E17 Available From CVS 308
Lisandro writes "As stated by Rasterman on his site, Enlightenment 0.17's window manager is now available on CVS, which means you can build e17 completely from it, as it is, and give it a try. Of course, it's still work in progress, and lacking in several areas, but it is usable, and looks as gorgeous as ever. Also, in related news, the XFCE team, one of the best 'light' desktop environments for *NIX, has released the first release candidate for XFCE 4.2, with a lot of long due improvements." About e17, Rasterman's note says "It's limited in its support for ICCCM, no NETWM support and it has no iconification, virtual desktops, shading, keybindings or button bindings, but it does WORK (just). it's also fast and beautiful."
fluxbox (Score:1, Interesting)
Too Late? (Score:5, Interesting)
Nowadays, I want a lot less visually from a WM--I want it to be as unobtrusive and thin as possible. I put up with Gnome/KDE (depends on what machine I'm working on) because of the nicer and nicer applications being built around them, but I dislike all of that extra overhead--"this app depends on *WHAT*?" This is, of course, my personal taste, and nothing more.
Enlightenment, how I used to long for you. I yearned for another release. I ached to spend long nights interfacing with you... but that was long ago. I've grown up, you've chnaged. We've moved apart. Can it ever really work again between us? Can't we just let the past stay the past, beautiful in what it is, but nothing more?
Call me.
progress (Score:5, Interesting)
actually, thats kind of wrong. (Score:5, Interesting)
And you must understand, what rasterman, etc are trying to do is a hell of a lot more advanced then anything tried before. They for instance are developing their own composite system instead of using Xorg's, and they do a lot of work optimisation wise.
They have also been developing it to be completely dynamic. In retrospect for instance, the windows start bar, the best you can do is theme it, but it will always be the same. Rasterman and the rest of the enlightenment team are making it so that the way things work on the bar are completely dynamic for instance. An example would be when you put your mouse away from the applications button, it moves to the right (bad example, but you get the point).
So, I hate to say it, but I dont think you realise the real benefits. The default theme cannot show off the full power of enlightenment 17, and you can only see it after using it for a while. And btw, I'm sure they'll add virtual desktops, its still an early alpha. virtual desktops dont take many lines of code...
As a programmer, I actually very eagerly await e17, because the foundation libraries and concepts seem pretty amazing, and believe me, all the other window libraries like GTK and QT are mostly static.. In fact, the library seems so cool that I might be changing the application I'm programming to EFL from gtk
Re:Took a while (Score:5, Interesting)
I personally think KDE and gnome (or GTk/QT) are in need of a rewrite, and many programmers have agreed with me.. GTK# might save GTK, but the C code for it can be hell. I think its extremely promising considering E17 is still barely finished yet.
Take my advice and give at least engage and entrance a try from CVS.. You'll see its very newsworthy
Re:fluxbox (Score:3, Interesting)
I guess I'll come off as a troll, but I'm honestly wondering if you could explain a little more. I use fluxbox, and I don't feel anything is lacking. I right-click, and I get a menu that lets me run the apps I want to run, or I can open an aterm and start other gui apps from the command line. Is it the file browser that you really feel is missing from fluxbox? Personally I'm happier with ls, rm, etc. from the command line. Some of the stuff you listed I either don't consider part of the desktop (like a development environment), or I'm not sure what you're describing ("backdrop system, a session manager, a plugin capable settings manager").
Maybe part of it is that I've had right-hand tendonitis problems from the mouse, so I actually prefer to type as much as possible and avoid the mouse.
E16 vs. E17 (Score:5, Interesting)
But I remember building and running E17 from CVS something like two years ago; and I'm pretty sure it was further along then than it is now. I know Raster decided to rewrite everything from the ground up, but c'mon. This is in no way news. Should they ever actually FINISH - then let us know.
Re:fluxbox (Score:4, Interesting)
Now i'm settled with XFCE 4, and i have to say is the first time i've ever been really comfortable with an *NIX desktop enviroment. Think of it as being somewhere between a WM and a DE: it borrows the best from both worlds. XFCE looks much like GNOME, being GTK based, but it just *flies*. In fact, i'm pretty sure that if your system runs Fluxbox well it will also run XFCE well.
The latest XFCE release is major in the sense they've started to polish the weak spots in the design - there's now a nice session manager, better configuration options, more eye candy
Screenshots and Videos (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Too Late? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:fluxbox (Score:3, Interesting)
In the end, asking if XFCE is better than Fluxbox, or if KDE is better than Gnome, is a bit like asking if blue is better than yellow. It all depends on what you like to look at, because if you want, for example, to put a clock on your desktop, you're gonna hafta run a clock program.
No need for all this new junk - vtwm forever! (Score:1, Interesting)
I tried KDE and Gnome recently. All junk. Sorry! Total waste of time and space. Better luck next time.
haven't used anything but E for years now (Score:3, Interesting)
Mine (16.6 right now) is set up 3x3x3 - 9 virtual desktops, times 3 multiple desktops (each with a different background). It's a 3x3x3 cube.
alt-shift combined with right,left,up,down arrows moves you around the virtual desktops (same background, the virtual desktops also wrap around)
ctrl-alt combined with left and right arrows takes you from one multiple desktop to another (different backgrounds, no wrapping)
you kind of have to remember where you are, and right click on the top bar helps you if you get lost.
cd
you can have any menus you want, name them what you want - then link from one to another - the syntax is very easy to pick up - not unlike building a website or something.
I made the first item in the main menu my personalized xterm, so anytime I click the double-click key on my fancy trackball anywhere on the background and an xterm pops up. Then I can dict, or calc, or anything I need. (First click opens up the main menu, second click clicks the first item)
I don't know what more you could want - the only problems I tend to run into is if something is "built for" Gnome or KDE, for instance just the other day - the Straw RSS aggregator - you need to "set" a browser preference to follow the RSS links (like to this story, for instance) - but you need to set the browser preference in Gnome, not Straw. Duh. I found the "sage" RSS aggregator plugin for Firefox and I'm happy as a clam. Place your live RSS links into the "Sage Feeds" bookmark folder in Firefox. Not bad at all.
Enlightenment has done everything, and more - that I have needed. I also like being able to have very nice pictures in the background - I love really nice nature photography, or other relaxing photography when working on a stressful project - it helps.
I start up wmclockmon every time I turn on or reboot the PC, which is not that often - put it in the lower corner, make it sticky and borderless, turn on its "light" and there's my date and time.
So far, anyway, I haven't needed anything badly enough that any other window manager or desktop environment offers to convince me to switch away from the things that I really like about E. Multiple desktops allow you to do several different things at once, keep things seperate, and spread those seperate things out if they too complicated using the virtual desktops within each multiple desktop. And talk about overkill, You can have up to 8x8 virtual desktops - 64 virtual desktops for each multiple desktop - so that's 64 TIMES 32 for each of the possible multiple desktops. That's 2,048 desktops. I use 3x3x3, or 27 and I haven't yet filled them up completely even when working on several complicated projects at the same time.
I love E. That being said, I probably wouldn't use E17 for a while as anything regular - I am apprehensive, because I like E16 so much. Maybe I am alone, maybe it's the way I work, maybe it's the trackball/ergonomic keyboard/setup I have, but E is just -- I don't know - I haven't found anything better, and I have tried lots of things - blackbox, fluxbox, XFCE, Gnome, KDE, sawfish, FVWM, CDE -- nothing - nothing has even come close, in my opinion.
Re:fluxbox (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:XFCE (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:fluxbox (Score:3, Interesting)
I couldn't agree more. XFCE feels like what Gnome used to be in the 1.4 days, fast and light and "just works." The other really nice trait about the XFCE 4 rewrite is that it's a DE built on the unix philosophy of simple, small components. For example, I have no need for a taskbar, and one just comments out that particular module in the startup script. There's still a few areas that could stand a bit of polish, but I've switched from gnome to XFCE 4 (and now 4.2) and am very pleased with the system overall.
It's also worth highlighting that there is a graphical installer available for XFCE 4.2, which made installing it beyond simple.
Re:like the finder? (Score:5, Interesting)
If all open source stuff was developed this way, Windows/MacOS would have died a long time ago.
I also admire the guy for not releasing a final release at all 'til all the major bugs are polished out. Calling it 0.17 is gutsy as well. Most people would call something like this a whole version number bump.
Pity that more people aren't working on this project and in this fashion.
Look at Mozilla. Remember the old Milestone builds? Talk about unnecessary bloat/misguidance. While firefox is a lean machine compared to its older cousin, it's still got MILLIONS of lines of gratuitious code in it for unnecessary 'features'. As much as XUL sounds like a good idea, imagine how much faster the browser would be if it either used native widgets or XUL was stripped clean of unnecessary features which are now permanent.
Re:x.org, gnome, enlightenment (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm pretty sure the answer to that question is "e". If i recall correctly, there was an irc discussion posted on xcomputerman's site that showed a few stats...EFL murdered xorg. I wish i could get back at the site to doublecheck the results, but it's been slashdotted.
Simple. It dares to be different (Score:5, Interesting)
Linux is not the linux of old. You got a lot of people who grew up with windows only for whom the whole idea of configuration files is alien. Now that isn't much of a problem. Some distros have come a long way into making a linux install extremely easy. But any new desktop user soon wants to chance the look and goes searching on the internet for pretty desktops. E has some very very pretty ones. Then they try it and hit the learning curve. It ain't a wall. It is a ceiling. Breaking through it is hard if you come from a windows gui for everything background. The reward is full control but the price is RTFM.
Add to it that most E users don't want or need things like a start button. Its far more extreme use of virtual desktops. Themes wich look cool in screenshot but perhaps grey on black text in real life is hard to read.
This then soon scares people off who are scared and humiliated that they could not use it. This is the "sucks" era. If you can't use something it must suck, it is never your fault.
So now you got two camps. Those that managed to break through the learning curve and those who didn't (of course you also got a camp who could care less either way but they are boring) and the perfect setup for a holy war.
On the one hand you got those who miss their GUI theme configurations and start button on the bottom left corner. On the other hand you got people who enjoy a window manager that just draws the bloody windows as they want it without turning into the bloat that is KDE or the "you can't do this because it would be confusing" that is Gnome.
Welcome to Linux where people got choice. The price for freedom might be eternal vigilance but the price for choice is eternal holy wars. Choice is all very well but unless you choose what I choose you are the sucks.
The difference about E17 is not just the desktop layout, it is how things are drawn. ALL windows managers use the similar model at the moment wether it is MS windows or Apple or any of the linux ones. If Rasterman realizes his vision then E17 could be one of the most important steps forward in desktops (as he has already used it on his Zaurus. Yeah that is right. E17 on a pda. Try that MS.) Remember that most enlightenment haters are probably using it already. The libraries developed for E have found widespread use. Just check for something like imlib2 on your average linux desktop.
Re:Work in progress (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:actually, thats kind of wrong. (Score:3, Interesting)
Meanwhile, EFL has completely dynamic elements, so any QT or GTK theme would be missing a lot of critical elements, and wouldn't be dynamic at all. Thats the beauty of EFL, its completely dynamic. At the very least, I couldn't foresee any way of porting EFL themes to GTK or QT anyway, so either way, it would be a one way conversion.
Either way, QT and GTK need a rewrite anyway to be more dynamic (if you want proof, try learning GTK and you'll see exactly what I mean. GTK is ok for standard applications aimed at businesses and GIMP, etc.. but when it gets around to designing something dynamic which can attract any crowd, and provide a visually nice desktop to impress people, GTK can be a pain.
GTK has its uses, and EFL does too.. I severely doubt that EFL is best for everything yet (obviously for starters, GTK is more stable so better for businesses).