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Journal the_mad_poster's Journal: How Can There Be Free Will If God Wills Things? 86

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This is something that always bothered me...

Christians talk about "Free Will" (being that our ability to think is the root of all our suffering, after all), but then they also talk about god's influence. What "god wants". What "god commands". People die because it was "god's will".

Excuse me.... but which is it? I mean, I suppose with the first two you could just ignore god, but that's of a strange situation. Wouldn't disobeying the almighty lord be a bit of a sin? In that case, you only have free will in the same sense that big brother says you do. Sure, you CAN choose to disobey, but once the big feller catches up to you, you're going to pay mightily for it, meaning you really never had a choice in which the consequences were solely your responsibility.

The last one seems to completely short circuit the entire concept of human free will. If somebody dies because god wills it, they have no choice. They have no free will. When faced with a mortal situation, they are already marked and nothing they can do will change that because "god willed it".

Perhaps, beyond the repression, violence, and forced ignorance that is the heritage of almost all major religions, the thing that really bothers me the most is the apparent lack of any single, coherent message in them, this being one example of that problem.

This discussion was created by the_mad_poster (640772) for no Foes, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

How Can There Be Free Will If God Wills Things? More

How Can There Be Free Will If God Wills Things?

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  • I've always been baffled by it. Personally, I feel that under Christian mythology, free will cannot exist.

    Let's say for a moment that it can exist. God's "do what I say or you go to Hell... but you have free will!" seems rather like a rapist saying that their victim had free will - she could have resisted and gotten a knife to the throat!

    As for the reasons I don't believe free will can exist Biblically, given that God is supposedly a) all knowing, b) all powerful, and c) creator of all, that means he set
    • Watch "Bruce Almighty". Jim Carey movie, so its funny... but the plot is about these poitns you make.
      • Heh, that was an entertainingly silly movie.

        Morgan Freeman should be God in real life, if for no other reason than the voice.
      • I didn't expect great insight from a comedy, but it was lame to imply that God's intellect and multi-tasking capabilities are so limited, and that's why bad stuff happens to folks. Of course Jim Carrey's character can't handle playing God for a week, because he isn't capable enough.
      • An extremely weak argument. It's so incredibly easy to manipulate people's feelings if we have environmental control.
    • "God's "do what I say or you go to Hell... but you have free will!" seems rather like a rapist saying that their victim had free will"

      Again, I feel obliged to point out that everything I'm saying in this thread applies only to me.

      That said, my particular belief system doesn't include Hell. For one thing, because: I believe that the soul exists since I can see it's effects in the world around me, and since it exists it must be either matter or energy, and I think if it was matter some doctor would have disc
      • I believe that the soul exists since I can see it's effects in the world around me

        Can I ask what those effects are?

        Since when does that mean he's necessarily a micro-manager?

        Irrelevant. Even if, say, he set evolution in motion, he knew exactly what the outcome of that evolution would be. Every atomic interaction that would ever occur for all time. There's only one outcome that will occur, and he knows it.

        Human beings are waaaaaay more complex than addition routines. Human beings have to deal with hundre
        • "Can I ask what those effects are?"

          Sure. People being nice when it's not in their self-interest, and people being mean when that's not in their self-interest. One conserves energy, the other is interpersonal heat-death.

          "There's only one outcome that will occur, and he knows it."

          I disagree. What if he's capable of knowing but chooses not to?

          "We'd be as simple as the calculator app to him."

          Again, I disagree. I think that, even to God, people are more complicated than 1+1.
          • Oh, come off it - this is TOO easy.

            Sure. People being nice when it's not in their self-interest, and people being mean when that's not in their self-interest. One conserves energy, the other is interpersonal heat-death.

            Altruism fits in fine with "survival of the species." You expect species that act in an altruistic manner to survive longer just as any form of cooperative behaviour improves survivability, so evolution would select for such behaviur. To imply otherwise is to be wilfully ignorant of what na

            • Well happy Tuesday to you too, Tom.

              Ahem. IMHO.

              "Altruism fits in fine with "survival of the species.""

              Not all the time, not by any stretch. Too much altruism will get your line of genes permanently discontinued. Give away all your food to your rivals and see where it gets you.

              Also, you completely missed a very important part of what I said - "people being nice when it's not in their self-interest". If your motivation for cooperative behavior is to "improve survivability" then that's just another name for
              • I'll just tackle this one, as its the weakest link:

                I felt the same way as you for a long time. I had some very personal experiences that changed my mind. Until I had those experiences nothing anybody said could have changed my mind. I had to experience God for myself to believe it. I didn't believe in God until I realized he believed in me.

                "Personal experience" is not proof. Its no more acceptable as proof than the people who say they were abducted by aliens and their bodies probed.

                There are a lot of pr

                • I never said it was proof. I've said over and over again in this thread that I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. All I'm trying to do is offer my own perspective.

                  That said...

                  I think the mistakes that atheists make is believing, and I use that word purposefully, that there is nothing outside of logic, that human perception is capable of sensing all the information that the universe has to offer, and that the human intellect is sufficient to figure everything out. This is sheer and utter hubris on a G

                  • that there is nothing outside of logic, that human perception is capable of sensing all the information that the universe has to offer, and that the human intellect is sufficient to figure everything out

                    ... well, this is not the atheist position. Certainly, no atheist that I know has claimed that our perception is capable of sensing all the information the universe has to offer. We can't sense radio waves, for example. As for human intellect, we know that it is limited.

                    Which is why we fall back on logic

                    • "... well, this is not the atheist position. Certainly, no atheist that I know has claimed that our perception is capable of sensing all the information the universe has to offer."

                      It seems to be the underlying philosophy behind all atheist belief. Every time an atheist wants to disprove the existance of God, he uses logic, raionality, science, etc etc... all things that are based on those assumptions I mentioned.

                      "We can't sense radio waves, for example."

                      We perceive it - not with our senses, but with our i

                    • Okay. Prove to me that evil exists.

                      Okay, I'll use the same argument that people who believe in God do - "prove to me it doesn't."

                      Its all lame. A belief is not proof. Atheists don't say you don't have a right to your superstitious beliefs, just that you don't have a right to impose those beliefs on others, and that, in many cases (such as denying gays and lesbians equal rights to marry) you should be polite and keep them to yourselves rather than expose yourselves to ridicule, and (in my jurisdiction, at

          • Sure. People being nice when it's not in their self-interest, and people being mean when that's not in their self-interest. One conserves energy, the other is interpersonal heat-death.

            Altruism benefits society, so there's an evolutionary and societal pressure to care about more than just one's self.

            A dog humping its owner's leg isn't doing anything to further its own survival, either, but I doubt you consider that an example of the dog's soul. It feels good, just as being nice to people does.

            I disagree. Wh
            • I could have sworn I posted this already (or else I had a few too many that night), but it's gone now, so I'll post it again.

              "Altruism benefits society, so there's an evolutionary and societal pressure to care about more than just one's self."

              Ah, but you overlooked that qualifier: "when that's not in their self-interest." Somebody helping somebody in order to help themselves is still being fundamentally selfish.

              "Then he's not all knowing."

              So if you know something but choose not to consider it, you never kn
              • Ah, but you overlooked that qualifier: "when that's not in their self-interest." Somebody helping somebody in order to help themselves is still being fundamentally selfish.

                You said "One conserves energy, the other is interpersonal heat-death." I'm refuting the interpersonal heat-death bit.

                So if you know something but choose not to consider it, you never knew it?

                You said he was choosing not to know, not that he was choosing not to consider it in his decisions.

    • I tentatively concluded that the ultimate act of almightiness is to create something that has free will. After all, we don't really know what this omnipotence stuff IS, do we?

      Then I decided that a much simpler solution that explained much more and didn't contend with all those coliding infinities was that a theistic god (Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, FSM, Our Father Who Art in Heaven - that lot) doesn't exist. Then, everything falls into place, and the free will debate moves entirely into the naturalistic are

  • Calvinists say that you are predestined. Catholics say that such thoughts are heresy.

    But more or less, it just follows the same argument that if god is all good, and god is all mighty, how can evil exist in the world, as if god is all good and all mighty, he could create a world without evil.

    • "how can evil exist in the world"

      Ahem. IMHO.

      a) Because how boring would that be? A world with no evil? Why would anybody have a reason to live?

      b) The whole point of good and evil (IMHO) and of free will is that, as humans, we are free to choose to do many evil things which have great earthly rewards (*cough*ENRON*cough*) or many good things which frequently earn us persecution, destitution, and an early, painful death at the hands of other humans. You can invest for the short term and make all your deci
      • Because how boring would that be? A world with no evil? Why would anybody have a reason to live?

        By that logic, there must be evil in Heaven, or else Heaven will not supply any reason to live there. I don't agree now, and I really don't think I would have agreed when I thought I was a practicing Christian.

        • Firstly, you're assuming there is life in Heaven. Life as we know it, anyway. I don't think that's the case.

          Much of the way we are and relate to the world has to do with the innate entropicness of the universe. One idea I've kicked around for a while is that Heaven and Hell, if they exist, might be places without time and without entropy. On Earth we would get bored living in an entirely "good" world because time would be passing and we would be noticing nothing ever changed. Existence in a place with
      • Heh. But if God is almighty, he could do these things without needing to resort to evil.
        • I disagree. Without spectrums defined by opposites, existence as we know it could not be.

          Again, feel free to disagree.
          • God is almighty. Existance as we know it could be willed without evil. He can literally do anything.
            • Existence could be willed without evil, but that would defeat the purpose. One of the reasons we're here, I think, is to choose for ourselves to reject evil, even though it would bring us great material gain in life.

              Plus, it's not God's job to make your life a better place. That's your job, and he's given you plenty of tools to do it with. And yes, it is challenging. Who would want to play a game that isn't?

              Again, feel free to disagree.
              • You're violating the precepts of the argument.

                God could allow us to live without evil, and yet be allowed to reject evil, because he is all powerful and can do those sorts of things.

                And if God was all good, then he could make everything the best place, and then even better than that. And there wouldn't be any evil.

                • "God could allow us to live without evil, and yet be allowed to reject evil"

                  How could we reject something we weren't allowed to experience? How could we reject something that didn't exist?

                  The universe as it is has rules, and even God has to play by them. Sure, he could have made the universe different, he could have made pi equal 69 and women have three breasts. But it is what it is, and I believe that there's a reason for that. I believe we're not here for anything to be easy. Because that's what your
                  • "The universe as it is has rules, and even God has to play by them." Then God is not all powerful.

                    My argument has nothing to do with "God could make my life perfect in every way but he doesn't so he must not exist/love me". No strawmen please. This is a logical quandry, which I will define again.

                    1. God is all good.
                    2. God is all powerful.
                    3. Since evil exists, god can be neither all good or all powerful.

                    • "Then God is not all powerful."

                      Sure he is - he made the rules. To make another comparison (and not a perfect one), this is like a little kid on a soccer team saying "but the ref has the power to do anything in the game, he can give penalties and stuff, my team is obviously the one that deserves to win, so why doesn't he just give the other team a bunch of penalties so we'll win?" The referees' association made the rules. They could have made them any way they want. In that the RA had ultimate power. Bu
                    • I am not discussing "life experiences". I am talking about the Problem of Evil.

                      The stuff you put down about "1) that evil exists (really, I would LOVE to see anybody prove this); 2) that humans are capable of perceiving and understanding the difference between good and evil; 3) that this perception and understanding has nothing to do with an ultimate moral authority; 4) that logic is sufficient to explain every oberservable phenomenon and 5) that there are no phenomena unobservable by humans." is just th

                    • If you're trying to bore me with this discussion, it's working. See, you keep repeating yourself instead of dealing with anything I actually say. I heard you the first time. I am aware that you think you have presented me with an unsolvable problem. I am aware that in the very selective, narrowly confined set of what you choose to accept as reality, this problem would indeed appear to be unsolvable. I am aware that there are many many problems that appear unsolvable if you limit your scope enough. And
              • BTW - I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm enjoying this. You are up against a powerful argument though. It's called the Problem of Evil [wikipedia.org].
                • "In the philosophy of religion and theology, the problem of evil is the problem of reconciling the existence of evil or suffering in the world with the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god."

                  The assumption that this is based on is that a world with no evil would be better for us than a world with evil. It seems intuitive, but it really would be a very hard argument to make successfully. Because you yourself do not posess the three O's, you'll never know if a world with no evil at all

            • God is almighty. Existance as we know it could be willed without evil. He can literally do anything.

              So he created himself?

              Also, if he could have created a world w/o evil, that makes him a fucking sadist, a worse monster than any human who ever lived.

              Your statements show that either god is not almighty, or he is not worthy of anything but contempt.

              If he existed, I would spit in his eye. After all, if he can do anything, then he could have prevented the situation I read about today, of 8 adults who allo

              • "Your "just god", your "onmipotent god", your "merciful god" doesn't exist."

                How do you know that kid wasn't going to grow up to become the next Jeffrey Dahmer or Adolf Hitler? How do you know that the story of this child's plight won't be so inspirational to somebody somewhere that they'll become the next Mother Theresa or Ghandi and save thousands of people's lives? How do you know that the rest of that poor child's life wouldn't have been even more miserable?

                In short, even though it's a horrible, vile t

                • How do you know that kid wasn't going to grow up to become the next Jeffrey Dahmer or Adolf Hitler?

                  What a LAME line of reasoning - again, it only takes a second to turn it around:

                  That people like Jeffrey Dahlmer et al exist and can do what they do is even more proof that if god want to claim to be omnipotent, merciful, and just, he's a lying sack of shit.

                  More proof that either god

                  1. is not omnipotent
                  2. is a sadist (neither merciful nor just)
                  3. doesn't exist.

                  I've skipped the PROFIT! part - the leeches who

                  • "That people like Jeffrey Dahlmer et al exist and can do what they do is even more proof that if god want to claim to be omnipotent, merciful, and just, he's a lying sack of shit."

                    But again - even though it seems counter-intuitive, what if the existance of Dahmer, in the 20/20 hindsight of history, turns out to have some unexpected and beneficial side effects? What if it turns out to be a net plus? Because the Holocaust happened, the world is now much more keenly aware of and active in trying to prevent g
                    • If your faith is based on personal experience, then its possible you are mistaken because you interpreted events, etc., subjectively (for example, if you became a believer during a time of deep personal conflict, and "heard" or "sensed" that "God had a plan for you").

                      This universe is defined by spectrums, which are in turn defined by opposites. With that given, good and evil must exist here.

                      No, the universe is not defined by spectrums, etc.

                      There is no such physical property as "good" or "evil" - these a

                    • "If your faith is based on personal experience, then its possible you are mistaken because you interpreted events, etc., subjectively"

                      Unlike many atheists, I'm always willing to admit I might be wrong about almost anything. That's the difference between atheists and agnostics. Atheism is just as much a belief system as any theism, because you're not willing to admit that you might be wrong. So I guess there are many areas of life that I'm agnostic about. All I'm positively sure of, spiritually speaking,

                    • "If your faith is based on personal experience, then its possible you are mistaken because you interpreted events, etc., subjectively"

                      Unlike many atheists, I'm always willing to admit I might be wrong about almost anything. That's the difference between atheists and agnostics. Atheism is just as much a belief system as any theism, because you're not willing to admit that you might be wrong. So I guess there are many areas of life that I'm agnostic about. All I'm positively sure of, spiritually speaking, i

              • No strawmen please. This is a logical quandry, which I will define again.

                1. God is all good.
                2. God is all powerful.
                3. Since evil exists, god can be neither all good or all powerful.
                • Works for me. But check this out.
                  1. Satan is all evil
                  2. Satan is all powerful
                  3. Satan allows some good to exist just to get your hopes up, so that it hurts all the more when he crushes them again
                  4. One of his evil tricks is to sucker people into placing false hope in a good, powerful god that will save them
                  It's internally consistent ... unlike the belief in an all-good, all-powerful god.
                  • If Satan was all evil and all powerful, he could allow people to get their hopes up without allowing any good. It is not any more consistent than the belief in a God.
                    • Yeah, but remember, he's a real mother-fucker - he's getting god's hopes up too :-)

                      Nothing worse than turning your enemy's tools (in this case "good") against them. Using "good" to promote evil is a greater, more exquisite evil, n'est pas?

                      Hey, did I just define much of today's organized religion?

                    • Nope. Because he is all powerful, he would not have to resort to good. He could accomplish the same thing with evil. You're forgetting that.
                    • He wouldn't *have* to, but, like I said, it would be more fun/evil to. Sort of like rubbing extra salt into a wound.

                      After all, isn't perverting good the ultimate evil? If its ultimately evil, then it wasn't really good.

                      Think of the times you've tried to do something good, and it turned out into a real fuck-up. The "appearance of good" is a real gotcha.

                    • Nope. The ultimate evil is suffering. But, that's neither here nor there.

                      Essentially, since we have decided that Satan is ALL powerful, and ALL evil, he could create a way to get people to think they are doing good, but actually have the entire process be evil, even what they are thinking, so that there is no good at all. And it would be the worst thing he could do to a person, since he is all powerful and can do anything.

                      Like Master Betty, It is EVIL, it is so EVIL. It is a bad, bad plan, which will

                  • So did Satan create himself?

                    • So did Satan create himself?

                      Okay, time to confess.

                      1. The universe starts with a big bang, end ends with a big implosion, and the cycle repeats
                      2. In the second half of the process, even time runs backwards, in the sense that cause and effect collapse
                      3. As the Stones put it, "Let me introduce myself ..."

                      Now, since we already know that cause and effect do break down under certain conditions, what's so hard about believing either I am the devil himself or that I created him? Think of it - I *could* be telling th

                    • "The universe starts with a big bang, end ends with a big implosion, and the cycle repeats"

                      I agree with this, but let's remember your use of the word "repeats"...

                      "In the second half of the process, even time runs backwards, in the sense that cause and effect collapse"

                      This is a really interesting idea, and one that I'd not previously considered. Not sure I agree with it, but it is... tidy.

                      "Now, since we already know that cause and effect do break down under certain conditions"

                      Gotta stop you here. Let's go
                    • Hey, its all good :-)

                      Cause and effect break down even here on earth under the proper conditions. Look at all the strange results from variations on the "two-slit" experiments, where the path a photon takes through a slit is determined by whether its observed or not, even though the observation only takes place AFTER the photon has passed through the slit and before it hits the detector.

                      So, in a very real sense, cause and effect are just our way of describing something more fundamental that we've only pe

            • He can literally do anything.

              So you're saying God is like Zombo.com [zombo.com]?

              Cheers,

              Ethelred

  • This thoughts in this very JE are the same that snapped me out of *my* blind devotion to a religion that really makes no sense to me. This is merely the tip of the iceberg too.

    The tricky part, a lot of times, when you discuss this with a religious person (for me, in an attempt to "see" what I'm missing) is that they fallback on saying, "I just believe. It's faith." and the debate ends. I find it extremely frustrating.

    Also, throughout the past hundreds of years, revisionism has changed the views of the ch
    • "I frankly don't understand how someone can find a strong "foundation" to base their beliefs on since religion has been, for a very long time now, a moving target."

      Yes to moving target. Much the same as the Constitution is also one. Likewise societal beliefs - religion aside - about such things as the acceptability of homosexuality, existence of witchcraft, etc etc.

      "Some say it's the bible, not the religion that sustains them. Hard to understand as well since the bible has so many holes in it that it's im
      • Yes to moving target. Much the same as the Constitution is also one. Likewise societal beliefs - religion aside - about such things as the acceptability of homosexuality, existence of witchcraft, etc etc.

        More clearly to the point would be it's a reactionary moving target instead of proactively being correct in the first place. at first it's: "God said this, so it's 100% true. If you don't believe it, you're a heretic."

        Then, something is proven contrary to the belief and religion says: "ha ha. no, um--wel
        • "More clearly to the point would be it's a reactionary moving target instead of proactively being correct in the first place. at first it's: "God said this, so it's 100% true. If you don't believe it, you're a heretic.""

          My feeling is that God would never say that anything in life is 100% anything except that he loves you.

          Religion isn't God. Religion is how humankind attempts to deal with God. And like everything related to mankind attempting to deal with anything, it's got upsides and plenty of downsides.
  • This debate exists on all levels of our society, i think. I dunno. I have no coherent answer.

    I am also not christian, which may have something to do with it, i dunno.

    I do know that we all have free will in our society, and yet some people break the law and go to jail.

    My theory goes like this:

    There are a large percentage of situations where the dice get rolled. The tao dictates that good and evil exist, and that acceptance of this is the only true peace.

    I accept that whether i get well is partly gonna be fro
  • ...that you have free will that counteracts the will of God who wills that you have free will that counteracts the will of God... and then the universe imploded. Of course the fundies out there would probably argue that if God wanted to create a paradox like this and have it work both ways, then he could do it. and then the universe explodes. Hey... I think I just figured out what caused the big bang!

  • Moo (Score:2)

    by Chacham ( 981 ) *
    Sure, you CAN choose to disobey, but once the big feller catches up to you, you're going to pay mightily for it, meaning you really never had a choice in which the consequences were solely your responsibility.

    That does not obviate the fact that free will exists. Sure you won't want to hurt yourself by stepping on a tack, but you have the free will to do so.

    If somebody dies because god wills it, they have no choice. They have no free will.

    Life and death are not within free will.
    • The existance of free will is inarguable except in the truly whacky philosophical sense of "am I dreaming or awake". The point is that it's entirely useless to declare that humanity has free will and then set the rules to induce a specific action anyway. Hence the example of Big Brother. Sure, you're free to choose your path, but it better damn well be the one I set you on?

      Or, to frame it differently, do people really have meaningful free will, or is god a jerkoff and just says we do, when we really don't?

      • Re:Moo (Score:2)

        by Chacham ( 981 ) *
        Sure, you're free to choose your path, but it better damn well be the one I set you on?

        Three quick answers (there are more, each addressing a different point). Basically, points to ponder.

        1) Free will is a question of attitude, not action. DS-9 adressed this point indirectly, when The Cisco couldn't change his life, but could change if he'd be happy or not. For example, when he chose to get married.

        2) The religious beliefs that include free-will and a "set path" also include the deity knowing the future. Wh

      • Re:Moo (Score:2)

        by nizo ( 81281 ) *
        That would be an interesting concept of hell. As you wrong other people throughout your life, you're setting yourself up for pain as they retaliate against your soul post mortem.

        Sounds kinda like karma to me :-) Have you seen the movie Flatliners [imdb.com] btw?

    • Sure you won't want to hurt yourself by stepping on a tack, but you have the free will to do so.

      If my aversion to pain that results in not hurting myself is hardwired, though, can it truly be considered free will?
      • Sure. I have an aversion to going outisde when it's 20 below, but I also have an aversion to people suing me because they slipped an fell on my sidewalk. So I go shovel the snow.

        People have aversions to all kinds of things, sometimes they overcome them, sometimes they don't.
        • People have aversions to all kinds of things, sometimes they overcome them, sometimes they don't.

          And the point is, God knew which ones they'd overcome and which ones they wouldn't when he set up the whole system. By God's very definition, he had to know that. He could have changed the setup to cause the other choice, but he didn't - he left it as it was. Thusly, when the choice eventually gets made, it's not the person's free will - it's the predestined outcome setup by God back when he created everythin
          • "God knew which ones they'd overcome and which ones they wouldn't when he set up the whole system."

            I disagree. Again, I don't believe that God is a micromanager. He's much more of a big picture guy.

            Look, I'm not trying to convince you. You can believe whatever you want. I'm just saying what my perspective on things is.
            • Whether or not he meddles in our affairs now is irrelevant if he did indeed set everything up at the beginning.
              • I think what was set up at the beginning was potential energy. I think as the universe and humanity grow, evolve and age into maturity (which I don't think we've even begun to see yet) it will approach an outcome which he has some idea of what it might be. But I don't believe in predestination.

  • Funny you should mention that, we were just discussing free will in Psychology class. As far as I can see, critical thinking is a requirement for free will. Not all people have it. People who are content to let "God" (ie, the leaders of the church) control them have no free will, at least for certain aspects of their lives. I saw one of these automatons yesterday at the grocery store, he was relating his memes to anyone who would listen. It was quite sad, actually.

  • for this discussion to go, but is it an important question? That I don't know, but personally, I don't think so. I do not dwell on whether I have free will, or I am doing what I was ordained to do, because for myself, it is not something I hang my faith on. My faith is dependant on God, Christ, and His works for my salvation.

    But, to answer the question, I tend to think of it as more that God (in my case) pre-ordained the beginning and the end of my trip, and maybe a few stops in between, but He has given
    • I tend to think of it as more that God (in my case) pre-ordained the beginning and the end of my trip, and maybe a few stops in between, but He has given me lots of options on how to get from A to B, and that is where my choice comes in.

      If he created everything and knows everything, though, he knew exactly what would result from what he was placing in motion. That's hardly free will on you part in that case.
      • So, you basically say, I don't have free will because someone else knows how it's going to end?

        Of course I believe if God created everything and knows everything, He would know exactly what would happen, but I am not God, and I do not know what will happen. Which is why I expressed my view on how I personally rationalize the concept of free will and predestination.
        • You don't have free will because, not only does someone else know how it's going to end, but he set up that ending to occur from the beginning of time.

          Of course I believe if God created everything and knows everything, He would know exactly what would happen, but I am not God, and I do not know what will happen.

          Which is precisely the definition of the illusion of free will.

          If a prison lets you break out while monitoring your every move, then sweeps you up later, you may think you escaped, but you didn't rea
  • There is a great deal of presumption that goes on when someone dies and others say it was "God's Will". Does their God really spend that much time worrying about the minutae of how and when each person will die? To assume that everything that happens is per God's Will, a Christian would have to believe that He deliberately set up Adam and Eve to disobey him. We could say His creations were perfect - perfectly flawed so they would perform according to His will even as they exercised Free Will.

    As to how Fr
  • I guess you could say that free will generally doesn't matter once God decides something. It's like saying that you have the free will and you can choose to do anything, but when the 100 ft high tsunami wave (which God willed into existence) comes crashing down on you, you are going to die no matter what free action you chose.

    Of course, this is all just mental masturbation... there's so much wrong and ludicrous about Christianity that the whole free will / predestination / whatever aspect of it is really a
    • Replying to myself... but what I forgot to say which I wanted to (God willed me to leave it out I guess!) is that it's not incongruous from a statistical point of view. So God willed Hurricane Katrina to happen with such a force that people will die. Indirectly, it follows that the people who died did so because of God's will. But you can't really say that Mary Jane Smith of 1234 Main Street was specifically targeted because Mary Jane Smith could have chosen to move to downtown New York four years earlie
  • Just my 2 cents, god doesn't decree on high 'do x or ELSE.' God says, 'if you CHOOSE to DO X, you will Get Y and if you Choose to do P you will get Q.' and god has also said 'the universe works under certain rules, if you were born from dust you will return to dust.'

    People who say 'well his dying was god's will' are just plain stupid, saying that it was Part of His Plan, however is not so stupid, because people are Supposed to die, eventually, when and how god doesn't set in stone, we contribute to when an
  • ...but I'm probably going to do a pretty poor job of explaining it. I guess all I can do is present how I see things.

    I firmly believe that free will exists. I also firmly believe that there is a Big Picture somewhere. How are these compatible?

    Well, if you think that free will exists, then you must either think that anything can be accomplished through free will (in which case you're a Libertarian-with-a-capital-L and I don't want to talk to you), or you must think that reality places boundaries on the ef
  • I'll do my best to answer it.

    In fact, I'll use an example: Jonah.

    God wanted Jonah to become a prophet and minister to the people of Nineveh, and to tell them to repent and come back to God, or else God would destroy them.

    God's will was that Jonah go right way - Jonah's will was to say "phooey on this prophet stuff" and go his own way - in the opposite direction.

    God got his attention, by causing a storm, but finally, Jonah agrees to do what God wants, and God protects him by having a "great fish" swa

  • First you have to define and understand free will before you can decide if it exists.
  • May I recommend Judas Icariot on Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] for a start. And since Christians are debating on this issue for two millenia, then I fear a small JE on it is ahem pointless. Thanks for asking, though. :)
  • This is a complex topic, which I'll try to describe as concretely as possible. I don't talk about this subject much, so my explanations may come out "sideways".

    Your "will" is merely the brain in your head deciding or telling your body what to do. Your brain is a complex biological system which is physical in nature. Further, everything about you is physical in nature. There is nothing outside nature, aka supernatural. There is no spirit, no soul. What you see is what you get. Everything about you

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