Israeli Army Frowns on D&D 984
Big Rob found us a gem of a story about the Israeli Army frowning on D&D players. Apparently '18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.' I especially enjoyed the pictures of D&D players with swords, as generally the only thing in my hand during D&D is soda and/or swiss cake rolls.
I'm thinking that a few generals should meet up with Jack Chick and have a good long discussion about the evils of role playing.
D&D or LARP? (Score:5, Informative)
At least, that's what I get from all the pictures and quotations like "[soon] hundreds of fans are expected to meet in a forest in the southern part of Israel for a two-day game of pure fantasy."
Re:the only thing in my hand during D&D is sod (Score:3, Informative)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:1, Informative)
Furthermore, the very religious in Israel tend not to serve in the army (or at least try not to)- these are the people who are the most likely to take issue with the characters in D&D (and even then, it's not likely)
Re:Roll the dice... (Score:5, Informative)
(yes, Hamas and al Qaeda are both guilty of this)
Re:the only thing in my hand during D&D is sod (Score:5, Informative)
YHBT. YHL. FOAD. (Score:5, Informative)
"Ynetnews" is written much like another "news" site I know: an outrageous headline, some carefully omitted facts, and a long enough article so that the majority (read: ADD) of readers get the "facts" the author intended, instead of the actual truth. That truth is buried at the bottom (probably to avoid litigation due to libel) of the article, natch.
According to the actual facts, if you say you play D&D (not "D and D," dumbass), you are "evaluated." Note that evaluation is not always performed by a Psychologist, ("usually" != always). And then
Note that they didn't say that the people who are evaluated are only the ones who admit to playing D&D; surely there are other reasons that could make one eligible for "evaluation." In fact, they could have ONLY ONE GUY who admitted to playing D&D, got evaluated and received a low security clearance, and their entire article could be true.
One last thing: a real news site's editors would stamp out something like
So my guess is "Ynetnews" subscribes to the same story editing that /. does: queue's getting big, this one sounds good, post it, is it a
dupe? who cares; just pass the gin 'n' juice.
Re:There's a good reason (Score:3, Informative)
Why are you joining the Marines? If you think you're 'different' and 'very smart', then you're probably going to have a very difficult 4+ years....
I'm not all that different and I'm not even going to say I'm smart. As for why I'm going into the Marines? There's alot of reasons.
One, I think it will be good for me. I'm a high school senior, varsity soccer player, and all and all what you would call a computer nerd. I'm not that strong physically, nor do I pretend to know my way around firearms. When I'm in the Marines I have a feeling that will change.
Two, they're paying for my college. I'm a reservist for 4 years and then active duty for the next for. While in the reserves the Marines will pay for me to go to college (I've been accepted into Carnegie Mellon and Case Western but I haven't chosen yet).
Thrid? Because for 18 years of my life I really haven't done anything to protect the freedom that I'm lucky enough to have. Throughout history fellow Americans have sacrificed and even given their lives to protect this country. I felt it was my time to do something.
Re:SCA, not D&D (Score:3, Informative)
They don't look like the SCA, actually. The armor requirements in SCA are fairly strict, and they shouldn't be playing without head protection. The morning star in one picture is not SCA-legal, as it is an entangling weapon. The weapons pictured appear to be of the foam-covered type, which the SCA does use in its youth combat program, however as I said, other factors preclude this. (Adult combat uses rattan, a spongy type of wood also seen in some furniture.)
Since they name D&D regularly in the article, the players probably referred to themselves that way, though they're actually doing a LARP variant of D&D.
Re:the only thing in my hand during D&D is sod (Score:2, Informative)
So D&D begat AD&D begat AD&D 2nd Edition begat D&D 3rd Edition, which is really AD&D 3rd Edition, sorta kinda.
So D&D is not just the precursor any more. The name has come full circle.
Re:D&D or LARP? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Tissue or Kleenex? (Score:2, Informative)
it's LARPing not D&D(bad translation) (Score:5, Informative)
Re:You're right. But wrong. (Score:5, Informative)
Simply not true. Our army and the soviet's army have a lot more in common than you think.
Hey, I'm not saying that the Red Army had a single strategy of "send wave after wave of cannon fodder until the enemy collapses" (though they did use this tactic on occasion in WW2). All I'm saying is that the Red Army did not value the same degree of "individual initiative" the US Army does. The fact of the matter is that the Red Army expected the officers and mid- to senior-grade NCOs to direct the actions of the privates and junior NCOs, and they were expected to obey. This is basically true of any army, but the Red Army took it to the extreme that (say) if their officers were killed, a motorized rifle platoon would often be at a loss to continue until they could get the company commander to assign an officer to them to relay orders. The divide between the "head" and the "body" was a lot wider, mostly because the filled the lower ranks with conscripts fulfilling their compulsory service.
Ask the Nazi's what they thought of the soviet army.
The Nazi high command mostly thought they were crazy hordes of untrained peasants, and that whatever skill they appeared to have in night fighting or camouflage was due to the "natural cunning of the slav" rather than training. Their asessment was, naturally, in error. My grandfather, a private in the Wehrmacht at Stalingrad, did not concur with this sentiment.
TFA contradicts itself (Score:4, Informative)
Ynetnews has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.
Then, later:
"One of the tests we do, either by asking soldiers directly or through information provided us, is to ask whether they take part in the game," he says. "If a soldier answers in the affirmative, he is sent to a professional for an evaluation, usually a psychologist."
More than half of the soldiers sent for evaluation receive low security clearances, thus preventing them from serving in sensitive IDF positions, he says.
Half of the soldiers being given low security clearances after being sent for psychological evaluation isn't the same thing as "automatic." Which one is it, Ynet?
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:1, Informative)
Yes. Lets just brush aside that you're calling for ethnic cleansing of millions of people from their homes because you've ordained that they should live in Jordan just because they're the same race.
The Israelis have offered large chunks
The old "Barak's Generous Offer" [palestineremembered.com] myth rears its ugly head again. Here's a map that really drives its generosity home [palestineremembered.com].
Now can we get back to discussing role playing and whether or not that makes you a security risk?
Re:the only thing in my hand during D&D is sod (Score:3, Informative)
Re:A world of make-believe... (Score:1, Informative)
Check out what wikipedia has on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_Ark [wikipedia.org]
Truth is stranger than fiction.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It wasn't a problem in is US Army in the 80's (Score:1, Informative)
He was talking about Vietnam. You know during a draft when any man who had all his limbs and could be shown which end the bullet came out was considered "military material". With a volunetary military you can at least reject the real idiots.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Informative)
While discipline IS essential, absolute discipline is not. Possibly the most important thing for an elite unit is being smart and adaptable. If you receive an order to destroy an enemy observation post so a surprise attack can occur, but find a machine gun nest with a good field of fire, it may be more important to destroy that first. You need to be smart to realize that is more important, and adaptable to change your plans to cope with it. If you blindly follow your orders, more people are going to die.
Smart + Adaptable > absolute discipline
If absolute discipline were all that was required of an elite unit, why would intelligence be a requirement for those elite units? Want to join the SEALs, Marine Force Recon, FAST Battalion or Green Berets? You better be able to score well on general intelligence tests and on practical tests within your field. If discipline was the be-all end-all of elite units then they would be full of people who couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag.
BTW - While I was at the SEAL training facility in Virginia, they didn't worry about polished boots. They didn't worry about having their utilities pressed. They didn't worry about their appearance. They worried about what their job was and how to be ready for it.
I played D&D, AD&D, Top Secret, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Top Secret SI and Robotech. I also MUDed way too many hours.
I was also a Marine Rifleman. I served with the Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team (FAST) Co. Have achievement medals from the Marines and the Army (Joint Operation). Was a squad leader and a platoon sergeant and a company gunnery sergeant; and I wanted people who could think on their own in my squad/platoon/company.
Also, the Marines doctrine was based on mission accomplishment and not absolute discipline. So your statement of "all military doctrine" kind of goes out the window.
Not automatic (Score:2, Informative)
RTFA. The IDF does not automatically lowers the security clearance of recruits who proclaim they play D&D. These recruits are sent to a psychological evaluation. More than half of these are found to have psychological traits that are not wanted in high security clearance positions.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:2, Informative)
For starters, Jews don't believe in a hell. In Scripture God lays out some foods that are healthy and others that are unhealthy. If we break that law, we are not going to the lakes of burning brimstone; your Christian religionist leaders invented that one.
Perhaps coincidentally, virtually all the unhealthy foods God mentions are all scientifically proven as unhealthy. A vast majority of the dietary laws are against the eating of scavengers, vultures, bottom-feeders; food that has proven to be unhealthy for humans to eat. There are a few (such as pig) that people eat today, but perhaps the modern farm-raised pigs of today are different from the wild pigs of Biblical times.
Chewing the cud: read about it in a science book. It's a way animals, such as cows, digest plants in the most efficient way nature can get them, by regurgitating the food and chewing it, breaking it down so the body can extract more nutrients. It's really an amazing part of nature. And despite biblical man's lack of scientific knowledge, we now know that most animals that chew the cud are indeed healthy for humans to consume because of the science behind chewing the cud.
Actually.. (Score:2, Informative)
Actually you don't have to be jewish to get drafted into the israeli army, you just have to be an israeli citizen.. there are in fact besides jews also arabs, druze, bedouin, moslems, christians and even vietnamese in the israeli army!
Re:Depends on the level (Score:3, Informative)
Don't confuse discipline - respecting the authority of the chain of command and military custom - with lack of initiative. The modern military prizes initiative: complete the objective you're assigned without complaint, but think of the best way to do so based on your training and experience. To quote a marine sergeant writing a summary of action in Fallujah: [blackfive.net]
All Marines must exercise initiative during combat. Squad leaders must design training techniques in order to stress initiative. Marines must be able to look around, assess what his squad or partner is doing, feed off it, and act in order to support them. Initiative based training is paramount.
And also:
Being a good combat leader sometimes means stepping back and allowing the Marines to do their jobs. Platoon commanders must allow squad leaders to lead their squads, squad leaders must allow element leaders to lead their elements, and element leaders must allow their Marines to take initiative.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:3, Informative)
Pork doesn't keep very well in hot Israeli climates. Also, salting meat (to remove blood) helps preserve it.
Furthermore, pigs spread disease. The flu, for example, usually evolves in bird populations, but usually can't be transmitted from birds to humans. It can, however, be passed from birds to pigs, and then a pig with a flu virus can pass it to humans.
So, if there were no pig farming, we probably would not need to bother with flu shots every year.
(For the record: I'm not Jewish, just interested in the history of Hebrew law. It is one of the half-dozen-or-so oldest sets of laws we have on record, after all.)