sciences. And some of those folks have always known that they'd be in the arts.
The difference is, the society considers my abilities to be intelligence for the simple reason that it has easy, tangible, real world application. And perhaps because I fall under the minority of folks who are enjoy doing this stuff.
However, that does not necessarily make me smarter than them, atleast in my book. I know for a fact that I couldn't draw for nuts, even if I took lessons my entire life. Or for that matter, analyze and come up with designs. Or a lot of other things. These people can, and that is just no different from the way I do a math problem.
It is all the same, we're just using different abilities that each of us has been gifted with, that is all.
While I would agree that it is overrated, I would also add that its definition is being skewed by a handful few.
Re:So what ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I had to say it..... [sorry] (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:So what ? (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree. Scrolling through the list of negative comments about mensa so far, more and more it's beginning to smell a bit like sour grapes.
Re:So what ? (Score:4, Insightful)
Mensa claims to have the top 1-2% of the intelligentsia of the human population, but establishes the standard for this intelligence on the mere ability to solve mathematical and logical problems.
That would imply that they measure intelligence solely as a function of one's ability to solve these kinda problems, and anyone who does not fit the bill isn't smart enough for them.
They can go ahead and do all that they want, but the fact that they club the rest of the world into a "you're not smart enough to join us" lump does grate on me.
How would you react to a worldwide club of intelligentsia who say that only those who paint Spunky (as another reader put it) will be considered intelligent?
That's how Mensa sounds to me - quite ridiculous. Their basis of what they consider intelligence is amusing, that's all.
Mensa Members (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't envy, when I took an IQ test I was literally off the scale. The highest standardised test score in the history of my school district was 176, I scored 212. I was disqualified from an 'intellectual' competition because I scored 98, when the second highest of over 100 others was 76, and I completed the quiz in 15 minutes of the alloted hour; they believed I must have cheated somehow.
But I'm smart enough to know that the value of a person has nothing to do with standard test scores.
While working at MS I treated the janitors with the same respect as my managers, because I knew that without eighter of them, the job wouldn't get done. One amusing moment was when the local grocery store clerk said she liked people like me, unlike those stuck up people who work at Microsoft, which was where I was working at the time.
I may be able to craft an exceptional peice of software, recall what portion of a page in a novel a sentance appeared on, and instantly remember 10 digit numbers backwards; but I can't draw worth a damn, can't sing, or play a musical instrument, am a terrible speller, and can't parellel park.
Everyone has different abilities, and just because someone is Rich, Smart, or Pretty; dosn't make them a good person.
Re:make sense (Score:1, Insightful)
and yet jobs are offerred for MCSE's - never seen mensa on a job ad. It's easy to knock something you've never tried tho. Oh yeah - of course you wouldn't want to, can't be bothered wasting your time or (much more likely) don't really have a clue
and no - i don't have mcse - but after looking through the material I can acknowledge that it does have some depth
Re:So what ? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not to say everyone in Mensa is that way, but we both chose not to associate with a group that seemed to base its membership requirements on ideals that commonly (though not always) predicate extreme arrogance.
Not at all (Score:4, Insightful)
Eh? I'm not a Mensa member, but I am a member of a social sports club and an amateur astronomical society. They're called extra-curricular activities, and they're a very good way to meet interesting people with common interests and attitudes.
Both of my groups are full of people with whom I share common interests, and both are full of great contacts for other things in life if I ever want help. How is that different from Mensa, and how does that make any of these like an "old boy network"?
Just as my and many other people's interests happen to be in a certain area shouldn't mean that someone else's interests shouldn't be allowed to be in the realm of puzzle solving and so on, and whatever else Mensan's engage in.
Re:So what ? (Score:2, Insightful)
A favorite quotation of mine may say it better:
"Genius consists in nothing but love; if you love to do something, then you are a genius."
(Wm. Morris Hunt, American artist, 19th. C.)
Re:Ah. You tried to get into mensa.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So what ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Mensa Members (Score:2, Insightful)
-Jay
Re:has to be said (Score:1, Insightful)
People have to pay to Google if they want to use Google's search engine in their website. But Microsoft has to pay to people to get them to use MSN's search on their website.
Re:So what ? (Score:1, Insightful)
Mensa and Myths about Nerds (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, Mensa is a social club with highly self-selected membership. I'm not sure that its members are any weirder than members of Parents without Partners, a Sci-Fi Con, or an athletic club.
There's nothing wrong with a social club that draws together people with a common interest. It is just that in Mensa the common interest is one's own intelligence, with a tacit subtext of "only people who know how smart I am appreciate me, and I appreciate only people who are as smart as me."
I have never been a Mensa member; I have never been tempted to be a Mensa member for the reasons cited. I know some, but remarkably few, Mensa members. They haven't convinced me that Mensa members have enough genuine common interests to form a cohesive social club.
Re:Ah. You tried to get into mensa.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Being gifted is a terrible weight to carry for a child, because it shows and constantly expose you to jealous behaviours and sarcasms from other kids, their parents, not to speak of teachers. You spend years in schools trying to offer the smallest surface of yourself to the view of others - unsucessfuly, in general.
You think that it'll get better in college ? Nope, wrong. In adulthood ? Nope. Wherever you go, you are surrounded by the same poisoned atmosphere when people realise you think faster than they do. When you're that bright, yu soon understand what it was to be suspect of wichcraft.
Look at this thread : full of hatred against those folks, because they dare claim they're smart. Would they have claimed any other talent such as music or painting, there would be applauses of joy, but logical intelligence must be hidden.
So I understand those people like to gather, just to meet some of their kind. And I think there's a form of therapy in it. Bragging about it being part of the therapy, just like the AAs.
Being gifted is a curse most of the time.
Re:So what ? (Score:4, Insightful)
In fact, when the literacy geek will explain him what the book was really about, he'll laugh a lot and tell him to quit smoking pot. If the author wanted to mean that, he would have clearly written it !
The literacy geek won't care, he knows most scientists can only understand what has been clearly explained at them, and that their logical mind comes short in any situation where logic is not the key (that is, 95% of real world situations).
The literacy geeks accepts that the world, and the people around him are infinitely complex, and that every action or word can be understood when looked at in the right light. Them computer geeks just thinks that everybody is dumber than him, because their logic can't fit in their little categorizing mind. They don't even try to understand others. In other words, if the document doesn't parse, it's because the document is badly structured. It can't be my parser which needs adjustments, because i know i have the finest parser on earth !
Re:So what ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not at all (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ah. You tried to get into mensa.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Being gifted is not a curse - failing to develop socially is. I know plenty of really smart people who were popular - mainly because being smart did not define them. They played sports, were into music, one did pyrotechnics effects for plays - all things that *were* of interest to others. They're all nice, well rounded people who happen to be smart - and are fun to be around because discussions center on things besides IQ and tests.
Yea, nobody wanted to be around the kid that bragged about a 100 on a test - and the really smart ones figured it out and developed other interests as well.
You think that it'll get better in college ? Nope, wrong. In adulthood ? Nope. Wherever you go, you are surrounded by the same poisoned atmosphere when people realize you think faster than they do. When you're that bright, you soon understand what it was to be suspect of witchcraft.
I don't know about your experiences, but my college experiences didn't involve poisoned atmospheres for bright people. My roommate, for example, was brilliant - nearly a 4.0 in Mech Eng / Nuke Eng, aced tests by simply reading 100 pages of a textbook the night before an exam, yet he was very well liked and respected member of my fraternity. Why? Because his intelligence did not define him. He had great social skills, and if you needed help in a course he'd take the time to explain things until you understood them.
Look at this thread : full of hatred against those folks, because they dare claim they're smart. Would they have claimed any other talent such as music or painting, there would be applauses of joy, but logical intelligence must be hidden.
No, the "hatred" is toward folks who seem to think intelligence is somehow valuable or makes someone better than another. IQ isn't a skill, nor is it particularly valuable - what is worth recognition is what you do with it.
We've all met bright people that exude the impression that because you're "not as bright" or didn't get as high a test score that you're not in their league. Any wonder people treat them like they're an ass?
You could replace Mensa with "people who think that living in a high rent zip code form closed social club" and you'd get many of the same responses. And you know what - many of the people who would meet that criteria are nice people who are well liked, and a few are pompous asses who think they're disliked because of where they live; never realizing that they would be pompous assess and treated as such no matter where they are.
Being gifted is a curse most of the time.
No, the curse is thinking being gifted is something you think others really care about.
Re:Ah. You tried to get into mensa.... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not that it must be hidden, it's that you must not flaunt it at the expense of others. Insulting the intelligence of others even in a catharic manner is unacceptable. Half of life is getting along with other people. With making sure others feel as though they are part of the process.
I absolutely agree that bright children have it hard. Does it suck that people of "average intelligence" engage in this behavior? Yes. Does it give a person based on thier intellect the right to return the favor? No. To put it in the terms of my grandmother (who only had an 8th grade education); Smart kids tend to have a lot of "book sense", but no "common sense". And trust me, growing up she tossed that one at me enough that it eventually stuck.
I don't think there's many people that use this forum that haven't been ostracized due to thier percieved intellect. And a fair number I can assure you, don't have that all important "common sense". In order to succeed socially, you have to be people savvy to an extent; and maintain an attitude of juggling the egos of others, not adding to or inflaming thier insecurities.
It's one thing to proclaim how bright you are, and to execute/apply that intellect at the expense of others. It is another simply to note that you are a person that knows a fair amount, but can always learn something else. Something new.
As for me, I've seen a lot of credentials tossed about in this conversation. I have some. Not that they mean much. I noted that long ago. It's not an accurate indicator of intellect.
I've also been the kid ostracized for being bright. Add on to that culturally ostracized for showing interest in things my peers considered 'white' (although I don't agree with his outlook on it, read John McWhorter's "Losing The Race: Self Sabotage In Black America" for more on that). I even remember thinking that indeed, I am brighter than most. But most of all, I remember my grandmother telling me that I may be bright, but I still don't know shit.
Re:So what ? (Score:1, Insightful)
Mensa use a recognised test for IQ, you could also join with other standardised tests.
And yes, a measure of IQ is easiest to take using math and logic questions, not a freaking guitar playing test. This covers most of the population but it isn't guaranteed to catch all intelligent people.
Re:So what ? (Score:1, Insightful)
Actually, I've seen data that says the opposite. Republicans are more informed overall about politics (ie the more informed you are, the more likely you are to be a Republican) and have higher average income, education, and intelligence than Democrats. Consider that the Democrats largest demographic group non-college-educated people with under $30,000 in income.
Aside from some specific elites, ie, leftist/marxist professors and hollywood elites, the general rule is the
more educated, intelligent, higher-paid, etc. you are, the more likely you are to be Republican.
The countertrend to this is post-graduate degreed vs College degreed now leans more Democrat; the extreme is being an academic, where the Democrat to Republican ratios reach absurd levels (they exclude Republicans from some faculty lounges more effectively than the segregationists excluded blacks). The Leftist hold on academia cannot really be considered an intelligence thing as much as a self-selection mechanism for capitalists (business) and anti-capitalists (work for govt/academia/arts).
As for Mensa 'falling' for the 'official' story on Sept 11th. LOL. uh, maybe it's because that version is the truth. Check your 911 Commission Report for details. And there is nothing wrong with considering the President one of our heroes.
Re:So what ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Further, many of the questions on IQ tests tend to be what are known as "trick" questions. The only way that most mortals can do well on such a test is to blindly memorize the answers. After that, it's a piece of cake. If one pays attention at Mensa meetings, one will notice that most members enjoy solving obscure puzzles, it shouldn't be a mystery why. So, you are also testing for one's willingness to blindly memorize useless trivia, and to work on esoteric, abstract problems. Is it any wonder that such genius's are so detached from reality that they think Bush is a great man?
It kind of reminds me of star trek deep space 9, where the only noticeably unique feature about the genetically engineered genius doctor is that he has a slight British accent. My belief is that IQ is primarily a test of whiteness. Not necessarily the color of your skin, but whiteness in the sense that you've been sheltered from the problems of the world, are well-trained by "educational" institutions to think in a certain way, and to eagerly solve the problems that one is asigned. An intellectual lap dog. Any resentment of the dominant culture is likely to interfere with one's willingness to memorize bullshit trivia and eagerly work on assigned tasks.