by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Friday December 19, 2003 @01:16PM (#7765783)
My own experience relating to this:
1) Medium to large size business do not trust individuals: only other businesses are trusted. A local Goodwill (yeah, really, Goodwill) used to outsource work to me on a very regular basis. I'd give them plenty of freebies (again, it's Goodwill) along with the outsourced work. Eventually they hired someone to take care of internal matters and the outsourced work finally stopped (he had a gripe with me apparently). The CEO didn't question his judgment because he was moving to Microsoft products and outsourcing to larger companies. It didn't matter that they were paying six times (I kid you not) as much for the same work, their firewall had been removed (the new guy didn't understand how to manage it), and they removed a perfectly stable Linux box in favor of Exchange (easier to maintain for him, but DID go down frequently). None of this mattered. The CEO and kin felt more comfortable with larger businesses despite the problems. They care about feeling better, not about how much they're paying or how often something goes down. They will excuse ANYTHING if they're happy.
2) This (security assessment) is a new tactic from a small group of companies/individuals that have been around for a while. Years ago I handled support for a local ISP. The ISP had (shame on them) sold bandwidth to an adjacent office which was plopped right on the main network (no bridge/firewall/etc). This office had a MUD server which was compromised and made a really great packet sniffer. Account info was snagged and used....by a **network security firm** working out of Canada. They changed a few passwords to get attention, then e-mailed the owner of the ISP with a 'Hey, we didn't do anything but we wanted you to know your setup is easily corrupted. We can supply you with services to prevent this in the future.'. It's like, some kind of dorky geek mafia.
The original submitter could be a dick or a great employee. Either way, it doesn't matter because these security goons are out there and using a much better tactic to get business. It's pathetic, but it's real and there are enough ignorant businesses out there to make it profitable. All the education in the world won't help some employers, they're just too fucking stupid. Maybe the submitter's best bet is to hook up with one of these shitty security firms....join 'em before they beat you out of the market (re: multiple bad security profiles).
I think you're right, part of what's going on here is a cultural divide that exists in many companies between the managers in suits and the admins in the back cubes watching the network. In some offices these two types hardly ever speak to each other: no kinship, no trust, no loyalty. Both parties bear the responsibility to walk across the office and speak directly to each other once in a while.
My years in sys admin middle management taught me that some admins just don't want to speak the managers in suits. They automatically distrust the management, they resent that anyone who knows less about networking is being paid more and is manager of many departments. They view anyone who meets with management and eats lunch with management as a kiss-ass or someone not to be trusted. This to me is exactly the kind of attitude that holds people back from getting promotions, being recognized, and makes one more vulnerable to becoming a victim of downsizing. If management has no idea who you are and what you do all day then you are effectively nobody to them, you are just another labor expense on the accounting books.
The easiest way to let management know that you have value is find a problem, and don't just whine about, do a little homework and propose a practical solution along with some numbers as to how much it will cost/save the company. If your department manager is the type of prick who would try to steal credit for your brilliant ideas then walk around his desk and talk directly to his boss about your brilliant ideas... if you have enough of those conversations with that boss you may even find yourself being promoted to replace the prick who stole credit for all of your ideas. Don't be someone who complains all the time, try to be someone who has solutions rather than complaints. Leaders have answers, followers have complaints. Managers value people they can go to for answers.
So in summary if you make no attempt to talk to management then don't be surprised if they become more comfortable dealing with some out-sourced vendor then they are dealing with you... don't be surprised if someday the managers you hardly ever spoke to tell you to pack up your desk.
What a great response! If I had the points, I'd mod ya up!
I can't stress enough that most companies generally don't care about how skilled you are or how well you can do your job, except at your interview. Even then, if you have a pre-existing relationship, even your skill sets can be largely ignored. Time and time again, it's made very clear that business is about how you make someone feel. It's about trust in a relationship and building that relationship to begin with. If people don't know you, they
If your department manager is the type of prick who would try to steal credit for your brilliant ideas then walk around his desk and talk directly to his boss about your brilliant ideas... if you have enough of those conversations with that boss you may even find yourself being promoted to replace the prick who stole credit for all of your ideas.
The flaw in this plan is that most geeks, in my experience, have no desire to be promoted to management. We just want to do the work. The dream job for someone who is generally attracted to network security work is to be left alone most of the time by a boss who can realize that the fact that they haven't had to concern themselves with network security is a Good Thing. Then they throw more money.
The worst bosses I've ever worked for have been fellow geeks promoted above their social skill set. They are usually grumpy that they no longer get to play with the technology, and have to spend their days in meetings.
"The dream job... is to be left alone most of the time".
This is just the kind of thing that creates the divide between the front-line tech folks and less technically savvy managers. We fear what we don't understand and all that.
The way to remove the fear, and establish confidence in your competence, is through communication. Probably the most important skill for a tech worker these days is the ability to freely translate between geek and whatever the local spoken tongue is.
I've mostly worked as a DBA and programmer, and my experience mimicks yours. On the one hand, if your database never goes down, you 'don't do anything' If it screws up all the time and you have tons of downtime, but you stay up all night to fix it, you are 'committed'. Managers do tend to think in those terms...b/c in their world it's probably true.
So it's easy to get bitter, and try to avoid 'them'. It's also career suicide!
You make a great point, but I've personally been in situations where management actively discouraged attempts to break through this divide.
Sometimes, it's not the people on the "tech side" of the fence who have the communications problem. I recall wanting to bring up an issue directly with our company's C.E.O. - because I knew it was going to get buried or spun into some watered-down idea invented by my manager if I went through the usual "chain of command" with it. I finally had a good opportunity when
The C.E.O. stopped me after only a couple sentences, telling me he didn't want to hear any more about it - and that I needed to discuss it with my direct manager instead.
If there's one thing most executives have in common, it's that they are very busy people. Every case is different, but in most cases they prefer to receive their information filtered through people they know and trust.
I don't know the specifics of your case, but for all I know the CEO knows you are a complainer and he was just trying to
You know what? I think I *would* actually like to see annual reviews conducted "in the open". Hold a meeting for that purpose, and let the manager address each individual working for him/her, and go over what he/she sees as areas needing improvement, as well as areas each person is doing well in.
One of the biggest things that harbors distrust and resentment in the corporate environment is secret-keeping and subsequent rumor-mongering. Every time you see someone pulled into the bosses' office and the doo
Well, popular or not, I can tell you that quite a few co-workers expressed similar feelings on the salary issue. I certainly wasn't the "lone exception".
IMHO, there's a serious double-standard going on with regards to pay. People act like what they earn should be a highly-guarded secret, yet the same folks who are most concerned about this buy conspicuous, high-ticket items to show off their wealth. (EG. You don't *need* a new luxury sedan to get to and from work. A cheap Chevy or Ford would do just f
I think the "salaries should be kept confidential" idea is a company policy and most employees are willing to go along with it.
It's basically the law of supply and demand. You could have got X, but you were willing to settle for Y. Some people play the gambit of threatening to quit, and these people get paid more. (But sometimes their employer will call their bluff.)
In my last job, I definitely suffered from not becoming friendly with upper management. I didn't get laid off, but after a few years, I was making a lot less money than I should have been. The people who played politics definitely got ahead. But usually they had a lot of people complaining about them behind their backs.
I was a longtime peon at my last job, but I was quickly promoted to middle management at my current one. I know that I did a good job right from the start, but I'm also fairly sure that goin
Promptness is its own reward, if one lives by the clock instead of the sword.
I don't trust you (Score:5, Insightful)
I doo trust a company in India, tho.
Re:I don't trust you (Score:5, Interesting)
1) Medium to large size business do not trust individuals: only other businesses are trusted. A local Goodwill (yeah, really, Goodwill) used to outsource work to me on a very regular basis. I'd give them plenty of freebies (again, it's Goodwill) along with the outsourced work. Eventually they hired someone to take care of internal matters and the outsourced work finally stopped (he had a gripe with me apparently). The CEO didn't question his judgment because he was moving to Microsoft products and outsourcing to larger companies. It didn't matter that they were paying six times (I kid you not) as much for the same work, their firewall had been removed (the new guy didn't understand how to manage it), and they removed a perfectly stable Linux box in favor of Exchange (easier to maintain for him, but DID go down frequently). None of this mattered. The CEO and kin felt more comfortable with larger businesses despite the problems. They care about feeling better, not about how much they're paying or how often something goes down. They will excuse ANYTHING if they're happy.
2) This (security assessment) is a new tactic from a small group of companies/individuals that have been around for a while. Years ago I handled support for a local ISP. The ISP had (shame on them) sold bandwidth to an adjacent office which was plopped right on the main network (no bridge/firewall/etc). This office had a MUD server which was compromised and made a really great packet sniffer. Account info was snagged and used....by a **network security firm** working out of Canada. They changed a few passwords to get attention, then e-mailed the owner of the ISP with a 'Hey, we didn't do anything but we wanted you to know your setup is easily corrupted. We can supply you with services to prevent this in the future.'. It's like, some kind of dorky geek mafia.
The original submitter could be a dick or a great employee. Either way, it doesn't matter because these security goons are out there and using a much better tactic to get business. It's pathetic, but it's real and there are enough ignorant businesses out there to make it profitable. All the education in the world won't help some employers, they're just too fucking stupid. Maybe the submitter's best bet is to hook up with one of these shitty security firms....join 'em before they beat you out of the market (re: multiple bad security profiles).
Sorry for the long rant...too much coffee
Re:I don't trust you (Score:5, Informative)
My years in sys admin middle management taught me that some admins just don't want to speak the managers in suits. They automatically distrust the management, they resent that anyone who knows less about networking is being paid more and is manager of many departments. They view anyone who meets with management and eats lunch with management as a kiss-ass or someone not to be trusted. This to me is exactly the kind of attitude that holds people back from getting promotions, being recognized, and makes one more vulnerable to becoming a victim of downsizing. If management has no idea who you are and what you do all day then you are effectively nobody to them, you are just another labor expense on the accounting books.
The easiest way to let management know that you have value is find a problem, and don't just whine about, do a little homework and propose a practical solution along with some numbers as to how much it will cost/save the company. If your department manager is the type of prick who would try to steal credit for your brilliant ideas then walk around his desk and talk directly to his boss about your brilliant ideas... if you have enough of those conversations with that boss you may even find yourself being promoted to replace the prick who stole credit for all of your ideas. Don't be someone who complains all the time, try to be someone who has solutions rather than complaints. Leaders have answers, followers have complaints. Managers value people they can go to for answers.
So in summary if you make no attempt to talk to management then don't be surprised if they become more comfortable dealing with some out-sourced vendor then they are dealing with you... don't be surprised if someday the managers you hardly ever spoke to tell you to pack up your desk.
Re:I don't trust you (Score:2)
I can't stress enough that most companies generally don't care about how skilled you are or how well you can do your job, except at your interview. Even then, if you have a pre-existing relationship, even your skill sets can be largely ignored. Time and time again, it's made very clear that business is about how you make someone feel. It's about trust in a relationship and building that relationship to begin with. If people don't know you, they
Re:I don't trust you (Score:5, Insightful)
The flaw in this plan is that most geeks, in my experience, have no desire to be promoted to management. We just want to do the work. The dream job for someone who is generally attracted to network security work is to be left alone most of the time by a boss who can realize that the fact that they haven't had to concern themselves with network security is a Good Thing. Then they throw more money.
The worst bosses I've ever worked for have been fellow geeks promoted above their social skill set. They are usually grumpy that they no longer get to play with the technology, and have to spend their days in meetings.
Re:I don't trust you (Score:1)
This is just the kind of thing that creates the divide between the front-line tech folks and less technically savvy managers. We fear what we don't understand and all that.
The way to remove the fear, and establish confidence in your competence, is through communication. Probably the most important skill for a tech worker these days is the ability to freely translate between geek and whatever the local spoken tongue is.
Going back to the original th
Re:I don't trust you (Score:1)
re: cultural divide in the office (Score:2)
Sometimes, it's not the people on the "tech side" of the fence who have the communications problem. I recall wanting to bring up an issue directly with our company's C.E.O. - because I knew it was going to get buried or spun into some watered-down idea invented by my manager if I went through the usual "chain of command" with it. I finally had a good opportunity when
Re: cultural divide in the office (Score:2)
The C.E.O. stopped me after only a couple sentences, telling me he didn't want to hear any more about it - and that I needed to discuss it with my direct manager instead.
If there's one thing most executives have in common, it's that they are very busy people. Every case is different, but in most cases they prefer to receive their information filtered through people they know and trust.
I don't know the specifics of your case, but for all I know the CEO knows you are a complainer and he was just trying to
Re: cultural divide in the office (Score:2)
One of the biggest things that harbors distrust and resentment in the corporate environment is secret-keeping and subsequent rumor-mongering. Every time you see someone pulled into the bosses' office and the doo
Re: cultural divide in the office (Score:2)
-a
Re: cultural divide in the office (Score:2)
IMHO, there's a serious double-standard going on with regards to pay. People act like what they earn should be a highly-guarded secret, yet the same folks who are most concerned about this buy conspicuous, high-ticket items to show off their wealth. (EG. You don't *need* a new luxury sedan to get to and from work. A cheap Chevy or Ford would do just f
Re: cultural divide in the office (Score:2)
It's basically the law of supply and demand. You could have got X, but you were willing to settle for Y. Some people play the gambit of threatening to quit, and these people get paid more. (But sometimes their employer will call their bluff.)
-a
Re:I don't trust you (Score:2)
I was a longtime peon at my last job, but I was quickly promoted to middle management at my current one. I know that I did a good job right from the start, but I'm also fairly sure that goin