ESR Responds to Sun's Claims of Being a Better Bazaar 310
UnixSphere writes "Sun has been quoted to have said, 'Sun's Java is developed more in the mode of the bazaar than Linux is,' which has prompted OSI President Eric Raymond to correct Sun's view of what open source really is."
Well there's a shocker (Score:2, Informative)
"Why is this?" you might ask. It's governed by the simple fact that ESR has nothing better to spend his prodigious amounts of free time on than the literary equivalent of listening to himself speak. I really wish Slashdot wouldn't encourage this guy by posting a story about him, because he really doesn't matter.
Re:ESR has no credibility (Score:2, Informative)
Sun will not truly open source solaris (Score:0, Informative)
I dont see why everyone blindly trusts Sun. This is purely a publicity stunt. I repeat and let me make this clear
Solaris will be "open sourced" so that people can browse the code (maybe having clicked through or signed an agreement essentially barring the signer from helping to make any competing operating system. Ever.
There will be serious problems with Sun's license.
Read my lips:
SUN WILL NOT MAKE SOLARIS AVAILABLE UNDER AN OPENSOURCE.ORG APPROVED LICENSE.
Sun's software was certainly bazaar originated (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Free Forking? (Score:5, Informative)
When Microsoft implemented J++, they touted it as Java, but it lacked many features that became standard in Java, like Swing. Including their own VM with Windows made users think they had Java, when they didn't, such that Swing applets couldn't be generally deployed for years.
I'm not defending Sun's claim that Java is more open than Linux, just that they had every right and every duty to keep Microsoft from fucking Java up for all of us.
What about GCJ and Kaffe and others? (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah right! Magical open-source developers will come out of nowhere right?
If you want open-source Java, and feel serious about helping out, then you have GCJ [gnu.org] and Kaffe [kaffe.org].
Sun has allowed alternative JVMs for a long time and there are now many other JVMs [java-virtual-machine.net] to choose from.
You have your opportunity you develop Open-source Java, put your time and money where your mouth is, support Kaffe [kaffe.org] today!
Or do you just want to freeload off Sun's investement in their JVM?... Even if they already provide it for free.
Re:Free Forking? (Score:4, Informative)
That's not really the same. Microsoft signed a licensing agreement with Sun to use and develop Java in Windows. One stipulation of the agreement was that their implementation had to comply with Java standard commands and protocols. Microsoft tried "embrace, extend, and extinguish" with Java by introducing more commands in their version than standard Java. That was Sun's main beef and this was all brought out during the antitrust trial.
James Gosling testified that MS had 2 non standard commands and did not meet Sun's compatibility requirements as dictated by agreement. MS lawyers tried to paint Sun as jealous that MS created a faster, better version of Java. Gosling responded that Sun didn't care if the MS version was faster or better only that it was compatible.
Gosling said incompatibility across different platforms was against the "write once, run anywhere" goal that Sun had wanted for Java. Incompatibility across platforms he said was what made C and C++ hard to program across different machines and fractured those languages. He wrote Java in part "from the scars that I acquired in doing C porting."
Re:Java (Score:2, Informative)
You don't need to care that a product is GPL licensed if you're only using it - you can do so without accepting the license.
If that story is true, the people you worked for were either badly-informed, or confused about the difference between copying and distributing, or "religious zealots" with some non-business-related reason to dislike GPL software.
I could understand why a company might not want to develop software using GPL'd code as a starting point, but to prohibit use of a product which places no license-related burdens on its users is just being silly and vindictive.
A better link... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The "right to fork" argument (Score:3, Informative)
With Linux, you have to convince the Linux coders.. thats Linus, and Alan Cox, and dozens of others. Linus has changed his mind on "NO!" answers before - several times, very publicly, after being convinced.
With Sun, you have to convince the Sun committee. The Sun committee has also changed its mind on "NO!" answers before - although they've been 'smaller' issues generally (imho).
Its pretty much equal on that point.
The difference is that with Linux, you can take your idea/patch to the vendors, and get it included there. You cant really do that with Java (Microsoft tried that and got spanked for it).
With Linux, you ALSO have the option of making your own and competiting it against Linux. Look at how useful and effective it was for the Xwindows project - now almost every major Linux distribution uses Xorg instead of X11.
Forking is the critical point - not persuasive power.
Sun plans patent protection for OpenSolaris (Score:4, Informative)
Sun announce major news - Sun plans patent protection for open-source Solaris and then throw in a dig at ESR for good measure. Ignore the main story - a high-quality Open Source operating system about to enter the market, with an already-gained leading market share - this must mean that - all of a sudden - the majority of servers run an Open Source OS.
Another pretty damn impressive contribution from Sun (and will presumably promote them from #2 contributor of Open Source software to the #1 global contributor of Open Source)
So what does slashdot concentrate on? "Ooh, they slagged off ESR - that's our job". It's a bit like schoolkids, who have the attitude of "Don't call my sister a slut ... I can say it, but if you say it you've got a fight on your hands".
The core of the source article [com.com], which is not mentioned in the headline, is that
and The "bazaar" stuff was just a dig at ESR (and don't we all enjoy that?), pointing out that while Linus controls what ends up on kernel.org, the JCP, not Sun, control what ends up in Java. The JCP are elected by Java developers.In practice, if Linux used this model, I'm sure that nothing would change as most people seem happy with Linus controlling things. But there are developers who get frustrated when their stuff doesn't get into the main tree, which means that they have to keep maintaining their diff's for years on end, just because Linus doesn't like the patch.
On the other end of the scale, there are some really poor drivers still in Linux which really do not deserve to be there, but the original author doesn't have to maintain diff's to keep it in the tree.
That is all a really trivial admin issue, especially when compared to the main one that, to quote the headline, "Sun plans patent protection for open-source Solaris".
That's BIG NEWS. The "bazaar" quibble is just Schwartz getting a dig in for the fun of it.