Post-crash Salary Survey 415
MrRules writes "It's that time again;
the 2002 salary survey's are out.
This year there's an interesting twist:
SAGE,
SANS and Sun's
BigAdmin site have combined to run the largest global
participation sysadmin salary survey ever done.
What I like is that this is different to those surveys
done by HR departments -- this is real data on how you
spend your time, by sysadmins for sysadmins. It'll be interesting to see how things have changed over the past 18 months."
military (Score:2, Funny)
Re:military (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, being in a hostile fire zone (read: no taxes) helps some.
Re:military (Score:3, Interesting)
Until some of that hostile fire comes your way. No thanks, my life is worth more than ~$1K/month to me.
Re:military (Score:3, Funny)
What about friendly fire coming your way?
Re:military (Score:2, Funny)
Re:military (Score:2)
Re:military (Score:5, Funny)
Re:military (Score:2, Informative)
How about your freedom?
Re:military (Score:2)
I wonder what standard programs they are running. Best not say though, since that would give a list of known security holes.
Let's hope you're very, very good.
Re:military (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm the sole admin, postmaster, backup/veritas & webmaster, for a network over 120 UNIX machines, with everything from Linux PC's&Mac's, through Ultra5's, to E6500's, 48-processes IBM pSeries and 30-way SGI boxes.
About 350 users worth of "drag" to go with it...
Salary works out at about 29,000 dollars.
Which is why I code pr0n sites "out of hours"
Re:military (Score:3, Interesting)
small job (Score:5, Funny)
Sobering Thought (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Sobering Thought (Score:2)
Rus
Re:Sobering Thought (Score:5, Insightful)
At least with sysadmin, I would think the chances of having your job outsourced to India or somewhere else are less, at least some on site presence is still required. With a smaller tech sector, I think a diverse skill set will be mandatory. I myself am a part time admin, part time developer, and am always looking to expand my skill set. Browsing employment ads recently, employers seem to want an ever expanding set of skills and experience. I have BS in CS, and 6 years experience, but I may end up doing some of the (mostly meaningless) certs that HR drones seem to like.
Re:Sobering Thought (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure. Then they move all of the machines to India.
Re:Sobering Thought (Score:2)
Good riddance to those days. Worst thing about the boom was all the loudmouthed "web guys" in bars bragging about how much money they made. :)
Browsing employment ads recently, employers seem to want an ever expanding set of skills and experience.
The only people we are still interviewing have very specialized knowledge to go along with a diverse skillset. A checklist of certs and skills may get HR interested in your resume, but the in
Re:Sobering Thought (Score:3, Interesting)
Those of us are competant will still be able to find work
Of course, it wouldn't hurt if we wuz gud spelerz ether:)
Seriously, though, competence is only the first step.
A close friend manages a couple of dozen IT people and frequently is in a position to evaluate candidates for positions. Turnover is less than the booming late 1990's, but still happens.
She looks for people that are
Why sobering ? (Score:5, Interesting)
What you are saying is that the last 4 years have created unrealistic salaries for people who skills do not give the business benefits those salaries demand.
Or to put it another way, if you plot the salary curve for the last 20 years and factor out the
why do they need my e-mail??? (Score:5, Informative)
Still, given Slashdot's anti-spam attitude, I thought that maybe they are a decent organization and checked their privacy policy. Vain hope, it actually bluntly says: SAGE might also use this email address to notify you of other related news and we all know what this usually means, right?
Now call me paranoid but I've been burned by much more innocent looking sites asking for my e-mail address.
Re:why do they need my e-mail??? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:why do they need my e-mail??? (Score:2)
Re:why do they need my e-mail??? (Score:2)
Re:High risk for spam (Score:2)
Or are we to believe that they will tally the results and plot your information against the averages and such? Even if they had something fancy like that, I would still just go for seeing the end-results minus the bells and whistles.
Re:why do they need my e-mail??? (Score:4, Informative)
That's why you give them a throwaway email address (Score:2)
Then if you get a bunch of junkmail you can throw a fit and you can shut that address down.
Re:why do they need my e-mail??? (Score:2)
Re:why do they need my e-mail??? (Score:2, Insightful)
No offence, but how exactly is someone knowing your email address getting "burned"? Can we please get a little perspective? You weren't mugged or shot. You weren't targeted by the government because of your beliefs. You weren't even called by those annoying telemarketers. You got some email, that you probably filtered out anyway. Or deleted it in
I hate spam too, but please think outs
Pay Rise? Hah (Score:5, Interesting)
The economy is down and as there are so many people desperate to get jobs companies know they can offer lower rates and there will normally be someone who will be able to do the job well and except whatever the company is willing to pay.
I would be interested to know if there were still any growth areas but I think not apart from prehaps skills in very specialised subjects
Rus
Re:Pay Rise? Hah (Score:2)
Re:Pay Rise? Hah (Score:2)
The firm won't be as happy seeing you out with the kids in McDonalds as they will seeing you schmooze a client in a fancy 40 quid a plate restaurant.
Same with IT, and any other job. Binmen dont have to support a fancy car and a wardrobe of expensive suits - so they can afford to work for less. Sysadmins might li
Re:Pay Rise? Hah (Score:2, Insightful)
Sure they do, no doubt about that. But then I'd rather trust a SysAdmin that is unshaven wears a tshirt and short and you can smell from 10 meters away. Because, honestly: who would trust a SysAdmin in a suit that has a nice perfume on?
(Writing this myself at work while wearing a suit... Damn coporate policies..."
Re:Pay Rise? Hah (Score:2)
Re: Don't forget the Indian factor (Score:5, Informative)
Most admin jobs are typically in the mid 30's now for 5 years experience and if you have many years perhaps you can make as much as 50k. The
Re: Don't forget the Indian factor (Score:2)
I'll just wait here until things get better outside. (I still freelance on the side to keep my edge.)
Re: Don't forget the Indian factor (Score:3, Insightful)
And boy just about now, people are beginning to wonder why the hell they outsourced. Slowly *very* slowly the penny is dropping with management that cheap != good.
Make no mistake, those that have been biding their time over the past 18-24 months are starting to see market improvements, and are in place to maximize this.
I've seen people that have been made redundant 12 months ago
Are there still sysadmin only jobs out there? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Are there still sysadmin only jobs out there? (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah, but s/he didn't say how many of those six figures were to the left of the decimal point
Hard data... (Score:3, Funny)
(before you mod, learn to take a joke)
Re:Hard data... (Score:5, Interesting)
you may be more right then you think [yahoo.com]
Re:Hard data... (Score:2)
Re:Hard data... (Score:2)
Re:Hard data... (Score:2, Interesting)
And undoubtedly exacerbated by then newly minted "President" Bush who spent every moment talking down the economy until it started rolling downhill, just so that he could propose his "tax cuts for the rich" program.
Mark my words, we're gonna feel the negative effects of this one-termer's indifference to the economy (as it relates to the bo
Re:Hard data... (Score:3, Insightful)
OTOH you also can not claim that he had nothing to do with it.
GW for example created a brand new dept which ended up being one of the largest departments in history. In other words he grew the size of the federal govt more then anybody else in recent history.
He also undertook one of the largest rollbacks in civil rights in history.
He of course also went to war and
Re:Hard data... (Score:2)
Re:Hard data... (Score:3, Funny)
cLive
Pay Cuts (Score:5, Interesting)
Over the same period I've had four ten percent "take it or leave us" pay cuts, leaving me with a huge dent in my take-home pay.
How are other programmers faring? What's your plan? I'm sticking where I am for the time being and DEFINITELY plan to move on as soon as the market picks up.
In a twist of irony... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Pay Cuts (Score:4, Informative)
Rus
Re:Pay Cuts (Score:2)
Re:Pay Cuts (Score:2)
Rus
Re:Pay Cuts (Score:2)
If I owned a company under this law, my employees would also be protected from those nasty pay increases.
You'd have no employees rather quickly (Score:2)
HTH.
Re:You'd have no employees rather quickly (Score:2)
But for some reason, the same people who wouldn't stay if they never got increases would stick around if he cuts their salary, so he has to have a law passed against him?
Re:Pay Cuts (Score:2)
Re:Pay Cuts (Score:3, Funny)
So they can get laid off instaid? (Score:2)
Re:Pay Cuts (Score:2)
Re:Pay Cuts (Score:2)
Bullshit.
Well, OK, it's true they can not FORCE you to take it - but the alternative is that you quit your job.
It is legal.
It happens.
It is also fair (which is better - take a 10% paycut or have the firm have to lay off 10% of the workforce?).
Deal with it.
Except, you were on £100k+ to start with (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Except, you were on £100k+ to start with (Score:2)
And this looks like petty jealousy to me.
This is how the market works. During a skills shortage people can make a lot of money (usually it's the people that are good at their job that make the money) at the moment things are slack so people make less money. What is worse is those people that bluffed their way into permanent positions at inflated salaries during the boom and cannot be removed.
For the record, yes I earned lots of money in 2001 and less in
Re:Pay Cuts (Score:2)
Cheers,
Ian
Re:Pay Cuts (Score:3, Insightful)
My current plan is to ride this out in my current, moderately stable job where I'm still earning dotcom-boom money, and spend even more time than usual on skilling up.
Re:Pay Cuts (Score:2)
heh.. we don't do much.. (Score:5, Funny)
oh well.. back to my coffee..
As a developer... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:As a developer... (Score:2)
Just do what we do -- make all your root passwords a single carriage return! Easy to remember, and nigh impossible to
HACKED BY CHINESE
Re:As a developer... (Score:2, Interesting)
Admin passwords for workstations usually is the serial number on the machine. That's very effective, and someone who has no physical access to the computer will have a hard time to figure it out. It's not as if you can do a dictionary scan on a serial number...
If you comply about the US (Score:2, Informative)
I'm thinking about moving to Germany or something like that to get a good pay
This survey is only going to tell 1/2 of the story (Score:5, Interesting)
However, if the statistics were an equivalent of GDP for IT industry professionals (i.e. an estimate of the total take home pay of the profession) then the figures would almost certainly be utterly horrible.
According to www.jobsmeta.co.uk and www.jobstats.co.uk advertised vacancies in the UK are running around 50% of the middle of last year - in addition the hourly rate/annual salaries have also slipped (due to simple supply/demand). It wouldn't suprise me if IT-GDP (for want of a better term) was down 20-30% on the year.
Really this is just a way of saying things are tough all over - I'd like not to complain, but as one of the many people who are looking at the moment this market sucks and the reasons can't really be reduced to simple one-liners or attributed to anyone/thing in particular.
Right now a couple of months off to get some R&R thats been lacking over the last 5 years doesn't go amiss - but in a couple more I'm likely to get really flexible in what I'll look at just to avoid going mad at home. My main concern isn't a pay-cut (my essential bills are around 30% of my last salary) - but I don;t want to take a job outside of my key skills, people pay a huge amount of attention to your last role so it would be like writting off my career to date.
In the mean time I'm doing the odd day of freelance work - its not a lot but its covering the bills.
I guess we'll see where we end up.
Re:This survey is only going to tell 1/2 of the st (Score:2)
It was frightening to see how much I was down from 2001 to 2002 :(
The punchline? (Score:4, Funny)
Houston, we have a problem.
Crash? (Score:2, Troll)
If you want a system administrator job, look into the medical field. At least, if you're a surgeon, you won't have
Re:Crash? (Score:5, Interesting)
For regular bussinesmen its a recession. For IT workers its not just a crash but a depression. Not only are our jobs being cut but we are being outsourced to India at the same time. The good news is that the pay rate is so rediclously low that many people who went into IT for the money will leave. This leaves true geeks left assuming they have college degrees and years of experience.
I myself am applying at Wallmart tomorrow. I am young in my 20's and have great computer knowledge but only 2 years experience and no college degree. HR actually thinks computer science degree's teach you desktop troubleshooting as well as system administration and programming skills. Its a shame even linux kernel developers can not get jobs today because they have no cs degree as the same time vb weenies who are gifted in mathmatics are taking the jobs instead because hr thinks that degree will make them better programmers.
Re:Crash? (Score:2)
It has been my experience for the past 9 years out here in the unixy sysadmin/developer world, that having a degree is a fairly accurate predictor that the person won't "get it". At my last job where I actually did some hiring and interviewing, I specifically avoided resumes with degrees. There's not much you can learn from a course in Pascal programming taught by someone who's only ever written dorky recipe-reminder programs on their own PC, that you can't pick up on your own if you're a motivated geek w
Re:Crash? (Score:2)
If you're a "motivated geek" I would have thought you would love univeristy - an academic enviroment away from the corporate pointy-haired boss bullshit.
And since when has a degree been "a course in Pascal programming"? And since when have professors "only ever written dorky recipe-reminder programs"?
Re:Crash? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Crash? (Score:3, Informative)
No such thing.
There was barely a first dip, and not nearly a second. Claiming a third is completely making up numbers.
But then again, your picture of the "tax benefits policies" is so incredibly breaking from reality that it's no surprise you seem to be working from a different set of numbers on the recession count also...
Re:Crash? (Score:5, Interesting)
1. pays $90,000 in taxes
2. pays $9,000 in taxes
3. pays $1,000 in taxes
You realize that you overcharged and have $10,000 extra dollars. How should the money be divided up?
Then people complain when the 3rd person only gets $100 dollars back/cut and the 1st person gets $9,000 back/cut. Saying the tax cut/rebate was just for the rich.
Re:Crash? (Score:3)
<quote>
I was having lunch with one of my favorite friends last week and the conversation turned to the government's recent round of tax cuts. "I'm opposed to those tax cuts," the retired West coast college instructor declared, "because they benefit the rich. The rich get much more money back than ordinary taxpayers like you and me and that's not fair."
"But the rich pay more
Re:Crash? (Score:3, Informative)
Gee, has it occurred to you that the reason it seems that the "rich" (defined as "anyone who makes more than you") are the beneficieries of all the tax cuts is because they're the ones who pay BY FAR the most taxes? Perhaps 80% of the tax benefits are going to the top 1% because the top 1% contribute 80% of the government's tax revenue? Hmm?
WARNING: I made those numbers up, but my point remains. The majority of tax dollars come from a small minority of
Re:Crash? (Score:3, Insightful)
Nonsense. If you want to add wealth to the economy and insure that it circulates the most it makes the most sense to add it to the bottom. The wealthiest people are more likely to save a larger portion of their money or to invest it overseas.
You can't give 1 million dollars to the rich and expect all of it to end up in the hands of the less wealthy at some point in time. But
Re:Crash? (Score:2)
economy and my depression (offtopic a bit) (Score:2)
The skeletons in his closet are busted companies and state shortfalls in the billions.
It's easy to cut taxes, but I'd like to see some cuts in spending too.
(end rant)
Sorry, it just ticks me off that the economy sucks and Bush is asking for more money to go piss off other countries.
On another note, if I was in Iran, I'd be worried. I can imagine how worried I'd feel i
For once... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:For once... (Score:2)
A Grammar Nazi Writes .... (Score:5, Funny)
My condition (Score:3, Interesting)
Occupation: Student (K-12/Post-secondary) with a side dabbling of NT and UNIX administration.
Salary: After:
Occupation: Student (K-12/Post-secondary) with a side dabbling of NT and UNIX administration.
Salary: How many of you share my plight?
Re:My condition (Score:2)
There Are Jobs (Score:5, Insightful)
Trains keep running, doctors keep doctoring, governments keep gover^H^H^H^H^Hfucking stuff up, and life goes on.
Bubble or not, over the last few years IT has radically changed the way companies and organizations go about their everyday business. Tech is too embedded in the daily needs of banks, insurances, logistics companies, consultancies, porn peddlers, whatever, for everything to go to hell. We are currently in a recession/depression/dip/whatever. They happen. Economies are cyclical. This one just happens to be a bit more brutal to IT than usual.
A lot of people lose their jobs, companies restructure and try to cut costs, and others go under. But what's left, and despite the panic-mongering crap you see in the media, that would be the vast majority of businesses, still needs people to design, program, operate and fix their machinery.
Many of you/us may be saddled with extra work from fired colleagues and cranky end-of-life systems. Do you think this will last? Companies are starting to realize that the lost productivity from overwork, obsolescent gizmos, and low morale.
Granted, this may apply more to the 'average' tech job (I can hear people screaming already--given the amount of work we all do, none of it's 'average'.) But already I'm seeing quite a few companies hurting enough to hire tech consultants, because they need someone to fix their shit. NOW. As in, they're losing revenue because stuff isn't working. They're grimacing a lot more than they were two years ago when I hand over my invoice, but they have no choice.
In fact, the wiser companies with a bit of a stash on the side are hiring. The knowledge they want may be a lot more specialized, but once again, welcome to supply and demand.
Lest you think I'm mindlessly spewing optimism, I'm worried. I'm an independent network security consultant, and in fact, I've had nights of stark terror worrying about the immediate future. But you know what? Life goes on, things will pick up, and there'll be jobs. There's always work if people know you're good.
Might be a wise to put off buying that Ferrari for a couple of months, though. Now stop posting to slashdot and pick up a Java book
Re:There Are Jobs (Score:2)
Greenspan can cut the interest rate to -5 and it still won't make a difference at this point. What we've been witness to is alot of corporate scandals shifting wealth from the investors to a handful of guys that run the corporations. Just the other day WorldCom found that --oops!-- there's another 2 billion unaccounted for. I guarantee you it's
There are certain types of sysadmin jobs (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not a sysadmin -- I just accepted a new position as a business analyst after being laid off for 6 months by the
Survey (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't it a bit dangerous posting this survey to Slashdot? Whenever encountering a multiple choice form, it is inevitable that some Slashdot regulars will feel compelled to enter "CowboyNeal" as their answer.
HINT: Try the "Other" field for question nine:
That ought to confuse the shit out of them.
Re: I don;t know about anybody else (Score:4, Funny)
I don't know about anybody else but I found that my salary is inversly proportional to how often I crash the servers I look after. Its definatly lower post crash!!
Anyone find the same?
Unemployed, but life is good. (Score:3, Interesting)
Now I find taking this year out makes it very differcult convincing new employers to take me on depsite my qualifications and long work history. Why? The competition for new jobs is so intense and candidates who are still at work are a more attractive proposition for an interviewer.
But now I'm catching up on new technologies in my spare time, learning a new foreign language, keeping fit, made some great friends too.
I'm just glad I saved the pennies while times were good.
All I need now is a girlfriend.
Re:Unemployed, but life is good. (Score:2)
This is slashdot. We don't have girlfriends. Though if you insist, you can get one here [realdoll.com].
Job Loss... (Score:3, Interesting)
Businesses are cutting back. They are asking more of you than ever before. This *is* the reality of today's job market.
Looking on the bright side, at least my daughter who is presently attending college as well as my college bound son will be able to get financial assistance thru TAP and PELL... *grin
Remote management? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd say this is pretty unrealistic not to include remote management.
Salary in the computer field (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Anyone wanna post the results or a link to them (Score:2)