Europe Adding RFID Tags to Euro Currency 449
An EETimes article a few days ago reports that the European Central Bank is planning to add RFID tags to euro bank notes. This would allow each bill to be tracked whenever it is used, and if the chip includes writable memory, to even record its own history.
Smart Money... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Smart Money... (Score:4, Insightful)
a.) Street criminals
b.) Their brethren in Southern State Highway Patrols who rake in more money from non-trial seziure than from state budget allowances. Now we go from Driving While Black to Driving While Black with > $200.
Re:Smart Money... (Score:2, Interesting)
The things keeping this technology out of paper currency currently are:
1. Cost
2. Chip size (large chip = more info stored = higher cost
3. manufacturing process (current chips are too large and too thick and therefore can't stand the kind of abuse money goes through)
It's got two primary uses as well - yes, to track counterfeiters, but more so to prevent counterfeiters for even trying.It's preventative.
I think it'd be kinda interesting to take a bill and track exactly where it's been and how far it's travelled, personal freedom issues aside.
Besides, they say this tech won't be even close to available till 2005. So quit worrying.
Triv
Re:Smart Money... (Score:2)
That's three years from now. I expect to be alive in three years and expect to still value my privacy and personal freedom. And I *would* like to have at least one form of payment that is strictly anonymous-- i.e. cash. If this does away with that, even for mostly good intentions, I think we should all be afraid. Of course, I'm an American, so I've got bigger worries than this generally....
Re:Smart Money... (Score:2)
Not that I particularly like the idea, just pointing out the facts.
Re:Smart Money... (Score:2, Insightful)
I suspect that you would be on the receiving end of some "interest" from the local taxation authorities if your bartering became too..*ahem* visible.
Sad but true.
Re:Smart Money... (Score:2)
Uh? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, only if the counterfiters are stupid enough to put real chips in their fake money...
Re:Smart Money... (Score:3, Interesting)
Zeno
oh well - maybe lead to ecash (Score:2)
And yes, that's a pretty poor silver lining.
I wonder if they'll declare the currency worthless if you were to tear out the chip (or otherwise fry it - how possible is that?)
Re:oh well - maybe lead to ecash (Score:3, Funny)
Semi-OT, but would anyone have ideas on how to construct a money-tag-zapper on a student's budget?
Re:oh well - maybe lead to ecash (Score:2)
I'm assuming that change machines, vending machines, etc. would use the RFID chip to determine whether or not the bill was valid (they currently optically determine this?). But then a bill gone past its lifetime, undergone a lot of physical stress, or had the RFID chip rendered useless some other way would be valueless. Isn't currency supposed to be resilient? If there is a tear in my good 'ol USA $, it's still worth the same as before it was torn (as long as it's not torn apart
Re:oh well - maybe lead to ecash (Score:2)
Re:oh well - maybe lead to ecash (Score:2)
Re:oh well - maybe lead to ecash (Score:5, Funny)
The European Federal Bank commented recently that a low-orbital nuclear explosion
would not only wreck all cash dispensers, computers and electric razors for 5000 miles around, it would also rob 300 million of europeans of their pocket change.
Cautious people are already storing water and food supplies.
Tom's Hardware ran a video showing a 50 euros note frying in flames due to massive overclocking ( up to 500 euros ) after the thermal dump was removed.
Re:oh well - maybe lead to ecash (Score:5, Insightful)
Further testing by AMD showed that overclocking a 50 euro note to 100 euros and then removing the 1 euro coin (acting as the heat sink) would simply cause the 50 euro note to fail to respond, but it was not permanently damaged.
Meanwhile, a group from Norway has announced a Linux port to the 500 euro note. Slashdot trolls have announced they can not afford to make beowulf clusters of these notes.
John
Re:oh well - maybe lead to ecash (Score:3, Funny)
ROTFL !!
:)
In recent news, the British Parliament presented the new series of bank notes.
According to Lord Smith, a 10 PoundXP note will have a higher buying power than
a 10 euro note.
The European Federal bank introduces the 50 euro note as a response.
Richard Stallman calls to the European Bank to free the printing process for bank notes.
"People need Free Money, it's in the nature of Man."
Wired ran an interview of Craig Mundie: "Euros are anti-American. In the interest of American businesses and consumers, euros shouldn't be allowed as a currency inside the US."
Re:oh well - maybe lead to ecash (Score:2)
Re:oh well - maybe lead to ecash (Score:2)
This ZDNet story [zdnet.com] contains information on creating a H.E.R.F. (High Energy Radio Frequency) gun.
This article was picked up and discussed on Slashdot here [slashdot.org].
Re:oh well - maybe lead to ecash (Score:2)
Velocity of money? (Score:5, Interesting)
However I don't think that the government really needs to know where it's money has been... This seems a little intrusive into individuals lives.
Re:Velocity of money? (Score:2, Informative)
Maybe I should just start stealing everything I need so I won't be tracable through my money.
Re:Velocity of money? (Score:3, Funny)
Well, the velocity of a European banknote anyways, but what about African banknotes?
Privacy concerns? (Score:4, Interesting)
Privacy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Privacy (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Privacy (Score:2)
Re:Privacy (Score:2)
So, a store owner that is on his way to the royal bank doesn't have to worry about the people around him that could find out and mug him.
I really think that the money should just emit a signal up to the clouds, like the bat signal or something, when the person carrying the money is in trouble. Now, the obvious market is just lead wallets!
Re:Privacy (Score:2)
What's in my wallet is my business.
Exactly why many people use cash. If everyone knew how much loot you had in your wallet, then you wouldn't be able to negotiate prices. Not to mention that anyone closing their store at night, and taking the cash register deposits to the bank would instantly become targets.
I can see how this stupid move would spell a quick end for any currency.
Re:Privacy (Score:2)
Re:Privacy (Score:2)
Re:Privacy (Score:2)
Re:Privacy (Score:2)
this is the kind of thing ... (Score:2, Interesting)
people need to hide their vices. therefore they need (untraceable) cash.
once again, porn and drugs will withstand the onslaught of governmental interference.
Easily defeated (Score:2)
the ONLY way to remove counterfits and "illegal activities" is to go to a credit only system but then people will find ways around that too.
I Knew It! (Score:2)
Virg
durability (Score:5, Informative)
I wonder how they would survive spin, wash, dry, and iron cycles. or drying in a microwave oven.
Their has got to be a wide range of applications that would ruin the chips. I can see civil rights volunteers subotaging currency in the safety of their homes, a sort of grassroots thing.
the thousand lira notes in italy used to have a thin silver wire embedded in them. It was really easy to pull those out.
Re:durability - spin/wash/dry no problem (Score:2)
Oh look, I went searching for a link, and even found one on slashdot [slashdot.org]
Re:durability (Score:2)
Re:durability (Score:2)
> with hundreds of dollars (or Euros, or what-
> have-you) in them. I try to keep a better track
> on my high value bills.
I think he had in mind someone doing it on
purpose in order to destroy the chip.
Give a whole new meaning to the phrase
"money laundering", doesn't it?
Chris Mattern
Nice try (Score:2, Informative)
Unfortunately, not practical right now (Score:3, Insightful)
All security measures will be defeated. Besides, crime is becoming more "virtual" - that is, people would rather break an unpatched IIS server and nab 10,000 credit card numbers than try to counterfeit $10,000,000.
Ill-thought scheme (Score:2)
Privact implications (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Privacy implications (Score:2, Interesting)
Writable memory? (Score:2)
If someone is tech-savvy enough to hack the on-chip filesystem and change the path that piece of currency followed, then it wouldn't make a lick of difference where the cash has been. If they're tracking it at airports, train stations, or even every doorway, then a centralized database can handle the data mining without worrying about someone changing the non-static ID tags.
Although, increasing the price of currency production with useless features is pretty helpful if you plan on printing huge quantities of it... so watch out.
shoots and ladders (Score:2)
Since I'm going to guess that the RF in RFID means radio frequency, how long before your average pick pocket/mugger is using a detection device see just how much is in your wallet. An rightly so, I think that the store owner needs not know what's in my wallet either as I already can't stand it when they try to sell you up, imagine how much harder they will try if they can see how much your holding on you.
Now, onto the hurdles. I think they will have a hard time getting this to work since things like water, micro-wave emmissions, the crushing force of being sat on in a wallet are all factors that could destroy an RF device. Top that off with the need for a system that can read that signal while also keeping it secure so that average criminal's can't use it for thier own needs.
Another question would be, how much will this technology cost per bill and will it have an effect on the bills worth? While Europe seems to be very heavy in the way of tracking it's people (camera's everywhere) I think this is one way that will give them nothing but fits.
Existing paper currency is not anonymous (Score:5, Insightful)
How many times do they need to find bills from your ATM withdrawl in the pot dealer's deposit bag before they knock on your door?
This idea was written up at DEC SRC years ago if I am not mistaken.
If mail is not anonymous, paper currency is not (Score:2)
I'd suggest tracking money is even more interesting the tracking mail to many in a position of power. Are you all sure it isn't already happening -- there is little incentive to tell anyone.
Re:Existing paper currency is not anonymous (Score:2)
Re:Existing paper currency is not anonymous (Score:2, Interesting)
The US federal government is spending millions a year to have a certain warehouse guarded, and has been doing so for the last 27 years. The warehouse holds worthless gas rationning vouchers printed during the 1973 energy crisis.
Why are they guarded, even though they are worthless? Because they happen to have George W.'s face printed on them, and as such, they register as US $1.00 bills when read by bill readers...
Re:Existing paper currency is not anonymous (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Existing paper currency is not anonymous (Score:4, Insightful)
> worthless? Because they happen to have George
> W.'s face printed on them, and as such, they
> register as US $1.00 bills when read by bill
> readers...
Took me a couple of seconds to figure out exactly
what you meant--at first I thought you were saying
they had George W. Bush's face on them, which made
no sense.
In any case, it sounds totally bogus. Why not
simply incinerate the stuff? Urban legend.
Chris Mattern
Re:Existing paper currency is not anonymous (Score:2)
destroy the vouchers?
Not that the government doesn't do plenty of
nonsensical things, but I wouldn't repeat your
story as fact before seeing some documentation
of it.
Oh Boy! (Score:2)
"The Rotten Heart of Europe" (Score:2, Interesting)
Attempting to track the flow of currency is fully in line with your typical French bureaucrat's view that all good comes from the state, and that the state must be in charge of all aspects of life.
IMHO, the voters of the UK, Denmark, and Sweden are going to look very smart in the very near future.
Money Abuse Testing (Score:2)
Like for the US dollar, a machine rolls up the money into a very tight cylinder, then crushes it flat. The holograms that were being tested were totally destroyed by this test, so they don't appear on US money.
Re:Money Abuse Testing (Score:2)
RFID basics (Score:5, Informative)
So if the coil breaks at a single point? (Score:2)
Kjella
Re:So if the coil breaks at a single point? (Score:2)
Another point I have not seen stated around here is the fact that the implementation will not become reality before 2005 for cost reasons. And for the very same reason only notes with a high value (they talk about 200+ which exchanges to a little less thatn $180 or something). So you could just get small notes from the cashier.
Also, it is a small coil, there can't be too much transmission power. Maybe it would work to have the money wrapped in tinfoil before you can exchange it for smaller notes.
nothing new, just in currency (Score:5, Informative)
The coil is 'read' by emmitting a radio signal and reading the reflected frequency from the coil. This makes the currency immune to all forms of defacing short of cutting the coil out of the currency or cutting it in half. If the bank was smart, the coil spans the entire currency so it's impossible to complete remove it. It can be read from up to twenty feet away. However, it's difficult to discern different signatures or how many signatures there are when the coils are in close proximity to each other.
And no, microwaves will only serve to ignite your currency. But hey, if you've got money to burn, go for it, honey.
Re:nothing new, just in currency (Score:5, Informative)
It's also defeated easily by wrapping other foil around the primary strip/coil/etc. - as silly as it sounds, if you wrapped your wallet with aluminum foil, it'd be as good as scrambled.
Finally, tracking systems break pretty fast. Go to the ATM, get some Euro notes that now belong to "you". Go to lunch with a friend and have him pay by check, credit, whatever and you pay him in cash. That's an untrackable transaction. These kinds of transactions happen constantly, and there's no way to trace them. (Yes, get paranoid - do the above enough with one person and They will figure out that You and Him are friends, and then They will watch both of You. When you want to step back to reality, let me know).
Didn't this kind of thing come up when the US Treasury started adding magstripes to $100, $50, and $20 bills?
Re:nothing new, just in currency (Score:3, Insightful)
I think antitheft tags use the etched circuit alone. This will echo a signal from a scanner several feet away to tell that a not-paid-for item is walking out the door. The tags aren't unique, but it's not necessary to know _which_ item. If anti-counterfeiting was the sole concern, etched circuits would be nearly as good as a chip-based circuit, and a whole lot cheaper. Each denomination would be tuned differently (so if you bleached a 1 Euro bill and re-printed it as a 100, the scanner would still see it as a 1). Scanners would start at about $50. The biggest counterfeiting threat lately has not been the few "professionals" (they get caught), but thousands of amateurs who get past that bad time before payday by a little work with a color scanner and printer -- it's not real good, but it will get past anyone who doesn't look too close or take time to really feel the paper, or hold it up to the light to check for watermarks and special threads woven in -- so there's about 1% chance a minimum wage clerk or a busy bartender will catch a funny 20 in the US. Any sort of RFID would stop these amateurs.
Professional counterfeiters are rare and usually spend most of their lives in prison because anyone who can etch printing plates, print the money, and sell it, and doesn't take those skills to a legitimate job is either nuts or extraordinarily greedy. So they'll build the business up until the distribution end gets too big, someone gets caught, and turns in others. It might take the T-men a few years, but they persist until the printer is doing 10 to 20, if he's lucky and whatever mobsters are involved don't make sure he won't be around to testify against them.
With or without chips, RFID wouldn't entirely put the pros out of business, but it would make things harder for most of them. Some already have "connections" wherever the paper for currency is made, and since the antenna, and chip if any, have to be added to the papermaking process, they'll get the RFID's too, but probably at double the cost. Those who somehow treat commercially available paper to make it pass for currency paper would be out of business until they figured out how to make the RFID, take two pieces of very thin paper, bond it together with the antenna inside, and still somehow make it look and feel right -- sounds like years of work to me... And if there are any that make their own currency paper, now they have to learn _another_ skill.
Re:nothing new, just in currency (Score:2)
my Dollar's history... (Score:2, Funny)
2 Strippers garter
3 Strippers garter
4 Strippers garter
5 Strippers garter
6 Strippers garter
7 Strippers garter
8 Strippers garter
* End of History
Neat, unless you're paranoid (Score:2)
In theory this could make counterfeiting very difficult, or simply raise the stakes, as counterfeiters ply Central Bank employees for materials to counterfeit with. Still, with enough sophistication, merchants would be able to scan money and stop the bills quick. A possibility you wouldn't find in the US with all the whining merchants would put forth on increased costs of doing business, etc.
I wonder how well they'll survive a trip through the washer and dryer, though.
and now the last means for privacy is gone (Score:2)
Good thing the technology is not very practical at this point, and I doubt it's going to be implemented, as it is described in the article.
Unacceptable (Score:2)
Seriously though, does the government need to know that I spent the hundred euro note that I got from the bank at the widget store or whatever? Refuckindiculous. I guess those who want privacy will have to switch to prepaid visa cards, purchased with the change made from a fairly anonymous purchase (use a 500 euro note to buy some donuts or something?)
Re:Unacceptable (Score:3, Insightful)
And even if you're handling these kinds of bills, it's not easy to tie the bill's serial number to a particular person, and it's fairly easy to circumvent by trading it for somebody else's 500 Euro note.
Compare this with credit cards where every single transaction, no matter how small, is already logged in a database, with full details about the owner, product, place, date and time. How come those aren't "unacceptable" ?
I get tired of all those claims that the "government" is going to see what I buy in the store. Honestly, the government has better things to do that watch me buy a loaf of bread, a can of coke, and a magazine, when they don't even have enough detectives to solve a significant part of real crimes.
Re:Unacceptable (Score:2)
It's not a "loaf of bread" that worries us (Score:2)
How would you like to explain to your boss, or your wife, why the police came by to ask how money you withdrew from an ATM ended up in the possession of a drug dealer? Or a prostitute? History is absolutely clear on this: the "big fish" have the resources and motivation to bribe officials (or "trade" information for leniancy), it's the little guy who gets hit with 10-years-without-parole mandatory sentences or has their car (or house!) confiscated as "tainted"... and innocence is often no defense. With the "seizer gets the goods" laws, there's also clear evidence that many (not all) police deliberately target the weak for institutionalized theft - ask anyone who had their car confiscated on some southern interstates because they couldn't prove that the car (which does not have constitutional protection) was "innocent."
The stupidest thing is that these laws will have absolutely no impact on the low-level criminal activities. The *only* thing criminalization does is close the courts to people with small disputes, forcing them into big disputes. If a guy rips you off in a used car sale, you can haul him into court, possibly even file a criminal complaint. If you're ripped off in a drug deal of the same size, your options are to either absorb the loss (and be marked as an easy target for future abuse) or kill the bastard. Gee, is it any wonder why "low level drug dealer" and "dead" appear in the same sentence so much? Ditto "street walker" and "victim of sadistic mass-murderer"?
The proposal, today, is to only mark large bills. But it won't be long until the standard bill coming out of the ATM is marked (due to inflation and cheaper second-generation technology). Once the bills are marked and tracked, some grandstanding politician will be unable to resist the "get tough on street crime" temptation, esp. when data farming machines are powerful enough to track this information.
It will only catch the stupid drug user, john, etc., but what will the street find as a currency to replace it? I think most of us would prefer the occasional streetcorner transaction than, oh, a 2400% increase in petty burglaries because the street trade now uses small untracked items like CDs and the like.
Re:It's not a "loaf of bread" that worries us (Score:3, Interesting)
Drugs are often used as a medium of exchange, particularly where street prostitution is involved. (e.g. pussy is sold for crack.)
Now, given that your typical john doesn't have the capacity to make crack, we still have a supply problem, namely, where does John get his crack? He gets it from his dealer. But if the dealer won't take cash (or John doesn't want his trackable cash found on the dealer), what does John do?
John uses legal, but heavily-taxed, drugs - alcohol and tobacco - as currency. Smugglers make a living by moving goods from low-tax to high-tax jurisdictions, providing supply to John through local merchants.
As long as the corner store is stocked with smokes or booze (whether smuggled or not - smuggled smokes/booze simply afford the mob an additional profit opportunity at the start of the supply chain), John can legally purchase all the "tobaccscrip" or "boozescrip" he needs.
If John's lucky, he's got a hooker who's an alcoholic nicotine freak. If John's not so lucky, she's a crackhead or pothead, and he'll have to exchange tobaccscrip and boozescrip for crack or pot at the local drug dealer, before purchasing any pussy.
If the local mobster controls the flow of legal-but-smuggled goods (cigarettes, liquor), illegal goods (illegal drugs), and the prostitution, he can have an entire economy set up and running in no time.
Finally, remember that in the underground economy, some currencies literally do grow on trees.
John could, for instance, cut out the middlemen (and greatly drop his cost of pussy) in his drugs-for-pussy transactions by taking the additional risk associated with growing a plant or two of "hempscrip" in his back yard. Alternately, John could supply an organized-crime warez group with 0-day warez, pre-release MP3z, or various types of pr0n (whether legal or not).
Currency as we know it evolved from barter. If barter is required to sustain the underground economy, the underground economy may become less efficient -- but that won't end the underground economy. It'll merely provide (like any inefficient market does) those in the market with more opportunities for profit.
Where's George? (Score:2)
Privacy Issues: (Score:2)
And just in case anyone saw Mr. Show with Bob and David, no, they are not Ass pennies.
I really should get some sleep
This is nothing new.. (Score:3, Informative)
The scheme will only be used on large notes since those are most likely to be subject to forgery. Applying it to all notes would be to costly but will probably be possible in the future.
This is no secret project(as indicated by the article) since it has been in the news several times in Europe.
Not a project - just a feasibility study (Score:5, Informative)
RFID is just one of the technologies being examined. It has advantages as well as a pile of disadvantages that other have noted here. Certainly whilst you may spend 1 Euro to protect a 500 Euro note, even that is pretty expensive.
Although in the US, people like to use non-cash methods for large but legal sums, say for a car or a house, in may parts of the EU, people will make major purchases in cash, yes even houses and these people have their cash legally too! Well, some of them. Certainly, there are a lot of quite legitimate users of high value bills here.
The problem here is that counterfeit money costs the issuer. It certainly costs the Fed for all those dud greenbacks. However, no central banker likes to tell how much counterfeit money is being picked up (I have asked). WHther it costs enough that it justifies RFID tags is another matter.
The EU certainly likes to support domestic technology, i.e. Siemens and Phillips, but there are limits.
can ups ship me back in time? (Score:4, Insightful)
Crack (literally) (Score:3, Funny)
Locate chip, place bill on anvil. Place nail or chisel on chip. Strike nail or chisel with hammer. Repeat if necessary.
But will it be admissible as evidence in court? (Score:3, Insightful)
The moral of this story is that the system can't work until every point of currency exchange is surveilled electronically, which will effectively be never, which means the information will always be meaningless at best. The risk is making assumptions about the validity of the data (which I'm sure They will).
I wonder if... (Score:3, Funny)
Imagine that, you go to pay for something and the serial number has changed to "L337". Sheesh.
Re:I wonder if... (Score:2)
Knee-jerk privacy complaints? (Score:5, Insightful)
Come on. I've read five notable comments in this thread and they all say in effect "How can I disable this protection to prevent the government from spying on me?"
Yes, I am concerned about my privacy. I find it really painful that so many people have my phone number, my email address, and my home address. People send me offensive ads every day which I wish I could refuse without inviting more.
This said, why are people instantly opposed to money with copy protection? I have no objection to this money unless something goes severely wrong, for example:
The money requires me to input my name and address after acquiring it.
The money breaks if I don't take good care of it.
Retailers refuse to accept it because the copy protection is so burdensome.
The wierd thing is that existing money often has these problems. When I go to the bank and withdraw cash from my account, they ask me for my name and address on the withdrawal form. If I leave a twenty in the wash a few too many times, it might fall apart - sometimes you can get people to still take it, but often not. And most inexplicably, the new US $100 bill that has so many copy protection features on it - I can't use it anywhere! People simply refuse it and say "there's too many forgeries around." Isn't that odd?
If the ECB puts a 1k data chip on their money, and the money still works like normal money, I will encourage it.
Legal tender for all debts (Score:5, Interesting)
It's understandable that 7-11 may not always have change for my $1.99 purchase that I pay for with a $100 bill, but as long as I'm willing to let them keep the change, it seems there is no legal way for them to refuse to accept my bill.
Or have I missed something?
Not much different (Score:2)
One well-placed EMF discharge... (Score:4, Interesting)
Voluntary (Score:4, Insightful)
But seriously though, one of the benefits of using paper currency is its anonymity. I buy my copy of 2600 every quarter with plain cash, just because I"m ultra paranoid. Hard currency is used in ways that will boggle the mind, so its somewhat hard to believe the problems that would arrise from money tracking here in the US.
Its probably unconstitutional anyway.
Re:Voluntary (Score:2)
Hahahahaha.
I can see now. All of the euro governments are going to get together and force every little mere and pere shop to install RFID readers before they are allowed to accept the new Euros. Right.
Even if they did that, there still would be the problem of tying each bill with the person who spent it. Will you be required to "sign" each bill as you use it? I doubt it. What about the old bills in circualtion? The article states that this is at least 3 years away. You could hoard all of the remaining "anonymous" bills and use them.
Money Laundering?? (Score:2, Redundant)
History? (Score:5, Funny)
submitted this over a week ago (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Because of cost, this will be probably implemented first only in the larger denomination bills. (stated in the article)
2. The security model is flawed. The authentication process encrypts the serial number, so without the algorithm you can't tell the bill's denomination. (You can track the bills by the unique encrypted number, irregardless if you know the algorithm).
3. You put these two facts together, and the mere presence of an RFID bill in your pocket means you have at least ~USD$200. If you have 10 RFID bills, you've got at least $2000. Without bypassing the encryption, you can pick off the most worthwhile people to rob.
4. Fortuantly, these are readable only at a short distance (~12 inches), but two antennas by the bathroom door will scan a whole lot of people.
----------------
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Here are your recent submissions to Slashdot, and their status within the system:
2001-12-19 16:14:26 RFID in Euro Bank notes by 2005 (articles,money) (rejected)
Re:For large bills only.... (Score:2)
Re:For large bills only.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe I just don't have enough vices requiring anonymity...and those that do are free...
GTRacer
- C'mon McD's! Put in the debit terminals!
Re:Out of hand... (Score:5, Interesting)
Coins, if I am not mistaken, already cost more to mint than their value. Given inflation and the devaluation of the monetary units across the world over time, it should come as no surprise that the production cost of larger denominations of currency outpaces their face value.
The real trick is to look at how often a unit of currency changes hands, and how durable it is over time. This in combination with its face value will give some idea of the true cost and/or value of the physical currency note or coin.
If I could invent a paper bill that could withstand 50 years of travel, exchange, and (well, let's face it) abuse, that was incredibly rip, tear, and wear resistant, could withstand repeated exposure to water, moisture, solvents, and other environmental nasties, it might not matter as much if the production cost per unit were ten times as much as the face value.
Re:Alternative currencies could be the answer (Score:2)
I'll fix your computer if you fix my car.
Let's not forget good, old-fashioned gold...
I still think it would not be overly difficult to bring about a regional gold-backed currency. Companies might even do it.
The only impotant fact would be the gold content of the coin would have to be standardized.
1/20 oz, 1/10 oz, etc.
Prices would be in oz of gold... Yes, the value of an oz would fluctuate with the local market.. but it would be an interesting thing to do.
Re:how does this prevent laundering? (Score:2)
Not an LEO, eh? (Score:5, Interesting)
1.) The money doesn't "ping" or anything else. It's not self-powered at all. You need to pass it through an EM field to get it to respond. Developing an EM field of sufficient power to activate these chips such that they'd be able to return a signal more than ten feet would (A) destroy the chip and (B) kill all of your houseplants and (C) require a generator bigger than the patrol car.
2.) Drug money doesn't spend time "outside the legitimate banking system" at all. This is one of the main reasons why money laundering is so popular. Having boxes of cash is a nice thought, but most crime figures don't like having liquid assets like that because it's fragile, easy to steal (if Boss X has $100,000.00 in a safe it's right difficult to tell that his bodyguard is skimming C notes) and it draws attention.
3.) Having cash is not a warrantable offense. There are those who will tell you horror stories about being detained for having lots of cash, but if you ask all of them to leave except the ones who were detained on a warrant you'd be a lonely person. The police driving by the house would need a warrant to drive by and check (if it were possible; see number 1 above) as radio communications are protected from illegal search unless they're detectable to the general public.
4.) Assuming for a moment that 1, 2 and 3 above were by some miracle suspended, here's the rub. Radio waves don't generally pass through safes. So, you could put said cash in a safe, and it would be, well, safe. Hell, if you're really worried, you could put it in a bucket of water.
Remember, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean you're worth tracking.
Virg
Re:And their motives became crystal clear... (Score:2)
Most of your negative points (especially invalidation of currency) are ludicrous and most likely illegal. Do you really think that banks have the power to invalidate your money just because you have poor credit? (hmm....it seems that you don't have enough money, so we'll just invalidate the money you do have). regular consumer banks do not have that kind of power.
As for "standardizing" on the US dollar, that just counters your point of the benefits of trading amongst many nations. The US dollar is currently the most used currency on earth, but most western countries would never allow the US that much control over their ecconomies, esspecially when they already control so much of it(think mcdonalds and coke). A tracking chip on the currency is a pretty useless idea anyways. More and more transactions are being done electonically anyways.
I'm not saying the euro is all good, but its not all bad either. The only thing that surprises me about the euro is why some of the stronger economies there are joining it...especially Germany.
Re:And their motives became crystal clear... (Score:2)
Which crackhead modded this troll up as "Interesting"?
</flame>
Speculators and traders may make money on fluctuating exchange rates, but they don't generate any wealth. The wealth is generated by businesses that under the current system, don't have any good way to predict what their supplies will cost, or how much they'll be able to sell their finished product for. Both of these vary because of the actions of speculators and traders.
In fact, the only variable under their control is theur wages bill. Guess which is going to get squeezed when the speculators and traders decide to increase the costs of your supplies while decreaing the value of your finished product?
<counter-troll>
Of course, this wouldn't matter in the USA, because the USA is run for the benefit of corporations. The EU appears a little more concerned for the livelihoods of its citizens.
</counter-troll>
Re:And their motives became crystal clear... (Score:5, Insightful)
First of all: the Euro was not pushed by the banks. It was done by the governments.
Second: the European currencies have had fixed rates for a few years now and I still have to see any negative effect of that. The countries that are allowed to join in, have to have a very stable currency. Only fluctuation within a very small band was allowed. If a currency would fluctuate too much, the EMU would act upon by buying or selling the currency. It has been like this for many years now and so far this cooperation has only had benefits. In fact the system has even proven to work already waaay before we came up with the Euro. So why is a fixed currency not fair? If we decide we want to cooperate more, why not fix those rates? Or would you rather have a different currency in every state of the US? That would be more fair by your rules, wouldn't it.
Third: I don't see how the Euro allows any more control than the money we had before does. The cash is just the same, it only looks different and has a different value per unit. There is no additional tracking-system AT ALL. The banks don't get any additional control either, they only change Currency X into EURO and that's it. So what exactly are you talking about?
Next: in what way is the dollar any better than the Euro? Please give me some arguments before saying so. They're both just currencies. Money. Something to prevent us from having to trade cows for computers. It's nothing more than that. The ONLY reason why a currency would be any better, would be that it's value is more stable compared to the value of other currencies. Maybe the dollar is more stable (I don't believe it is, but I may be wrong). One thing I can tell you: the Euro is most certainly a lot more stable than 16 different independant currencies. So that would make the Euro better than all currencies we're using now here in the EU.
Last: What does the amount of civil rights organizations have to do with this? Are there really more of such organizations in the US (as compared to the EU)? Please give me some facts. And then think about why this could be....maybe they're simply needed more in the US?