Israeli Army Frowns on D&D 984
Big Rob found us a gem of a story about the Israeli Army frowning on D&D players. Apparently '18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.' I especially enjoyed the pictures of D&D players with swords, as generally the only thing in my hand during D&D is soda and/or swiss cake rolls.
I'm thinking that a few generals should meet up with Jack Chick and have a good long discussion about the evils of role playing.
I like D&D (Score:5, Funny)
It Could Be Worse (Score:5, Funny)
Heck, you'd think they'd get a leg up for it--for example, as D&D precludes any and all contact with females, they run no risk of sexual transgression whatsoever!
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:3, Insightful)
This movie has to be, despite being horribly scripted and acted, one of the most damaging things done to roleplaying. What's really funny is that Hanks' real-life counterpart didn't go nuts, but in fact had a gay liason and made up the story.
I've had a very Fun
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:5, Interesting)
In his autobiography 'Black Boy', Richard Wright recalls his grandmother's attitude towards his writing. She believed that fiction was the work of the Devil. Paraphrasing: 'You writin' down things that ain' true. Tha's the Devil's work, boy.' (My apologies to Richard Wright for my crude approximation of his characteristic style.)
Things are getting a little better as time goes on, I hope.
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:3, Insightful)
You're generalizing. Video games are very popular, but so are collectable card games, comics, tabletop roleplaying, miniatures gaming (D&D Minis are HOT on eBay right now, and kids are buying most of them for "warbands"), etc.
I suggest you think of kids as very small adults, and then imagine the generalization, "these adults these days aren't interested in any OS that doesn't h
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think anybody is saying that she does represent the sum total of Fundementalist Christianity. However, you have to admit, there are a number of
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, this is the same calibre of people who find pro-gay messages in Sponge Bob and Teletubbies. I've known quite a few roleplayers in fairly fundementalist churches who have had to abandon their hobby after being pressured or outright threatened with being given the boot. I think it's sad, and I do get mad that a perfectly reasonable and enjoyable recreational hobby is so misunderstood and maligned.
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:3, Insightful)
As a person married to a Catholic, I find the above generalization ludicrous, and of the same kind of rudimentary thinking as that which leads people to say roleplayers are devil-worshipping lunatics. Whatever Christianity's sources (and it's a lot more complex than simply an o
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:3, Insightful)
Can't a guy poke fun at idiotic stereotypes without somebody actually thinking I seriously believe that all people who play D&D are male and will never feel the warmth of a woman's touch?
Seriously, are you really that incapable of parsing written English? Do I need to start add little disclaimers to every
Roll the dice... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Roll the dice... (Score:5, Funny)
Forgive my inexperience, but how does anyone get the Suicide Bomber class past level 1?
Re:Roll the dice... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Roll the dice... (Score:5, Informative)
(yes, Hamas and al Qaeda are both guilty of this)
Re:Roll the dice... (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm no cleansing nazi (godwin!), but if someone had a gun to my head and forced me to choose between the suicide bombing of 100 "average" people, or 200 mental retards, I'd choose the latter. *gasp!* Not until the ratio got up to around 20:1 would I rationally favor the murder of the normal group. *GASP!!!* (At this point my empathy for the familys of the larger retard group outweighs
Re:Roll the dice... (Score:3, Insightful)
That's nothing - (Score:5, Funny)
Wait 'til you hear what they do to recruits who admit they read Slashdot!
Actually.. (Score:5, Interesting)
However, it should be noted that this was news to me, as I know quite a few people who played or still play D&D and other RPGs (I did, too) and served in highly classified jobs (Like myself).
Also, a prominent Israeli portal posted this caricature [nana.co.il] about the issue.
The guy on the dragon is saying (Very loosely translated) "I won't go anywhere but Golani", which is an elite unit.
And for the Slashdot crowd, the artist (Miki Mottes) was once the Sysop of a major Israeli BBS.
There's a good reason (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:There's a good reason (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are going to make broad generalizations about D&D players, I'll go ahead and say are you sure you want a bunch of pasty white never been outside dice rollers carrying around guns in a battlefield not taking orders because they are "thinking for themselves?".
Nope, but dont worry, this former D&D player was all state, all conference, MVP, etc in HS and college waterpolo. Not all D&D players are your typical generalization. Nor are all of them imaginative.
Depends on the level (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:There's a good reason (Score:5, Insightful)
Nail, meet hammer. (Score:4, Insightful)
Being impressionable and in a sensitive position means you are ripe for the harvest in a counter intelligence situation. You will be much easier to convert to the opposition's cause as it will be much easier to have you see the issue from their point of view and develop sympathy for their position.
A flexible mindset isn't automatically an overly flexible mindset; it's just that much more prone to changes over time. A changed mindset and set of beliefs can manifest as treason.
So, in a way, the IDF is doing those soldiers a favor. They protecting Israel from an increased likelihood of treason, and they're protecting those soldiers from themselves.
Yeah, it's kind of a control freak thing, but it *is* a military organization.
Re:There's a good reason (Score:3, Interesting)
It seems that you might not have understood the bad effects of a soldier being impressionable, so I'll try to explain.
Re:There's a good reason (Score:5, Interesting)
That's exactly the sort of people you want in your army. Clueless nimrods who can't function if the expected parameters are altered are exactly what they should be trying to avoid.
I ship out to Marine boot camp Aug. 1st and people have told me over and over again that when I get there...I shouldn't stand out. D&D players are different...and normally very smart.
You assume that being smart will make you stand out in the military. Well, sorry to burst your bubble but the military has a LOT of smart people, and chances are your intelligence won't stand out as much as you think. Anyone who says "don't let on that you're smart" is really saying "don't spout off trying to be a know-it-all". Keeping your mouth shut and your eyes open (particularly when in boot camp) is the wisest course. Once you've been in a while you'll figure out when it's appropriate to offer your "smarts". Nobody (particularly drill sergeants) likes a wise-ass.
In an army you want drones who can think for themselves but will never question orders.
You got a lot to learn about the nature of the US military. Your description fits the old Soviet military, but not ours. In an army you want people who can understand an objective and modify an operational plan of the fly as the situation changes. Soldiers who stop and look at their commanding officer every time they run into an unexpected obstacle are worthless. I suspect you'll get quite an eye-opening education on this come 2005AUG01, courtesy of the US Marine Corps.
Why do you think the great dictators killed teachers???
Which "great dictators"? Name a dictator that had an effective army full of mindless, uneducated "drones". Name an effective army that wasn't backed by a solid educational system. Killing teachers is a move to solidify a political position, not to create an ignorant pool of cannon fodder.
As for the IDF automatically lowering RPG-ers security clearances, I think they're idiots. I spent 4 years in the US Army as a SIGINT analyst, and I'd say that fully half the people I worked with played role playing games. I wonder, do they think that D&D is "bad" and that hex-map war games are good? At what point does pretending you're Rommel the general become OK, vs. playing Skorzeny the commando? Is it the level of abstraction? Is it the medieval fantasy aspect of D&D? Perhaps it has to do with the fact that most people entering the IDF are there for compulsory service. I knew a lot of D&D dorks in high school who would never be a good fit for military service. The thing is, those of us dorks who were a good fit would have been stuck as truck drivers or something under an IDF-style rule. I think the IDF is tossing out the baby with the bathwater here, but hey, it's their stupid army.
Re:There's a good reason (Score:3, Insightful)
Current US doctrine calls for highly trained professional warriors. You don't get that with "Obey any and all dumb orders and don't think". They *WANT* people who show initiative. I've been a defense contractor for 20 years, and without exception, the people I've dealt with -- from E-1s up to 2-stars -- have been intelligent, capable people
Re:You're right. But wrong. (Score:5, Informative)
Simply not true. Our army and the soviet's army have a lot more in common than you think.
Hey, I'm not saying that the Red Army had a single strategy of "send wave after wave of cannon fodder until the enemy collapses" (though they did use this tactic on occasion in WW2). All I'm saying is that the Red Army did not value the same degree of "individual initiative" the US Army does. The fact of the matter is that the Red Army expected the officers and mid- to senior-grade NCOs to direct the actions of the privates and junior NCOs, and they were expected to obey. This is basically true of any army, but the Red Army took it to the extreme that (say) if their officers were killed, a motorized rifle platoon would often be at a loss to continue until they could get the company commander to assign an officer to them to relay orders. The divide between the "head" and the "body" was a lot wider, mostly because the filled the lower ranks with conscripts fulfilling their compulsory service.
Ask the Nazi's what they thought of the soviet army.
The Nazi high command mostly thought they were crazy hordes of untrained peasants, and that whatever skill they appeared to have in night fighting or camouflage was due to the "natural cunning of the slav" rather than training. Their asessment was, naturally, in error. My grandfather, a private in the Wehrmacht at Stalingrad, did not concur with this sentiment.
Re:There's a good reason (Score:4, Insightful)
Every person Ive known who was seriously into D&D has had just that, severe emotional problems. In college I was dating this gorgeous chick who was big into D&D, MUDs, LOTR, etc. It was a novelty for about a month... then it became appartent she was a complete basketcase using MUDs to only spend a few hours a day in this reality. Id ask her how her day went and shed blather on about the dragons in her games or something... She met another D&D addict and started dating him at the same time I was pressuring her to back off the MUDs and concentrate on things like paying the rent... you know what they say about getting inbetween people and their addictions.
Second story, I was hiring my replacement at my last sysadmin job ts a university research lab. The decision came down to a qualified guy, and a less qualified guy. The less qualified guy got the job due to some nepo/favoritism. First thing he does after I make his accounts is install MUD clients and ask "do you play DND?" I knew he was toast right there. After a months training, last thing I do on the last minute of my last day is run a L0 backup (the user accounts are worth hundreds of thousands if not millions). First thing the guy does the next morning, erase all the user accounts. Suprisingly they overlooked the ordeal, but after two months he was gone just the same.
I have had several other friends as well who had pretty bad problems, who played D&D. I think D&D attracts emotional problems like GTA attracts those violence nuts.
Re:There's a good reason (Score:3, Informative)
Why are you joining the Marines? If you think you're 'different' and 'very smart', then you're probably going to have a very difficult 4+ years....
I'm not all that different and I'm not even going to say I'm smart. As for why I'm going into the Marines? There's alot of reasons.
One, I think it will be good for me. I'm a high school senior, varsity soccer player, and all and all what you would call a computer nerd. I'm not that strong physically, nor do I pretend t
Re:There's a good reason (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember that you are still responsible for actions you take that are illegal or immoral, even when you are ordered to do so. There seems to be a lot of that going around lately.
D&D or LARP? (Score:5, Informative)
At least, that's what I get from all the pictures and quotations like "[soon] hundreds of fans are expected to meet in a forest in the southern part of Israel for a two-day game of pure fantasy."
Re:D&D or LARP? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:D&D or LARP? (Score:4, Interesting)
No, seriously, it has always struck me as rather odd that guys who sit around and collaboratively make up stories, be it about dragons or spaceships or spies, are considered weird, and yet guys who sit around memorizing and arguing passionately about statistics for rich athletes who they've never met and never will is considered perfectly normal. The athletes may be real but it's still fantasy to live vicariously through them. I think going out and PLAYING sports with my buddies is better than either, but for some reason being a sports fanatic is normal and RPGing is strange. I don't get it.
Re:D&D or LARP? (Score:5, Informative)
I wouldn't trust 'em either. (Score:5, Funny)
+1 smartbomb (Score:5, Funny)
Re:+1 smartbomb (Score:3, Funny)
One...Two...Five!
Three Sir!
Three!
I'd think they would want them... (Score:3, Insightful)
Apparently I must be mentally unbalanced though, so don't trust my judgment on that one. I'm all detached from reality and stuff.
Games Help to Think Unconventionally (Score:3, Interesting)
(This isn't a jab at the Jewish faith at all. I'm about to join the Catholic faith myself, but the question is there, as I'll explain.)
There are a few studies that show positives with game playing. At heart, a proper game based on reality or fantasy settings in an Earth-like setting is a simulation. Sims teach with low costs and reduce or eliminate the expenses needed in live training. Twitch games aid in dexterity and coordination, of course.
And the US Army believes that a good sim of their work is also not only a fun game, but a great recruiting tool. [americasarmy.com]
While board games like D&D itself may not show an immediate dividend to fighting a war, consider that any game helps plot strategy, conserve resources, and deal consequence.
Game playing may help a soldier think "outside of the box" in a combat situation where unusual solutions with conventional weapons and tactics may prove worthwhile. It seems that the Israeli Army may decide to stick to convention.
Weird... (Score:3, Interesting)
They do ask you about your hobbies when you go through recruitment (at 16 years old). They may assume that people who play fantasy games are a 'security risk', but they definitely recognize that kids who play complex rule-based cooporative games in their teens
The Israeli army tends to know how to assign people to jobs they'd be good at. And use the rest for cannon fodder. Or, in my case, tell them to just stay home if it's all the same.
That's Awesome (Score:3, Funny)
Hah! (Score:3, Interesting)
Ynetnews has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.
"They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence," the army says.
So, if you're "detached from reality," or as some people call it, "creative," you're subject to "influence"? So no Israeli soldier has an original thought, ever?
No wonder the country is in such a fucked up situation...
The head of the IDF then said... (Score:5, Funny)
before he hefted a beer keg over his head while all his frends chanted "ogre, ogre, ogre".
It wasn't a problem in is US Army in the 80's (Score:5, Interesting)
I think it has to do more with being creative and maybe anti-establishment. My squad (and I) would often ruffle brass when we did something that worked and worked well BUT wasn't by the book.
Oh well, that was 20 years ago. Now the US Army just wants bodies...
And this is news? (Score:4, Funny)
Elmar, a level 12 half elf thief walks into a college party:
Rolling 20 sided die, possible outcomes:
1-15 Every girl there that happens to notice Elmar laughs and shakes their head sadly - Charisma -3
16-18 Other partygoers dump beer on nerd taunting him unmercifully - Defense -3
19 Jocks perform +5 super atomic wedgie on Elmar grievously injuring him
20 It is dark in the closet you are locked in. You are likely to be eaten by a GRUE.
It's everywhere and everytime the same... (Score:3, Interesting)
Let me comment some headers of TFA:
'Simply detached from reality'
Does mean subject is mentally independent from factual perception, able to create experience according his own intentions. That allows him potentially diverge from lined propaganda. Note, the military propaganda is also somewhat "detached from reality", but other, organized and controlled way.
'The game indicates a weak personality'
"Strong personality" in military sense is someone who obeys all commands unquestionably and is capable to force them out to the lower levels. Higher intellect, which is often a characteristic for D&D players, is not a bonus for performing something that "does not make sense to do" in critical situation. Actually, in D&D all good players are very picky about what does make sense to do in dangerous conditions. Sometimes, simply stand and fight is not an option in dungeon and players already know about it.
Jack Chick (Score:5, Funny)
YHBT. YHL. FOAD. (Score:5, Informative)
"Ynetnews" is written much like another "news" site I know: an outrageous headline, some carefully omitted facts, and a long enough article so that the majority (read: ADD) of readers get the "facts" the author intended, instead of the actual truth. That truth is buried at the bottom (probably to avoid litigation due to libel) of the article, natch.
According to the actual facts, if you say you play D&D (not "D and D," dumbass), you are "evaluated." Note that evaluation is not always performed by a Psychologist, ("usually" != always). And then
Note that they didn't say that the people who are evaluated are only the ones who admit to playing D&D; surely there are other reasons that could make one eligible for "evaluation." In fact, they could have ONLY ONE GUY who admitted to playing D&D, got evaluated and received a low security clearance, and their entire article could be true.
One last thing: a real news site's editors would stamp out something like
So my guess is "Ynetnews" subscribes to the same story editing that /. does: queue's getting big, this one sounds good, post it, is it a
dupe? who cares; just pass the gin 'n' juice.
Makes sense (Score:3, Funny)
US Military doesn't seem to share the opinion (Score:3, Interesting)
They gave me a TS SCI clearance. Also, the Army hired me years later and gave me a Secret... (or they tried... I quit before it came through, nearly two years later. Still, I had a interim secret clearance for that period)
On the other hand... If anyone had ever stuck a gun in my hand and told me to shoot someone, I'd have probably deserted.
Is it just me? (Score:3, Funny)
Soldier = "LIGHTNING BOLT!!! LIGHTNING BOLT!!"
Enemy in big homemade suit = "RAWGRAWGRAWRG"
Soldier = "LIGHTNING BOLT!!! LIGHTNING BOLT!!"
Aight... (Score:3, Funny)
Put Them on the Group W bench (Score:5, Funny)
"I went over to the sargent, said, "Sargeant, you got a lot a damn gall to ask me if I've rehabilitated myself, I mean, I mean, I mean that just, I'm sittin' here on the bench, I mean I'm sittin here on the Group W bench 'cause you want to know if I'm moral enough join the army, burn women, kids, houses and villages after bein' a litterbug." He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send you fingerprints off to Washington."
it's LARPing not D&D(bad translation) (Score:5, Informative)
A world of make-believe... (Score:3, Insightful)
Um, let's say someone believes that his country has a right to occupy a piece of land because 3000 or so years ago his ancestor obediently offered up his son to be a human sacrifice because a voice he heard in his head told him to. The voice in his head later rescinded its instructions to kill the guy's son, because he showed that he would value the approval of the voice in his head over that of a little boy one of his wives dropped off for him. This of course showed that human sacrifice was a-okay with the people of time, of course, but that's a talk for another time.
Okay, and then we have the guy who obtained great favor with his voice in his head when he offered up his virgin daughter to the mob for rape and/or murder if the would leave the three guys (who he suspected to be angels) alone.
Then we another guy who listened to the voice in HIS head which told him to clear town with his family because the voice was fixing to burn everyone alive because they were pissing the voice off. A wife looked back as they were leaving, the guy says, and was turned into a box of Morton's salt. At least that's what he told her kin when they asked where the hell she was.
Then we have the guy who heard a voice telling him to build a boat, put two of everything in it, and wait out a world flood which later no one else remembers happening, like, say, the Chinese, having been around for 4000 years or more.
That's reality-based community, not like them D&D fantasists.
You wouldn't want people who had strange ideas about reality in the ranks of your specialist armed forces.
TFA contradicts itself (Score:4, Informative)
Ynetnews has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.
Then, later:
"One of the tests we do, either by asking soldiers directly or through information provided us, is to ask whether they take part in the game," he says. "If a soldier answers in the affirmative, he is sent to a professional for an evaluation, usually a psychologist."
More than half of the soldiers sent for evaluation receive low security clearances, thus preventing them from serving in sensitive IDF positions, he says.
Half of the soldiers being given low security clearances after being sent for psychological evaluation isn't the same thing as "automatic." Which one is it, Ynet?
Exactly what aspects do they disagree with (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:5, Insightful)
but if IDF says that people who indulge in fantasy games, as a statistical group, have personality traits that make them a lower security risk, then I am inclined to believe them.
"They're really smart. They must know what they're talking about."
One possible characteristic not mentioned in TFA was: People who role-play might be more inclined to game the system - definitely not a desirable personality trait to have in personnel deployed in sensitive positions.
WTF? "Game the system"? If you play D&D you realize that "gaming the system" gets you in Shitsville with the game referee (the much maligned "Dungeon Master"). So if anything, D&D players are LESS inclined to "game the system".
I can't decide if you're an innocent clueless asshat or a troll. And I'm a fairly discerning reader. So hats off to you!
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You got it wrong (Score:3, Funny)
Re:You got it wrong (Score:4, Funny)
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Informative)
While discipline IS essential, absolute discipline is not. Possibly the most important thing for an elite unit is being smart and adaptable. If you receive an order to destroy an enemy observation post so a surprise attack can occur, but find a machine gun nest with a good field of fire, it may be more important to destroy that first. You need to be smart to realize that is more important, and adaptable to change your plans to cope with it. If you blindly follow your orders, more people are going to die.
Smart + Adaptable > absolute discipline
If absolute discipline were all that was required of an elite unit, why would intelligence be a requirement for those elite units? Want to join the SEALs, Marine Force Recon, FAST Battalion or Green Berets? You better be able to score well on general intelligence tests and on practical tests within your field. If discipline was the be-all end-all of elite units then they would be full of people who couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag.
BTW - While I was at the SEAL training facility in Virginia, they didn't worry about polished boots. They didn't worry about having their utilities pressed. They didn't worry about their appearance. They worried about what their job was and how to be ready for it.
I played D&D, AD&D, Top Secret, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Top Secret SI and Robotech. I also MUDed way too many hours.
I was also a Marine Rifleman. I served with the Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team (FAST) Co. Have achievement medals from the Marines and the Army (Joint Operation). Was a squad leader and a platoon sergeant and a company gunnery sergeant; and I wanted people who could think on their own in my squad/platoon/company.
Also, the Marines doctrine was based on mission accomplishment and not absolute discipline. So your statement of "all military doctrine" kind of goes out the window.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Funny you should mention that. Orthodox are not subject to the draft.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, you're confusing self discipline in personal details with conformation to doctrinal procedures. As an avid D&D player in High School, a West Point grad and an ex M1 officer, I can tell you that if you can't think on your feet and figure out a new way to skin the cat, you won't survive long in mobile armored warfare, let alone dismounted urban warfare.
Recognize also the level you were working at and your particular unit. You didn't get to see how creative your battalion commander had to get to handle his missions with the incredibly lean Ranger force.
If you still doubt me, go back to some of the officers you admired most and ask them about operational and tactical flexibility. Get comfortable, you'll be there a while.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
- General George Patton Jr
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Informative)
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
I work with a retired Air Force Captain who has the same perspective. As he explains it, either the officers ordered the troops to mistreat the prisoners, or they didn't have control of their troops. Neither is excusable for an officer in the armed forces.
The corollary being that the soldiers who are taking the blame for it are, in a way, scapegoats, because the liability goes up the chain and somebody is getting away with it.
They want very particular types of initiative, in particular the initiative to take command of a situation when necessary. What they do not want is people who question authority.
I did some research a while back on the differences between eastern and western military doctrine in World War II. One of the keys was the the Soviets, for various reasons, allowed very little command flexibility in their ranks. Operations were planned to extremely minute details and all subordinates were expected to stick to the plan no matter what (one big reason was they had poor communications infrastructure to change the plan dynamically).
The west, in contrast, had less detailed plans, and relied on their officers adapting their tactics to the facts on the ground as they appeared.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:3, Interesting)
"The reason the American Army is so good at war is that war is chaos, and the American military practices chaos on a daily basis." - From a World War II German Army War Manual
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Funny)
A good laugh, if anything.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:5, Interesting)
The numbers they cite where pointless. How many people would not qualify for high clearence if ALL recruits went to see the psychiatrist? who knows.
Another case where someone who does something different has to experience bigitory. Personally, I would welcome some good open studies on role-players. The few that where done(that I know of) never found in results worth reporting.
I say this as someone who has play role-playing games since '76*.
*I loath to put out how long I have been playing, because I hate those 'I've been playing for x years therefore I am right' types. I do feel that disclosure is neccessary for context in this discussion.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:4, Funny)
"They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence," the army says. "Also, many of them read Slashdot, and we find those ones have especially small genitalia."
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Something carried on 60 minutes (take with whativer size grain of salw you wish) One other thing you may wish to consider, few of the radical-right, orhtodox jews, serve in combat rolls in the IDF. Why? Because they're religious scholars and exempt from such duty. Yet, they are usually the ones howling the loudest about how it's their promised land and establish these lovely settlements in whatever speck of land the palestinians have left. You can usually tell, when you see some footage on TV, these people are heavily armed and ready to die for their house on the pile of rocks they claimed for themselves. They also tend to have larger families and are expected to control the majority of the electorate in a country where the armed forces are mostly composed of the secular or moderate jews.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Being in the military is, by necessity, to be part of a team and the team has to come first,
D&D, and most other role-playing games are exactly the embodiment of this. They are about teams achieving things, and it is not uncommon for one member to make a personal (or ultimate) sacrifice so that the team can achieve their goal. What they seldom have however, is a strict hierachy. This is a good thing in that the team learns to work together through willing co-operation and pooling creativity and knowledge. In practice, this is not how a [modern Western] military unit operates. Instead, they condition soldiers to obey orders and not question.
If there is any basis for the Israeli army's bias other than ignorance, then it is the creativity and ability to think away from the official point of view that is the "problem."
Just too many D&D'ers must ask themselves what is the alignment of my army, and come up with the answer Lawful Evil.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:4, Funny)
That's right. The military would certainly reject me on the grounds that I am Chaotic Evil, and just as likely to fire on my comrades as the enemy --- discriminating bastards.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, if you have any concrete examples to the contrary (regarding the training of the soldiers), I would like to hear them, but for now, it just seems that you're making this up (or heavily extrapolating).
As with many things, a lot of it comes down to your own view, reflected in the choice of words. It's like the difference between cult and religion depending on which side you're on.
And with Army induction, you could call it training or brainwashing according to your opinion.
First off - killing. This is not something that comes naturally to the vast majority of people. It takes an extraordinary amount of pressue for most people to go as far as murder. To bring these people to the point at which they will kill requires extensive conditioning. My source for this was a talk given by a US Marine in a documentary in which he cited casualty statistics from WWII and modern psychological testing that came out with about 2/100 people being "natural killers." Clearly something radical has been done to the completed soldiers if they are now nearly all capable of killing (not that there may not be psychological trauma afterwards).
Now as to the actual techniques of how this is achieved, I'll offer the following examples. Note that this is only an outline of techniques that on "the other side" would be considered brainwashing.
Firstly, links to existing social values must be severed.
Secondly, links to the new social values must replace them.
Common techniques used by cults, professional interrogators, etc. that are in common with the army are as follows:
Hopefully, it can be seen how these support the above goals of bringing the recruits personal values into line with the army's and fostering dependance. Of course, the graduate of this, will see it as pride in the army, serving a greater cause or simply having endured it and "become a man." Of course, regardless of whatever has been gained, the recruit has traded in some measure of his own ability to measure the value of things and accepted the value system of the organization. As I said at the start of this, whether you want to regard it as brainwashing or training, is up to you. If you consider however, that psychologically, the exact same process and attitude change is gone through by an Al-Quaeda soldier in Afghanistan (by incidentally, the US Army trained Osama bin Laden) just as with a US marine, then you might feel a certain cognitive dissonance if you think of them as different. In both cases, recruits come to obey the orders and beliefs without questioning them.
I remember a kid who was half-way through boot camp, telling me gleefully how he was on whatever his jargon term was for latrine duty. He took pride in enduring the punishment - doing it by hand! He was one of the best examples of the effectiveness of these techniques I'd ever met. He was boasting about having to scoop out shit with his bare hands.
Oh come on, do you even know how Israeli soldiers are trained, or are you just relying on your political views of Israel?
You know nothing about my political views at the time of posting, so please spare me irrelevant and baseless personal
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:5, Insightful)
There was a point in time where ECT in mental institutions was commonplace because it was endorsed by the American Psychology Association.
Today, we know that ECT only helps certain cases of clinical depression, and is used only in extreme cases when no other solution exists.
If you go further back with the same association, they used to perform labotamies. Do you think that practice is done today?
We need to be critical of experts. You cannot always agree with experts.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that the experts, in most cases, aren't. They may be well-studied, but the more you focus on studying something, generally the less experience and up-to-date knowledge you have on it.
It's like a theory of academic relativity, or something.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:4, Insightful)
But everyone on slashdot seems to think that you should always disagree with experts.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:5, Funny)
Probably redundant by now, but oh well.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:4, Insightful)
I see some issues here. How many politicians "game the system", yet have never played D&D? Ted Kennedy probably never played, but he's one of the masters, you have to be if you can drive drunk, drown a girl and not lose your licence and face a few year's hard time like he should have. The same goes for car salespeople. Lawyers.
Also, IDF has a big name attached to them, but that doesn't make their claims necessarily true.
I can't say much as I've never played a collector card game or RPG.
IDF doesn't have smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Really? Doesn't seem so to me. Some possible theories why the IDF is skeptical of roleplayers (TFA says D&D, but seem to refer to RPGs and LARPs in general):
- RPGs do have a bad image due to some Christian fundamentalists spreading FUD. The same Christians are avid supporters of Israel and Zionism so maybe the IDF actually believed these guys.
- there's a higher percentage of left-l
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Insightful)
America isn't the only so-called civilized place with rightwingnuts who feel threatened by seculars and people who treat myths as myths and not as "historical documents". If anyone here is the risk, it's the guy who actually believes in things like demons and angels, as opposed to t
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Had he done it a second time, he'd have found his seat taken come the 3rd session.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, you can build an unrealistic combat monster this way, but a good GM will penalize players that do that by putting them in situations where they need non-combat skills to succede.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Role playing (Score:4, Insightful)
Roleplaying is a normal everyday occurrence, its part of learning about anyone who isn't yourself or any job you don't currently do (like the Model United Nations groups in High School).
The only difference here is that these people wield maces and fireballs in their fantasy world instead of bayonets and bazookas. I have to wonder if these people had chosen to play an Avalon Hill wargame, if they'd have been given higher clearances.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:4, Funny)
In fact, why stop there?
Next, they should refuse to give you a license for having played Burnout [slashdot.org]
(They should also pay you in kmart vouchers if you admit to ever having gambled in your life)
Re:the only thing in my hand during D&D is sod (Score:3, Informative)
Re:the only thing in my hand during D&D is sod (Score:5, Informative)
Re:the only thing in my hand during D&D is sod (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Right (Score:4, Interesting)
Not that they'd neccessarily agree on much in one-on-one dialog
Re:Right (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Right (Score:3, Insightful)
Make no mistake, I support the existence of Israel, but as a non-Christian, I find this sort of theological motivation more than a little frightening.
Re:Nope (Score:3, Interesting)
Quickie lesson:
Abraham in the Bible had 2 sons: Isaac, who is the father of modern day Jews, and Ishmael, who is the father of modern day Arabs. Jewish & Christian Scripture agree that God annointed Isaac, and therefore his descendants (the Jews) are God's people.
Islam tells us that the conniving Jews lied and changed the Bible so that Isaac got annoin
Re:Is Jack Chick gonna get /.'ed? (Score:3, Funny)
Aside from that, Black Leaf in the Chick tract is a hottie and Elfstar/Debbie should be played by Uma in Dark Dungeons: The Movie.
Re:SCA, not D&D (Score:3, Informative)
They don't look like the SCA, actually. The armor requirements in SCA are fairly strict, and they shouldn't be playing without head protection. The morning star in one picture is not SCA-legal, as it is an entangling weapon. The weapons pictured appear to be of the foam-covered type, which the SCA does use in its youth combat program, however as I said, other factors preclude this. (