Too Many Computers Hurt Learning 935
An anonymous reader writes "The Christian Science Monitor is running a story on a recent University of Munich study of school children in 31 countries that found a correlation between frequent computer usage and poor academic performance. Having more than one computer in the home was found to be particularly bad news! For those Slashdotters with children, how do you deal with your kids' computer use?"
Multitasking is harmful for Most kids. (Score:5, Insightful)
Computers facilitate--not replace--learning (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems logical (Score:2, Insightful)
Thank you, but no (Score:2, Insightful)
It's a multi-use system. (Score:3, Insightful)
"Computer use" does not really describe the activity with any amount of precision.
Makes some sense (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's be honest. How many of us sit down to "just check e-mail" and find that nearly an hour has passed without really doing anything productive?
If usage goes up but productive usage doesn't go up, then time is wasted.
Well, yea... (Score:5, Insightful)
Multitasking also doesnt mix well with research, creativity, or anything really worth doing well for that matter.
Unsupported Conclusions (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Might I also add that we need to discourage children from learning to read and write from the contents of chat rooms.
l337 5p34k c4n 0n1y hur7 gr4d3z.
Sounds more like a case of parental apathy (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking Of That (Score:5, Insightful)
Leverage your tools (Score:5, Insightful)
Nature of computer usage changed. (Score:5, Insightful)
XBOX + HALO2 + INTERNET = FAIL (Score:2, Insightful)
It's too bad that computer games can't be more educational.
Re:Computer's fault? (Score:2, Insightful)
My kids only have learning software on the computer and it does help. The entertainment comes from the PS2 and XBox which they can use on a limited basis.
Re:Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Computers are great tools for learning, but they are also great tools for distraction.
Re:Hrmm (Score:2, Insightful)
I agree. (Score:5, Insightful)
Things I used to know by heart I've purged from my mind (mostly unintentionally) over the years. Although, I did purge my computer architecture class - MUXes, flip-flops, etc. on purpose. ugh.
Partly because I don't use that knowledge as much and partly because it's WAY too easy to jump on *.google.com and look something up. Heck, in a lot of cases, just typing a query and pounding the enter key is enough. I can usually find that nugget of information or trivia fact I'm looking for in the short description that shows up on the results screen without ever having to follow any links. Google dumbs me down.
I've turned to reading more books to combat the problem. I try to read a variety of topics that interest me such as physics, math, biology, and economics and even fiction novels too. I find that the variety of information and learning new things helps keep me "fresh" and sharp in spite of google and kcalc.
I think it's way too easy to open up a calculator, spreadsheet, web browser, [insert app here] to do things one should be able to do, or at least know how to do, by hand.
Re:Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Incomplete Study? (Score:5, Insightful)
The flip side would be what they actually get to do on the computer. If the parents limit them to games and programs they set up for the kids, that's almost as bad as spoonfeeding an 8 year old. The technically oriented/geek parents (or, were I one, this is what I would do), make a ghost/dd/carbon copy/backup of your hard drive, and let the kid loose for a few hours to do whatever he wants. If you're a true geek, the kid would have his/her own dedicated computer to play with, to let him find his own way around. Show the kid how to use the mouse, and how to click. Teach them the basics of how to use the computer, and let them learn their own way. That's how I was brought up, and I'm more capable of using/building/working on/maintaining computers than 99.9999% of all the people I know. Plop me in front of a foreign interface I've never seen before and I'll figure out the basics of how to use it within a few minutes (or if in another language, hours).
Computers can be extremely powerful tools for learning, but only if used in proper context. Parents who use the computer as an electronic baby-sitter will find their kid's grades slumping, while a kid who figures out the basics of the bash shell by the age of 5 could probably graduate high school at the age of 10. Give kids the tools to foster deductive reasoning, and they'll blossom into students with an insatiable appetite to learn and figure stuff out.
Correlation != Causation (Score:5, Insightful)
There have been numerous reports released in Australia recently on how literacy and numeracy standards have been slipping in recent years. There was even an article [smh.com.au] yesterday commenting on how illeteracy is now being 'diagnosed' as ADHD, with children being taken to emergency rooms for treatment when what they really need is to be taught how to read.
The computer is simply a tool, it has no moral value, if the children are taught how to use it effectively as an educational aid, and are taught to value learning, the unfettered access to a computer will be beneficial. IF the children are taught to treat education as something to be endured and that computers are toys - then that is how they will treat them.
I've seen problems already... (Score:3, Insightful)
Fortunately I was in marching band, jazz band, electric car club, and some other structured things for me to redirect myself to when my parents forced the issue and wouldn't let me use the family computer for games, but it definitely wasn't easy, and probably would have been even harder if I hadn't had other activities that I liked to turn to. Consequently I'm paying close attention to what happens in what I'm seeing now, because I know from experience what can happen if things get out of hand.
The moral of my own story: Have something else to do besides computers. Read. Play sports. Play a musical instrument. Work with your hands on something, like cars, or woodworking, or jewelery. Find a passion to compete with the one operating at 1024x768. It's definitely a lot more healthy that way.
Re:Thank you, but no (Score:5, Insightful)
Still got a full scholarship for college too.
Course, I never learned to do homework, so I flunked out my first year. So I would suggest doing homework just for the practice of self discipline to others, not necessarily for its educational value. Or if you aren't going to do homework, spend X amount of your free time learning SOMETHING instead of fucking off.
Re:Hrmm (Score:3, Insightful)
And which country's grammar and spelling would be determined the correct one? Take english for example. We have American english, Brittish english, Australian english and slashdot english.
A joke perhaps: And American, English, and Australian connect to a spelling correcting chat room and nothing is said.
Should I have mentioned that it was a lame joke.
Re:Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, having said that, I did have a computer and phone in my room before I turned 18. However, the phone was there because I helped with the family business on a daily basis (I made personal calls maybe once a month off of it). And, I was into computers before I was 10
In the end, all kids need is good parenting; not regulation by the government, not censorship by special interest groups, just good parenting.
Re:We have a few rules, and it works (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Hrmm (Score:2, Insightful)
Variations in language are a hallmark of a rich culture. Your method of grammar policing would lead to a monochromatic society with no linguistc colour.
(Hmmm... note the EN_AU spelling of coloUr, you banned that).
Re:We have a few rules, and it works (Score:4, Insightful)
The computer is used for schoolwork and research.
It sounds like you are discouraging creative computer use? Why?
What if your kid could be a great computer programmer? What if they wanted to create a video game?
The right computer games encourage thinking.
Correlation is not causation (Score:5, Insightful)
Some possible causalities here:
I could keep coming up with reasons all day. The article seems to assume #1 is the explanation, but the study provides no evidence to suggest that #1 is any more plausible than the others.
Re:Hrmm (Score:0, Insightful)
"Please press 1 for English"?? F*ck off.
She's bilingual and can feed the kittens! but... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Or alternatively, the language would evolve in the direction set by certain Large Corporations. Enter doublespeak plus good.
The language defines what we can think about, and how we think about those things. It is not a good thing to attempt to restrict it, since by doing so we are restricting people's thoughts.
Having said that, I'll continue to make fun of anyone using 1337 5p33k.
Procrastionators... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know why but for some reason I just can't work any other way but under the gun; without urgency I tend to just lose intrest. With literature on subjects I really want to learn about just a click away it becomes even more difficult.
Re:Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Like anything else, it's all about how it's used... and perhaps even who is using it. That said, it's important to note that I am not a member of the masses... so how do the masses respond? How do they perceive computers, how they work and what they're for?
Re:Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
For example:Which one looks easier to do? There is a speed up of over six times by using the abbreviation.
And then there are other aspects, like when I'm trying to talk about technical stuff, or fix problems for someone.
There is a reason why we use things like this. Because they work. Language isn't meant to be a set of laws, it's supposed to be a way of conveying information. We need to start treating it that way.
Re:Leverage your tools (Score:4, Insightful)
Computers are just objects they don't make someone fail courses, so don't blame it. You want someone to blame, blame the compete lack of parenting shown all too often, or blame the students lack of self control, this is just more people looking to lay blame elsewhere and say, "look its not my fault."
Re:We have a few rules, and it works (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Develop solid math skills
2. Develop solid physics skills
3. Profit!!!
KFG
Re:Nature of computer usage changed. (Score:5, Insightful)
As useful as the internet is for homework and research, parents should really limit internet usage or atleast allocate time for their kids away from the computer (or the TV) to set aside to do schoolwork. I always did my best work in high school when my cable modem was acting screwy or I was forced off the computer.
Re:Hrmm (Score:2, Insightful)
If you've started referring to your computers as "the wife and kids", then you really should lay off the /. for a while.
Re:Hrmm (Score:2, Insightful)
In fact, most school teachers aren't making a conscious effort to fully utilise computers for education in a proper manner. All kids get to dabble in are fanciful 'educational' programs, which IMO are just 99% spoonfeeding. A book will do many times better.
Of course, we can't deny that interactivity of these educational programs can spice things up and raise interest. However it gives no credit to the potential of the computer/Internet! Once the kids reach home, they are back to IRC, IM, shoot-em alls. How many kids want to listen to a talking periodic table or mindlessly key in answers to 1+1 at home?
I believe someone mentioned in a post further down: teach them more, teach them to really use the computer. Maybe learning the bash shell can be a bit nasty, but there are certainly limitless other things such googling for information, doing real research, programming, photo/video editing. In this age, these activities are not as outrageous for kids as we think.
I smell an agenda (Score:5, Insightful)
My daughter is 8-years-old. She has been using the computer (mostly for games) for several years. I used to sit with her and play the Jumpstart Toddler series with her when she was 2. Most of what she plays is educational, but I also let her play video games on the computer, including games on the GameCube, her GameBoy and our old N64.
So, the verdict? She's consistently ahead in school, reading and math skills are 1-2 grades ahead. She has no weak areas, no areas of concern and no behavior issues; she has a creative mind and is a whiz at problem solving and her verbal skills are remarkable at times. I couldn't ask for better. Her teachers are always happy to have conferences with my wife and me, and they have always spent the half-hour praising her and quizzing us on what we're doing at home.
I think it has less to do with the amount of time a child spends on the computer and more to do with what they're doing on it specifically. My daughter does educational stuff along with the occasional video games with no graphic violence. I also monitor what she does and help her get the most out of it. I just recently showed her the basics of how to create web pages and she's been coding her own pages by hand. No report anywhere will convince me that those kinds of activities are hurting her learning abilities.
It's just like TV. You can do it right or wrong. I don't think you can blame the computer itself.
Fatal Overreach (Score:4, Insightful)
But your generalization to "Language isn't meant to be a set of laws" is not supported by your earlier arguments.
The reason that language IS represented by a set of laws as if it weren't then there'd be no way to teach it in geographically disparate locations where folks may not be in contact with native speakers of that language. How can I learn Samoan if I live in SmallTown, KS? I need to refer to the laws of that language. No laws --> loss of structure --> lack of ability to communicate clearly and effectively. The laws are not there to be punitive; they are there to make the system work.
It's not about what you use but how you use it... (Score:3, Insightful)
Computers are a very powerful tool in such a way that they can be used for almost whatever you might desire. Is this not a good thing?
If one desired distraction and could not find a computer, I'm sure said one would find a gaming console or a limping dog or a spot on the wall.
Computers are a tool to allow people to explore whatever it is they want to explore. Can't blame computers for allowing peoples' bad habits to show through.
Before computers, TV prevented me from doing my homework. Before TV, it was drawing and blankly staring out the window. Before windows, it was the faint light breaking through the ovum.
I know what I'm doing when I want to do it. I just don't like homework. >.
Now that I have slashdot... things are different.
Or not.
Back to homework now.
- shazow
Re:We have a few rules, and it works (Score:4, Insightful)
You heard me right. Book learning is much more useful. Math and science are useful for doing technical stuff like optimizing the display and creating realistic physics. Other non-computer fields are useful, too. Sociology, geography, statistics, etc. The list goes on.
Spending all your time playing computer games means you are only familiar with WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE.
Re:Children don't need computers (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Hrmm (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the lamest idea I've heard in a while. Computers are supposed to make things easier. Instead of failing
OMW 2 store, then BRB
the computer should expand it to be
I'm on my way to the store, then I'll be right back.
People don't (generally) type shortcuts because they don't know any better - they do it because it is faster and/or they're lazy (notice 3 contractions in that statement). Or they do it because they've learned it from chat rooms. If IRC servers (etc) expanded all these shortcuts, folks would learn correct forms by reading them - which is where they're learning the incorrect forms now.
In short: positive reinforcement is better than negative.
Re:Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:We have a few rules, and it works (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes but... (Score:3, Insightful)
If you mean adding in new words (e.g. "blog"), then of course that's already built in and happens.
If you mean changing the way that basic grammar rules work, I'd think that'd be a mistake.
If you've read any Shakespeare (which I'm sure you have), you'd see that the English language has adapted since then (mostly in common word choice -- we see fewer of these: doth, 'tis, o'er, hath, etc.).
But that leads us to one of the reasons that it's important that we don't change the structure too much: all of the English written works developed for the past 800 years or so are more or less accessible to those who know proper English. If we changed dramatically the structure, either newbies would have to learn BOTH structures OR those works would be less accessible to them than they are to people trained in standard English.
It's no different than one router deciding that it wanted to do TCP a little bit differently; he can't do that. Not really anyway. Not if he's connected to all X other routers who understand the standard implementation of BGP, TCP, IP,
Age (Score:5, Insightful)
More than likely she might rebel against your admittedly stern authority as she grows older. Also as she grows older and is exposed to more things she will realize that the lifestyle that she has been exposed to is radical different than others. At the very least she might begin to question why you chose to raise her in that fashion or more likely use it as a further excuse to rebel.
I'm going to stop here with my little dime store analysis of what I see you doing but I hope you take some time to realize that your raising a human being, not something for you to try and pour into what you see as the perfect mold.
The funniest part (Score:3, Insightful)
Computers Okay if They are Delayed (Score:3, Insightful)
As a freshman computer science major in a required writing class, I wrote an essay suggesting that premature introduction of computer technology could lead to severe developmental progress. One of my primary arguments was that the development of fine motor skills and handwriting was stumped when children are allowed to type and use the mouse rather than write, paint, etc.
Further, (and granted, this was prior to the widespread advent of the WWW) the 'curiosity driven' learning experience is interrupted by the immediacy of technology provided information. Case in point, Online Encyclopedia vs. Book Encyclopedia. With one, I type in my topic and immediately receive a specific article. With the other, I have to learn how to look the topic up, and in that process am inevitably exposed to other topics which may catch my attention and allow me to learn a bit more.
My suggestion at that time, and one I would probably stand by today, is that computer technology in the classroom should be delayed until the Junior High (7th or 8th grade) level. In America at least, we see quite an opposite trend, where children are exposed to technology at younger and younger ages.
Re:Hrmm (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I smell an agenda (Score:5, Insightful)
The Minister's Daughter (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Hrmm (Score:2, Insightful)
My son has been using computers for ten years yet has no idea how to troubleshoot the slightest problem or how to design an efficient search. Kids learn to click on pretty pictures and cut and paste their home work together. The computer enables a sort of mental laziness.
One can use a computer for hours a day and not learn anything about computers or the subjects one is supposedly working on.
The reason multiple computers is a correlated to poor performance may be that it is an indication of unsupervised computer use. If there is only one computer it is probably in a public room not a bedroom.
Another thought, the internet encourages academic sloppiness. My son did a paper on Curt Cobain and when I reviewed it the writing style was all wrong (it was boring.) So I checked his history to see his sources and I found three sites with an identical biography. None of these site gave a citation for the bio and my son had just cut it up for his paper. I sat his butt back down at the computer and emailed the URL's to his teacher.
In Summary: GUI's make you lazy. Supervise the kids and use citations!!!
Re:Leverage your tools (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. Whis is why I friggin HATE technical interviews. I have 7 years of experience coding Java, and some guy on the other side of the desk asks me how many methods the serializable interface has. That was an actual question. Maybe, just maybe, I've spent MORE time learning concepts and how to build effective applications that users actually need, and LESS time memorizing javadoc that is only a click away from any PC in the country. And you wonder why big IT departments are disfunctional. Because they hire 80K walking javadoc repositories to develop apps.
Re:Age (Score:3, Insightful)
In most other ways, we're very liberal parents who want her to explore things that interest her. It's very likely that once broadcast goes HD, we won't upgrade - we'll get a projector, and then the only thing she can watch will be stuff she rents or borrows from school, the library, or friends. And it'll look GREAT.
But computer games are not something "we do", and frankly, she's shown very little interest in them. She'd truly rather use her imagination creating little worlds of her own, (today it was her orange froggy was going to marry Barbie, but the giant Clifford Dog came and mesed up the wedding, so the unicorns came and took them to the secret castle (aka her bedspread) so they could meet the Wonderful WItch played by another Barbie.
Frankly, I think that's a much better use of her time than twiddling dials in someone else's imagined world, and we encourge her imagination and critical thinking skills.
RS
Re:We have a few rules, and it works (Score:3, Insightful)
As for the chores, those sound typical for any child of that age. But forget the fresh basil, get the fresh catnip instead. Use it as mint in your cooking and then rub the extra on whatever you want the cats to go crazy over. I find that getting good half sharp paprika (not that tasteless garbage you find in most grocers) is far more useful to me than basil.
But why would you want a child to use that bastardized obsolete handwriting system called cursive? I haven't used it for more than my signature (which is rapidly becoming less of a cursive over the past two years) since fourth grade. It is very difficult to read by a human, never mind a computer, and is really not enough faster than print to justify the cost in reading it. If I want to prepare something quickly, I type it.
Re:Hrmm (Score:4, Insightful)
Errors have been found in your post. Your post will not be approved until they're corrected:
would be useful for is people further from this sanskrit we're calling: awkward
...distinctions," I'm pointing out some facts which aren't likely to change any time soon whether we like them or not.: dangling participle detected
Re:Hrmm (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Hrmm (Score:4, Insightful)
A couple of years ago one of my cousins had experienced some hard times so she asked if her son could live with me till she gets back on her feet again. He was failing the 4th grade when he arrived, he is now an Honor student too.
I have 6 computers in this house. Each has their own machine. Learning doesn't come from any of these computers, infact they are a distraction. But they are also a reward for working hard.
I don't think computers helped my kids education, but I don't think it hurts either.
I volunteer to help them with homework everyday, if I felt like it or not. I encourage them to get work out of the way so they can enjoy their free time on their computers without worry or stress. I also manage their internet access, when the grades fail so does their net connection.
Causation and Correlation. (Score:2, Insightful)
Wrong point of view. (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, you could blame the computers, but realistically I think a lot has to be said about the deterioration of the teaching system. I would know, I work in schools and see daily how bad they've gotten. Kids have no respect... yes they didn't have respect when I was in school (and hey, I'm 23), but now they're much more open about doing everything short of (and sometimes beyond) telling their profs to f*** off.
br As for the profs, well, it's rather discouraging trying to teach kids that don't want to learn, somewhat like watching the coding project you babied for the last year get tanked by management in the final stages.
But as to the kids that do want to learn, and make use of computers as a tool... they're going to do more than the previous generation did with a set of fancy calculators. Realistic simulations, architectural tools... computers expand in other areas.
Of course, I suppose I could look at myself. Grandiose projects planned, but after a day of work I'm often sacked and just end up playing games to relax. If I had to sit through some of the classes that students do today, I'd probably do the same...
Poor athletic performance (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
This is slashdot, that's pretty much a given.
What's really sad is that Slashdot, a website supposedly for scientifically-minded people can't even understand the basic tenet of science that is "correlation does not equal causation".
All the article said was that they found a correlation between multiple computers in the home and poor academic performance, but that doesn't imply, as the headline states "Too many computers Hurt Learning." It could just mean that spoiled kids with access to computers don't do well in school because they've had everything handed to them. But of course, that wouldn't be as sensational, now would it?
-Grym
Re:Teacher to asshole, teacher to asshole... (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, a year out of college, I'm in med school. Here I'm surrounded by people who like what they're studying (I do as well), and studying a LOT is the norm. And, at this stage, it actually matters whether I know my stuff, so I put my nose to the grindstone and join in, no matter how much it hurts.
I was quite the academic phenom at a young age (not just in math, I was a SET kid [jhu.edu]), and this helped me in some ways: I never felt the need to compete in a vicious manner or belittle others' achievements since I'd already had the institutional pat on the back from a young age, so to speak. However, it also made me complacent, and this complacency almost was my failure.
The moral of my rambling, self-congratulatory story? Not everyone who finds the pace and scope of traditional school easy ends up falling by the wayside. We all have to learn how to apply ourselves, and to grasp that being smart is simply not enough on its own. Growing up as a precocious youth one often feels that being gifted means that less effort should be expected of oneself, and that academics is a game in which the goal is to find the least amount of work that will appease the taskmasters. I encourage those who might feel this way to go to a competitive school, and learn from the positive example of their peers that the application of one's talents is as important as their mere existence.
Re:We have a few rules, and it works (Score:2, Insightful)
I like that approach, but 7 years old is probably a little to early for that.
Anyway, what's the fuss about the "no games" policy? She is 7! There is so much other stuff to do at that age, computer games are such a minor thing. (Of course you let her play Nethack, right?)
Correlation is not causation. (Score:3, Insightful)
The actual study says they've found a correlation, the braindead /. editor writes (or accepts, whatever) a title which would indicate causation.
Say it again boys and girls, real loud, maybe even the editors will hear it; Correlation is not causation.
Re:Hrmm (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:TV in the classroom (Score:2, Insightful)
The TVs really let us down on that one.
The fact that TV is not always educational doesn't mean that it can't enhance education, and the same is true for computers.
Academic Work is the Problem not Computers (Score:2, Insightful)
Looking at this survey, the academic training done in the schools that the examined students attended is largely irrelevant to today's learners. The most relevant type of leaning revolves around learning to use the tools available to locate the information you need in the shortest period of time. In the past this naturally involved committing to memory large amounts of information since the human memory was the most reliable and quickest storage medium available.
In the age of the Internet, the amount of information you can recall in a few seconds is not as important as how quickly you can recover information online. Memorizing the paths to information is more important than knowing the information itself. So the human memory is best used as an index not a repository.
Until academia catches up with this idea, those who are most literate in the use of technology may display lower test scores when isolated from their online reference library. But when allowed to use the tools they have mastered to accomplish the same tasks, they will have higher test scores than those who rely only on memory for recall.
This does not excuse us in the specific disciplines of math and the scientific method. Every student must learn math the hard way or be forever isolated from the most advanced fields of human knowledge. And most important of all is learning to reason properly.
Every student must be able to form hypotheses, test, and discard unproven or unprovable ideas in favor of those that can be demonstrated to not be false.