The matrix was a good movie but come one thats it a movie. it had so many holes in the plot like why the robots did not just switch too nuclear or something far more powerfull then sucking body heat from people who are living in a virtual world. It seems like every week or so slashdot posts a story about some long ass report about how the matrix could be real. You dont have to justify likeing a movie, just enjoy the movie how it is a kung foo/super human/slowmotion fights. reminds me of that theme song from
Better than suggesting alternative power, why doesn't anyone ever point out the laws of thermodynamics?
This is always what got me about The Matrix. There is even a comment somewhere along in the first movie about how the living are fed the waste of the dead. Well, great, but what about conservation of energy? Where is this energy actually coming from? In our normal ecosystem, it comes from the sun via photosynthesis. Here, no sun, no plants, people eating people...sounds like perpetual motion.
And even if we do accept that animals can somehow power these machines, why don't they just use pigs or cows or something? Or give lobotomies on birth? Eh?
But as you said, quit thinking about it all seriously, and just enjoy the movie. It's a vehicle, and not every aspect should be taken at face value or should be expected to make perfect sense.
Exactly... it shouldn't have been "What is the Matrix?" but "Why is the Matrix?". We have a number of AIs that are so ruthless (from humanity's standpoint) that they see no problem using human's as a fuel source, yet they let them "live their lives" inside the Matrix.
From the point where the first guy who could manipulate the Matrix freely showed up, they should have been giving frontal lobotomies to all the new fuel cells.
Or the robots could have "fled" to space, leaving behind the humans who just ruined
Of course, the notion that the Matrix uses people to gain real energy disobeys Thermodynamics. Someone above made a comment about using humans as "processors", which would have made a much more plausible technical reason for the AI keeping the humans around. But I think this discussion misses the real reason that they went with the power rational with The Matrix. I feel that they wanted to make a metaphorical statement about how people fuel "the Matrix" in reality. Given the heavy Gnostical and Buddhist themes in the movie, we can understand that they mean to show that when we make the choice to believe in reality, we reinforce its power, not only over us, but over others as well. The more we believe that what we see and discern has meaning and substance, the more we get locked into the cycle of arising desires and beliefs. This, in Buddhist terminology, turns the wheel of life by forming a duality between that which we want and that which we do not want, which generates karma and hence causes reality to appear right before our eyes. Thus the power metaphor seems appropriate. Those "plugged into the Matrix", i.e. those who continue to believe in reality, "power the Matrix", i.e. cause the wheel of rebirth to turn. Honestly, I would feel surprised if the W bros didn't heavily debate using a flawed physical representation ("power plants") over using a much more profound, but subtler, idea of humans adding processing power as a reason for imprisonment. They must have decided that the computer metaphor would get lost on most of the audience and thus dumbed it down. You notice that the "power plant" idea does not appear in the 2nd movie at all except for an oblique reference to "you need us". They merely used it as a crutch to help people suspend disbelief while watching the movie.
By understanding the Message of The Matrix, you will come to understand many of the logical inconsistencies in the film. Everything in that movie got put there for a reason and the W bros felt no shame altering some of the content so more people would understand the Message. So while it may ire geeks, it makes the movie easier to swallow for people new to these sorts of ideas. I personally just pretend that Morphius said, "Humans can perform up to 10^5 Teraflops (or whatever) of complex operations that the robots steal to add to their available processing power." I think you can see how this would require a much longer dialog between Neo and Morphius to inform the average viewer of what that means.
Oh, finally somebody posted a comment that shows they were thinking! Thank you for paying attention in college!
Of course, the real problem with the Matrix comes to why there had to be a simulation "sideshow" for the humans in the first place. I mean, the Matrix program existed only for their amusement, and it seems like a lot of energy and computational power got used up to that end. Why go through all the bother? Why not lobotomize them and have them exist as heat-producting vegetables?
The idea as I take it, is that humans don't produce enough power when they aren't stimulated properly. The simulation is to keep their power output at peek capacity.
I had proposed the idea that the humans could be Pentiums instead of batteries. It's not a bad way to get around the "battery" plot device. They programs weren't lying, they were misunderstood. They said power, the humans assumed they meant electricity not processing power on which they run (that 80% of the brain that you never use (95% for
According to the Architect, the Matrix exists because people choose it to exist. Reality forms because we choose it too according to Buddhist philosophy. If you notice, the Matrix spends a bunch of time talking about choice. So the why of the "sideshow" stems entirely from the choice of the humans to believe in the Matrix. Thus any hole in the movie plot stems from the disconnect of these ideas and the vechicle they chose to express these ideas, i.e. a future robot war.
> Someone above made a comment about using humans > as "processors", which would have made a much > more plausible technical reason for the AI > keeping the humans around
It would certainly fit in with agents taking over anything "still hardwired to the system", i.e. programming the wetware of a copper top's brain, overlaying the agent's mind so the agent could take over their avatar.
Remember the Woman in Red scene?
Which reminds me, this was left on the cutting room floor, for obvious reasons:
I agree. The metaphor works so much better it seems impossible to me that they did not think it up and dismiss it as too complicated. However I never have seen anyone ask this question of them. If I had one thing to ask about the Matrix, that question would get ranked as the first.
It's hilarious how many times (like the original 'why ohh why') post people complain about "all the plot holes" in the original Matrix, and they all only ever name one plot hole, and it's the same one, the people-as-batteries thing. I'd think if it had lots of them, there'd be some variation in which one people complain about.
And then people like corporate mofo insist on over-intellectualizing the explanation. Just like parent:
But I think this discussion misses the real reason that they went with the pow
I liked several of the points you made! They of course do make implications that the average human does have as much control over the Matrix as a cow in a stockyard. They definately point to the dehumanizing nature of the Matrix and conversely the need for even its Agents to regain their humanity from it. I feel a very strong critisim comming from the movie towards corporate culture.
However, I think you should realize that you would have a very hard time over-intellectualizing this movie. It holds many la
a quote from one of the films is "humans define thier existance through misery and suffering". what better way to occupy the 1% who dont accept their programming than to give them something to fight for.
it doesnt have to work physically, it serves a different purpose:)
Honestly, I would feel surprised if the W bros didn't heavily debate using a flawed physical representation ("power plants") over using a much more profound, but subtler, idea of humans adding processing power as a reason for imprisonment.
What do you think?
Waaay back when the first movie came out, the whatisthematrix.com website had a whole bunch of "in the world of" stories and comics from various authors and artists. It was *very* apparent that the original design was that humans were CPU power for t
Wow, that sounds fascinating. I would so much prefer to read a novel about the world of the Matrix than watch a movie. I'm surprised they haven't had a noveliziation of it, much like there are all kinds of Star Trek and Star Wars books out there. Hopefully they'll start licensing that kind of stuff after the third film.
The Animatrix shows that the Robots are truly intelligent and emotional, that they wish to make peace with the humans. The robots had no taste for genocide, so enslavement was safer. I think the robots felt that they were saving the humans from destroying themselves. The Matrix killed two birds with one stone, it kept humanity from ruining everything, and offered a fuel source.
I think the architects comment about levels of existence the robots would be satisfied with, hints that the robots use other pow
My guess is that the humans "enslaved" themselves to survive some sort of ecological disaster. They set up the matrix to keep humanity alive and set up the rebellion so that after it was safe to live on the surface, there would be someone on the outside to free everyone in the power plant.
Take a step back even further: Why did the humans black out the Sun?
Setting off EMP blasts would have most likely disabled the machines (most likely human machines as well, but those could be replaced in time).
I didn't quite get it why they just tried to block out the Sun, it must have been clear t them that this would destroy their own eco system and as such their very own existance. No?
To troll or not to troll? If you are for real, then surely you would have read some replies to there Matrix questions before. In the first matrix, the matrix is being explained by Morpehous, someone who doesn't really understand the matrix, and misguided by a number of misconceptions. It's like explaining to you how your computer works incorrectly, it doesn't stop it from working!
I was under the impression that "humans powering the matrix" more referrered to their neural pathways being used as a gigacluster...the body heat is a handy dandy by product....and frontal lobots would kinda be like clocking an amd 3200 to 33mhz
This is the same sort of idea you get in Dan Simmons' Hyperion books - that AI are usings humans (first by using spare brain 'clock cycles' when they're going through farcaster gates and then through the cruciform symbiotes) to perform calculations for them.
In my opinion, this idea makes for a more coherent and interesting plot; shame the W brothers went with the power idea.
Where is this energy actually coming from? In our normal ecosystem, it comes from the sun via photosynthesis.
(Offtopic, but this is a common fallacy and this is news for nerds...)
Actually, the Earth radiates slightly more energy than it receives from the Sun. If it didn't radiate all the energy, it would get very hot, very quickly. (The excess ratiation os from nuclear decays in the Earth's crust.)
The difference is that the Sun is hot and the Earth is (comparatively) cold. The difference is
Wrong again. This has nothing to do with entropy. Energy does not have entropy. Only systems have entropy. When you say energy has low entropy, you are actually describing the system.
This issue therefore has everything to do with power... the rate of energy transfer to the Earth. Considering your water example, the water is like the earth. It can absorb energy. At the same time, it dissipates energy.
If the dissipation rate of energy is less than the absorption rate of energy, then the water will ev
Of course, which is why I do believe I mentioned alternative feul sources (or did I forget that late last night?) such as various diminishing sources like nuclear, coal, and oil, as well, I suppose, as things like geothermal power (currently used in places like Iceland).
This still misses the mark, though. All of these technologies would be far more efficient if used directly, say, with thermocouples picking up the geothermal energy, than by somehow being used in some sort of modified photosynthetic proce
After watching Reloaded, it seems to me that the power generation thing is probably just a deception. One of the sub-themes of Reloaded was symbiosis between humans and the machines. In the whole talk that Neo and Governor WhatsHisFace have in the industrial part of Zion, its obvious how, even outside the Matrix, humans depend on machines to survive.
I think in the next movie, we'll find out why the machines need humans to survive, and its going to be something innate to humans but impossible for machine
A lot of people get hung up on the human power plant issue with the Matrix. However, they did try to cover the fact that humans would make a poor power source...
When Morpheus is explaining to Neo that he is a Duracell, he makes that comment that "...combined with a form of Fusion, the machines found all the power they would ever need".
The assumption that humans are some form of required ingredient for fusion is a little silly, but less so than the idea that I could plug an extension cord into my ass to po
In the first movie, when Morpheus is explaining the Matrix, he says that the machines get their energy from the humans, combined with a form of fusion.
Whether the fusion is taking place in their bodies, or the human's minds are being used as parallel processing to control reaction, or whatever, the humans are not the direct source of energy.
why ohh why.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:5, Interesting)
This is always what got me about The Matrix. There is even a comment somewhere along in the first movie about how the living are fed the waste of the dead. Well, great, but what about conservation of energy? Where is this energy actually coming from? In our normal ecosystem, it comes from the sun via photosynthesis. Here, no sun, no plants, people eating people...sounds like perpetual motion.
And even if we do accept that animals can somehow power these machines, why don't they just use pigs or cows or something? Or give lobotomies on birth? Eh?
But as you said, quit thinking about it all seriously, and just enjoy the movie. It's a vehicle, and not every aspect should be taken at face value or should be expected to make perfect sense.
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:2, Interesting)
From the point where the first guy who could manipulate the Matrix freely showed up, they should have been giving frontal lobotomies to all the new fuel cells.
Or the robots could have "fled" to space, leaving behind the humans who just ruined
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:5, Interesting)
By understanding the Message of The Matrix, you will come to understand many of the logical inconsistencies in the film. Everything in that movie got put there for a reason and the W bros felt no shame altering some of the content so more people would understand the Message. So while it may ire geeks, it makes the movie easier to swallow for people new to these sorts of ideas. I personally just pretend that Morphius said, "Humans can perform up to 10^5 Teraflops (or whatever) of complex operations that the robots steal to add to their available processing power." I think you can see how this would require a much longer dialog between Neo and Morphius to inform the average viewer of what that means.
What do you think?
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Crulx
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:2)
Of course, the real problem with the Matrix comes to why there had to be a simulation "sideshow" for the humans in the first place. I mean, the Matrix program existed only for their amusement, and it seems like a lot of energy and computational power got used up to that end. Why go through all the bother? Why not lobotomize them and have them exist as heat-producting vegetables?
And don't say:
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:1)
If not for using our brains, I think the machines just like to learn from us.
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:1)
I had proposed the idea that the humans could be Pentiums instead of batteries. It's not a bad way to get around the "battery" plot device. They programs weren't lying, they were misunderstood. They said power, the humans assumed they meant electricity not processing power on which they run (that 80% of the brain that you never use (95% for
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:1)
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Jt Gleason
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:2, Funny)
> as "processors", which would have made a much
> more plausible technical reason for the AI
> keeping the humans around
It would certainly fit in with agents taking over anything "still hardwired to the system", i.e. programming the wetware of a copper top's brain, overlaying the agent's mind so the agent could take over their avatar.
Remember the Woman in Red scene?
Which reminds me, this was left on the cutting room floor, for obvious reasons:
Mo
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:1)
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Jt Gleason
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:1)
And then people like corporate mofo insist on over-intellectualizing the explanation. Just like parent:
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:1)
However, I think you should realize that you would have a very hard time over-intellectualizing this movie. It holds many la
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:1)
a quote from one of the films is "humans define thier existance through misery and suffering". what better way to occupy the 1% who dont accept their programming than to give them something to fight for.
it doesnt have to work physically, it serves a different purpose :)
dms0
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:2)
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Jt Gleason
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:3, Informative)
Honestly, I would feel surprised if the W bros didn't heavily debate using a flawed physical representation ("power plants") over using a much more profound, but subtler, idea of humans adding processing power as a reason for imprisonment.
What do you think?
Waaay back when the first movie came out, the whatisthematrix.com website had a whole bunch of "in the world of" stories and comics from various authors and artists. It was *very* apparent that the original design was that humans were CPU power for t
Re:why ohh why Does the Matrix need People? (Score:1)
Animatrix answers (Score:1)
Re:Animatrix answers (Score:2)
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:1)
Setting off EMP blasts would have most likely disabled the machines (most likely human machines as well, but those could be replaced in time).
I didn't quite get it why they just tried to block out the Sun, it must have been clear t them that this would destroy their own eco system and as such their very own existance. No?
Oh well, it's just a movie.
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:2)
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:1)
So, if Morpheus existed in our world, he would work at Radio Shack, or maybe Best Buy
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:1)
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:1)
Entropy, not energy [Re:why ohh why..] (Score:1)
(Offtopic, but this is a common fallacy and this is news for nerds...)
Actually, the Earth radiates slightly more energy than it receives from the Sun. If it didn't radiate all the energy, it would get very hot, very quickly. (The excess ratiation os from nuclear decays in the Earth's crust.)
The difference is that the Sun is hot and the Earth is (comparatively) cold. The difference is
Re:Entropy, not energy [Re:why ohh why..] (Score:0)
This issue therefore has everything to do with power... the rate of energy transfer to the Earth. Considering your water example, the water is like the earth. It can absorb energy. At the same time, it dissipates energy.
If the dissipation rate of energy is less than the absorption rate of energy, then the water will ev
Re:Entropy, not energy [Re:why ohh why..] (Score:2)
This still misses the mark, though. All of these technologies would be far more efficient if used directly, say, with thermocouples picking up the geothermal energy, than by somehow being used in some sort of modified photosynthetic proce
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:1)
I think in the next movie, we'll find out why the machines need humans to survive, and its going to be something innate to humans but impossible for machine
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:1)
When Morpheus is explaining to Neo that he is a Duracell, he makes that comment that "...combined with a form of Fusion, the machines found all the power they would ever need".
The assumption that humans are some form of required ingredient for fusion is a little silly, but less so than the idea that I could plug an extension cord into my ass to po
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:1)
Whether the fusion is taking place in their bodies, or the human's minds are being used as parallel processing to control reaction, or whatever, the humans are not the direct source of energy.
Re:why ohh why.. (Score:0)
You don't read Slashdot much, do you? People point out the laws of thermodynamics EVERY SINGLE TIME the Matrix is mentioned.