Poor In Latin America Embrace Net's Promise 103
This fairly long story in The Washington Post tells how Internet access in Latin America is spreading more rapidly than anywhere else in the world, and not just among the well-to-do. According to the article, rural villagers and urban shantytown dwellers are connecting with the rest of the world, and this is giving some of them hopes and expectations they never had before. Is it possible that near-universal Internet access might do more in the long run than plumbing and other infrastructure improvements to help raise people in developing nations out of poverty?
How typically arrogant (Score:2)
Electricity, sanitation, water, food, and medical care are all necessities that we in the United States and the rest of the first world take for granted every single day that other not so fortunate nations do not have ready access to. I have yet to hear one subsistence farmer complain about his inability to gain wondrous knowledge from Internet sites such as Slashdot. I do hear about a lack of sanitary water to drink, much less to bathe, or food shortages due to corruption and infrastructural inefficiences causing famine. My parents grew up in 1940s Malaysia, and just thinking about the differences in our experiences makes me thank God that I was fortunate enough to be spared that.
Before you talk about the signs and wonders of the information revolution and how it's going to change the world, take a trip downtown and volunteer at the local John 3:16 to make a difference for someone today.
cybercafes (Score:2)
I hope it doesn't ruin some of the really beautiful rustic scenery [griffjon.com], tho.
Communication & Community (Score:1)
Will access to the net change the economies of these communities? I would not be to breathless about that. Maybe, but it will take time. And it will depend on a lot of problematic contributing factors such as political stability, freedom, and yes, basic resources like food and water. Web access may help spur education and help resourceful individuals. But it is no panacea. More like the party line phone that was once ubiquitous in our rural (and poor) communities many decades ago. Part of the infrastructure. Something that binds communities together and to the outside world. Good to have. But not a salvation.
Latin America Rapidly Embracing the Net (Score:5)
My fiance has family in El Salvador. They are part of the middle class there, something that had been very small in prior years, but is growing rapidly now that the US and USSR have stop paying people to kill each other in El Salvador.
One of her cousins works at Xerox in San Salvador, selling copiers, printers, faxes, all the equipment you need to run a modern business. Another cousin in El Salvador works for Teleglobe, and sells telecom and Internet. Soon there will be fiber optic running into El Salvador to replace the aging satellite Net infrastructure.
My fiance's mother uses Internet email to communicate with her family in El Salvador. It is much cheaper than voice telecom costs (which can be as high as $1/minute).
Driving down the streets of San Salvador, you can see roadside advertisements for various computer training classes.
And this is important, during the civil war, many poor people left the fields because of the danger, and went to the capital (San Salvador) to find jobs. At the time, the government was concerned with the war, and there were all kinds of nutty restrictions on industry. My fiance's mothers cousin who runs a plastic bag factory couldn't sell bags outside of El Salvador.
Now that the war is over, industry of all kinds are flourishing in El Salvador. Trade barriers set up by the government are coming down, and trade barriers erected by the US against El Salvador are (slowly) coming down as well.
Life expectancy at birth in 1999 was 70 years in El Salvador, and literacy is up to 71.5%. There is a long way to go there, but the Internet can help in many ways, ranging from education (such as Net connectivity at the Universidad de El Salvador) to helping industry. Even the government [casapres.gob.sv] is using it.
Privatization of the state controlled telecom company will also accelerate the improvement of El Salvador's telecom infrastructure that was badly damaged during the civil war.
Web kiosk in Chile (Score:1)
i'm a long time computer geek. i moved down here to chile to live on a beach, write [mindpixel.com], paint [mindpixel.com] and invent artificial consciousness [mindpixel.com].
i have started a project to put a free and very sturdy web kiosk in a small fishing village up the cost from the city of antofagasta where i live.
i think that it will make a big difference for the villagers to join the world community; to be able to sell their products as directly as possible and cut out as many middle men as possible
if anyone is interested in this project, you can come down to south america (on your own coin) and stay will me for a month or two while we build and test a prototype. just let me know.
Globalization and its discontents... (Score:2)
"So, there're aborigines in Australia who whip out laptops?" (Like, right....)
"Dunno about Australia. But they do talk about tribal villages in the Amazon who regularly check the prices their handicrafts fetch in the galleries of New York."
Total incredulity."They care?"
"And they aren't at all pleased by what they've seen...so far. They're really pissed at all the tourist gringoes who've ripped them off, getting artifacts that represent weeks of good work for almost free."
Strange guilty look....
Point is, one of the things that globalization, including 'net access, is going to do, what it is doing, is destroying much of the romantic notions that the urban progressive intellgensia (of which New Haven has a large community) has had about the rest of the world. Their world is split into three: themselves, a thick shell around them of hostile know-nothings (and their controllers), and a huge world of female/ Third World/ of color/ poor/ lesbian/ non-Christian/ etc. "authentic" peoples, who despite not having access to the academic journals detailing the latest fads in intellectual discourse, think exactly like themselves.
Back in the 1930's and '40's, there was a romantic notion that America's working poor were somehow all unconscious Marxists: that, given half a chance, they'd renounce nationalist fervor in favor of the "Internationale", and superstitious Judeo-Christianity for the spiritual consolations of the progress of history. These diamonds in the rough would have much rather had an functionally spare apartment in a housing project rather than a baroque Victorian castle, simple, clean, clothes rather than ruffly froufrou, and good fellowship rather than material ambitions -- it simply stands to reason that they'd be vegetarians by choice, and appreciate Beethoven. Given a good income, it was argued, a sharecropper would prefer to live like a professor in an Eastern university over the life of a tycoon.
This myth was shattered, not by McCarthy's Red-baiting, but by historical events. Even without a Marxist revolution, the American working class rose in income and real wealth enormously over the 50's and 60's....and what did they buy? Televisions with which to watch, not Shakespeare, but Milton Berle. Tract houses with lawn flamingoes. Gaudy cars from which milady emerged clad, not in elegant homespun, but in loud polyester. Suddenly, the Enemy wasn't the fat guy in the top hat, but Archie Bunker, who wanted no truck with communism, or even communitarianism: he looked out for No. 1. Blacks were even worse: the granddaughters of Southern poverty proudly bedecked themselves with gold chains, designer logos, and platform shoes, and heaped scorn on the affluent whites who were now wearing sneakers, T-shirts, and jeans. It's hard to maintain that the rural poor of Middle America value musical integrity above all else in the face of Dolly Parton. Most of these people above didn't care about communism...they didn't even feel terribly upset by Vietnam!
Since then, this romantic image has become more and more removed from reality as it focuses on more and more inaccessible people, who have progressively come forward to debunk it: Eastern Asians (the same who gave you MSG and Pokemon, perhaps?), Hindus and Moslems (like the clerk at the 24 store?), Native Americans (who operate casinos like Mohegan Sun?), and so forth. About the last refuge they have are the native healers like the (safely dead) historical witches of the Celtic fringe (who --despite being unable to prevent the deforestation of highland Scotland, losing one out of three children at birth, and coming from a society that practised slave-taking and serfdom before Christianity-- were ob/gyn geniuses and identical in ideology to affluent American ecofeminist deconstructionists), and the sainted tribes of the Amazon, whose mastery of lifegiving common- but- neglected- by- the- blinkered- FDA herbs (that cure everything from the common cold to cancer) is equalled only by their supreme indifference to material wealth and scorn of technology.
Hang on, folks, we're in for a very bumpy ride.
Our local politician's campaign (Score:3)
Anyway, among the loser official candidate's strategies for advertising his candidature was to say that he would teach English and computers to every kid in urban and rural areas... Well, that was among his most foolish affirmations. Cartoonists all over the country started making jokes on him - "Finally we will be able to talk with the indigenous people who still don't know any Spanish - we will talk in English!", a little kid asking the candidate: "Mr. Candidate, Mr. Candidate! Can we have laptops on my village? We still do not have electricity!"...
The fact is, even though Mexico is among the most developed countries in Latin America, the rural areas completely lack the infrastructure needed to use computers... Let alone Internet access. There are still many small and medium sized cities that do not have a local ISP. How dare they say that our rural areas have any better luck? In Latin America, the rural areas have always been unimportant to the government.
Internet is borning here (Score:1)
Re:Deregulation and the World Bank (Score:1)
It's not a worthless paper, and my comment was directed more against the institutions themselves rather than the idea of IT improving a developing country's sort. My main issue with optimistic predictions about any given sector of the economy or policy reversing the poverty and general desolation (recently came back from a trip to Murmansk, in northern Russia, what a disaster) of a country's population is that historically, we have seen nothing like the benefits described in theoretical economics. Factors of a psychological, social and historical nature always seem to interfere with the best developed plan without ever being taken into account by supposedly well-informed, well-prepared and certainly well-paid consultants, bankers and government policy wonks.
I can see the potential benefits of increased access to information provided by a deeper penetration of affordable communications in developing countries' societies - information is power, after all, at least in understanding the events shaping one's life. However, I am extremely wary about touting any one field, be it IT or agribusiness, as a driving force behind deep-seated reform at all levels of society as long as the forces controlling the development of the field are concentrated in the remote boardrooms of corporations whose interests are radically opposed to those of the subjects in their employ.
If the tools "they" give you have been designed only to maximize "their" profit, can you really use them to construct a better environment for anybody but "them"? When Microsoft (or Apple, or HP, or whoever) gives your school a million-dollar computer lab and stipulates that no competitors' products are to be installed on the shiny new machines, is the end result ultimately beneficial or harmful?
--
Violence is necessary, it is as American as cherry pie.
H. Rap Brown
One way to go in Latin America (Score:2)
1. Have never been in Latin America, or
2. Use "benign" stereotypes to draw their conclusions, or
3. Have had experience or observed what underdevelopment is like someplace, and based on that, make generalizations about 3rd world countries as a whole.
First and foremost, no pun intended, there are different "levels" of underdevelopment. One cannot compare the average experience in Mexico, Uruguay, or South Africa, with Ghana or Bangladesh. What I'm saying here is not to say who's better and who's worse. Look at it from the point of view of practicality; different levels of underdevelopment will dictate what corrective measures are inmediately applicable or not.
Also, there are places where the most fundamental infrastructures are missing and nearly impossible to introduce; however, many of those situations are not due to extreme poverty. For example, in Northern Nicaragua, where I came from, it's nearly impossible to put electric and telephone cables. However, even the poorest farmer in those regions need to communicate with the outside in order to know how and when and how much of their crops (grains and coffee for the most part) need to be moved to more accessible areas for shipping, as well as to know if an incoming natural disarter like a hurricane is going to take place.
BellSouth, I believe, is doing some work down there to provide cellulars at a low cost to farmers, even the poorest ones, as well as other communication technologies. Bio-gas powered devices are being researched by every major university in Latin America, which combined with wireless internet access will make life easier to those living in remote areas. Granted, they'll need faster access to medical and educational facilities, and refrigerators, but at least they'll have a better medium of communication for their farming issues and businesses. This is not theory; it's a tangible example of how techonology is helping those too poor to live away from their crops high in the mountains.
And, as somebody said in
My only hope is that someday, the standard of living improves everywhere for everybody.
Peace,
Luis Espinal.
http://www.cs.fiu.edu/~lespin03
Re:How typically arrogant (Score:1)
I think this is absurd. Of course, you said "may help," so its ok.
But seriously, I think access to wonderful modern marvels such as A/C, refrigeration, indoor lighting might be a little more useful to a village in Ecuador than a Microsoft/Starbucks joint. If you want access to education, having the ability to read after the sun goes down is a big plus.
The point, imho, is that simple basic infrastructure like electricity & plumbing are a tad higher in priority than being able to surf web.
Re:How typically arrogant (Score:1)
While this may be slightly offtopic, it seems foolish to assume that Africa, one of the worlds most impoverished locations, would benefit from the introduction of internet cafes instead of basic necessities. Africa has been particularly devastated by the HIV virus. For an overview (yes, it's probably biased and not a perfect source) you can see the Seattle Post-Intelligencer [nwsource.com]. Access to information will probably not aid the African problem.
"What you have not considered is the reason why Sudan or Chechnya (your examples) are impoverished. In most cases, poverty has little to do with a lack of resources and much more to do with politics."
This is entirely on target. Simply put, nobody wants to deal with Africa. The UN has made some minor steps, but very little action. Meanwhile, the continent is plagued with wars, rebellions, diseases, etc. After plundering Africa in the early 1900's most of the major nations seem to have washed their hands of it. Before Internet access will have any benefit, the political status of Africa needs to be changed.
Missing the point a bit... (Score:2)
There a quite a few reasons that poverty is such
a problem here. Here are some of the biggies.
Number 1: Upwards of 90 percent of the population are almost completely native. As you probably know, the nations that colonized South America were not very nice to the natives. After centuries of oppresion and deprivation of opportunity, a lot of people have a very narrow mindset as to their potential. "Why should I try to do something in a better way when it won't make any difference?" is a common (in many cases, not concious) attitude. So many people are just not motivated to do anything different than what they already know.
Number 2: The government is corrupt and self serving. For example, Arequipa, the city where I live, is in the midst of a slight economic recession because the government, in an effort
to draw more people to the capital (which equals more money for them) raised the taxes for businesses here considerably and lowered them in Lima. Now it's harder for a business to turn a profit. There are many similar examples. Look it up on the web. You'll find quite a bit of info. (Which is not EVER on TV here)
The problem with some of the comments so far is that they assume that until everyone has the basic physical needs (food, shelter, health care) that technology (and the access to it) is not going to do any real good for Jose Sixpack. That's parially right. But, I have news for yah. That ain't gonna happen anyway the way things are going. Not everyone is going to benefit from it right away.
However, some people will. And are. And those people that are using the knowledge and information available because of the internet are becoming aware of ways to do things differently. They're having new doors opened in their minds. Which is where the changes will actually start.
Also, there are internet cafes all over the place.
I mean ALL over the place here. Although usually withouth the coffee
lots of people are using it, albeit mainly for email. But that's important because it's introducing the technology, even if it isn't being fully used yet.
I think Internet access is a win-win situation here. Note: this does not mean that other efforts to improve the standard of living need to be discarded. It's a mistake to think that all effort should be put into one area or to think that two methods are mutually exclusive. Believe me, we need all the help we can get.
There have to be more Slashdotters in South America out there.... their opinions will be the most constructive. So, if you're out there, say something!!!
Requirements for effective low-income access (Score:2)
We tend to see a lot of starving peasants on TV, because the only time that peasants become interesting to TV reporters is when they are starving or cutting down rain forests. But in fact only a tiny proportion of peasants around the world are starving at any given time.
What keeps them as peasants though, and what will ensure that sooner or later Famine will come riding through on his horse, is ignorance. Ignorance of medical care, national and global politics, markets, effective horticulture. Its difficult for us information-rich to imagine just what a limitation it is. Its difficult for them to imagine as well, because frequently they don't know either.
But on the other hand, there have been any number of schemes which parachute some high tech into the middle of a mud hut village. The Aid Workers arrive in their Land Rovers, drop off the kit, take a few pictures and leave. Six months later the kit breaks down and nobody knows what to do about it. Traditionally this has been done with water pumps. In the future it could just as easily be computers.
On the other hand, the image of a bright teenager cobbling together a village computer out of discarded bits has a lot more to recommend it. That, ironically, is a lot more sustainable and a lot cheaper. But its also too random. Somewhere in between must lie a rational policy which gets computers and the necessary educational and support infrastructure into place.
One day there will be an African Reneissance. I just hope I live to see it.
Paul.
Oh, Latin America... (Score:1)
-For rural areas and poor neighbourhoods the Internet is a cheap and great way to help on education and selling their goods.
-Remember, well-done Americans out there, the first thing you lose on poverty is self-conscience, and the second is self-esteem. The Net is an interesting way to help people recover them.
-Some people will laugh at me. But the 486 is still a decent platform for basic Net browsing and e-mail. You can find a 486/8MB with Windows 3.11 at USD150-200. Throw a, say, 28800 or 33600 modem (fortunately Win-crap-modems are not popular at these speeds) at USD20-30, an Arachne web browser and... Basic Net browsing and speed!
-OK... do you want a better computer? Go to Salvador, Bahia, in the northeast of Brazil. It's a beautiful, big city with a immense poor population. And a company called Microtec had set up a financing system so people in shanty towns and poor neighbourhoods can buy their very own computer. Very interesting.
-I don't know in other countries, but in Brazil free Net ISPs have taken the market by storm. Even some banks (and a lot of poor people receive their salaries on bank accounts) are offering free Net access.
Put the money towards food (Score:1)
Re:Food (Score:1)
Yes, but you're missing the point.
Making money in IT is based on people buying stuff (the various .com's on the internet), or serving as part of the infrastructure of business/industry.
You are missing the point too. Making money in the net is more about selling a service (or advertising services) than about selling stuff (loosely speaking). Now the transition from an industrial economy to a service economy is what we've been witnessing throughout the Western world world, and is a highly desirable one for Third World countries even if they do not have a first-class industrial economy to begin with (which is not the case in most countries in LA: the industry may suck, but it is the basis of the economy.
The assumption that all developing countries have an agrarian based economy is one of the most widespread and silly misconceptions you see when slashdotter pontificate about this subject.
Re:Moderators: (Score:1)
Amazon radio (Score:1)
I maybe wrong but I think that in the Amazon it's usual to recieve education via radio (two-way?). Of course, the Internet would be hard to bring there but it would be a big improvement.
__
Re:How typically arrogant (Score:1)
"Providing net cafes may help communities far more than, for example, providing electricity to every home."
I think this is absurd. Of course, you said "may help," so its ok. :)
I'm not the poster you replied to, but I'll take on that challenge: take the Old City district in Salvador, Brazil, for instance, an area already bustling with tourist activity; set up a few cybercafés so that said tourists can email their folks back home and hang around and exchange experiences with other tourists; net result: more tourists are attracted to the place, which in turn gets Maria a better income by selling local cuisine specialties to tourists; which in turn gets her son, José, a better education because he can now attend school and not be forced into menial jobs that would compromise his school attendance; this will, in the future, enhance his chances of landing a well-paid job (or even better, starting an enterprise of his own) improving his socio-economic conditions and those of his relatives.Q.E.D
Re:Reducing the gap between the rich and the poor? (Score:1)
Flamebait or chauvinistic? (Score:1)
Like the Pilgrim fathers did.
__
A Portuguese-language Slashdot. (Score:1)
__
Re:Missing the point a bit... (Score:1)
I live in Peru.
I am always intrigued when I see this line coming from non-US posters (and I've seen it from Nowegians, Swedish etc). Do you live in Peru or are you a Peruvian?
Number 1: Upwards of 90 percent of the population are almost completely native. As you probably know, the nations that colonized South America were not very nice to the natives.
Now, I realize it wasn't probably your intention to say so, but I don't see how the population being majoritarily native is a problem. Furthermore, I don't think the Spanish were as bad as, say the English in North America, seing as most of South American are to this day of native ancestry.There have to be more Slashdotters in South America out there.... their opinions will be the most constructive. So, if you're out there, say something!!!
SomthingRe:How typically arrogant (Score:1)
I'm not motivated to help Computerbank because of an operating system. Computerbank excites me because I hope that people in unfortunate circumstances and the GNU/Linux community may be able to help each other.
We can help them get an education or a job. Perhaps, just perhaps, some of them will end up being active participants in the GNU/Linux world.
I have spent a lot of time trying to help people in other ways (such as being involved in politics - shudder), and I can assure you that drawing on the support of a community like ours makes things a lot easier.
P.S. apologies to anyone who regards this as offtopic. I would have replied by email, were it not an AC who made this comment. Whoever you are, if you want to continue discussing this, please feel free to mail me.
Reducing the gap between the rich and the poor? (Score:2)
The current capitalism system proves to enlarge this gap. It'll be interesting to know if the internet itself will be enough to reduce it, at least to tolerable levels.
Interesting enough, in the G8 countries, it'll probably be harder for the poorer to get internet access - and the world knows that the one who won't master the internet is the one that will be left out of this world. The victims may well be in these countries, if they are not the countries themselves.
Re:Food (Score:1)
Re:Not much different to Television (Score:1)
You have a problem with cynicism do you ? Of course they may be better off in the long term, but that doesn't mean that they won't be exploited in the short term. Can you say 'Nike' and 'Third World Production'?
Re:Food (Score:1)
They could use the internet to order food from WebVan. :)
Hmmn (Score:1)
On one hand.. YOu have to go outside and take a crap in a hole in the ground. But ahh.. I can still read
The real money (Score:1)
Gold has had a long and sordid history in man's exploitation of man (see slavery) so the irony of this is especially fun for folks who know a bit of history. Again my offer to click a bit of e-gold to anyone who wants to try it still stands (and again, probably very few of you will take me up on it. Oh well).
Moderate this down, see if I care.
JMR
Poor In Latin America Embrace Net's Promise (Score:1)
The internet gives us a global neighborhood forum which no President or King or Dictator can rule; the ideas here run the gamut from idiotic to genus and everything between, but they are *ours*.
Re:Internet help more in the long run? (Score:1)
But if a kid can read a little, the net can help them learn more. Not through "remote education", or whatever, but because people want to read what's out there. I know there are plenty of people who learned basic english in school, and learned more by hanging out on the net.
"If a kid can't do better than rudimentary math, she can't program."
Not really... I learned sines and cosine through programming an Asteroids game in QBASIC. I've also learned about Voronoi diagrams and other stuff through programming. Think of all those 7-year-olds learning LOGO.
So, the net can help these countries.
-Dave Turner.
Is it really worth it? (Score:1)
fuck the internet (Score:1)
To add some perspective in the discussion... (Score:1)
Remember that all developed/undeveloped counties are not at the same level of development/undevelopment... Everyone seems to be taking pitty in the poor undeveloped southamerican countries where "the phone company charged per-minute for even local calls"... Well let me tell you that in our beloved and overlydeveloped Sweden they are still charging per minute on on local, distance and dialup acces.... How's that for a developed country...
Thank you.
//Frisco
--
Re:Internet help more in the long run? (Score:1)
Although it would be quite difficult to use the internet with no ability to read, using it would help improve upon a basic reading ability. I have a south american friend who learned english by watching tv and listening to American music. Is it so difficult to comprehend that resources need to come before learning rather that learning before resources?
If a kid can't do better than rudimentary math, she can't program.
What desire is there to learn math if you can't see a use for it? If you have the resources to write a program, yet don't have the knowledge, your desire to create will lead you to learn the necessary skills.
Re:Food (Score:1)
Re:Not much different to Television (Score:1)
Why should anybody try to speak intelligently to you, when you are so obviously full of both conceit and shit?
Because you are a gutless hypocrite - I might have some respect for you if you showed some kind of reasonable intelligence, but you attack me for something not related to the discussion at hand -- in doing so, you make a gross misinterpretation about me and my interests anyway -- and you don't even have the balls to come out from beyond your AC veil. We could keep going for hours, and you would keep losing. Have a nice life.
Re:Food (Score:1)
Re:A Spanish language Slashdot. (Score:1)
And instead of posting as an AC, you can post as a Pendejo Sin Nombre.
It should be noted, for non-Spanish speakers, that Pendejo Sin Nombre, translates roughly as Nameless Asshole. I think Slashdot would profit a great deal from a similar terminology.Re:Food (Score:1)
What kind of services could a Third-World country have to offer (to another country ... first world countries just take what they want from the third world ... it's wrong, but we get everything we want/need out of them already)? (I ask this queston honestly) Certainly they couldn't provide services to their own citizens (except for the élite few that live at the top of their respective economies), as they certainly could not afford them (the necessities of life take precidence).
If I'm wrong, let me know...
The assumption that all developing countries have an agrarian based economy is one of the most widespread and silly misconceptions you see when slashdotter pontificate about this subject.
I realize that agriculture is not the sole source of income in the poorer countries of the world. I simply contend that there is a natural progression for an economy. Trying to skip the development of a solid industrial sector is silly.
I guess that I'm basically saying that IT and the internet "service sector" is over-rated (don't take offense people, its important, but not the solution to the world's problems). Look at what has been happening lately. Over-valued dotcoms have been sliding in value, as people are finally realizing that profit-less, product-less companies are not worth investing in. Like I said in my previous comment, internet access can help, but economy infrastructure is more important. Throwing internet access into the mix and hoping that the infrastructure will take care of itself will not work.
Net access is only a small part of the solution.
Re:Food (Score:1)
Making money in IT is based on people buying stuff (the various .com's on the internet), or serving as part of the infrastructure of business/industry.
The West (Europe, North America, Japan, etc.) was ready for the "internet revolution". It had a strong industrial base, and a stable middle-class that could fuel the "new economy" (I hate buzzwords).
Honestly, do you think that a country that doesn't really have an economy could really get an economic boost from internet access (at least not directly)?
Don't get me wrong, however. 'Net access is a Good Thing(tm). It serves as a medium for enlightenment, and a source of knowledge. Hopefully, the citizens of these countries would learn something and put it to use...
But its not a cut-and-dried solution. There are no guarantees.
Plus, you never know what those farmers may do with easy access to hard-core porn.... :)
Re:Moderators: (Score:1)
Re:Food (Score:1)
What kind of services could a Third-World country have to offer (to another country ... first world countries just take what they want from the third world ... it's wrong, but we get everything we want/need out of them already)?
There are you go again making the wrong assumptions. Who says the services have to be provided to another country? Clearly, the point of a service-based economy is making more money circulate internally, thus helping the economy grow as a whole.
Granted, a good netting some dollars from exports is good, but most Third World countries already do thatv (some with industrialized goods, some with agricultural produce). Doesn't go very far towards improving the living conditions for the majority, though.
I realize that agriculture is not the sole source of income in the poorer countries of the world. I simply contend that there is a natural progression for an economy. Trying to skip the development of a solid industrial sector is silly.
Once again, your contention is wrong. What is natural progress in history? Which country shows them the correct path to follow? The US? Switzerland? Japan?
Anyways, you're also wrong in assuming that the industrial infrastructure is not in place. Most countries in Latin America, and most in Southern Asia have a fairly industrialized economy. What they don't have, in opposition to Western Europe, North America and Japan is a sizeable middle class, which is able to provide three fundamental things: tax money to fund a rational social infrastructure; savings to fuel investment; and third the demand for services that will grow the economy. Anything that brings about more of the latter is a worthy goal, IMHO.
Food (Score:2)
Re:Food (Score:1)
This brings up an interesting point, whose economy is more crazy and irrational, a poor third-world country's, or a rich country like the USA where the economy is driven by 2 year old company's who are losing billions of dollars. Forget the Bay of Pigs, we're giving Latin America the invasion of the daytraders!
Be very very afraid.
Re:Moderators: (Score:1)
Anyways, my guess as to what happened to your post moderation is that, even though you intended it to be a humorous, commonplace inanity, it found echo in the cluelessness of some moderators. Slashdot is such an amazing place!
times should change (Score:1)
People are people. (Score:1)
Re:Food (Score:1)
Re:How typically arrogant (Score:1)
hmmmmm (Score:1)
Re:Moderators: (Score:1)
The net doing more than plumbing? (Score:1)
The ideas on the net will help them the most... ideas of making the best of your situation, improving yourself and your community, and exceeding your own expectations.
Much like the Printing Press (Score:2)
Is it possible that near-universal Internet access might do more in the long run than plumbing and other infrastructure improvements to help raise people in developing nations out of poverty?
What is beginning to happen is much like the proliferation of books upon the invention of the printing press. People are being exposed to new ideas (except where blocked, such as "The Great Firewall of China" seen here earlier) and these are letting them see much more than they could have ever realized elsewhere.
Granted, they still need food and the basic necessities of life, before this it was not feasible for them to learn the info they can now get. People often overlook the benefits that universal Internet access could have on our global society. This is one more reason why censorship and regulation of content has no place on the Internet.
hopes + skills = real revolution (Score:4)
It's definitely part of the solution, but it's not the whole thing. Access itself is great, but training people to use it is way more useful. Check out Peoplink [peoplink.org], an organization that goes to poorer countries and gives them computers and teaches them how to use them to sell their goods online (I may be missing something else they do, but that's my understanding of it). I think they're a great, great thing because although access may give them "hopes and expectations" (and I'm not arguing those things are extremely valuable), they need training and skills in order to translate those hopes into something tangible and useful.
But again, yay internet! :)
Don't comment, help out (Score:3)
Of course, part of the problem with bringing in computers into places where other things are needed much more is that computers are considered frivolous compared to the more urgent needs of clean water, healthcare, and the like. These considerations aside, the collective community of those who are blessed with large salaries and tech access should be helping in all means possible.
Re:Yeah... (Score:1)
Both CMM and ISO9K measure quality of the *process*, not the product.
Re:hopes + skills = real revolution (Score:1)
Of course, the Internet can also be used to provide training [wired.com] and skills [theplumber.com]...
Tech support (Score:1)
--
Violence is necessary, it is as American as cherry pie.
H. Rap Brown
Re:Food (Score:1)
Brilliance (Score:2)
Or ILOVEYOU. So it's partly the responsibility of the rest of the online community to encourage responsible growth and also show that the real money is behind productivity.
JHK
Re:Moderators: (Score:1)
Re:Food (Score:1)
They could use the internet to order food from WebVan.
And a flush toilet from Home Depot. Which they could perch precariously above the open sewer running past the back door. And what's a little hunger and dysentry when you have access to deeply discounted airfares?
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
very close ... (Score:1)
Or not.
Keep trying though. The Jon Katz writing style is a very hard thing to get down, and I don't claim to know all the answers.
Yeah... (Score:3)
IBM, Siemans and one other company I don't recall are doing it in Timisoara, Romania alone. IBM's also got a lot of shops in India, too. Software's easy to manipulate on the Internet and gets moved around tax free, and you don't have to muck about with getting someone a hard-to-get worker's visa. My counterparts in Romania were as good as, if not better than most of the programmers I've worked with over here, they're making several times the national average salary in Romania and at least at IBM they were doing shit work that no one here wanted to touch (Like maintaining OS/2 device drivers.) It's like getting someone fresh out of college, only better.
not arrogance. hope. (Score:2)
but i too hold tremendous hope for internet to raise the quality of life for the ordinary (not rich like you and i) men and women in zambia.
it's true that we need medicical care etc also but raised incomes from using the internet are a means to that end.
it is true also that your local John 3:16 could probably use a hand once in a while too. but don't call a person arogant for wanting to help in the way that he knows best.
it's not arrogance to think that what you are doing can benifit humanity. it's hope. and we could all do with a little more hope.
Re:Not much different to Television (Score:1)
For what it's worth : IT and the internet can do a lot to improve the situation in developing countries, there's no doubt about that. But at the same time, it's rife for being used as an exploitive mass medium. Can't you just hear the multinational telecommunications companies ready to pounce on new markets, in 20 years time, perhaps the exploitive communications revolution will look like the exploitive natural resources revolution, with all its claims to be for the benefit of the locals. I am too cynical.
Re:Food (Score:1)
what about the 'natural resources' promises? (Score:2)
Can someone do me a favour and tell me how the 'oil and gas' companies promised to make the developing world better, and whether those promises actually came to be ? And then tell me whether the same thing can happen with the information technology revolution ? So as the multinationals go hunting for new markets in the developing world (whether that world be in developing countries or in developed countries - think about one!), what kind of long term damage is being done.
A Spanish language Slashdot. (Score:1)
www.barrapunto.com [barrapunto.com] offers stuff that matters in Spanish.
It's a great way to improve your Spanish reading ability, even if you're starting with none at all. Just grab a dictionary and start building your lexicon. You'd be surprised how quickly you can achieve 80 to 90 percent comprehension.
With the demographic changes expected in the US in the comming decades, being able to at least read Spanish is probably a good skill to pick up. And Barrapunto.com generally has a good set of stories which complement those on Slashdot. And instead of posting as an AC, you can post as a Pendejo Sin Nombre.
Re:hopes + skills = real revolution (Score:3)
We should remember, hope is one thing, but having no realistic means to achieve your hopes ultimately leaves you... hopeless.
The people at issue need good education, so they might be able to build a middle class, the bedrock of any functional society.
There won't be loads of IT jobs opening up in rural Peru anytime soon. A good way for them to use the internet is to learn a discipline.
Like a broken record... (Score:1)
The internet in zambia (Score:1)
So I am always interesting in articles about how computers and the internet are doing in poorer countries.
Zambia is a different situation than South America because the population is less dense. And because Zambia has more poverty. So needless to say AOL probably isn't going to be planning to come to Zambia anytime soon.
However this is still a very exciting time for me because of all the hopefull things happening in the Zambian internet scene right now.
For a real picture of the state of technolodgy in a third world country. There is an interesting interview with the three Zambian ISP's at : http://zambia.co.zm/infotelli gence/isp_interview.html [zambia.co.zm]
Re:How typically arrogant (Score:1)
But the chances of that are unlikley, and if you're going to label me as racist, check out this book. [amazon.com] It's by an Oxford professeur of the mid 70's who came to the logical conclusion that racial differences exceeded skin color.
To refer to an excellent summary, "To Baker, a biologist, it is patently obvious. Races differ. The Japanese cannot win at basketball, sprints, or the high jump. If body size is critical for sports, brain size is critical for civilization building. This leads to a thorough discussion of brain size, the development of IQ measurements, and the heritability of intelligence. Baker concludes that only Europids and the Mongolids are capable of founding civilizations. If the capacity to originate civilizations is the criterion, some races and subraces are superior, while others are inferior. Baker relates absorbing information concerning intelligence in mixed-race people. The American Negro is about 25% Europid, but this varies, especially from north to south. Intelligence in Negroes depends on the percentage of White blood. For example, Furguson's 1914 study showed that quadroons (3/4 White and 1/4 Black) are the most intelligent Negroes, but are far below Whites. " Down with PCism and up with realism. =)
Re:Yeah... (Score:1)
OS/3 (Score:2)
On the plus side, since they don't control it, they won't be able to fuck it up like they invariably do with the products they make.
Re:what about the 'natural resources' promises? (Score:1)
Erm, coward, whether or not people prefer to live in well-developed first-world countries doesn't stop them exploiting the developing worlds. Grow up.
Re:Not much different to Television (Score:1)
Yes, isn't it awful that those dirty poor brown people get access to phones and computers and televeision broadcasts, just like you?
No, but it's awful when technology is dumped people and is questionably not beneficial. Grow up.
Re:A Spanish language Slashdot. (Score:2)
It should be noted, for non-Spanish speakers, that Pendejo Sin Nombre, translates roughly as Nameless Asshole. I think Slashdot would profit a great deal from a similar terminology.
That's how Babelfish [altavista.com] translates it but a more accurate translation is nameless moron. Otherwise, I agree with you. Slash could benefit from a similar terminology.
Re:true to a point (Score:1)
My post was formed with an image of poor (with a capital P) living conditions. Obviously, if you have electricity, indoor plumbing, windows, etc., then internet access is one of the next big steps. But imagine a shack out in the wastelands with NOTHING. Adding internet access won't help.
Re:A Spanish language Slashdot. (Score:1)
Now let's petition Rob for the name change
World Bank paper on why developing world needs IT (Score:5)
Information technology can increase knowledge of health concerns, funding sources, successful development models, social information about human rights and the environment, crop prices, and more. It can provide new training and opportunities, bridging the significant gap between rural and urban life.
If you are really interested and aren't just expressing a contrarian point to be cool, try this World Bank paper [infodev.org] on the need for IT in the developing world and the obstacles to introducing it. It's in PDF.
Yogurt
Re:Moderators: (Score:1)
sociological internet affects (Score:1)
But the rising tide lifts all ships, which is why we see progress in a few precious, benificial areas. Also bouyed, however, are thoughtlesness, greed and a lack of compassion.
Basically it's going to get worse before it gets better. The internet is a great loopback. When most people have the ability to absorb the real fabric of our race, we will begin to make decisions rooted in this fabric, rather than being confounded by our "leaders".
Re:Not much different to Television (Score:1)
You're lucky I'm replying to this and enlightening that narrow minded brain of yours: bauhaus is more than an architecture, but an interesting design school for its ideology and place in the history of design (do you know anything about these things?). Come back when you have something intelligent to say.
Plumbing? (Score:1)
sorry, roblimo (Score:1)
What is the internet used for these days? The best thing AFAIC is its potential for research. No more thousand dollar encyclopediae, just check encarta.com. It's also good for more casual research, like finding what's the best hard drive or the best car. Also it's good for buying stuff without having to leave the house and deal with the incompetents/incompetence of CompUSA. And of course the convenience of email is nice and does make the world seem much smaller.
However, I fail to see how the Internet is going to bring anybody out of poverty. Of all these "selling points" for the internet, tell me, which is the one that will magically lift people up and give them great lives? The internet is all well and good and It's nice that poor countries are getting connected, but really, who in their right minds would choose internet connectivity over plumbing or paved roads? This seems quite ludicrous to me. I think a nation below the poverty line should be more focused on feeding its people than giving them email accounts. But people will do what they want, so let them eat dotcoms.
Ev.
Re:How typically arrogant (Score:4)
You are correct in claiming that there are things that a lot of people on this planet have got to worry about for survival before they can think about net access. You are unwise to flame Roblimo for asking the question. Arguing that we must provide universal basic infrastructure before thinking about brining the net to impoverished countries is quite naive.
What you have not considered is the reason why Sudan or Chechnya (your examples) are impoverished. In most cases, poverty has little to do with a lack of resources and much more to do with politics. Also, your examples are places where conditions are extremely harsh; there are numerous "third world" countries in less drastic situations.
Providing net cafes may help communities far more than, for example, providing electricity to every home. It is only when people have some access to education and information that they can hope to actually improve their situations.
Re:How typically arrogant (Score:1)
Re:World Bank paper on why developing world needs (Score:2)
I wonder if the WB has a research paper generator, where you could plug in several topical buzzwords, and the engine will take care of spreading them over the standard thirty pages of neo-liberal drivel about "opening up" the "markets", "liberalizing" the "marketplace", "leveling" the "playing field", and "removing" the "barriers" to "free trade."
One would think that after the debacles in Russia and South East Asia, the WB/IMF duo would have released a new version of the generator, one with a keyword dictionary expanded to use such terms as "social responsibility", "structural reform", "historical and cultural specifics" and a few other variables that would help produce a more accurate output. Instead, as we clearly see with this paper, both the algorithm
if !deregulation
statistics = random
policy(statistics, buzzwords)
print(policy_return)
fi
and the dictionary have remained at the version released in the early 90s.
The result? Foreign conglomerate gobbles up former local monopolist with an investment safely backed by the Western taxpayer via their respective country's equivalent of the Export-Import Bank, splits the profits between corrupt local officials and foreign shareholders, acquires unrestrained access to a miserably paid, subservient (no deregulation in the realm of political oppression) workforce and offsets the inevitable downturn in its stockprice and the welfare of the Western state by opening up a new profit lifeline abroad. Tight plan. Not bad for an old app.
--
Violence is necessary, it is as American as cherry pie.
H. Rap Brown
Yes, I think it has real potential (Score:2)
One of the largest problems in poverty-stricken areas is education. Basic sanitation, care of diseases, how to keep crops productive, etc. Education does not proceed by trying to teach everyone. Instead you proceed by trying to identify key people and teach them, then rely on traditional networks to spread that knowledge.
Computers in every home is a silly goal. Computers in the third world are far more likely to be like television. A village may only have one with someone who can use it. But that one is a resource for the whole village.
Cheers,
Ben
Deregulation and the World Bank (Score:1)
However, I was recommending the paper as a good introduction to the potential benefits of IT. Whether or not you agree with the World Bank's view of how to obtain them is another matter. I'm still undecided.
I'm writing something right now about IT and the developing world and haven't seen any statistics to counteract the Bank's claim that increased telecommunication deregulation leads to economic strengh for all levels of society. If anyone has counterexamples or stats, I'd be happy to read them.
Yogurt
was food now: did you read the article? (Score:1)
Did anyone actually read the article in the Post before spouting off? The Ashaninka village raised their revenues by 10% using e-commerce to sell their organically raised oranges in Lima 250 miles (or was it kilometers) away. You don't think that 10% revenue growth is significant in a community of that size? Maybe to buy more food?
Also of interest was the mother's comment, "I may already be part of a lost generation, but my children won't be." You see, she can't read well enough to use the internet, but she's making sure her kids learn.
As others have said, South America != Africa. Much of the land is arable and many of the societies are agrarian. They are eating just fine, they just can't get above subsistence living because in the past wealth was based on natural resources. Now that wealth can be knowledge based, these countries have a hope of pulling themselves out of poverty, and rich US citizens are going to sit back and tell them they are doing it in the wrong order.
2nd. Most humanitarian organizations have discovered that communication is the first requirement. If you provide food with no way for them to ask for help if the crop fails, they just starve next year instead of this (that applies more to Africa than SA). If you provide communication, they can help themselves by learning about plumbing and why they need it, etc.
I generally enjoy /. but this thread was lead by folks who didn't read the article, don't know anything about geopolitics or economics.
BTW, they were provided with a generator (their first electricy) and a satellite dish. Do you think that maybe they can use these for other improvements as well as e-commerce, distance learning (one of them has made it to the university -- a first)?
jeez.A Brazilian's Perspective (Score:1)
Here in Brazil there is a very bad wealth distribution. By pure coincidence, I have recent figures, as a major Brazilian magazine published this week an article regarding the rich guys [uol.com.br]. It's consent here that one of the major problems is the wealth distribution.
Those who have an annual income of R$ 7.716 (US$ 4.000) are among the 10% richest Brazilians. Those who earn more than R$ 26.400 (US$ 13894) are the 1% richest, and their incoming is greater than the total incoming of the 50% poorest.
Of course, this includes poor rural areas. Big cities, like Sao Paulo, are quite like NYC. Money is mostly concentrated in the capitals (Sao Paulo, Rio, Brasilia, Belo Horizonte, etc). In these big cities, like in Sao Paulo, that's where I live, we have some places with a standard of life similar to more developed countries. Yes, we have ADSL, cable modem, Mc Donald's, HBO, WB TV, and most stuff americans have. There are like 10 million Brazilians w/ Internet access (not sure about this number.).
This said, we can add that there are lots of illiterates and people who can't have access to the Internet.
And let's face it. Most people will simply use it for on-line chatting. Few people will do something useful with it, let alone profit from it. I guess only those with more culture will actually research or do something productive. But if they have some culture, they most probably are not in the 50% poorest group.
This way, the net can cause even more social distortion. This can be bad. On the other way, the net can really bring new opportunities to people who wouldn't have conditions for such.
Knowing how to access the net will soon be one of the pre-requisites of many jobs. Knowing how to use a computer already is. This will make the computer illiterates socially excluded.
So, in my opinion, it'll contribute for some of the poorest people to become even poorer, but will give many new opportunities. It's not necessarily bad or good. It's a change. People call it progress.
There will always be an intermediary (Score:2)
What a load of crap. (Score:1)
Who do you think will use e-mail more? the guy that lives on the capital of the country (who can just pick up the phone and make a local call) or the guy who lives 1000 km far from the capital?
Of course "they need food before internet" (I saw a lot of posts with smart ass comments like that), and Internet will let them get more food for less price.
--
Re:Food (Score:2)
They set villages up with livestock. They're used for labour, for their eggs/milk/fleece/whatever, or they're bred (for food).
Most impressive is the ratio of administration-to-assistance. Only about 8% of your donation goes toward administring the charity; another 16% goes to fundraising. The remaining 75% goes to the people that are being helped.
It's a lot better than most programs, where the ratios are often quite the reverse (most of the money going to paycheques for fatcat administrators).
--
Internet help more in the long run? (Score:3)
If a kid can't read, he can't use the Internet.
If a kid can't do better than rudimentary math, she can't program.
If a kid doesn't have an education, the the kid isn't going to go farther than the local factory or field. And I think the Internet can help supplement a child's education (and the local infrastructure) but I don't think online instruction can replace the real thing.
The rise and usefulness of the Internet depends on many factors, not just making PCs available or how many miles of cable can be laid.