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Journal cheezedawg's Journal: The Philippines 55

Journal by cheezedawg

I'd like to give a hollow Thanks to the Philippine government for the blow they just dealt the war on terror. As if Spain wasn't enough...

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The Philippines More

The Philippines

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  • They knew the risk sending folks to Iraq. They accepted the risk.

    Now, because they have taken a hostage and threaten to kill him they
    balk?!?

    Some years ago, George Bernard Shaw and a middle-aged London
    socialite engaged in one of the most famous encounters in the battle of
    the sexes. Shaw asked the woman if she would sleep with him for a
    million pounds. She responded with an enthusiastic "yes!" Then Shaw
    playfully lowered the offer to one pound and sixpence. "Certainly not!"
    the woman huffed, "what do you thi
    • Thats a great quote from George Bernard Shaw. It fits perfectly here.
    • I've been saying for a while that it is stunning to me that since the rest of the world has been wrestling with terrorism for years (in some places, for decades), I'd expect they'd be elated the US is finally joining the battle, but instead they are all horrified about it.
      *boggle*
    • They knew the risk sending folks to Iraq. They accepted the risk.

      I imagine its more like the U.S. threatened, cajoled or bribed them in to sending a token contingent so the U.S. could trumpet how big a coalition they have in Iraq. Many countries seem to be sending token contingents doing humanitarian or rebuilding work to stay on the right side of the 800 pound gorilla in the world.

      When things go bad are you surprised when they lack the resolve to ride it out, they didn't have any going in. They probab
  • Does the Phillipines have good reason to withdraw?

    You have suggested that the only possible reason the Phillipines would withdraw their troops is fear, and that it is an abdication of moral responsibility. Have I got that right?

    There has been a widespread view that Bush and Blair dragged their countries into the war based on a fabric of lies. Whether you agree to this view, or not, will you admit this view is widespread?

    In the lead-up to the invasion most Americans, most Senators, most Congressmen,

    • I don't think you are being fair to the Phillipines. Allow me to suggest you consider the possibility that the Phillipines wants to save their resources, their equipment, the lives of their soldiers, to serve in theatres of War where they are putting their lives at risk actually fighting terrorists that represent a threat to the Phillipines.

      That is irrelevant. The terrorists grabbed an innocent truck driver with 8 kids at home and said they were going to kill him unless the Filipino peacekeeping troops w

      • Bull crap. Bush did not make any new claims before invading Iraq- everything that he claimed (WMDs, terrorist connections, etc) had been cited by numerous nations (including Canada) over the past decade.

        Now that it is clear that Saddam did not have a ready stockpile of WMD I am getting pretty tired of this justification for the invasion.

        Did other World Leaders also believe that Saddam retained WMD? Well, Bill Clinton says he believed it.

        What does this mean?

        One could suggest convoluted and unflat

        • Now that it is clear that Saddam did not have a ready stockpile of WMD

          Clear? How is that clear? Here is what is clear:
          - Saddam had a stockpile of weapons
          - Saddam was required to show us proof that he had destroyed the stockpile, but he didn't

          Even your own PM believes [canoe.ca] that he still had weapons.

          One could suggest convoluted and unflattering explanation why other World Leaders didn't choose to initiate, participate in, or argue for, an all-out invasion of Iraq. But the simplest explanation is very straig

          • Now that it is clear that Saddam did not have a ready stockpile of WMD.

            Clear? How is that clear? Here is what is clear:
            - Saddam had a stockpile of weapons

            Secretary of State Colin Powell said that Iraq had hundreds of tons of nerve gas. [cnn.com]

            How many tons of nerve gas have been found? Have any nerve gas stockpiles been found? I am sure you will agree that less than even on ton of nerve gas has been found. What about the improvised explosive found in April that was built around an Iraqi chem

            • Didn't he? I am asking you a sincere question. What about that report he filed on December 8th 2002?

              There was a lot of suspense as to whether Saddam's would get the report filed on time. Various of the commentators I listened to predicted that the US would denounce the report as inadequate without regard to what it said. Saddam submitted it on time. It was 7000 pages long. And sure enough, the USA denounced it as inadequate almost right away

              EVERYBODY (including the UN) denounced it as inadequate. Her

              • What about that report he filed on December 8th 2002?

                EVERYBODY (including the UN) denounced it as inadequate. Here is the report from Hans Blix to the UN Security Council on 27 Jan 2003:

                Regrettably, the 12,000 page declaration, most of which is a reprint of earlier documents, does not seem to contain any new evidence that would eliminate the questions or reduce their number. Even Iraq's letter sent in response to our recent discussions in Baghdad to the President of the Security Council on 24

                • From your Blix quote:

                  Either it should be found and be destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision or else convincing evidence should be produced to show that it was, indeed, destroyed in 1991.

                  That is the exact point. Iraq was required to either show us the unaccounted WMDs, or show us some proof that they were destroyed. Blix's requests were not unreasonable- Iraq could have complied at any time. In fact, Iraq could have complied at any time during the past 12 years. But they didn't. How long are you willi
                  • I made an editing error when I wrote the comment you replied to. I failed to clearly mark the following as a direct quote from Blix. Maybe that is why you didn't address it?

                    Iraq has on the whole cooperated rather well so far with UNMOVIC in this field. The most important point to make is that access has been provided to all sites we have wanted to inspect and with one exception it has been prompt. We have further had great help in building up the infrastructure of our office in Baghdad and the field offi

                    • If you are going to quote a guy shouldn't you pay attention to the things they say that would counter your own points, as well as quoting those that back you up? Don't you think to do otherwise is disrespectful to both your audience and to the person whom you are quoting?

                      When it comes to national security, the goal isn't a "workable" environment -- it is 100% cooperation. It is clear that this was not happening.

                      And if Saddam destroyed them in secret, and there was no paper trail that would prove defini

                    • When it comes to national security, the goal isn't a "workable" environment -- it is 100% cooperation. It is clear that this was not happening.

                      The USA is not 100% cooperative. The USA and the USSR were flagrant non-complant signatories to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. The treaty had two parts. The nations without nuclear weapons programs promised not to start up programs -- "Horizonal Proliferation". But the other part of the treaty said that those nations that already had nuclear weapos

                    • ... description of Bush's patience is completely undermined by the failure to find ANY WMD...They weren't there. There were no WMD. I am going to repeat this, because it was important. There were no WMD...No WMD have been found.

                      You are right. We have not found any WMD in Iraq... Except ...
                      Oh wait, then there were the 3 dozen sarin shells, and mustard shells intercepted by the polish troops last month, oh and the sarin I.E.D used on an attack against coalition soldiers.......

                      I put the Sarin first

                    • And Iraq is not going to become a peaceful, prosperous democracy.

                      Did your Crystal Ball tell you that? If it's so good at telling the future, maybe you could get some stock tips from it.

                      The USA has a long history of propping up strongmen, leaders willing to use repression to keep order, which is good for business. Allawi is a former CIA agent. Not every single former CIA agent turned out to be a bad guy, but quite a few of them have. The Shah, Mobuto Sese Seko, Noriega, Marcos, Rioss Mont. I

                    • The USA is not 100% cooperative...

                      Nice rant, but it is irrelevant. Try reading Chapter VII of the UN charter if you don't understand why.

                      I gave a possible explanation for why he would destroy his WMD in secret earlier in this thread.

                      Um, yeah. It could be that. OR it could be the obvious explanation that every single government agreed to prior to the invasion- that Saddam was still in possession of and pursuing proscribed weapons.

                      I can't help wondering whether, if Bush had allowed Hans Blix to com
                    • So, is it fair to say that you are changing your argument from "Saddam did not have any WMD" to "Saddam did not have enough WMD"? Just how many WMD do you think it is acceptable for lunatic terrorists to possess? So he only had enough uranium for one nuclear bomb- is that supposed to make me feel good?

                      And for somebody that claims to know so much about what is going on in Iraq, I would have thought that you would actually read the ISG reports. Their first report has been released for almost a year, now,
                    • the press reports I heard, on the BBC, were that the Poles found one dozen missiles which could have been loaded with chemical weapons, except they were empty

                      I think we are confusing two different discoveries. Yes, the Poles did find about a dozen artillery shells that initially tested positive for Sarin, but were later found to be mostly empty. But there was a second discovery of 17 warheads and an additional 2 artillery shells that were about to be sold to Ansar al-Islam. These were confirmed to cont
                    • I am still not convinced he had any. I looked into what David Kay has said this year. He seems to have come around to the view that Saddam didn't have any WMD either, and that the invasion was not justified. He is giving a talk at a conference on the 28th and 29th.

                      I learned some stuff today. I hope the information I dug up on Iraqi style nerve gas munitions was interesting for you and other correspondents. Do I think that an invasion would be justified if Saddam was caught with a small amount of aging

          • You do realize that the coalition in Iraq is one of the largest international coalitions ever created, right?

            Hmmm. Are you sure? What makes the size significant? And how would you compute that?

            How many international coalitions are in the ring, anyhow? I am going to list the ones I know about, OK:

            * The allies in World War Two
            * The axis in World War Two
            * The British, French, Russian American side in World War One
            * The German, Austrian, Turkish side in World War One
            * The French side in the Napo

          • The "Fund for Iraqi Development" was the proper name of the UN fund where oil revenues were deposited during sanctions period.

            Anyway, there are plenty of equally simple explanations why a few countries opposed the invasion. The Oil For Palaces, er, I mean, Oil For Food gravy train is one of them. Why would France want to disrupt that sweet deal, especially since Saddam wasn't threatening to attack them.

            I am glad you agree with me. There are plenty of explanations. So, we are agreed that no one should

    • Whether you agree to this view, or not, will you admit this view is widespread?

      That's the most loaded, disrespectful, bullshit argument I've ever heard in my life. You're trying to invoke the word "widespread" as if it's some kind of virtue. What a load of crap.

      I am not interested in how many people believe what. I'm only interested in what I believe to be true. So I look at the facts and the opinions and the hints and the allegations and I draw my own conclusions. I couldn't care less if 5 billion peopl
      • That's the most loaded, disrespectful, bullshit argument I've ever heard in my life. You're trying to invoke the word "widespread" as if it's some kind of virtue. What a load of crap.

        Twirp. Its so good to see you're back. I was worried about you. Its been almost 5 days since you've spewed your venom on Slashdot, under your login at least. It was starting to seem like a pretty nice, civil place.

        I am not interested in how many people believe what. I'm only interested in what I believe to be true.

        Ah
        • Ah, classic Twirp. Only he knows the truth, the world revolves around Twirp.

          That is not what he said and you know it. If something is true, it is true no matter how many people believe it is.

          We've been over this before. In fact neither Pakistan or Saudi Arabia have done nearly enough

          Bull crap.

          One of Bin Laden's confidents surrenders today and it appears he will be welcomed back in to the Saudi fold.

          He surrendered on the condition that he would not face the death penalty. He is still facing life
          • That is not what he said and you know it. If something is true, it is true no matter how many people believe it is. ...and only Twirp knows what it is. Actually the world is far to complex for there to be one and only one truth most of the time. Truth depends on what variables you factor in, what facts you know and what you don't, and most of all what perspective you have. People who argue there is only one truth and its their truth tend to be extremists, whether they are Al Qaeda or you and Twirp.

            Peopl
            • Actually the world is far to complex for there to be one and only one truth most of the time. Truth depends on what variables you factor in, what facts you know and what you don't, and most of all what perspective you have.

              That must have been a joke, but I missed the punch line.

              They probably didn't want to be there in the first place, being there made them a target and they don't want to be a proxy target for the stupidity of the Bush administration.

              Then why did they commit troops? Oh yeah, thats rig

      • That's the most loaded, disrespectful, bullshit argument I've ever heard in my life. You're trying to invoke the word "widespread" as if it's some kind of virtue. What a load of crap.

        Nope. You seem to have misunderstood me. Some people doubted that Iraq possessed an arsenal of WMD that represented an immediate threat prior to the attack. But most Americans, and many people around the World were willing to believe Bush, and some of them believed him enough to commit troops -- based on their belief in

        • Some people doubted that Iraq possessed an arsenal of WMD that represented an immediate threat prior to the attack.

          Most people are dumbasses who wouldn't recognize a credible threat to national security if it crawled up their trouser-leg and bit 'em on the ass. What's your point?

          Look, let me put it this way. Do you know what the phrase "missile gap" refers to? Do you know what the historical context of the "missile gap" gambit is? Can you discuss the significance of the "missile gap" gambit in context of
          • "There's only one definition of terrorism"

            Once again the world according to Twirp. Forgive me for not taking the "State Department" as gospel, if your paraphrase was even close, since in their last report on terrorism they were found to have bent the truth more than a little.

            Terrorism has a much broader definition than this. It has both an insurgency form and a state sponsored form. The only simple definition you can reduce it to is that it is a strategy designed to influence people by inducing terror.

          • Look, let me put it this way. Do you know what the phrase "missile gap" refers to? Do you know what the historical context of the "missile gap" gambit is? Can you discuss the significance of the "missile gap" gambit in context of the policies of the Mukhabarat during the late 1990's?

            Missile Gap? Yup. Senator John F. Kennedy claimed the Soviets had more ICBMs than the USA. It turned out not to be true. Missile Gap, Bomber Gap, and Mine Shaft Gap [j-bradford-delong.net]. Know 'em all.

            Missile Gap gambit? Yup. I took th

      • "The enemy is not this terrorist or that terrorist. The enemy is not these terrorists or those terrorists. The enemy is terrorism itself. And wherever there are practitioners or terrorism, wherever there are adherents to the terrorist ideology, we must fight."

        Interesting...and how do you define the "terrorist ideology"? Would this be people who use their limited resources to fight unconventionally against a vastly superior military? Like say, the American revolutionaries?

        You can't fight an ill-defined

  • Never reward a terrorist. The Phillipines will soon be seeing the effect this has at home, as they've got their own Islamic terror problem. Their terrorists will surely take this as a sign of weakness.

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