One Year After September 11 1974
One year ago today, at 9:12 eastern, we posted
World Trade Towers and Pentagon Attacked amidst the events of that day. Since Slashdot is really just a discussion site, I felt the most appropriate way to handle this anniversary is to simply do just that. I hadn't read those stories since the day it happened, and I really am at a loss for words. But I'm sure many of you won't be. And thanks to OSDN for turning banner ads off for the day.
Freedom after 9/11 (Score:5, Insightful)
So please, as you mourn, see your friends and family, or watch TV all day (which I hope you don't do), try to remember what it is that we're fighting for in the first place, ok?
Without those freedoms in tact.. there's nothing left to fight for.
I love you guys, tho, and I'm glad it wasn't any of you who were lost a year ago
Re:Thousands dead, freedom buried (Score:3, Insightful)
However I'm glad you raised the point about the freedoms that have been lost. The US has become a little more like the non-free countries it is fighting with the government exploiting the opportunity to help hide its own inadequacies.
Re:Thousands dead, freedom buried (Score:4, Insightful)
You may not want to mourn the deaths of those who make war, but you should mourn there decision to make war in the first place.
It is the idea that people deserve death for there actions, no matter what those actions are, that has gotten us into this whole mess.
Honor those who fell on 9/11/2001 by striving for peace and harmony. Don't wish death even on your enemies. Pity them for their mis-guided rage, but don't wish death on them.
Whether you are christian, muslim, jew or otherwise, the common thread is that man does not determine who lives and dies, god does. Think about that.
Re:Thousands dead, freedom buried (Score:5, Insightful)
--Gandalf
Re:Thousands dead, freedom buried (Score:3, Insightful)
We're talking about people who think it's OK to kill thousands of civillians and actively seek to do so. This isn't just "misguided," it's just plain wrong, but these people have all but been programmed to think this way.
What would we do with them? Could we capture them and try to "de-program" them? Not very likely. When you're cheering the death of thousands of unwitting civillians, I'm tempted to say you're too far gone for rehabilitation.
And what if it were possible? Would you enjoy living another 50-60 years knowing you did so utterly reprehensible and wrong? Normal people in the US prison system have to go through counseling when they take part in an execution, and that's just one person. How much counseling would you have to go through for 2000+?
The only other "alternative" is to lock them up in a cell somewhere for the rest of their lives. And as far as I'm concerned, captial punishment is more humane than life in prison with no chance of parole. Nothing but you, the four walls around you, and your thoughts.
These people are too far gone to even try to set straight. We'd be doing everybody a favor (including them) by killing them.
LIKE HELL I CAN'T! (Score:3, Insightful)
It is so sad that you think this is true.
There are VERY few people in this world that I wish death upon. They didn't accidentally have a stray bullet hit someone.
If you wanted to debate WHO the actual killers were, fine. Maybe the mastermind is the only person left who should go down, some might say that anyone who EVER heard even a whisper of a possibility of the plot and did not act is subject to death as well.
But to make a broad, generalizatation that NO ONE deserves death is just too much.
I WILL WISH DEATH UPON THEM. I do NOT pity them beyond the sad choice that have made, and their crass indifference to the impact their childish rage has brought.
Re:LIKE HELL I CAN'T! (Score:4, Insightful)
Total imminent fatalties, Hiroshima:
Est. 75,000.
Total imminent fatalities, Nagasaki:
Est. 40,000.
Total imminent fatalities, US/UK Dresden firebombing:
Est. 135,000.
Total Chinese civillians killed in the Rape of Nanking:
Est. 200-300K.
Total number of rapes committed there by the Japanese occupation:
Est. 20K.
Total number of Chinese civillians killed by the Japanese, 1931-1945:
Est. 30M.
Total number of wars of aggression or war crimes that Japan has committed since 1945:
Zero.
Alas, you are both wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason Japan has not had any agression since WWII is not the pounding they got, it is because of the MARSHAL PLAN.
Some history. After WWI, Germany was pounded into submission, millions killed, all infrastructure destroyed. Internaltional punishment was delt to them. They were oppressed. Germany was reviled, Their people hated world wide. Extremely horrible economic and emotional conditions.
Question: Did that prevent them from starting another war?
Answer: NO!
After WWII, The Marshal plan was implemented in both Germany and Japan. This plan prevented either from building an Army. But it did help both rebuild their economies, their industries, their schools and hospitals. The US and allies spent millions of dollars rebuilding Germany and Japan into modern, capable and respected countries. No oppression. No punishment.
Since then, neither has had any aggression of the type in WWII.
So, by your logic, Germany should have been stopped after WWI. But they weren't, were they. The difference? Rebuild them, respect them. Don't give them an emotional reason to go to war.
Now a question for you. If someone were to beat the crap out of you, a school yard bully (assuming you weren't the school yard bully). Would you sit and cower and pray he goes away, or would you plot vengence? Do you believe other people think any differently that you do on subjects like that?
Learn some history. Learn some psychology. Become a better person.
Peace be with you.
Re:Alas, you are both wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
What the hell.
Ben Laden is not a country. the Taliban are not a country. Afghanistan was a country. The Taliban are a band of bullies that managed to take control of a very weak and poor country and dominate it through fear and persecution.
If you want to avoid that sort of thing, you make the country capable of resisting that sort of takeover. You do that by giving it a common government in which all people have a concern. you give it an economy and industry that it can support itself with and defend itself with. You give it unity and ability. Then the likes of the Taliban are just another gang or mafia to be delt with.
Ten years ago, when the Russians left Afghanistan a mess and bugged out, the US also bailed out. Afghanistan had nothing, no food, no money, no government. That would have been the time to rebuild.
You don't have to destroy a country before starting the Marshal plan. You can go in and do it. There are plenty of countries in Africa right now that are in economic disarray and governed by the Warlord de Jour. Which of these will become the next Afghanistan? If we help them now, rebuild them, before people start dying, will we save American lives?
If I had asked you that about Afghanistan two years ago, would I have been wrong?
Re:The post's point (Re:LIKE HELL I CAN'T!) (Score:4, Interesting)
If by "long" you mean more than simply that regime during WWII, then that statement seems wrong. Japan was on the side of the Allies in WWI. In fact, nationalism only exploded in Japan after the WWI Treaty in which Japanese moderates we dealt a telling blow by people like President Wilson, who not only refused to honor their contributions, but rejected Japans' proposed treaty language condemning racism and wars of racial superiority (boy, was THAT shortsighted of us!).
The Japanese moderates tons of face over this, the hardliner racist facists took over, and Japan basically decided that if the West would never accept them as equal partners, and there could be no truce against racial rivalry, then the West wasn't going to be allowed to belittle it anymore, or treat it as trivial.
---It's a good point to note: tit for tat leads to ongoing conflict, while massive retaliation generally gets the message across more succinctly and saves lives in the long run.---
So why wasn't Iraq's gassing of the Kurds, most of whom were rebelling at the time, just good policy? It sent a message (just as we sent a message in Japan) that stopped the fighting in its tracks and certainly saved a lot of lives. Do you at least appreciate how easily this principle could be abused? Do you at least see that, however warped, this was EXACTLY the stated rationale of Osama: that if they caused enough damage in one blow, that we'd reconsider and get out of the Middle East, thus saving them the trouble of having to start a war there?
Re:LIKE HELL I CAN'T! (Score:3, Informative)
2.) Total casualties at Hiroshima 145,000 [Source The Nuclear Files [nuclearfiles.org]]
Furthermore the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasiaki were not terrorist attacks. They were attacks made after a formal declaration of war against a foreign power. The attacks were directed at centers of production and military signigance as well as civilian targets. It is also important to realize that for the purposes of an invasion of the Japanese home islands there were no civilians.
In answer to someone who mentions US bombing of countries and compares that to the number of Jews the Nazis killed, your figgures on the Nazis are off by a factor of 2. The Nazis killed 6 Million Jews (and a good deal more non-Jews). For the record, Stalin killed something like 30 million of his own people, Mao over 60 Million.
Terrorism is different than war and it is different than political purges. All three are bad, but they are apples and oranges. Please understand that before you go making comparisons.
Re:Thousands dead, freedom buried (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyone who would call someone who chooses peace over war, communication over violence, love over hate a kook, clearly does not get the point.
I do live in the US. I can't know what it is like to live in a country that does not have a strong police force. I never have.
The events of 9/11/01 show that no matter how strong your police force, the agents of violence will suceed if they are determined.
The events post-9/11/01 show that no matter how strong your military, you can not defeat violence with violence, hate with hate.
I would like to point to a few examples of peace and communication defeating violence. First case, Mahatma Gandhi. He defeated a powerful empire without firing a shot.
Second case, Steven Biko. He died trying to free the black majority of South Africa. He wasn't arrested for killing anyone, he was arrested for speaking out. He died in prison, beaten to death by his guards. In the end, peace prevailed and the government changed. I'll bet Steven Biko would do it all over again, even knowing that he would be killed.
You either choose peace, or you don't. For those of us who do, it is absolute. If you want to hate me because I choose not to hate you, so be it. I would rather die, the victim of a terrorist act, than live as a killer, no matter how bad the person I killed was.
I am very surprised that a message of peace would get so many negative responses. It saddens me.
Re:Thousands dead, freedom buried (Score:5, Insightful)
Blasphemy is the act of putting oneself in the role of God, Allah, the Almighty, whatever name you might have for a deity. Only the deity-- or so the collective opinion goes-- can decide who deserves to live or to die. Deciding that John Smith deserves to die, and then killing him, is blasphemy. That's the basic moral justification behind the legal prohibition on murder. Even if he deserved it, you can't just kill him.
Soldiers and their bosses-- politicians-- don't decide who deserves to live or to die. When a soldier goes to war and kills a member of the opposing army, he's not making any sort of philosophical statement about that person's right to live. That's not what war is about.
War is about exercising force to impose the will of one person, group, or nation on another person, group, or nation. During that exercise of force, people are going to get killed. That's a bad thing, no question about it, and it would be great if that didn't have to happen.
But see, the thing is, we-- humanity-- have yet to figure out how to impose our will on others without using force and killing people. When (to pick the canonical example) a Nazi Germany puts Europe to the torch, it's necessary for the rest of the world to impose its collective will on that nation. "Cut it out," we say. "Make me," Germany says. So what are you left with? You exercise force and kill a lot of people, because it's better than the alternative.
When two nations go to war, the only objective is to hurt the other guy so much that he loses his collective political will to go on fighting. Go back and read that sentence again. The objective of war is not to remove the enemy's ability to fight. It's to remove his will to fight. That's why the Cold War-- in which hardly a shot was fired-- was a success, and the Gulf War-- in which our army stomped Iraq's-- was less so. At the end of the Cold War, the capitalist/democratic part of the world had removed the communist/totalitarian part of the world's will to fight. We can turn our back on Russia-- in the military, not social or economic, sense-- with no fear of them. But after the Gulf War, we had removed Iraq's ability to wage war, by destroying his army and installation, but we didn't diminish his will to make war. That's a bad thing. It means the next chance he gets, he'll make war on us again. We can't turn our back on Iraq. (Christ, that's a bumper sticker just waiting to happen.)
It's a common misunderstanding, so I certainly don't blame you for making it. But the ordinary rules of behavior for people simply don't apply when dealing with nations or factions at war. In war, the rules are different.
Re:Thousands dead, freedom buried (Score:3, Informative)
Nelson Mandela agrees:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/africa/225106
Mandela on the US
Bush motivated by arms sales and oil
Dick Cheney a 'dinosaur'
US responsible for Iran's Islamic revolution
US action led to Taleban
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Thousands dead, freedom buried (Score:3, Insightful)
But the problem is that we aren't in a war.
Uhh, yes we are. I suppose we were not in a war in Viet Nam then either, right?
It wasn't the nation of Afganistan who attacked; it was the Al-Qaida.
Each country must be responsible for those who live in that country. If a terrorist group from our soil destroys something in China, claiming to hate all people from china, you bet we (as a country) would be held responsible. Whether you are the terrorist or simply let them live in your house, you are both guilty.
Additionally, very few people seem to realize that it was our own government who formed these militant Islamic terrorist group to fight the "godless commies" back in the Cold War
No, we didn't teach these people to hate americans. We didn't teach them to hate jews. We didn't teach them that killing innocent people is good. They must be reposonsible for their own actions. Everyone knows right from wrong, they are choosing to ingore that.
It was also our government who provoked these groups into action by exclusively sponsoring Israel in the Middle East
I am not a big fan of backing Isreal much either, so I don't have a repsonse to that.
Re:Thousands dead, freedom buried (Score:3, Interesting)
Case in point. When Sadam attacked Kuwait, Bin Laden went to the Saudi Royal family and said, "I have a plan". And his plan was not that bad and would have succeeded. What did the Saudi's do? Ask the West and America for help. Bin Laden at that point got very annoyed and decided to wage a war against the US.
My point is that because that region has basically no democracy and is run by a bunch of royal wing nuts discontent is bound to occur. And that is the true creator of groups like Al Quaida. Why vent at the West? Simple, it is easier to vent at somebody who can be used as a focus and rally point. Venting at the Saudi family is a real quick way to get your head chopped off. But venting at American's? No problem, Saudi family has no issues with that.
Re:Thousands dead, freedom buried (Score:3, Insightful)
The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait was just a new opportunity for Bin Laden to get into Kuwait while its royal family was absent, so that he can come in as a hero and perhaps win the respect of all of its citizens and therefore have the Kuwaiti royal family indebted to him. The Saudis knew that this proposition was dangerous to their own position; Saudi Arabia itself may be a heavily Islamic government, but they respected the Kuwaitis for their cultural and economic growth. Also, there's no telling what kind of power Bin Laden would have once he won the minds of a country that had roughly 10% of the world's oil supply. He probably would have redefined the meaning of oil into tool for Islam and could have screwed with the West and Israel, and ruining Saudi's economy after the fallout of a new oil crisis.
And the Saudis also knew the plan was insane on strategic grounds; a bunch of men in black hoods who trained on monkey bars going into Kuwait is just nutty. Sure, the gorrila tactics worked in Afghanistan against the Soviets, but only because of the terrain of the country, and only with the help of countries like the US with military equipment. Bin Laden got offended because Saudi Arabia would rather let the Americans handle this rather than let "Muslims" protect their pride.
Re:Freedom after 9/11 (Score:5, Insightful)
I would gladly die to protect my freedom. If that means I might have a greater chance of being the victim of a terorist attack, so be it. Some forfeiture of safety has always been the price of freedom.
I guess the terrorists won the most unimaginable battle of all.
Re:Freedom after 9/11 (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Freedom after 9/11 (Score:3, Insightful)
However, if one looks at the backlashes that occur during any war, this is actually a bit less restrictive than what happened during the Civil War, World War One, World War Two or the height of the Red Scare in the 1950s.
Newspaper editors that speak out against war are not being detained or having citizenship stripped. Cities with large Arab populations or a population that speaks out in favor of the attackers have not been occupied by the United States Army and had martial law declared.
Citizens of Arab heritage are not being forced to close mosques, change the names of foods that sound too ethnic or having foriegn language papers banned or closed.
Tens of thousands are not being put into camps. Terrorists are not being put to death in swift military courts with the sanction of the Supreme Court.
There has not been looting of Arab owned businesses or widespread harasment of Arabs.
People that profess support or understanding for the attackers are not being called before special sessions of Congress or being black listed for thier views.
All of these things happened in the past, after far less damage had been done to the United States than what happened last year.
Lincoln had any Northern newspaper editors or firebrands that spoke out against the war thrown in prison or thrown out of the United States. The CSA occupied parts of Virgina and Tennessee to keep them from going to the Union while the Union kept Maryland in the Union. Baltimore was occupied and had martial law declared. Draft riots in New York lead to hundreds of dead.
Germans in the United States were forced to give up thier language, culture and under went terrible profiling during World War One. Far worse than anything Arabs or Blacks in the United States have gone through in the last 30 years.
Germans in the the Second World War were not descriminated against as much, but more than 12,000 went to camps while thousands of Japanese Americans also went to camps along with a few Italians.
I understand the fear now, but taken into perspective, it is nothing like what happened in the past.
Re:Freedom after 9/11 (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Freedom after 9/11 (Score:5, Insightful)
You can go off about how messy history is all you want and be completely right, of course, but at the same time ignore that this is in fact still a considerably different situation than in those other wars. People may not have know when they would end, but there was always the knowledge that they would end, that there would be some sort of victory or defeat or truce, negotiated between governments, to end the hostilities. Those conflicts required the support of nations and nations will eventually come to terms. There is, and can be, no such expectation here--when the combatants on one side are a handful of individuals in a small, renewing pool, there is no way to know that it will ever end--or if it has, that the fact will ever be acknowledged by the powers that be.
He made a very good, and very real point, and that is that no one can ever answer his question. Not now, and not later. There aren't going to be armistice ceremonies, any papers signed. When you say "This fight is obviously not over yet", what is your expectation for how it will be obvious when it is over? I can't think of anything definitive. This is just a different situation, and he's right to be relatively more worried about the state of his civil liberties in such circumstances.
Re:Freedom after 9/11 (Score:5, Insightful)
Very, very well put.
I think its important to note, also, that as we look at our history, to other conflicts that involved terrorism and guerilla warfare, we can easily see that "an end" to our current "War on Terrorism" will not be easy to come by, nor swift to arrive.
While some of us here in America have only recently become aware of the conflict between Pakistan and India over the Kashmir region, because of Pakistan's proximity to Afghanistan, and our interest in that area, it is in fact the case that this "terrorist" conduct over the Kashmir region has been ongoing since the British left India and agreed to allow the king of Kashmir to decide which country he wanted his "kingdom" to be a part of.
The point being: the fight has been ongoing for a long, long time as a result of the 'renewing pool' indicated by the parent post. The very same can be said of the conflict in Northern Ireland which, in one form or another, has been ongoing since the days of the Potato Famine (or even before ?)
While I'm no expert at history, nor of historic struggles, it appears to me that a true war, while possibly more gruesome in the short term, may actually be favorable in the long run, as it allows both the aggressors AND the defenders to return to a 'normal', albeit different than the previous 'normal', way of life. The families that have grown up in Belfast know nothing of 'normal' life. The sons and daughters of Kashmir militants know nothing of a 'normal' life. The survivors and families of victims of the 9/11 attacks on the US, while forever changed, have known a normal life and may again know a normal life, assuming no further attacks. However, if our War on Terrorism continues indefinitely, without any thought to solving the causes of the terrorism directed at the US and other countries, we, as a country, will join Belfast and Kashmir as a people who do not KNOW what it means to be 'normal'.
This would (will?) be unfortunate.
Re:Freedom after 9/11 (Score:5, Insightful)
wouldn't it be fascinating to see a "freedom loving nation" react to something like 9/11 by introducing *more* freedoms? unfortunately i didn't see that in ireland or the uk after omagh, and i don't see it in america today.
just for the record, if i'm ever killed by a terrorist don't take away the freedoms of the living in my name. i can think of no worse way to spit on my grave then to do such a thing. pass legislation furthering gay rights, equal pay for minorities or women, or repealing things like the special criminal court in ireland or the patriot act in america.
now that's fighting for freedom.
Re:Freedom after 9/11 (Score:5, Interesting)
While I agree with you that things have been worse -- Lincoln actually jailed some state senators so that they would not vote for succession and suspended the writ of habeus corpus. But, I don't think that we should just breathe easy. The Red Scare didn't happen overnight, and each liberty that we loose will take a great deal of effort to regain.
Wrong, wrong, wrong! (Score:5, Insightful)
Right after September 11 the widespread harasment started. Mosques got firebombed in my home state! I saw them burning with my own eyes!
I distinctly remember an Indian conveniance store worker who was shot and killed because the other person believed his kind to be terrorists. So you only had to look like you were from the Middle East to be attacked. Israelis, Pals, Iranians, and many others from the ME have been discriminated against since 911 simply because they look like a terrorist to an ignorant racist.
Throw in the numerous racist newspaper articles since 911. Also the many comments made on national TV about Islam being the enemy. Yeah, thats harrasment.
People from the ME were also forced to give up their airplane seats because of their race... sounds like an analogy of a certain bus incident that helped spark the civil rights movement.
Countless Muslims and people from the ME lost their jobs since 911 due to similar racist fears.
Wholesale, Muslims' citizenship and patriotism was questioned by many "experts" in the media.
Teachers teaching their kids that all Palestinian kids are taught to be suicide bombers. Yup, you forgot that one too, didn't you?
The blatant use of 911 to further the pro-Israel propaganda machine. I mean, how relavent was that video of a few Pals dancing in the street to the events just unfolding on 911? It was awefuly conveniant to play that at a time when the mass population was so emotionally weak. Also knowing that the mass population doesn't know a damn thing about the history of the Palestinians. Playing that video on 911 was blatant propaganda, and their are many other examples of the pro-Israel croud using 911 to further Israeli occupation of that area.
The Palestinians didn't attack us.
That whole Iraq thing. Yup, 911 is being used as a propaganda push to start a war against an entire nation. Iraq has never attacked us.
Hell, just search on Google for "Muslim", "Islam", "Arab", etc... you will find plenty of racism.
I remember a Muslim Iraqi friend of mine, who had just became an American citizen. The day after 911 he told me he was ready to enlist and help fight to protect America. He is more patriotic than most Christian European-Americans, so why should we question him because of his race or religious creed?
Re:Freedom after 9/11 (Score:3, Insightful)
Same goes for the Korean War, Vietnam War, Persian Gulf War, etc. They're still wars, declared or not.
Re:Freedom after 9/11 (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Puleeze! (Score:4, Insightful)
Today, we have secret courts used to judge people, the FBI/CIA is allowed to perform surveillance on anyone and everyone and the key to the equation...no one is liable or reporting to freedom's biggest driver - us. Before we start bashing a political party, just understand that the old and true parties need to take the blame for the lack of freedom today.
Slashdot was a GREAT place to be on Sept 11 (Score:5, Interesting)
Reading the kind words of the slashdot community was a tremendous help and I realized that there were others who were searching for folks in the attacks, some not as lucky as myself.
It's a spirited place but it is a site that feels like family.
Re:Slashdot was a GREAT place to be on Sept 11 (Score:4, Insightful)
I work for a Defense Contractor too, on the approach path to IAD runway 1R, where the plane that hit the Pentagon departed.
My best source of news was
I was glad to make a few contributions (noting that the Pentagon will not fit into a 100' hole, etc.) but was more glad to read the words of others from around the world.
Many thanks to all.
Re:Slashdot was a GREAT place to be on Sept 11 (Score:3, Interesting)
IWADC (I was a defense contractor). And I was damn proud of what I worked on too. Stuff I coded was one of the unsung successes of the Gulf War (it allowed the army guys to do their fireplanning on the move during the famous "end run").
What do you produce? It helps humans?
Yes, it does. It also helps simian lifeforms like you by defending your right to be a complete dickhead.
TV coverage feels wrong (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:TV coverage feels wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
I think it is the speedy turnaround of these 'visuals' that is disconcerting. I'd much rather just have the video feed, and a guy in a studio saying 'holey shit' than a million glossy flaping flags with the towers in the background.
It really did feel a little too much like a Chris Morris stunt, a live edition of Brasseye.
I think
They're not making money today (Score:5, Insightful)
For that matter, they didn't run commercials for two or three days after the attacks.
Re:They're not making money today (Score:5, Interesting)
It's an image ploy. It's kinda like offering "Shindler's List" without commercials a couple of years ago. Everyone thinks they're a nice network...so they're more likely to watch in the future. It sounds silly, but it is a common ploy in the media.
Our newspaper published today without any ads. A friend at the paper told me that its a nice thought, to the public...but to advertise for the next month, it's going to be much more expensive to "cover the costs of today's paper". In actuality...the paper makes out in the long run. I wouldn't put it past the TV networks to do something similar.
Re:They're not making money today (Score:3, Insightful)
On a normal day, in a normal year...if a newspaper said "we want X amount of money for a full page ad", a business would question the price. In fact, they probably still would. But this time the paper replies "Oh, we had to increase costs slightly for a while to cover the cost of the ad-free newspaper we published on 9/11/02". What's a company going to say to that? I'm sure some companies won't buy that. But many would probably simply eat the cost so long as there is a reason.
Re:TV coverage feels wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
I feel the need to do my normal routine today. Yes, it's the day we observe 9-11, but it should also be the day that we start to get back to normal lives. We're well on our way...but the economy is still affected, and the world is still mourning.
I'm not watching TV because I don't feel the need to relive such events. I don't want to see those images again. I would rather see stories about the future. I would rather see a story about what's going to be built in its place. And I would like to see a story about what the businesses are doing, where they moved to, and how they're making out. But I can't expect that from the coverage. For the five minutes I watched...I saw images of the towers falling again, I saw a story of the sorrow a woman felt. I don't want to see that stuff...I've seen it, and while I can't forget it, I don't want to relive it.
I'm sure that many people agree.
Walter Cronkite Agrees (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a quote from the transcript [cnn.com] of the Larry King show on CNN:
KING: Do you agree, though, with the all-day coverage? Every network seems to be doing...
CRONKITE: No, I think we're going to get very weary, as tragic as are the stories, as heartrending as are the stories, as tear- jerking as are the stories, I think we're going to get very tired of hearing them over and over again over a period of two or three days or more. I think it's going to be overdone.
I agree with Walter...
The Events You Equate Were Fudamentally Different (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes it is different, but not for the asinine racist or bigoted reasons you so disingenuously imply.
First, the insinuation that it is somehow common for Americans to value American lives over other lives is false and disingenuous. Media coverage does not equal people's attitudes. When I lived in Germany, the national news emphesized which Germans had been killed in such and such an event, just as American media emphesizes which Americans are killed in such and such an event. Ditto for the time I spent in Japan, in the UK, in Hong Kong, and in France. The Media always emphesizes the number of 'locals' killed in dramatic events, irrespective of whether those 'locals' are Americans, French, Germans, Chinese, or Japanese.
However, none of the Germans I knew were any less horrified at the loss of non-German lives than they were with the German lives lost (remember the Concord?). Ditto for the UK, France, etc., and ditto for the United States
Secondly, you are equating battles which took place against already belligerent enemies engaged in all out, no-holds barred world war, versus unprovoked attacks (by any reasonable definition, all "blame the victim" nonsense aside) during peacetime, such as Pearl Harbor and most especially the events of 9/11. This doesn't make the destruction of Heroshima, Nagasaki (forgot about them, didn't you?), and Dresden any less tragic or terrible, but it does mean they were fudamentally different in their nature and their context than the events of 9/11.
So, while the civilian deaths of Heroshima and Dresden were terrible, that was war, waged against countries which were engaged in active hostilities against us and who, by the way, started the fucking thing to begin with. The World Trade Center, in contrast, was not. Equating the two, and drawing asinine conclusions like "Americans are bigots who care only for themselves" is fallicious both logically and ethically, and frankly you should be ashamed.
The vast majority of us (aside from some fringe elements, of which every country has its fair share I might add) are horrified whenever we see death, be it American or otherwise. Why do you think we give so much of our money to try and alleviate famine, pestilence, and the ravages of wars we aren't even involved in in so many distant lands. Because, irrespective of our media or our government's behavior, we as a people do care about human life and are saddened by human suffering, irrespective of whether the people affected are American or not.
US Response (Score:4, Interesting)
I personally feel we are continuing to provoke such things through our economic agenda, and that what bush's policy has been shortsighted and really retro-active. Others feel that the world climate is changing for the worst, and we simply need to start protecting ourselves more. What do you think?
Re:US Response (Score:5, Insightful)
One year on, I'm a bit less afraid, but not by a lot. I fear the US will drag the world into a big fucking war in the middle east we'll live to regret. The alternative I suppose is to not attack, and probably let some of these countries that sponser terrorism develop big arse weapons, which we'll regret too.
I dunno - a tough call, but I can't believe going to war is the only answer. The trouble is I don't know what the right answer is.
Re:US Response (Score:3, Interesting)
I fear the US will drag the world into a big fucking war in the middle east we'll live to regret.
There is no past precedence for your fear. The U.S. has dragged no one into a large scale war. Europe and Japan have dragged the U.S. into war, the U.S.S.R. initiated a long term arms buildup, but the U.S. has done nothing but defend itself and come to the aid of friends and enemies alike.
Both (Score:4, Interesting)
Both.
When I was a small child, I was taught to not approach the cute little bear cubs that would sometimes wander close to my parent's vacation home in the spring time. Yes, it was our property, and yes, bears can be destructive, but the cub was doing what cubs do, which, in and of itself, was not harming anything. Mama bear, of course, was expected to be close behind.
So it is when dealing with the affairs of others. OBL attacked the U.S. ostensibly because of American presence in Saudi Arabia, which he repeatedly denounced.
Executive Summary: When your government, put in place either through your winning electoral choice, or your acceptance of a democratic process pisses someone off, you increase your risk of dying.
Right or wrong, heinous or noble, justified or not -- such words vulnerable to the winds of propaganda matter didly squat to your corpse rotting at the bottom of a pile of rubble.
So, you must chose carefully, those acts in which you, or your representatives engage, for you will be faced with the burden of defending against their consequences. This does not mean that one should cower and hide in the face of those who disagree with what you believe are your rights, but it does mean you should pick wisely when chosing what's worth risking death at the hands of those you enrage.
Somehow, I have a hard time believing any sane American who values his or her freedoms would accept that U.S. interests in Saudi Arabia were worth the loss of some 3000 lives or the liberty-suspending measures purported to to be able to prevent such a loss in the future.
Sometimes, it IS better to let the bully have his corner of the sandbox -- if you're willing to fight him lest he cross some arbitrary line in the dirt, let him pick the line and see if it is all that unreasonable. Then you can defend both your turf and the moral high ground.
P.S. You know, as an aside, I chuckle about the semantic hack OBL pulled: the U.S. can't declare "war" war against an individual, only a nation, and so can't legally muster the "war-mode" enabling powers it otherwise could. Yet it clearly faces a situation that any sane person would clearly interpret as an "act of war". Heh, doublespeak bites the usual government mouthpiece on the ass. I'll leave it to the gentle reader to decide whether that's adding insult to injury or poetic justice, dripping in bloody irony.
FUCK COMMIE LIBERALS - I AM AMERICAN (Score:5, Funny)
I like big cars, big guns, big motorcycles, and big tits. I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some mid-level governmental functionary with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts squeezing out babies.
I don't care about appearing compassionate. I think playing with guns doesn't make you a killer. I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason. I think I'm better than the homeless. I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. I don't care if you call me a racist, a homophobe or a misogynist. I am not tolerant of others just because they are different.
I know that no matter how big Jennifer Lopez's ass gets, I'll still want to see it. I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you do it in English. I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for unpopular opinions or actions.
I want to know when MTV became such crap. I think getting a hummer is sex, and every man is entitled to at least one extremely sloppy one per month.
I know what the definition of lying is. I think Oprah's eyes are way too far apart. I didn't take the initiative in inventing the Internet.
I want them to bring back safe and sane fireworks.
I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osborne, Ice-T or Marilyn Manson sang. I think that being a student doesn't give you any more enlightenment than working at Blockbuster.
I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite or fat-free on the package. I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God or gods, and they can do it in their schools. I think the Clippers should play in the WNBA.
My heroes are John Wayne, Ronald Reagan, Norman Schwartzkopf, Colin Powell and whoever canceled Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman. I think creative violence and useless nudity and sex makes Iraqis deader and movies more interesting.
I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. I know wrestling is fake, but I still think The Rock could kick my butt. I think global warming is junk science. I've never owned or was a slave, I didn't wander forty years in the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither have you, so shut-the-fuck-up already.
Rocky and Bullwinkle still makes me laugh. I think you can respect and admire women while mentally undressing them. I believe a self-righteous liberal with a cause is more dangerous than a Play Station.
I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jesse Jackson preaches. I think explosions are cool. I don't care where Ellen DeGeneres puts her tongue. I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if you're running from them. I thought Spinal Tap was great, but Rob Reiner can still kiss my ass.
I worry about dying before I get even.
I like the convenience of buying oranges while I'm waiting at a stoplight, and I'm pretty sure the Latina midget selling them to me is glad she no longer lives in a refrigerator packing carton outside Ensenada.
I figured out Bruce Willis was dead midway through The Sixth Sense but enjoyed it anyway. I think turkey bacon sucks. I want somebody to explain to me exactly why it's wrong to point out that when I watch a freeway chase, I know the losers the police eventually pull out of the car are gonna be gang-banging homies or hispanics.
I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it takes a parent. I think tattoos and piercings are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement and not a fad. I like hard women, hard liquor and a hard bowel movement first thing in the morning.
I believe you don't have to speak with a lisp to pick out a couch for your living room.
I'll admit that the only movies that ever made me cry was Sands of Iwo Jima and Ole Yeller. I didn't realize Dr. Seuss was a genius until I had a kid. I will not conform or compromise just to keep from hurting somebody's feelings. Making love is fine, but sometimes I just wanna get laid.
I'm neither angry nor disenfranchised, no matter how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to believe otherwise.
YES, I'm a BAD American.... >:-)
RIP one of many - Cindy Deuel (Score:4, Informative)
Got me thinking... (Score:5, Insightful)
Feel free to mark your calendar for the other months besides September.
January 28, (1986) The Challenger Accident
February 13, (2001) San Salvador, El Salvador 6.1 Earthquake
March 24, (1989) Exxon Valdez
March 28, (1979) 3 Mile Island
April 18, (1906) The San Francisco Earthquake
April 19, (1995) The Oklahoma City Bombing
April 14, (1912) The Titanic
May 6th (1937) The Hindenburg Disaster
June 6th, (1944) D-Day
July 25, (1956) The Andrea Doria sinking.
August 6, (1945) Hiroshima Bombed
August 16 - 28 (1992) Hurricane Andrew
October 8, 9, and 10, (1871) The Great Chicago Fire
October 17, (1989) Loma Prieta earthquake
October 23-29, (1929) Stock Market Crash
November 17-18, (1978) Jonestown
November 22, (1963) Kennedy Assaination
December (1984) Union Carbide Bhopal Disaster
December 7, (1941) Pearl Harbour
December 21, (1988) Pan Am Flight 103 Lockerbie bombing
Re:Got me thinking... (Score:5, Informative)
September 11 (1973) US-backed coup overturns democratically elected government in Chile, leading to thousands of deaths, tortures and "disappearances"
Re:Got me thinking... (Score:4, Informative)
Here is a link:http://www.americas.org/News/Features/200110
Chile, etc. (Score:5, Insightful)
My father was there. He was listening to the radio as democratically elected Aliende prepared to defend his country with his life. Even knowing that he had no chance, he armed himself and stood in front of the seat of the govenrment to fend off the coup with his own hands.
Would Bush have done the same? Would any recent U.S.president?
If some foreign force invaded DC, would any recent president -- knowing it would be certain death -- have the cojones to deffend his nation? Or would he run and hide?
My parents were both in Brazil durring the U.S.-backed military dictatorship there. My father got a first-hand look at just how involved the U.S. was in that affair.
My father and I now work to change U.S. policy so that maybe someday the rest of the world won't have a reason to hate us. Patriotism is loving your country enough to see its faults -- and try and fix them.
You forgot... (Score:3, Funny)
August 8, (1995) Windows 95 Release Date
I will not forget the one or many (Score:5, Informative)
The Real Effect of September 11 (Score:5, Informative)
Overview of Changes to Legal Rights
By The Associated Press
September 5, 2002, 11:44 AM EDT
Some of the fundamental changes to Americans' legal rights by the Bush administration and the USA Patriot Act following the terror attacks:
* FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.
* FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.
* FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.
* RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.
* FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.
* RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.
* RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.
Copyright © 2002, The Associated Press
Yay for liberty and freedom! We are Americans! Look how free we are!
Looking back; looking foward. (Score:5, Interesting)
I was consulting at a company in Rockville, a few miles outside the district. I heard the first plane had hit while I was listening to WGMS, DC's classical station; figured it for a Cessna or something. After I hit my desk I knew something was wrong when I couldn't hit a major news site for confirmation of the story.
We switched the news on; we had a big TV with DirecTV on it in the company kitchen. I had stepped away to try and get word to friends about what had happened, using instant messenging apps, when the second plane hit.
The people in our kitchen reached the instantaneous conclusion that this was not accidental. We watched as the towers burned, saw them fall, heard about the Pentagon being hit. My company employed 65 people there; were they okay?
Workers left to take their children home. I left around 1pm, with F16s and helicopters covering the sky of the DC metro area.
I called my family. They were trying to reach me but couldn't get through due to circuits being jammed. They were terrified that I was there; too many rumors, too little verification that day for us all.
September 11th, 2002:
Last November, my company deployed me to the Pentagon. It started out as one of those "for a week" things, but I wound up involved in a COOP project - Continuity of Operations - directly related to making sure a second 9/11 cannot cripple our nation's defense infrastructure. I'm sitting at my desk, thinking of how much the last year has affected my life (too much work, constant stress, a divorce..) and knowing that the majority of the things that have happened to me of late can be directly traced back to 9/11; were it not for that attack, I would not be where I am now.
I do not know if things are for the better. All I know is that I have been called on to use my meager technical skills to help my country when it was sorely needed. I'm doing my part to make sure we make it through.
Would that we all could do the same.
Random thoughts that may "incite" discussion :) (Score:4, Insightful)
What is it with all these stories coming out now about how Iraq could have nuclear weapons in like 30-40 seconds? Seriously though, a few months ago they were saying "2-3 years", now it's down to "6 months" or less. Are they making excuses to attack Iraq? Can't it be argued that the US is also a country with weapons of mass destruction and a warmongering leader?
It is a shame that civilians died in the terrorist attacks, but what about the civilians the US has killed in Afghanistan, like that wedding - they excuse it by saying some collateral damage is to be expeced. Why do they say that the 'terrorist' attacks were "cowardly"? It'd take a fairly brave and strong willed person to willingly fly themselves into a building. If they were cowardly they'd just talk about how they were going to attack America but do nothing about it.
What is it with removing all images of the WTC from movies etc in the last year?! It happened, we all know it happened. Removing the WTC from media I would think is an insult to the victims, it's as if they're saying that the buildings never existed.
Enough typing for me, flame away
A few points (Score:4, Insightful)
However, I do think it is worth as this point reflecting on the foreign policy of sucessive US governments, that is the governments that have helped create Saddam's milirary might, backed the Talibans rise to power, backed Israel and other Pro-American Arab reigems which suppress their own people and finally (especially for us Brits) helped fund the IRA - who have been systimatically blowing up and killing people in both the UK and Ireland for well over 20 years.
George Bush stated that last year was when the world rose up to fight against terrorism. In fact, the world has been rising up and fighting terrorism for over 20 years and had it not been for September 11th, the US would still have not been involved.
I'm not using these points as an excuse for what the Taliban did. Any group that carries out such a thing are despicable - but I believe that the US Goverment should stand back and reflect all the possible concequences of what their policy of meddling in (and funding of) hardline groups of individuals in other countries could bring about.
I observed a minutes silence today, both for the innocent victims of September 11th and for the innocent victims of the future who will suffer when the US seeks to take revenge.
Re:A few points (Score:3, Insightful)
Blockquoth the poster:
If we don't "meddle," we're called isolationists. If we do "meddle," we're called imperialists. Fuck it, we just can't win.
Re:A few points (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes you can win. You can admit that the fundamental rights that all American have are the same fundamendal rights ALL the people of the world can expect. And then try to help and support other contries - instead of bombing and invading.
Re:A few points (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A few points (Score:3, Insightful)
To call this "revenge" is simply ignorant. All nations, including the big, bad United States, have inalienable right to self-defense. Yes, innocent people will die. Innocent people have already died. But if we don't take responsibility for our own safety, and do something about it now, many, many more innocent people will die. If Neville Chamberlain had accepted this responsibility, Hitler may very well have been stopped at the Polish border. If we had actually done something about Al Queda after the African embassy and U.S.S. Cole bombings, 9/11 might never have happened. If we don't do something about it now, we condem our own citizens to death.
United We Stand... (Score:3, Interesting)
Today more than ever should be a day where we realize that united we stand, divided we fall.
Not as a nation, not as a religious group, not as a terrorist organization.
Today we need to stand together as human beings.
We all live on this planet together and if we can learn to live together in peace, man to man, woman to woman, country to country, religion to religion, then there is nothing that we can't achieve.
We are one house and a house divided cannot stand.
ted hennessey (Score:5, Insightful)
belmont high class of 1984
Harvard class of 88 (Cum Laude)
Kellog School of Business 93 (MBA)(Computer Science award)
Partner and Principal Consultant, Emergence Consulting, Lincoln Ma.
Ted was a member of the Hasty Pudding and co-wrote "Whiskey
Business", their show in 1989.
He was the musical coordinator for the "Special-K Review" at Kellog during his
time there.
Wife Melanie (My Sister)
Children Rachel, 6 and Matthew, almost 4
Parents Edward and Geraldine (Big Ted and Gerry) Hennessy (Belmont)
Sisters Sue and Kathy
Nephews and Nieces Sharon, 10, Megan (my Daughter), 10, Jimmy, 8, Timmy, 4 and
Patrick, 18 Mos.
Ted was smart, funny, honest, friendly, bald and allergic to cats.
Ted played Guitar (and bass and 12 string). he had a small home recording
studio in his office where he would compose and record original music.
At family get togethers, he would gather the kids and play "Wild Thing" while
the kids sang along.
His and My Sister's favorite movie to watch together was "The Princess Bride"
He was a Geek. Just last week he setup DSL and 802.11b networking in his house.
He travelled 3 days a week, and to compensate for being away so much he devoted
all of his remaining time to his family.
every friday was date night with my sister.
every saturday was spent with the kids at a museum, aquarium, zoo or nature
park.
My Sister always dreamed of marrying Prince Charming and being a stay-at-home
mommy.
until one year ago today, all her dreams had come true.
Re:ted hennessey (Score:4, Informative)
should read, Just the last week before he died, not just last week.
sorry,
Don't Consume. Remember. (Score:3, Insightful)
Offer your own remembrance. Pay your own respects. You have plenty of options:
- Sit in silence.
- Pray.
- Visit a local park or scenic overlook. Think about what makes our nation great.
- Call your family; tell them you love them.
- Donate time to a local charity.
- Have a conversation with friends or co-workers.
- Write your thoughts down.
Be a true patriot--use your own mind and your own soul to remember this day. Avoid simply soaking in saccharine, ratings-oriented, commercial-laced media programming; you will gain nothing from it.What we must not forget... (Score:3, Insightful)
I couldn't come up with the questions as succinctly and beautifully as Honorable Representative Dr. Ron Paul did when he gave his collegues in Congress a speech yesterday, 9/10/2002. The questions are here [lewrockwell.com].
If you wish for true freedom, be the first the denounce tyranny. Join the liberarians.
A dad's view. (Score:5, Insightful)
No Offense (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't want a moment of silence; I'd like silence on the subject for a while; completely.
Re:No Offense (Score:4, Insightful)
Dude, if you're sick of hearing it, turn off CNN.
And just because you were in one of the towers doesn't mean you're the only one who has any right to grief. A lot of folks didn't make it out of the towers--or the Pentagon, for that matter. A lot of families will never be able to "move on."
Reflect on the fact that you were lucky a year ago so that you could have your hissyfit today. Then STFU and let people grieve for the folks who weren't so lucky.
None taken, but.... (Score:3, Insightful)
There are always going to be jerks who try to profit off the emotions of others. Live with it. That doesn't mean that the memorials are worthless. It's a milestone for us to examine how the event changed us and decide if we like what we find.
Ben
Best media coverage (Score:5, Informative)
For your best media coverage in the US, please turn to listener supported NPR [npr.org]. Here in Austin, TX, I have the impression that Clearchannel is taking a day to build a brand name. NPR is doing what they always do, trying to represent as best as they can the events that happen.
Save bandwidth. Listen to the radio. Or, if you're at work and can't get radio reception (like me), their live program stream is available in Quicktime [npr.org], Real [npr.org], or Windows Media [npr.org]. Politics aside, most people's computers can handle one of those programs.
Their online coverage is available here [npr.org], and their program schedule is here [npr.org]. Please note that all times are in Eastern time.
my suggestion for today (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure lots of people will do different things today as a reaction to what happened, but this is just my opinion. I'm not saying it's for everybody.
Sep 11 For Me (Score:5, Interesting)
I felt like a zombie for the next few days. All of Slashdot's team worked together to update stories and struggle against traffic that spiked to 3 times our usual peaks. Spare boxes were stolen for the cause and brought online. Meanwhile we did our best to make sense of what was happening along with everyone else.
I'm still very proud of how we handled our tiny share of that day and the aftermath. I know that what we did helped some. And I seriously feel honored that I was able to help.
I've actually been on edge all week knowing that this story was going to be posted on Slashdot. It forced me to reread much of our original coverage. It forced me to relive those frantic first minutes, and the hours, days, and weeks that followed it.
I hope this story manages to help some others too. It has already helped me.
It has only been one year (Score:3, Interesting)
I purchased a red/white/blue ribbon from a fireman at a stoplight just a few days after the attack, and it is still on my car antenna, albeit a bit dirtier now. I don't need to wear red white and blue to work today, even though it was "suggested". I don't need some kind of mandated or suggested sign of solidarity.
I was really surprised at how soon Americans went back to their daily lives. Saddened, really. It wasn't long before I heard my first Bin Laden joke, or was emailed pictures of him with a building going up his butt, or saw a Tshirt with a target on his face. I was amazed, but not really surprised, at how quickly good ol' Americans returned to their stupid, over the top, to the EXTREME! ways. It was nice to see a flag on everyone's car. It was sad to see some cars with 30 flags on them. It was nice to see sentiments of freedom, sad to see such bravado and machismo. I kid you not, someone near where I work painted their house red, white, and blue, with big hand painted letters phrase "Justice will prevail".
Sometimes I am very proud to be an American, but sadly sometimes I am a little embarassed. Today, I am going to be proud. Proud of the fact that we do enjoy freedoms in this country. That we try to offer it to everyone. Even if it means that you can act like an ass sometimes. That we have clean water to drink, and plenty of food to eat. That I have a beautiful wife of 3 months. Sad that corporations are so greedy and controlling, and that money is such a driving force. Sad that so many people lost their lives because of ignorance and fear. Hope - that we can all get beyond what happened a year ago, and what atrocities happen every single day on this planet. If there is a God, may she bless us all.
I remember the words of Kahlil Gibran.. (Score:4)
And he said:
You would know the secret of death.
But how shall you find it unless you seek it in the heart of life?
The owl whose night-bound eyes are blind unto the day cannot unveil the mystery of light.
If you would indeed behold the spirit of death, open your heart wide unto the body of life.
For life and death are one, even as the river and the sea are one.
In the depth of your hopes and desires lies your silent knowledge of the beyond;
And like seeds dreaming beneath the snow your heart dreams of spring.
Trust the dreams, for in them is hidden the gate to eternity.
Your fear of death is but the trembling of the shepherd when he stands before the king whose hand is to be laid upon him in honour.
Is the sheered not joyful beneath his trembling, that he shall wear the mark of the king?
Yet is he not more mindful of his trembling?
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun?
And what is to cease breathing, but to free the breath from its restless tides, that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered?
Only when you drink form the river of silence shall you indeed sing.
And when you have reached the mountain top, then you shall begin to climb.
And when the earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance.
my photo tribute (Score:3, Interesting)
My photos are here [plocp.com]
also Here is New York [hereisnewyork.com] has many good photos as well.
I honestly cant watch any of the footage (Score:4, Interesting)
And I said it last year and I'll say it again this year... I'm still really pissed off about those palistineans dancing in the streets with joy while downtown Manhattan was busy getting covered in 2 inches of soot.
I don't know about you.. (Score:4, Insightful)
One thing that I don't like which has come out of this is how President Bush is pushing his agenda on regime change in Iraq. He has not stepped forward with any kind of reassurance which will lead me to believe that a regime change should be possible. Is President Bush not worried about "blowback", which is what happened when we helped the mujahadeen in Afghanistan when they were fighting the Russian army. I can easily see some major "blowback" happening to the United States in the coming future if we are not careful and think ahead.
Never Forget.
The Primary Civil Right (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't forget this when you go out and cry, "My civil rights are diminished...."
Life means, we have a right to be secure. It's the job of our govt. to enforce this right.
Liberty is second to life but above all others. What kind of liberty does a dead-man enjoy?
Happiness is third. I can't be that happy if I have to worry about terrorism killing a loved one and I'm not free (liberated).
All the other Civil Rights pale in comparison Life, liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. They are merely derived from these three. They're hardly even honorable mentions compared to these three, but I'll mention some of them, (Privacy, Speech, Association, Expression, Religion).
That's what I'm thinking about and I'm also reflecting on this question.
What am I willing to die for?
Not much as I'm a coward (though not anonymous).
I think, however, I'm willing to die for my family. Hopefully, I'll never have the chance to prove this.
With that said, I'm in awe at our armed servicemen. I find in inconceivable that they are willing to die for me. They deserve my greatest respect.
Bleh. (Score:5, Insightful)
All of this memorial stuff is getting very overdone though...
Where were you on Jan 26, 2001? Do you remember any news that happened that day at all?
On that date, an earthquake hit India, leaving 13,000 people dead.
thirteen thousand. More than four times the amount killed in the World Trade Center. Think about that for a minute. How much coverage of it did you see on CNN? Maybe a day?
We've been hearing about this same story (Even giving it a catchy title) for an entire year now. How about a sense of perspective, folks?
Re:Bleh. (Score:5, Insightful)
This must be posted as AC (Score:5, Insightful)
a) Towelhead
b) Go back to your cave, what you do on our (site,chat etc)
c) Nuke the mideast
d) You stink
Also protecting my rights and trying to tell the truth, I got banned in favour of americans.
any many more. As I don't consider myself muslim, and tell about my habits like beer drinking, bars etc... I really started to wonder what a "real" muslim would feel.
Bin Laden's plot was exactly that. To make people discriminated, to start a civilization war...
He... Susceeded...
RIP to 3000 people who died in WTC. RIP to millions of them if this evil plan works good (!). Don't forget, the suckers who crashed planes into WTC&Pentagon were uneducated ones, they were brainwashed to ignore the most powerful insict even, life. Why act like them?
I'll never forget Slashdot on that day (Score:3, Interesting)
My eyes are watering as I type this - it's coming back a little too clearly. I'll never forget that day, though, when I learned exactly how big our community is, and how close it can be.
God bless all of you today. Hug someone today and tell them that you love them. Be with family. Live to post another day.
Schedule of NYC Events (Score:3, Informative)
on the WorldTradeAftermath.com [worldtradeaftermath.com] site.
Best wishes to you and yours, today and throughout the week.
Regards,
John
One request (Score:5, Interesting)
I won't ask that you give up your rights quietly because 9/11 shows that those rights will be our downfall if we continue to have them. I won't and I don't buy that.
I won't ask that you give up fighting because 9/11 shows that nothing can be solved by war, and that only peace will succeed in making the world a safer place. Far better and more righteous people than I have tried to end war and have failed miserably.
I won't ask you to rise up against the US government for its brutality and evil around the world that caused us to be attacked. Every other nation is just as evil, and has just as horrifying skeletons in their closet. America is just happening now. No amount of wrong done excuses what the hijackers, and those who helped plan and fund the hijacking did.
I won't ask you to condemn or absolve Muslims as a group for the actions and beliefs of some that called themselves Muslim.
I won't try to convince you that the lives of those murdered were in any way more or less important than the lives of Israelis killed in suicide bombings, the lives of Palestinians killed by Israeli solders and civillians, the lives of Vietnamese women and children murdered by American soldiers at the Mi Lai Massacre, those that died when nuclear weapons were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, those that died at the Battle of Pearl Harbor, or any other life lost. They aren't. A life is a life, whomever's it is.
All I ask is that you remember the dead. In the end, that's the best any of us can hope for after we die in this world. No amount of war or peace will bring them back to life. Whatever existence is or isn't waiting after life ends, memory is all that is left of the person in this world. Remember the dead, and be glad you are alive, because it could have been you on those planes, in the World Trade Towers, or the Pentagon. Remember the families and friends and their loss, because it could have been your friend, or brother, or sister, or mother, or father who died that day. Remember their loss and throw a party, and hang out, get drunk, play touch football, talk until the wee hours, play video games, watch movies, argue, or whatever you enjoy doing with them, because most of us will die before we're tired of this life.
In the end, what you do and what you believe doesn't matter to me, and I expect you feel the same about me. Just remember for those people, that went out of this life in a way few of us would choose to, and don't forget that we're all lucky to be alive.
That's it, I guess...
Sadness (Score:4, Insightful)
That in over 50 years since Israel was founded, their enemies still don't recognize them enough to even put them on their maps.
That Palestinian children are so brainwashed into hating Israel, scores of them have strapped bombs on themselves in order to blow themselves up as well as many Israeli citizens as they can take out.
That Iraq is able to scoff at international law, kicking out the U.N inspectors and rebuilding their weapons of mass destruction [yahoo.com] while the rest of the world(except the U.S.) turns a blind eye.
The really sad thing is that when all is said and done, Palestine will end up with no more than they were already promised before the start of the infitada. The Taliban is gone, Al-Qaeda has been scattered to the wind, and Iraq will undoubtedly see a regime change. All that vehement hatred directed toward the U.S. and Israel, and what is it going to get them? Nothing, if not less than what they had before.
That is truly sad.
My take on this (Score:5, Insightful)
I live in New York. Last week I got an email from an old acquaintence ("Old aquaintance" translates to "sends me chain letters and won't stop") asking everyone on the list to pray for the dead and those who have lost. She also suggested that everyone drive with their headlights on today (Twin beams of light! Get it?!?). I normally ignore her, but on this one I snapped. Like a good portion of people in New York (I assume), the attacks affected me for two weeks. It was horrible to see the city shut down for a week - it seemed impossible. But life went on. I didn't lose anyone. I didn't didn't lose my job.
But people refused to let go - the media and politicians, specifically, as well as Americans who now use this as a way of explaining who we are as a nation. It's not denial on my part or anything - the actual attacks haven't affected me in any way, emotional or otherwise, in a little under a year.
The things that have affected me are things like the US PATRIOT act, Bush's rampant power-grab. So I emailed my friend back and told her to give $50 to the ACLU or the EFF. You want to help, fine, but prayer does absolutely nothing, and driving with your lights on is stupid. It's...painless. You're not pinching your budget, you're not donating time. Do something substantial.
I think our attitude (ok, mine) is summed up perfectly as this: We don't ever want to forget, but we don't want to be constantly reminded either.
It's not online yet but there's a wonderful article voicing this opinion much better than I can in this month's Harper's. I suggest you pick up a copy.
Triv
Saw one of the planes on my way to work that day. (Score:3, Interesting)
Heroes, victims, and Communication (Score:4, Informative)
2001, I want to talk about the difference between the victims onboard
the first three airliners and the heroes onboard flight 93. What was
the difference? Why did the people on flight 93 fight back? Why did
the people on the other planes just sit and die?
The answer comes down to communication and how knowledge forced the
passengers to change their survival strategy. Everyone wants to
live. Until 9/11/01 the best known strategy for surviving an airline
hijacking was to sit in your seat, cooperate with the hijackers, and
wait it out. That strategy worked because until 9/11/01 hijackers were
trying to get hostages to trade for concessions and publicity. But,
that changed on 9/11/01. On that day the hijackers wanted airliners to
use as weapons. And, they counted on the passengers sitting in their
seats and being cooperative to allow the plan to work.
On flight 93, the passengers fought back. Why? Because they knew that
three other hijacked airliners had been used as weapons and everyone
on board them had died. When they knew they were onboard a weapon
their survival strategy changed and the scope of their survival
strategy also changed. Their choices no longer affected only their own
lives. Now, theei actions also affected the lives of hundreds or thousands
of people on the ground.
Given the choice of sitting quietly in their seats and waiting for
death or fighting and having a chance to live, they chose to fight for
their lives and the lives of the people on the ground. They knew that
if they won they would live and so would an unknown number of people
on the ground who were targeted by the weapon they were flying on. They
also knew that they could die and still save people on the ground. At
that point the correct thing to do, the moral thing to do, the action
that saved the most lives, was to fight. They fought.
We that given the same choice many people through
out history chose to do nothing and died as cowards and victims. Those
who chose to fight we deservedly call heroes.
But all that misses the whole point. The reason that the heroes of
flight 93 fought is that they knew they had to fight or die. They knew
because there was an air to ground phone on the back of the chair in
front of them and they used them to find out what was going on. It was
free, unregulated, communication that made the difference. It was that
basic freedom to communicate that let them know they needed to
fight. It was that same that let us know they did fight. It was their right to be
informed that let them become heroes.
As people who use the Internet, the most free and open communication
media every developed, we are honor bound to fight. To fight any
attempt to reduce the freedom to communicate. To fight to spread the
right of freedom of information and communication to everyone in the
world.
Flight 93 proved to the world that free people given accurate
knowledge of their situation will make heroic choices and take heroic
actions. Are we heroes who can make the same choices? Will we fight to
protect and extend the right to communicate that allowed the heroes of
flight 93 to become heroes?
I hope so. I believe so. Let's roll.
Stonewolf
Here's how it works: (Score:4, Insightful)
including the world bank, IMF, WTO, etc.) systematically oppress,
murder and enslave entire countries full of innocent people.
- We install our own dictatorships in these countries (e.g. Indonesia,
Iraq, etc.) while parcelling up their resources among 1st-world
megacorporations, many of which have larger operating budgets than
entire countries.
- We force these countries to accept "free trade", meaning we make
them remove all import tarriffs, and then flood their economy with
cheap products and staple foods. Just like when a Wal-Mart moves in
next door, the local artisans/farmers cannot compete, and they and
their children must give up the farm and move into the city to work
for subsistence wages under inhumane conditions in factories for
Gap, Nike, etc.
- Anyone who tries to resist this is called a "communist" (or maybe
now they'll be called an "Al Qaeda sympathizer") and is subject to
imprisonment, torture, and murder. These are people who've somehow
gotten the crazy idea that a country's natural resources might
actually be used to benefit its *own* citizens. They don't realize
that their lot in life is to shut up and be cheap labor.
- We force these countries to take out massive loans to buy our
imported goods--loans they will never be able to repay.
- In addition to providing the capital for the loans, U.S. taxpayers
money goes into "aid packages" for these now destitute countries.
The aid packages are earmarked for buying food and goods from
western megacorporations. This is another way in which the system
works to channel our money to the corporations.
- If anyone gets out of line, we don't have a problem using weapons of
mass distruction against their citizens (a million people have died
radiation-related deaths in Iraq since 1991 because we rained
thousands of tons of depleted uranium bombs and shells over the
whole southern half of the country). After all, making us
taxpayers support a massive military system (of historically
unprecented size) is another major way in which the system feeds our
money to the industrial complex.
- On 9/11, some assholes out there (we don't have the monopoly on
evil) manage to succeed in attacking the monetary system that rules
the world. Over 3000 "collateral" casualties also result.
- The response? Use this as a great excuse to (a) remove some more
civil liberties from us (an educated, free-thinking populace is the
*real* enemy of tyranny), and also (b) channel more of our money
into our military machine.
- Anyone who tries to point out any of the above is basically called a
traitor. After all, "you're either with us or against us". As if
even trying to understand what's going on is treasonous!
If you are intrigued by any of this and want to investigate for
yourself (don't believe me--I'm just regurgitating this stuff), you
might like to look at John Pilger's new book "The New Rulers of the
World", or any of his earlier stuff. Also, the copious writings of
Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, and even Gore Vidal are great places to
start.
If you are unwilling to open your eyes, you'll probably just call me a
"communist" or an "Al Queda sympathizer" (I am neither). While it
shouldn't be necessary, I nevertheless feel compelled to stress that I
do not condone the 9/11 attacks, nor do I think the people killed on
that day "deserved to die", or that the terrorists were justified in
doing it. I also think that it was counterproductive to their cause,
as all violence is. I just wish people would be willing to see that
we ourselves have been, and are again contemplating, waging extended
campaigns of violence in the world that dwarf the events of 9/11. We
still have a chance to change our ways.
Re:Here's how it works: (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I thought, if there will be a "news" site... (Score:5, Insightful)
A year ago,
Re:.... [all's quiet] (Score:5, Insightful)
Lets us also mourn the freedoms lost to the average law abiding citizen around the world.
Moment of silence from rhetoric (Score:3, Insightful)
>for the future iraq victims >for everyone that has ever died through the >hands of injustice, opression, agression and >that old capitalist tool: imperialism.
Darnit, why does everyone on Slashdot feel like they always have to pile on the political rhetoric thick and high no matter what the occasion. Can't we just take one day to drop the Right vs. Left crap and mourn for the dead?
I'm ashamed at this site sometimes, especially looking back at many of the high scoring posts from 9/11 that basically said we got what we deserved. Those women and men, mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, just trying to mind their own business and go to work did not deserve to die a fiery death that day. Nor do they deserve to have their rememberance used as a launching point for cheap political attacks.
Brian EllenbergerRe:you forgot (Score:3, Interesting)
I would rather get rid of him now than wait 5 years when a missile is in the air and we all say, "damn, I guess he really did have a nuke."
www.wherewereyou.org (Score:3, Interesting)
I discovered the site about a month and a half ago, and the posts are mostly interesting glimpses of other people's lives as feces met fan blades on America's Bad Day. I revisit the site every few days to read the newest posts, and found that posting my own account of where I was and what I did and felt, was oddly therapeutic.
~Philly
Re:Hats off to the U.S.A. (Score:3, Insightful)
What kind of teacher cuts off the ability of a kid to buy lunch to the point of sever mental weakness and then installs a mind control device that has the kid willingly giving up 40% of his property and income until the kid revolts against the device and gives the teacher a small flick. Then when another kid attacks the previously controlled kid because of his weakened state, what kind of teacher reacts to this situation by selling needed supplies and giving a credit card to the attacking kid while selling brass knuckles to the disoriented kid in an attempt to make the teacher like them.
Really, this is a terrible analogy, but still no teacher I know acts this way. It sounds more like organized crime to me.
Wearing your tinfoil hat again? (Score:3, Insightful)
The US may of been guilty of environmental disasters in the past, but US industries are amongst the cleanest in the world. You can't even kill yourself in your garage w/ a car that meets CURRENT emission standards (not the insane ones that some people would like to impose)
And what EXACTLY is wrong w/ genetically modified food? In the case of Argentina, it was a patent issue (which is the subject of a whole other argument and a whole other rant) and not the fact that it was genetically modified food...
Oops, wait, I'm at work... shouldn't be ranting on
Re:Bully or Teacher? (Score:3, Insightful)
I wrote a comment to this, but to save space on this server I will only post a link to it. I don't agree with the above poster. But I will let the details of this be presented by my diary entry. Comments welcome here or there.
I believe that your efforts to "save space" on this server are really just a ploy to profit from this tragedy by drumming up hits for your own site, so I choose not to follow your link. I might look tomorrow.
Re:Terrorism? (Score:4, Insightful)
The WTC attacks were acts of terrorism. And unlike a single plane crashing in tokyo (which one would assume is not being piloted by terrorists) the WTC attacks involved 4 planes intentionaly flown off course.
As for millitary vs terrorism, even if you buy your definitions, what about all the civilians on the planes themselves? Or the civilians in the streets below? Are those also legitamte military targets?