I believe it is possible in 2199 for an advanced computer to simulate an existence like SimCity.
However, if everyone is a digital projection controlled by a computer program, then how is it the humans inside the matrix are capable of independent thought? Why isn't it like "Big Brother" in George Orwell's 1984, where the Thought Police were always watching for crimethink? Even if the computers' super-advanced AI engine could simulate thoughts *for* the human, and trick them into thinking they came up with it themselves, then why would the system allow a human to discover what is outside the Matrix? Is there a certain amount of "tolerance" built into the system? I guess that would explain the need for "agents."
...But if no one was allowed to think a "wrong" thought...there would be no law enforcement, but no one would care because they wouldn't need to be taught about obeying the rules because no one would ever think about breaking them (The Pre-Crime Division would take care of that);)
Soo...this goes back to my initial inquiry -- where does the independent thought come from? Is it somehow hardwired to the person's brain through the matrix? If so, they need subconscious experiences (daydreams, nightmares, etc.) in order to have independent thought. So the Matrix must have had a certain level of tolerance built in.
But.... if the Matrix *was* built by a race of cruel machines designed to control humans, then why was the Matrix programmed the way it is? Are they torturing humans with a life they once knew, before AI came into play and destroyed that which they had?
All this makes me want to see "Revolutions." I hope they answer all these questions, like "Who Created The Matrix?" It's too human, too sympathetic to be built by cold, heartless machines. There is religion in the matrix, so someone had to program that in.
If you think back to simple programming basics,
if you want everyone to think the same, declare thoughts[] as
private static thought[]
if you want independant thought
private thought[]...
sooo...
is deja vu when the makers of the matrix stuffed up with the pointers to our thoughts?:)
My theory is that most of the processing is done by the minds of the people that inhabit it. That is why things that should be unbending like laws of physics are quite malleable. This is what the people of the Matrix are really for, some kind of processing job, not a power source. The power source idea doesn't make thermodynamic sense and the architect just kind of brushed aside Neo's assertions that the architect needs people to survive.
...But if no one was allowed to think a "wrong" thought...there would be no law enforcement, but no one would care because they wouldn't need to be taught about obeying the rules because no one would ever think about breaking them (The Pre-Crime Division would take care of that);)
Wasn't that the premise of the original matrix (the one built prior to the trilogy)? It was a paradise, but the problem was that no one believed it and so massive amounts of people would wake from it. Hence the reason why the second matrix was built (going back to Agent Smith's description in the first movie).
I always thought the matrix was more a playground for individual minds to play in. If you set up an environment that is engineered to look like our world, place the minds in the system with some initial parameters (e.g. you are a programmer looking for work and like potato chips and coffee, etc) and then let those objects loose in the system, things should flow fairly smoothly. The matrix was more like a drug to keep the minds of their batteries happy basically, and the reason they chose this section of our history is that it was "the height of our civilization". But even Neo has a choice by the architect in the second movie.
I would say that control came by limiting choices. This comes from the societal structure that is put in place, something which most people are more than happy to live within. The few that refused to accept that were shown a different reality (i.e. unplugged from the matrix). However, the one wrench that Matrix:Reloaded tossed into the mix was Neo's ability to sense the machines on the other side. This would indicate that the true architects of the matrix built a buffer zone in which those minds that didn't believe the first matrix would wake up into the second thus saving them as a power source for a while longer and ensuring that every once and awhile you could flush those who would attempt to destroy your creation. By controlling the resistance you have complete control as Orwell showed us in 1984.
people are more than happy to live within. The few that refused to accept that were shown a different reality (i.e. unplugged from the matrix). However, the one wrench that Matrix:Reloaded tossed into the mix was Neo's ability to sense the machines on the other side. This would indicate that the true architects of the matrix built a buffer zone in which those minds that didn't believe the first matrix would wake up into the second thus saving them as a power source for a while longer and ensuring that
But what if there is no "buffer zone". Why isn't it possible that Neo has become so attuned to the Matrix that he is actually able to hack in without the help of computers and an operator? Once inside the Matrix he could certainly stop the sentinels as he could find a way through the security systems in place in the matrix.
I think that Neo's connection to the matrix is shared by Bane as well. That is why they are both in commas, and that is why they both do seemingly impossible things (Bane setting off an
I agree with you. We've already seen impossible things happen in "the real world" like Trinity bringing Neo back to life with a kiss in the first movie, and Neo bringing Trinity back to life in the second movie, and Smith putting himself in a human body. Why can't another impossible thing, like Neo controlling machines happen in the real world?
The Matrix obviously takes much from kung fu and anime movies. In those kinds of movies, when you're well trained and "enlightened" you can do all kinds of crazy
Actually, the architect pretty much tells Neo what's up. When Neo makes his choice, then 'exits' the matrix...he only exits the matrix in the matrix...he's still in the matrix! That's why he still has his powers. The architect mentions this with his speech about having to create a matrix where everyone has the choice, even on a subconcious level. That all comes back to the whole red pill/blue pill thing: everyone gets the same choice neo gets! If they choose blue, they go back to the matrix as is, if they c
However, if everyone is a digital projection controlled by a computer program, then how is it the humans inside the matrix are capable of independent thought? Why isn't it like "Big Brother" in George Orwell's 1984, where the Thought Police were always watching for crimethink? Even if the computers' super-advanced AI engine could simulate thoughts *for* the human, and trick them into thinking they came up with it themselves, then why would the system allow a human to discover what is outside the Matrix? Is
If it was all a simulation, why would the people running the simulation care at all what people thought?
That depends on the purpose of the simulation. If the idea is to keep as many humans alive as possible (e.g. for a power plant or processing farm) then you don't want a group of subversives causing disturbances, because that is likely to lead to people being killed. So you either control/kill the subversives to protect the majority, or you provide a 'buffer zone' as has been suggested so that you sti
In the Matrix, people think for themselves. That's were independent thought comes from. It's also were religion comes from. What the computer didn't program, people could have created *inside* the Matrix. Simple.
It's too human, too sympathetic to be built by cold, heartless machines.
So it was build by computers beyond what you're willing to comprehend. Just because you don't think a computer can ever have properties we associate with life doesn't mean it can't. I mean, the computer can emulate a univers
However, if everyone is a digital projection controlled by a computer program, then how is it the humans inside the matrix are capable of independent thought? Why isn't it like "Big Brother" in George Orwell's 1984, where the Thought Police were always watching for crimethink? Even if the computers' super-advanced AI engine could simulate thoughts *for* the human, and trick them into thinking they came up with it themselves, then why would the system allow a human to discover what is outside the Matrix? Is
I'm somewhat surprised nobody has mentioned The Prisoner, the interesting (if sometimes very trippy) 60s series in which Patrick McGoohan, a former spy, is imprisoned in an isolated community designed to keep control of him. [spoiler alert] In the last episode of The Prisoner, McGoohan "escapes" finally and returns to London. And just as the closing credits roll, he is described (by a sign? - sorry, I saw some of these episodes when they did a rerun of the series about 10 years ago) as The Prisoner, imply
> I'm somewhat surprised nobody has mentioned The Prisoner
Mostly because it's already been talked about before. For those that are wondering where the references are in addition to yours:
The Matrix - Prisoner Episode playing on TV as Neo runs thru an apartment showing Matrix Reloaded - The Architect tells Neo he is the 6th anomlie. Hmm, The Prisoner was #6.
>But.... if the Matrix *was* built by a race of cruel machines designed to control humans, then why was the Matrix programmed the way it is? Are they torturing humans with a life they once knew, before AI came into play and destroyed that which they had?
In the Matrix movie, what makes you think that the machines are cruel? They are simply trying to survive. We would use the machines to survive if the roles were reversed *cough*animatrix*cough*
um, are you that stupid? how do you know what it takes to simulate a brain, and create consciousness anyway? we don't even know how the brain works so you cant say that we can't emulate it yet.
also, why always say that the movie "the matrix" is wrong? who says it's supposed to be right? it's just a damn movie, but using the outline you can create other "stories" that are more real.
Maybe that's why Neo is an exception... a human evolutionary algorithm that somehow does the unexpected, and can control things he shouldn't be able to.
Maybe the Matrix was made by humans who ARE fighting the machines, trying to find someone who can stop them. Evolving a warrior, in a sense...
Actually, the answer to the question is simple in terms of the new movie. The Architect (the creator of the Matrix) informs Neo that all human beings connected to the Matrix are given a choice whether or not to accept the program on a very subconcious level. This part of the system was designed by the Oracle (who also turns out to be a program). He goes on to state that 99.9% of all subjects accept the program when given a choice. That other 0.01% are those who have been freed.
Watch the Matrix reloaded. There is a big brother watching, and you will see how those that "escape" from the matrix are completely within the bounds of the matrix's creators' expectations. And I'm sure revolutions will throw us some other twist, perhaps that the "real world" is another matrix, and so on and so on.
What the hell? What do you mean by independent thought? I mean, even if the world works as we think it does, we can't think independently of atoms, or brains... but that doesn't worry anyone. So if we're simulated, we can't think independently of a computer. What's the problem?
Independent thinking comes to having the capacity to draw conclusions based on evidence available to you. I don't see how existing in a simulation would do anything to undermine that.
Why isn't it like "Big Brother" in George Orwell's 1984, where the Thought Police were always watching for crimethink?
How do you know it isnt? If you recall, there are people who rewrite history. Of course, most of us remember history as static (unless we've had a few drinks), but you see what im getting at. The Thought Police *could* be watching us, removing the potential wrong do-ers and rewriting history so that person didnt exist....But if no one was allowed to think a "wrong" thought
Define wrong?
"Be there. Aloha."
-- Steve McGarret, _Hawaii Five-Oh_
Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:5, Insightful)
However, if everyone is a digital projection controlled by a computer program, then how is it the humans inside the matrix are capable of independent thought? Why isn't it like "Big Brother" in George Orwell's 1984, where the Thought Police were always watching for crimethink? Even if the computers' super-advanced AI engine could simulate thoughts *for* the human, and trick them into thinking they came up with it themselves, then why would the system allow a human to discover what is outside the Matrix? Is there a certain amount of "tolerance" built into the system? I guess that would explain the need for "agents."
Soo...this goes back to my initial inquiry -- where does the independent thought come from? Is it somehow hardwired to the person's brain through the matrix? If so, they need subconscious experiences (daydreams, nightmares, etc.) in order to have independent thought. So the Matrix must have had a certain level of tolerance built in.
But.... if the Matrix *was* built by a race of cruel machines designed to control humans, then why was the Matrix programmed the way it is? Are they torturing humans with a life they once knew, before AI came into play and destroyed that which they had?
All this makes me want to see "Revolutions." I hope they answer all these questions, like "Who Created The Matrix?" It's too human, too sympathetic to be built by cold, heartless machines. There is religion in the matrix, so someone had to program that in.
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:1)
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:0)
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:5, Interesting)
Wasn't that the premise of the original matrix (the one built prior to the trilogy)? It was a paradise, but the problem was that no one believed it and so massive amounts of people would wake from it. Hence the reason why the second matrix was built (going back to Agent Smith's description in the first movie).
I always thought the matrix was more a playground for individual minds to play in. If you set up an environment that is engineered to look like our world, place the minds in the system with some initial parameters (e.g. you are a programmer looking for work and like potato chips and coffee, etc) and then let those objects loose in the system, things should flow fairly smoothly. The matrix was more like a drug to keep the minds of their batteries happy basically, and the reason they chose this section of our history is that it was "the height of our civilization". But even Neo has a choice by the architect in the second movie.
I would say that control came by limiting choices. This comes from the societal structure that is put in place, something which most people are more than happy to live within. The few that refused to accept that were shown a different reality (i.e. unplugged from the matrix). However, the one wrench that Matrix:Reloaded tossed into the mix was Neo's ability to sense the machines on the other side. This would indicate that the true architects of the matrix built a buffer zone in which those minds that didn't believe the first matrix would wake up into the second thus saving them as a power source for a while longer and ensuring that every once and awhile you could flush those who would attempt to destroy your creation. By controlling the resistance you have complete control as Orwell showed us in 1984.
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:2, Insightful)
No, silly.. (Score:2)
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:1)
I think that Neo's connection to the matrix is shared by Bane as well. That is why they are both in commas, and that is why they both do seemingly impossible things (Bane setting off an
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:2)
The Matrix obviously takes much from kung fu and anime movies. In those kinds of movies, when you're well trained and "enlightened" you can do all kinds of crazy
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:2)
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:2)
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:1)
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:2)
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:0)
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:0)
think of it like a buffer overflow... that the pill causes.....
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:1)
It's too human, too sympathetic to be built by cold, heartless machines.
So it was build by computers beyond what you're willing to comprehend. Just because you don't think a computer can ever have properties we associate with life doesn't mean it can't. I mean, the computer can emulate a univers
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:1)
I think therefore I am - even if I am inside a simulation.
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:1)
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:2)
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:2)
Mostly because it's already been talked about before. For those that are wondering where the references are in addition to yours:
The Matrix
- Prisoner Episode playing on TV as Neo runs thru an apartment showing Matrix Reloaded
- The Architect tells Neo he is the 6th anomlie. Hmm, The Prisoner was #6.
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:2)
In the Matrix movie, what makes you think that the machines are cruel? They are simply trying to survive. We would use the machines to survive if the roles were reversed *cough*animatrix*cough*
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:1)
also, why always say that the movie "the matrix" is wrong? who says it's supposed to be right? it's just a damn movie, but using the outline you can create other "stories" that are more real.
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:0)
Maybe the Matrix was made by humans who ARE fighting the machines, trying to find someone who can stop them. Evolving a warrior, in a sense...
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:0)
Actually, the answer to the question is simple in terms of the new movie. The Architect (the creator of the Matrix) informs Neo that all human beings connected to the Matrix are given a choice whether or not to accept the program on a very subconcious level. This part of the system was designed by the Oracle (who also turns out to be a program). He goes on to state that 99.9% of all subjects accept the program when given a choice. That other 0.01% are those who have been freed.
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:1)
Where's the problem? (Score:2)
Independent thinking comes to having the capacity to draw conclusions based on evidence available to you. I don't see how existing in a simulation would do anything to undermine that.
In any case, you should be more clear about h
Re:Can the Matrix simulate independent thought? (Score:1)
How do you know it isnt? If you recall, there are people who rewrite history. Of course, most of us remember history as static (unless we've had a few drinks), but you see what im getting at. The Thought Police *could* be watching us, removing the potential wrong do-ers and rewriting history so that person didnt exist.
Define wrong?