A Car With A Mind Of Its Own 1416
mindriot writes "When Hicham Dequiedt, driving on a highway between Vierzon and Riom in central France in his Renault Vel Satis this Sunday, was overtaking a truck, his car began accelerating to 120 mph on its own, apparently due to a defect in the cruise control system. Stomping on the brakes proved pointless and, having a magnetic card for a car key, he could not cut the ignition. After calling the police from his cell phone who then attempted to clear the streets of any danger to him, in what he described as the most fearful event of his life, he raced down the highway for another hour before finally managing to stop the car. Read about the incident here or, in more detail, in this article by the German 'Spiegel' (translation). The case is still under investigation. Are we putting too much trust in the increasing number of electronic systems that our lives depend upon?"
Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:4, Informative)
If you are traveling at a high rate of speed losing power steering/braking will cause more problems for you. First try neutral and even a lower gear if for some reason neutral isn't engaging. It's going to over-rev the engine but personally I'd prefer to replace a transmission or the entire engine rather than my blood or organs.
I couldn't read the translated article as it just wasn't working so I don't know if this was suggested or not but if it wasn't suggested by the police I just can't understand why not.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Interesting)
Hmm, the computer overriding the human for self-preservation. That could be interesting.....
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Can you explain more clearly what happens? (Score:5, Insightful)
When you downshift from, say, 4th to 3rd in an AOD transmission, the lever may go into the 3rd slot but the system will not actually shift down until it's "safe" to do so. It's the same premise that the system uses to shift up. You can hold the car in 2nd gear and it won't go over, but it also won't shift up to 3rd immediately if you push the lever into third gear. In an AOD, you more or less have to look at your gear lever as a nice suggestion that the car USUALLY follows.
I don't really know how you could safely stop a modern AOD if you lose control of the throttle unless you've removed the rev limiter. The car will not shift down or into neutral if doing so would throw you over the rev limit and you can't gun the engine further to try and blow it either.
As a sidenote, you can get a shift kit that will let you shift up and down in an AOD at your command. If you had something like that and you were going that fast, you MIGHT be able to override the rev limiter simply by throwing the lever back into first gear as hard as you can. Rev limiters aren't perfect and you can rev the engine to explosion if you do something stupid enough.
Re:Can you explain more clearly what happens? (Score:4, Informative)
In all the cars I've ever owned/seen, the hand brake cable is connected to the exact same rear brake pads as the foot brake is connected to. If the pads wear out, the solid metal behind the pads comes in contact with the drum/disk and they overheat. But there's no wire in contact with tire outcome.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:4, Informative)
1) Lock: This locks the steering and lets you remove the key
2) Accessory: Unlocks the steering wheel and provides power to things like the radio, but not the engine
3) On: Provides power to the spark plugs
4) Start: Provides power to the spark plugs and starter motor.
You can safely turn the key from "on" to "accessory" if you need to stop the engine while driving. Normally, turning the key further into the "lock" position requires extra effort, such as pushing a button.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Informative)
Bingo. I bet this is the case...many (most?) modern cars have this...hell even my old Buick Park Ave wouldn't allow a manual downshift if it would redline the engine..it would only go down as far as engine speed allowed and no lower.
And as for cutting ignition and losing power steering and braking, well every car I've ever seen has a vacuum reservoir that will give power assist for a couple stops if the engine stops providing vacuum (stops running). After that, they still work but you do have to push much harder. All cars (in the US at least) have to allow the steering and braking to control the car in the event of an engine stall, albeit with increased effort. While it may make things more difficult, it's still probably your first best chance to come out of the ordeal alive.
Simple cost analysis: (Score:5, Insightful)
Destroying your car is preferrable to maming and/or killing others and yourself (let's not even talk about law suits). You hardly did the wrong thing.
Fail dangerous? (Score:3, Informative)
The throttle sensor gets stuck on max, the gearbox is a sequential automatic with safety features to prevent damage to the engine, they take away the key and lock the card while driving and you get launched down the road at 120mph.
Yay Renault! Sounds like a lot of thought has been put into how to make a single point of failure *really* dangerous.
Amen (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Amen (Score:5, Funny)
You: Hello, police? Oh my god, my cruise control is stuck at full throttle! Help!
Police: Stay calm, sir. Can you shift to neutral?
You: No, and I can't shut it off! Help!
Police: We'll send officers to clear the road, sir. Remain calm, keep on the freeway.
You: Thanks, I'll call back if I need more help. [click]
You: YEEEEEEEHAAAAAWWWWW!!!!!!!! I'm goin' 120 MPH and the cops are clearing the road for me! How sweet is that?!?!?!
Re:Amen (Score:3)
Re:Amen (Score:5, Funny)
You: OMG, it's the freak who tried to blow up the whale!
Re:And he stopped just in time... (Score:5, Informative)
2. It is what you get from integrating non-vital and vital circuits to save costs. Dunno if the Vel Satis uses similar electronics, but the recent Citroen and Peugeot (the other two french makes) run using a single integrated on-board computer that controls everything from wipers to engine. To add insult to injury it is a low end crap running Windows CE. It is quite noticeable - their speed displays are fully digital and it takes them 2+ seconds to update between reading (as of Citroen C2). Enough to lose your license in some of the UK speed camera happy areas. That is besides that it is an el-cheapo passive LCD which cannot be read if you have polaroid sunglasses or if the sun is behind you (Citroen C2 and C3 at least).
3. This case is an example why you should not buy an automatic and a keyless entry until proper cars are available. In fact I would rather have my speedo analogue as well (it takes less time for human brain to read an analogue dial compared to a digital number).
Re:And he stopped just in time... (Score:4, Informative)
The first article [mfes.com] is on point... it says average cars' brakes have 3-5 times more horsepower than their engines.
Here [wardsauto.com] is an article which specifically talks about the Audi problems...
Most car experts and magazines such as Car and Driver supported Audi's position, knowing full well that working brakes can always overpower the engine, even at full throttle. But major media outlets chose to ignore basic facts and instead gave front-page treatment to theories about sunspots causing cars to run wild.
Re:Amen (Score:4, Funny)
Excuse me, but I'd like to differ with that as a wee bit too general an assumption. I'm an old fart and I've had quite a few cars in my 55 years behind the wheel. I've also always been a pusher, as in pushing the envelope of what the vehicle can do. Some of the cars I've found were capable of pulling in spite of the brakes, a 1949 Nash Ambassador being one of them. This thing had 15" tires, but only 9"x2" brake drums up front, and 9"x1.5" inches wide in the rear. When fully tuned up, that 236 cid 6 could actually accelerate the car with about a hundred pounds on the brake pedal, in high gear! Mind you, it could stop from 60mph in about 140 feet when they were cold, which was pretty good brakes in 1949.
But, that 60mph panic stop was all they could do till they had had about an hour to cool before you did it again. At 80 mph, a stuck throttle and applying the brakes, you would get down to about 30 mph and be all done, 125 mph here we come.
I once popped up over a hill at about 80 to find some idiot pulling a disabled car with a chain pulling out of the fairgrounds entrance in front of me. I had about 100 yards to haul it down to about 15 mph or figure out a way make it to grow wings. I did get it pulled in, but every drum on it was cherry red and so out of round I had to replace them all to get back to a smooth brake pedal. And it didn't stop any better with all new drums and the best new Raybestos semi-metalic shoes.
I loved that car, it could haul me across 2 states in the middle of the night at 120+ mph and get 20-21 mpg doing it, but that SOB could not be stopped quickly from more than 65 or so.
That engine, BTW, is the same engine that was used in the Nash-Healy's of yore, fully capable to turning its 4.375" stroke engine at piston speeds that destroyed the rings in a second if one didn't watch the tach. It was built to haul ass, and in good tune did it very well. I had lots of fun picking on flathead fords with dual carbs, a fancy cam and 10.5/1 alu heads on them. But none could beat that Nash, much to some of thems chagrin. The night I finished that engine, breaking every ring in it, the tach said 8100 rpm.
And the guy who had just lost the title to his built '51 Ford to me? I gave it back. I didn't want that 3 legged dog. I went out and bought a 49 Mercury, built it up too, and did it to him again a year later. He was a slow learner I think. But that Merc could stop a hell of a lot better too.
Todays vehicles have so much better brakes than we had back in my 'salad' years its no comparison, so I'm like most commentators here, I have serious doubts about his story about stomping on the brakes not doing any good. I know damned well I can stop my 88 Nissan 4wd pickup and its 3 litre (199k miles on it now) with a stuck throttle, and its not much contest between the 3.6 litre in my mopar van and its brakes at 107k miles. That 3.6L positively honks, but its brakes are even better. How they would fare when the tranny started to downshift might lead to conjecture but by then the switch should be off anyway. 1st gear is twin streaks of Michelin's on the road behind you at anything over about half throttle.
Cheers, Gene
Actually, it won't blow. (Score:5, Informative)
It's very accurate; +/- 20 RPM typically.
Sticking an engine with a stuck throttle into neutral will result in it banging off the limiter and making a lot of noise, but it won't overrev.
You can, however, MECHANICALLY overrev a manual transmission by downshifting into a lower gear while the wheels are turning at a faster speed than is otherwise proper for that gear. The wheels and the engine are mechanically connected, and downshifting to too low a gear will spin the motor up - no rev limiter can protect against this.
In certain BMW M3s, the transmission mounts get a little sloppy, and engine torque reaction under hard acceleration can rotate the transmission enough to move the shift gates. It's possible then to try and go 2->3 or 3->4, and hit 1 or 2 instead. This is invariably fatal to the motor. You will bring your pistons home in a bucket.
Depending on the contstruction of any given automatic transmission, it may or may not allow you to take it out of gear and go into neutral under throttle. If you are silly enough to be driving an automatic, this could be a problem - but anybody who'd buy an auto trans where a manual was availible would steal sheep - so you probably had it coming.
DG
Nice Thought But... (Score:5, Interesting)
Because of this I'm inclined to believe it's an automatic transmission. Shifting it from drive to neutral will disengage it, and again the rev limiter covers the engine while the brakes stop the car. I'd like to see documentation of any automatic transmission that will refuse to disengage at any given engine or car speed, because that auto company would be wiped off the face of the Earth by lawsuits. I doubt such a transmission exists.
All in all, I suspect that the same thing happened here that happens in a lot of cases. I suspect he panicked when he couldn't stop the car and since nobody directly told him to shift it out of gear, he didn't think of it. Also, he managed to stop the car using just the brakes (which is as it should be; the brakes should be strong enough to stop the car under full power, assuming they're in good repair), so I further suspect that if he'd been calmer he could have stood on the brake pedal sooner.
Virg
Re:Actually, it won't blow. (Score:5, Funny)
>> anybody who'd buy an auto trans where a manual was availible would steal sheep
If I drove a manual for my daily commute I'd be registered disabled, permanently limping and in constant pain - due to the wear and tear on my left knee.
By driving an automatic I get to avoid all that (well, except the constant pain).
Of course, your sheep are still not safe..
Re:Actually, it won't blow. (Score:4, Insightful)
Think before you speak, thanks. My girlfriend drives an automatic, it boggles the mind. At least it still has a hand break.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:3, Interesting)
Bullshit (Score:3, Insightful)
Shutting down the car forces it into a 'reboot' of the system. Shifting it into neutral while the engine is at full power is a good way to blow it.
Downshifting the car is fine, but all thats going to do is blow out your clutch or tranny- remember,if the pedal is fully depressed it's probably redlined at 6500 RPM.
So first, in order-
Hit
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:3, Insightful)
1) If you kill the ignition in this situation, you're not going to immediately lose power steering and power braking. The engine is still going to be turning over (at least a little bit, even in an automatic transmission) since it's in gear and the tires are spinning. As long as you have the engine turning, you have power steering & power braking; these systems (for most cars) don't rely on electronics.
2) You
My similar experience (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, power steering and brakes are specifically designed to work if the power component fails.
Losing power steering at a high rate of speed is not a problem - you turn the wheel very little when at speed. Power steering is only important when you're going very slowly and/or stopped.
You can easily lock up the brakes using your own leg power alone. Power brakes are just a vacuum booster, to make it way-easy to lock up the brakes. Without power, you just have to press harder. But it certainly is far from being impossibly difficult. And in any case, the vacuum ramains in the booster for some period of time. Just try it the brakes in your garage with the engine off, and you'll get a feeling for it.
Of course, many cars of the up into the 1970's didn't have power brakes or steering. And do you know what? They were steerable and stopable at all speeds. Basic steering and braking systems have NOT changed at all since then.
The only significant danger is enabling the steering wheel lock while turning off your ignation at speed. Watch out if you turn off your ignition while moving - you don't want to mistakenly LOCK your steering wheel while at speed.
Mod down parent.
I'd just like to add... (Score:5, Interesting)
This car has mechanical power steering and mechanical power brake assist. however, it is incorrect to say that power brakes are just a vacuum booster. Many are, but many are not, especially mid 80s german cars that didn't really draw enough vacuum for a vacuum based brake assist. (Some BMW, Audi, and VW models feature non vacuum assist)
Those vehicles have a hydraulic brake booster which is run as a separate output channel from the power steering pump. The power steering pump cant react fast enough for panic threshhold braking, so such cars have a brake pressure accumulator or "brake bomb" which stores pressurized power steering fluid. This pressurized fluid is what provides brake force assistance. Note that the power steering fluid and brake fluid are separate and do not mix; it's just that the brake power regulator uses stored pressure from the PS system to pressurize the brake system.
I recently replaced the brake pressure accumulator on my BMW.
Now, ancient brake technology dissertation aside - i have _very_ relevant experience regarding loss of steering and braking power.
I was on Brainerd International Raceway in Minnesota with my M5. This racetrack has a 1 mile long front straight, and turn 1 is banked. I was entering turn 1 at about 125mph (its a 4 door sedan, give me some slack) and midway through the turn i felt my steering get a bit "funny". I immediately recognized the loss of power steering. KNowing what i know about the car, i checked the brake pedal and found i had no power braking either.
Turn 2 can also be taken in excess of 100mph in my vehicle, but turn 3 is a 110 deegree turn that can't really be navigated above 50mph in a sedan on street tires. So I had no power steering and no power brakes, and i had to slow down 4000 lbs of vehicle, driver, and passenger from in excess of 100mph to about 40 mph.
This was no problem, honestly. You can do the entire back section of BIR without braking once you get past turn 3 if you're running a cool down lap. I really stood on the mechanical unassisted brakes to get speed down by turn 3, and then i was able to drive the car back into the pits.
The problem? The power steering pump is belt driven, and since the power steering pump also pressurizes the power brake system as described above, when the belt snapped, i lost power steering and power braking. My brake presure accumulator, which normally stores enough pressurized fuild to perform 3-4 full brake applications even in the total loss of engine power and brake assist, was faulty (thats why i replaced it a few weeks later
So, the moral of the story is
1) knowing how your car works is helpful. I got a ride over to NAPA, bought a new belt, and was back on the track for the next session. I remained calm even though i had the most difficult braking maneuver on the track coming up in less than 15 seconds.
2) The key to all driving situations is operator skillset and awareness.
Here's another short story:
Once in my 1980 BMW 528i i was cruising along the highway, with cruise control enabled. This was an aftermarket cruise control system, as it did not come on this specific vehicle from the factory. I opted to take an off ramp (which went up hill, as they often do in the midwest) and when i dipped the clutch the engine started bouncing off the rev limiter. Manually cancelling the cruise control had no effect. This took me quite by surprise so i killed the engine and slowed to a stop on manual brakes.
The cruise control cable had stuck. OPening the hood, wiggling the cable returned the throttle to the closed position.
Note that at BMW Club track events, a specific part of the technical inspection is the condition and function of the throttle return spring. Driving at speed requires nuance in the use of the throttle, a stock throttle can be a real problem.
UPDATE, more info available (Score:5, Interesting)
Key points translated from the article:
* The driver has tried to use the brakes, but he says they quickly heated up and became ineffective.
* The driver has tried to remove the ignition "key" several times, initially without success.
* Out of ideas and quite afraid, he has called the police, and has soon been escorted by police motorcycles.
* The toll booth had been evacuated and left wide open by the police, all vehicles on the highway (around the toll booth) had been stopped and parked on the emergency lane. Even then, entering the booth at 120 mph would have been quite deadly.
* Fortunately, the driver has stopped the car 12 or 20 miles before the toll booth, by finally managing to remove the smart card that is used as an ignition key on these cars.
* Renault says there are three independant ways the cruise control system can be deactivated: using the brakes; pressing the appropriate button on the steering wheel; switching to neutral gear. The first two are electronic controls, the last one is mechanical.
* Renault says the three systems are fully independant, and it is unlikely they all should fail at the same time. Renault says the car will be brought back to its factories as soon as possible, for inspection.
* The driver was only planning to drive home, a few miles trip, but ended up more than one hundred miles from its planned destination.
In my opinion, he could have stopped the car much earlier, but was panicked. To those who say he should have had no problem removing the smart card, try doing that while controlling a car at 120 mph on a non-empty highway (at one point, he had to overtake a truck by driving on the emergency lane!).
As for the failure, there may be three independant systems, but ultimately, there's only one engine, which can go mechanically wrong.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Interesting)
Did you mean with brakes, or by hand? If the latter, I'm going to be really polite to you.
"Using electric brakes with metallic pads means no brake fade, ever, up to the point where you warp your rotors. There's no brake fluid to take on water and boil, not necessarily in that order."
Fade is gaseous buildup from the pads ablating against the disc, which is why you do graduated braking on a non-fancy car, but personally I wouldn't trust a solenoid to do the force multiplying work of a caliper.
As for the brake fluid taking on water...if you have a non-tight hydraulic system you'll be screwed anyway, let alone getting to the point where you have water in it. Compare the relatively low tech and _reliable_ cylinder and caliper system with the voltages/currents required to produce braking forces and you'll probably notice that there's going to some power applied.
"unreliability of automotive hydraulic systems."
Probably _the_ most reliable portion of the average motor car, if maintained and kept in good repair and not driven with utter faith in the ability to tailgate other drivers at 80mph. Most accidents involving brakes are people locking the wheels at speed.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:4, Insightful)
Not to mention, the smallest harley, an 883 Hugger Sportster, is light enough that even without a good technique most people can pick it up. My sister, who has chronic back problems and is about as strong as a six year old, managed to pick up her Sportster no problem. You seem to be of the impression that every Harley is a monstrous oversized beast suited only for giant musclebound bikers. Who's the ignorant one here?
There are large touring bikes out that that are virtually impossible for ANYONE to pick up. Does that mean they shouldn't be ridden? The difference is, you shouldn't be riding a bike like that unless you are experienced enough to PREVENT it from dropping. Little woman or big burly fatass, you should buy a bike within your skill range that is comfortable to ride, weight be damned.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:4, Interesting)
If I turned the key off too far I'd deserve what I got. However my car requires that a I push a little button down to turn the key far enough to lock the steering, probably for that reason. However, it's a Nissan, and their engineers actually understand what they're doing. (Shit, even my distributor can only be installed one way. I wish more engines were like that.)
It's not that I'm high and mighty, it's that I consider driving to be a privilege and a responsibility.
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Funny)
But you need to be *very* careful about this at 120 mph.
all your brakes (Score:5, Funny)
Trouble was beginning.
Driver: What happen?
Car: How are you gentlemen !!
Car: All your brakes belong to us.
Car: You are on the way to destruction.
Driver: What you say !!
Car: You have no chance to slow down make your time.
Car: HA HA HA
Driver: Take off every 'cell phone'
Driver: Move cars off road.
Driver: For great justice.
The Raven Translation (Score:4, Funny)
It was worse than a nightmare: A normal route on the motorway
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
To be stopped suddenly will the car ever faster, is no more
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping
Well one hour long hunted a French driver with speed 200 over the runway, in the Slalom around the other cars
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door
Debt is to have defective electronics, the manufacturer examines the incident
"'T is some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door-
Only this and nothing more."
The Tempomat of its Renault Vel Satis was defective -
A cause for the Horrortrip
Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December;
The pressestelle of the manufacturer Renault confirmed the incident;
which occurred on Sunday
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor
- nevermore - nevermore
2 stanzas tyger tyger (Score:5, Funny)
Brakes, Brakes Burning bright
on the highway, in the night
what awful error made system die
and made the poor driver cry
On what distant tollboth lies
The crappy break that you did buy?
What disaster did you sire?
And with what rod did you make fire?
Maybe I'm an idiot ... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Maybe I'm an idiot ... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Maybe I'm an idiot ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Besides, your warrently doesn't cover "embedding oneself into concrete."
Re:Maybe I'm an idiot ... (Score:5, Funny)
No, Europeans don't believe in neutral. It's either forward or backward, but never neutral!
Don't ask which gears the American's don't believe in...
We need a "If nations were tansmissions..." page. We;ve got automatic, manual, continuously variable, single speed, bicycle derailleur, hydraulic, no transmission...
-Adam
Re:Maybe I'm an idiot ... (Score:3, Funny)
Neutral? (Score:5, Funny)
Dave: Stop the car Hal!
Hal: I'm sorry, I can't do that Dave.
CZB*()#$@
Re:Neutral? (Score:4, Funny)
Wait for the investigation... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:5, Interesting)
Basically, if you've fucked up the code, it reboots the device or skips a line of code after a set amount of time. It's usually a few seconds, but newer chips can have a delay of a few minutes. (The one I'm working on today goes up to 4:28.) If you do anything with a chip that nobody will ever see again, you enable the watchdog timer. It's pretty easy to incorporate and lets your system recover from lockups or hangs.
I agree that something is fishy here. I am curious as to why he didn't jam the car into 1st and yard on the e-brake like his life depended on it. Don't people learn to drive anymore? Further, don't they have runaway lanes in France? We've got them all over the place here - they're designed for big rigs, but a small car would be more than welcome if you had a problem like this. You drive up a steep unpaved hill into barrels of water. You stop.
I'm an Electronics Engineer and I'd never trust a drive-by-wire car. Things go wrong; you have to have some sort of mechanical over-ride for a life-critical system like a car.
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:3, Insightful)
i wouldn't try that at well over 100+. those runaway areas are for trucks with failed brakes, not fast cars at wide open throttle.
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:3, Informative)
That might or might not make it any less rotten, but that helps provide a more viable explanation. The English parent article just dropped that part completely - probably because they don't have a native translator and couldn't figure o
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:4, Informative)
The German language article says he came to a stop about 20km before a toll booth...
On the same theme: Saturn made a interesting assumption about their cars a few years ago. At high speed they reduced gas to the engine to control the speed to a maximum of 105mph. According to this entry in Risks digest [ncl.ac.uk] (source of endless scary stories about computing and automation risks) the author was left going down hill at over 105mph, coasting, with a stalled engine, no power brakes and no power steering.
... not fun at all...
Audi had a problem years ago that was supposedly due to a programming error. At low RPM the computer would increase power but fail to sense it under some circumstances. Net result: your car would suddenly go foot to the floor while you were stopped at a red light.
the audi story (Score:5, Interesting)
The real cause ?
On the type 44 cars (Audi 4000 and 5000) the gas and brake pedal are close together to make performance driving easier.
Dumb shit americans would hit the gas pedal going for the brakes and rear end people at stops.
CBS fabricated the "expose" on the "problem" completely. Lawsuits were filed and eventually resolved with Audi showing no negligence or fault, but they still changed their pedals in later cars anyway.
Wonder what happened... (Score:3, Interesting)
I also seem to remember years and years ago reading (i think it was in readers digest) about a woman who had the same problem with her car - she had to 'drive' it until the car ran out of gas and then stopped on its own. No cruise control there, so problems can occur with or without all the new technology out there.
Re:Wonder what happened... (Score:5, Interesting)
Hello, 911? (Score:5, Funny)
It seems my car *refuses* to stop at red lights. Whenever I approach one turning red, the car mysteriously speeds up through the intersection.
Do be a peach and clear the way for me until I can get this under control
Cannonball Run (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cannonball Run (Score:4, Informative)
If it's true, it's fishy indeed.
They also say that the car seemed to behave normally when a mechanic drove it from his truck to a garage, but if it was some kind of rare sftware malfunction and the computer reset itself, they wouldn't notice anything anyway.
I don't even know if they have logs in these car computers.
It has began (Score:4, Funny)
I don't buy it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry. I just don't believe these stores as anything other than driver's fabrications to cover their own ineptness. It would take a multiple simultaneous failure of unrelated systems to make this happen.
-S
Cheap shot ... (Score:5, Funny)
He was driving a Renault?
People -- there is a reason the least often uttered phrase in the world is Quality French Engineering
No one has said it yet, so I will... (Score:5, Funny)
Talk about your Race Conditions (Score:3, Funny)
But seriously, why one earth didn't they engineer in a kill switch. A nice big red button. Your furnace has one. You mainframe has one. Every robot in a factory has one, as do most dumber bits of equipment.
I should try that... (Score:4, Funny)
This would do wonders for my morning commute
My cruise control stuck once (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:My cruise control stuck once (Score:3, Interesting)
Brake by wire? (Score:3, Insightful)
Unless the car brakes by wire instead of having a master cylinder, there should be no way that it could not stop. An ABS system that malfunctioned would not affect the brakes' capabilities.
Brake fade due to boiling of the fluid could be a problem going from 120 to stop with a wide open throttle, but given the amount of air passing over the brakes I would still think it possible to stop.
Using the e-brake (hand brake)(parking brake) might help, in addition to hte fading main brakes. If the rear brakes are disc brakes, they usually have a smaller drum brake for the e-brake because drums lock up better (so your car doesnt roll down the hill)
Also if this person was really fearing for his safety... life is more dear than property. screw the engine - either shift to neutral and hope it has a damn good rev-limiter, or (worse) downshift and use the engine+rev limiter as a kamikazi-style brake and hope it doesnt go boom!
or reach under the dash and pull fuses randomly.
This happened to me. (Score:4, Interesting)
I had my licence maybe less than a year, and was driving home from the movies at night on the Boston Post Rd in Westchester county, NY (2 lane street, storefronts on either side.)
All of a sudden the gas pedal went down to the floor on it's own, and the car starts to accelerate from about 30, through 50 and going. Hitting the break did not disengage the cruise control, and breaking a floored car doing 50 does - absolutely nothing.
Just as I was about the turn off the key, the pedal comes back up. The whole way home the car did this. I still remember getting home, being asked what was wrong, and saying "Your fucking car tried to kill me." - this was the first time I swore (on purpose) in front of my parrents.
Next day we take it to the shop, and the mechanic's reaction was "Oh yeah, they do that." Evidently the cruise control wires, mounted on the turn signal lever, woudd fray and short out. Part of the design was the Resume button had priority over the break cut-of switch, so when Resume shorted, you were screwed.
I've met three other people who owned this car, and had the same thing happen to them. One guy, as soon as he said he'd had an 83 Cutlas, I asked "Did it ever go Flying Dutchman" on you, and he knew exactly what I met. His started revving itself next to a Cop at a traffic light. He just got out with his hands up, saying "It's not me, it's the car !", as the car sat there revving itself.
reminds me of a burned renault motor (Score:3, Interesting)
Renault (Score:4, Funny)
I bet that guy had one hell of a ride that day tho. I wonder if it did start talking to him.
"Stop the car!"
"I'm sorry, Dave, but I am afraid I can not let that happen."
"Please! For the love of God at least slow down"
"I truely am sorry, Dave, but we must pass that truck in a quick and efficient manner"
"But we passed that truck 20 miles ago!"
"Really Dave, you should just relax and leave the driving to me"
"Thats it! I am shutting this car down! Wheres my magnetic card?"
"I'm sorry Dave, but I can not let you do that."
Driving a Saloon (Score:3, Funny)
Therefore, the driver must have been drunk.
Electric power steering? (Score:5, Informative)
Uhmmmmmmmm ... no.
Unless you have one of the (few) cars with electrical power steering, you certainly will not lose power steering by shutting of the ignition.
So long as the engine is turning, the entirely mechanical power steering pump will continue to rotate and provide pressure to the system.
So long as the engine is generating manifold vacuum, you will have power brake boost. Beyond that, some cars (I know my old Volvo had one) have a diaphragm vacuum pump in addition to manifold vacuum to power the brake booster.
The only danger in killing ignition is in carburated autos, where you will continue to run fuel through the engine without spark. This will destroy any catalytic converter, and has a good chance of causing numerous backfires, and damaging the remainder of the exhaust system.
In the same Volvo wagon with the vacuum pump, it had a major overheating problem, but with its fuel-injected engine, killing ignition was a non-issue. No electricity, no fuel pump, no backfire. After climbing a long grade and getting up to 130, cresting the hill, and killing the ignition would cool it back down in just a few tens of seconds just from pumping all that relatively cold air through the engine. (Of course, shock cooling the engine was probably worse for it than the overheating, but it was a dispos-a-car anyway.)
Re:Electric power steering? (Score:3, Informative)
Stuck throttle - brakes win (Score:5, Insightful)
I just had the accelerator get jammed to the floor on my Mustang when it got held down by the floor mat. Luckily I have a manual transmission and could just put int he clutch and let it the engine get cut off at red line. After trying pushing on the accelerator to get it to bounce back, I unstuck the throttle by pulling the floor mat back. I could have killed the engine with the key and coasted to the shoulder.
This guy might have freed it up by pushing on the gas.
Just like with the "unintended accelleration" stories, I think we're not hearing the whole story. One Audi dealer offered $10,000 to anyone who could make the car take off while he had his foot on the brake. There were no takers. Every car made has better brakes that overpower the engine. The engine will die. The car will stop.
Re:Stuck throttle - brakes win (Score:5, Insightful)
applying hard breaking at high speed will cause gassing at the break pads and cause an excessive amount of fade as they heat up drastically. you can have very little breaking power when you try to engage the brakes at high speed now couple this with the engine fighting you.
with 3 piston large caliper disc brakes with vented and cross drilled rotors? no, there's enough there to counteract the problem (I.E. designed for high speed braking found in racing)
but the really low end brake systems found on cars on the road from BMW and Mercedes let alone the even cheaper junk on Renault have no chance of helping much being applied at 120mph.
The mechanics of this decline and failure in the coefficient of friction are varied. At a certain temperature, certain elements of the pad can melt or smear causing a lubrication effect, this is the classic glazed brake pad. Usually the organic binder resin starts to go first, then even the metallic elements of the friction material can start to melt. At really high temperatures the friction material starts to vaporize and the pad can sort of hydroplane on a boundary layer of vaporized metal and friction material which acts like a lubricant.
so brakes not working in this instance is certianly a possibility.
Most of you are wrong (Score:3, Informative)
About turning off the ignition: The only time it is hard to steer a car without power assist is when the car is sitting still, or moving only very slowly (less than ~3 mph). When the wheels are rolling, it is just as easy to turn (I have removed my power steering to save weight in a car that isn't light by any means, I'm a skinny geek and it isn't a problem). The brakes might possibly lose their power assist (unless they are vacuum assist), but even then, as long as you know that the brakes will be harder to push, it isn't _that_ hard.
Next time you are driving in a large isolated stretch of road, try flooring it and putting on the brakes to try to overcome the engine. The car will come to a complete stop (unless you drive a POS with worn out brakes) even with the engine floored. Also, the emergency brake should have a mostly similar reaction, though you will probably end up dragging the rear tires along the ground, given the propensity for front wheel drive these days.
Third, many cruise control systems (not sure about brand-spankin' new cars) use some sort of vacuum or hydraulic control over the throttle pedal. You can physically override the cruise control by pulling up on the throttle pedal.
Fourth, he should have been able to put the car into neutral, even in an automatic. If the car is modern enough to have cruise control, it will slip into neutral, and the engine RPMs will bounce off the rev limiter, and not grenade the engine either (modern engines can run for weeks at maximum rpm without problems). Pull the car over, pop the hood, disconnect the battery or spark plugs until it stops running.
This guy is either a complete moron, or someone looking to speed down the highway semi-legally.
-Jesse
Re:Most of you are wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Would be bad for the car ;)
Michael Rayner claimed this happened to him (Score:5, Informative)
1999-06-10 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/365915.stm [bbc.co.uk]
1999-06-08 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/364260.stm [bbc.co.uk]
1999-06-07 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/363407.stm [bbc.co.uk]
1998-10-21 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/197964.stm [bbc.co.uk]
Re:Michael Rayner claimed this happened to him (Score:3, Informative)
Explanation sounds is simple... (Score:3, Insightful)
Subaru of America warned of this, had recall (Score:5, Insightful)
As it has already been said many times, the best way is to shift into neutral, sound the horn and use hazards. That's what the recall letter said, as well.
its taught at least in the massachusetts drivers license handbook.
hard to take seriously (Score:3, Insightful)
I am sceptical about this story, however it reminds me of an attitude to software, expressed before by a French engineer, that I disliked :-
An Airbus avionics programmer appeared on a documentary about the Airbus crashes (this was in the UK so was at least seven years ago). He was quoted as saying something like "we take the attitude that, with software, if we test it well enough, then it will work".
This scared me. If you don't know why, I don't want to ride in your plane or live near YOUR nuclear reactor, either.
same thing happened to me! (Score:5, Interesting)
one of the officers didn't believe me when i said the cruise control stuck, and asked test the car himself, since it was the only way to prove to him that i wasn't purposely speeding. when he started the car again, cruise was still stuck, and the car was still stuck in gear, and VROOM 65mph. he spun around and hit a tree, steering column peirced his chest and killed him.
they kinda forgot about arresting me after that. cruise control sucks.
It's user error (as usual) (Score:4, Insightful)
from reuters: neutral gear failed! (Score:4, Informative)
The driver called police to say the cruise control of his Renault Vel Satis had jammed while overtaking a lorry, and that all attempts to brake or put the automatic into neutral had failed, police said Tuesday.
Theres always another option... (Score:5, Funny)
He should have kicked his way through the floor boards to the engine compartment. At which point he would have seen 6 wires, 2 of them being blue, 1 brown, 1 orange and 2 red. He would then have taken the brown, orange and 1 of the reds and spliced them together with a bit of electrical tape. But making sure that he was at all times grounded and that the blue wires did not come in contact with the red ones (Then you would have a whole new set of problems).
Once these wires are connected together, it is all downhill from there. You just have to use a screwdriver to crack open the steering column where you will find 4 more wires (blue, green, yellow/blue, red). Take the connected wires that you finished with earlier, use a 3 foot spare wire to run a bridge to the steering column connecting to the green and blue wire. Once this is all done, just push your horn 3 times in rapid succession and the car will slow right down.
Still makes me laugh that this guy never thought of this. Silly French people.
It's a french car... (Score:5, Funny)
Obligatory quote ... (Score:5, Funny)
1971 Datsun Pickup (Score:4, Interesting)
I was driving my dad's red 1971 Datsun pickup on my way to work. (My brother had rolled it a couple times, but it was a Datsun so of course it still ran as good as ever.) A light ahead changed to yellow, and, being about 20 years old at the time, I did what came naturally: I floored it.
Not that flooring a '71 Datsun 1600cc engine had much of an immediate effect. But I did start accellerating, and I made it through the light whilst it was still yellow. Sweeeet. I let off the gas.
The engine continued to rev up.
"Oh, shit," said I. I was up to about 50MPH (in a 45 zone) and accelerating. The next light was about 400 yards away and red, with cars backed up waiting in every lane going my way. It was familiar territory, so I knew the light wouldn't be green before I got there.
I started to panic. I dropped the clutch, and the engine started to wind up. I had no tachometer, but I knew that sucker was gonna tear itself apart if I let it go on like that. I shoved into high gear (4, no overdrive) and engaged the clutch again. Naturally this was a slightly wrenching experience; the RPMs dropped and the vehicle lurched towards the firey doom ahead. In full panic now, I dropped the clutch again with the same result as before. I re-engaged the clutch.
I thought "I am going to die in about ten seconds. Nine. Eight. Oh yeah, the switch."
I turned the engine off and pulled over. Heh. Silly me.
Turns out that the throttle pedal itself was jammed. There was a little mushroom-shaped backstop attached to the firewall, and when I had floored it I had shoved the perdal sideways a bit, and gotten it stuck behind the backstop.
The moral of the story? Panic is not helpful, even the simplest devices can fail, and every powered device needs a kill switch.
Remember the Audi 5000's "Unintended acceleration" (Score:5, Insightful)
Historically, this usually occurs when something else malfunctions and causes the driver to get distracted. In the case of the Audi 5000, it was an idle control that went awry, and when people shifted into drive with their foot off the brake, the higher idle would make the car lurch forward. They'd slam on the brakes, but accidentally hit the gas, and keep their foot to the floor until they hit something. They found this out by inviting a number of people who experienced this "unintended acceleration" to a parking lot, and had them drive engineers around for two days in front of cameras while the engineers played with the computer to force errors.
On the second day of this testing, a woman putting the car into reverse went tearing across the parking lot at high speed until the engineer reached over and shut the car off. She jumped out of the car, and on camera, shouted something like "It happened! There's your proof! The car is at fault!" -- but the cameras inside the car showed she had been hitting the gas, the cameras outside showed no brake lights, and the engineer riding with her bore witness as well.
As a result of this study, and all of the fallout surrounding the related lawsuits, the US requires an automatic transmission interlock on all cars sold here. You MUST have your foot on the brake to shift into gear.
- - -
Now, to the case at hand. I am fairly certain that this was the course of events:
1. The driver recently purchased the car, or it was a rental, so he was relatively unfamiliar with it (the Audi 5000 incident found that the vast majority of people having these incidents were drivers for whom the Audi was not the primary vehicle, or whom had just purchased it);
2. The driver was cruising along on cruise control, and pressed the gas without manually disengaging the control.
3. When the driver lifted off the gas and pulled back in, the car either didn't slow down as quickly as he thought it should (remember, we're assuming he was unfamiliar with the car), he accidentally hit the button to reset the cruise control to the newer, higher speed, or there was a genuine malfunction that reset the cruise to the newer, higher speed.
4. In the next few seconds that followed, he panicked and went for the brake -- but instead he hit the gas. Having done this, and firmly believing that he was hitting the brake to no effect, he continued to floor the gas. The car continued to accelerate.
5. Between trying to shut the car off, calling the police and swerving around traffic, it never occurred to him to look down and see if he was actually hitting the brake. No shame there; none of us would have, either.
6. As he approached the tollbooth, he made another attempt at the brakes (probably using both feet this time) and brought the car to a stop.
So, is the cruise control at fault? Possibly, but not definitely. Either way, similar past incidents suggest that it was a relatively minor issue until he hit the gas by mistake.
For what it's worth, with no witnesses in the car and no instruments monitoring, we'll never know for sure. Also, unless he realized his mistake just before stopping the car, he may well spend the rest of his life believing it's the car's fault -- and if he DID realize his mistake, there's no way he's ever going to admit it.
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:3, Informative)
my car can _easily_ spin the back tires with the regular brake fully applied, let alone the parking brake(which is completely useless)
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:5, Funny)
They're called 'parking brakes' on the continent, because they tend to lock the back wheels solid if you pull them on in an emergency. Meaning we use them for parking rather than skating around in doughnuts on busy urban streets.
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:5, Informative)
Once, when I was about eight years old, I was in the car with my grandma when the brakes went out. She didn't know what to do. I said "shift down" (automatic transmission) - she did, and we coasted to a stop shortly thereafter.
It's amazing to me that this guy had the presence of mind to call on a phone, but for an HOUR didn't think of downshifting.
Probably he, like most other drivers, is only concerned about going FASTER, not slower.
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:5, Interesting)
- The e-brake / parking brake is usually installed on the rear wheels which, due to the pesky laws of physics, only account for about 10 - 20 percent of braking power, depending on the car's configuration.
- At high speeds, it is very possible to over power the brakes. Mind you, auto manufacturers are very careful about sizing the brakes at a much larger power capacity than the engine. This is a no-brainer. However, it is possible to overwhelm the brake materials at very high speeds, causing the braking power to deteriorate. For example, if you ride the brake at 120mph, you'll lose braking capacity. If you then try to stop the car completely, the engine might have more power than what exists in the braking system under its deteriorated state. I had a caliper stick once and it heated everything up so much that I lost braking power on that particular wheel. It wasn't fun.
So the e-brake would definitely not be a choice in this matter. It should be noted that manufacturers have dropped this term and replaced it with "parking brake" for legal and marketing reasons.
Re:parking brake? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Put it in neutral! (Score:3, Insightful)
This same thing happened a few years back with some woman in a Volkswagen. Turns out she never tried to turn the car off, or take it out of gear.
This driver should get cited for failure to maintain control of their vehicle. This whole story stinks of someone complaining about the car when, in fact, they a