This is the first i've heard about the other two stories-within-the-story here, but DALnet has been the constant bane of people wanting to get things done (and/or chat) for quite some time now. The DDoS attacks have been going on for a long time, but they really came to a peak a few months ago, where it became extremely difficult to stay connected to DALnet for more than a few hours at a time (at which point you would have to reconnect, usually to a different server, since the servers seemed to just take turns dying).
There have been at least two, possibly three or four, occasions where DALnet just shut down completely for a period of at least a few days (this latest one being in the range of like a week). After the first "big" DALnet shut-down, it seems a lot of channels moved to other networks; most of these channels have even gained numbers. Seems even if DALnet does return, a lot of the channels that left it will stay on their new-found networks. The few anime channels that came back to DALnet are very slowly gaining back their numbers, but they're nowhere near the levels they used to be. As of right now, the highest count is 51 users, which is really low for a DALnet anime channel. Highest warez channel count is 68, which is also really low for a DALnet warez channel. And even the MP3 channels, which probably were some of the biggest channels on DALnet, have lost major numbers. I seem to remember them being in the area of like 600+; current count is 166. So yeah, DALnet has really been taking it in the ass.
General consensus around the parts i hang out seems to be that losing DALnet wouldn't be such a bad thing. We'd all move our channels to other networks, and be done with it. Chat channels would really love EsperNet or IRCnet, and warez/MP3/ISO/PlayStation/etc. channels have a half-dozen networks to choose from, most notably EFnet (though i despise it). Anime channels would thrive on Aniverse. DALnet was great, but, unless things see a really dramatic improvement, i think there are many that would agree that it needs to be put out of its misery as soon as possible.
What has made this all really lame has been the fact that DALnet hasn't really said anything about this. Their eZine (the DALnetizen) has truly been the opposite of helpful throughout this whole ordeal. It seemed as though DAL was almost oblivious to what was happening. There would be a paragraph about Christmas, a paragraph about the benefits of PHP, a paragraph about poems, a paragraph about some new op or something, and then tucked away in a little corner would be a little sentence or two along the lines of "ps dalnet si getitng ddosed pls bare w/ us thx". After this most recent attack, however, they've started to get their act together a bit, and have posted a lot more information regarding the situation. Information can really be helpful to their users, if they want to keep them.
Also not helping the situation are rumours(?) to the effect that the DALnet administration has resorted to childish finger-pointing, and have pretty much detached themselves from each other. DALnet isn't really doing a very good job of assuring its user base that it'll be alright.:/ Hopefully, if DALnet is to survive, this will be remedied.
And, finally, the biggest blow to DALnet has been the de-linking of several of its (best) servers. Almost all of the "good" servers, the ones that everyone had as their first picks, have disappeared. Even the "fall-back" servers seem to be gone. Evidently DALnet is picking up a few new (or renamed, maybe, i can't be sure myself) servers, even in light of the attacks, however.
So DALnet's fate is really unknown. No one can be sure, but for now it's functioning, at least in the sense that it has the ability to carry users. Who knows, though, it could be down again tomorrow.
General consensus around the parts i hang out seems to be that losing DALnet wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Hm, some group of people is attacking the largest IRC network, presumably with the intention of bringing it down completely. Should they succeed, how good is that really for the other IRC networks?
Well, DALnet hasn't been the largest network for a while now, but...
I don't know, could be good, could be bad. Good in the sense that the other networks get massive numbers to add to their communities. Bad in the sense that (01) the DDoSers might move on to those other networks, and (02) a lot of lamers hang out on DALnet that other networks may not exactly welcome with open arms. So it's a trade-off, i guess. If the servers and the administrators try to keep DALnet up indefinitely, they're going to end up alienating their users, and they'll move to other networks anyway (because the attacks will continue). On the other hand, if the DDoSers have a specific goal in mind, they may just give up and move on to other networks, or they may even spread out and attack multiple networks. But who can say what the DDoSers have in mind?
Ok, one of the largest IRC networks (and as I understand it, the difference isn't that big, but I haven't seen any recent numbers).
My impression is that completely bringing down something as large as one of the biggest IRC networks would be a somewhat unprecedented success, for these "hackers" (the term does get thrown around rather loosely, doesn't it? I still think of myself as a perl hacker...); it is just highly unlikely that the other networks will be left alone after this. Whether if the same people shift their focus, or others try to copy or outdo them, or if that just becomes the thing to do if you are a 1337 h4>0r.
Wake up and smell the burning RJ45. First, DALnet has posted two issues of the zine completely dedicated to the DDOS issue. Second, the staff of DALnet are not in-fighting. We're working our asses off trying to get this back up for the users. Yes, that has ment some staff changes, most notably a new CEO - but not infighting.
Your lack of understanding of the dozens of people that make the entire DALnet experience possible is amazing. You seem to think that DALnet just materialized out of thin air, and if it doesnt serve your purpose properly that it should be 'put out of its misery'. Well, guess what, DALnet will never just die off - because for some of us, its played more of a role in our lives than somewhere to trade porn. I can easily say that I would not be where I am emotionally, career-wise, and romatically if it wasnt for the role DALnet placed for me. And I'll continue to fight tooth and nail to make sure that medium exists to change someone elses' life.
Ok, way way way late in the discussion; i can only hope that you will come back to read this. Yes, i supposed there was some information from DAL at at least one point in time, but the fact is, neither i nor the rest of DAL's users check the DALnetizen every day, and neither i nor the rest of DAL's users want to have to dig through links or go out of our way to find information on this. This stuff should be on the FRONT PAGE of www.dal.net (as it is now), or there should be a permanent, highly visible link on the DALnetizen's page(s). We're already "inconvenienced" (yes, i realise DALnet is a privilege, not a right, but nonetheless, it is an inconvenience to some of us) by the fact that this is happening. No, it's not your fault; no, you're not sitting on your asses doing nothing; but that's not an excuse for not presenting information to the user base, and laying all these rumours and conjectures to rest.
I understand fine how DALnet works. There are dozens of persons, like you said, that are working damned hard to keep DALnet going. I know first-hand the effects of a DDoS attack: my dad runs a small (as in, regional) ISP, and it's been under attack by spammers for nearly a year. His single mail server, which had served him well for nearly 6 years, were not adequate to withstand the MILLIONS of spam messages that were being received every day. Even after upgrading to three massive mail servers, he's still getting raped by these spammers. Anyway, i digress. Yes, stopping a DDoS attack can be incredibly difficult. I understand that. I never said you guys were doing a bad job stopping the attacks; i said you guys were doing a bad job informing the masses. That's all.
And, maybe you should read closer. I never insinuated that if DALnet doesn't serve my purpose properly it should be put out of its misery. Mostly all i do is chat on DALnet. I can't use DCC because of my firewall (which i don't control), so any downloading i do is done via FTP. So, in essence, the only purpose i want DALnet to serve is a means of chatting with the people that i like to talk to in the various channels there. I realise DALnet's history; i have no idea what you mean by "DALnet materialized out of thing air". It served a lot of people before i ever "stepped foot" in DALnet, i know.
And i don't want DALnet to die. On the contrary, i hope it lives, but only if it gets better. Getting disconnected constantly and having almost-a-week's worth of downtime is extremely annoying. I realise that the DAL people are doing everything they can to make things better -- it's not their fault. I'm not saying the DAL people are responsible for the problems on DALnet. But DALnet was made for chatting, and if i can't chat efficiently on DALnet, i'll move to somewhere else. The use of the term "put out of its misery" was meant as it normally does in, say, animals: if your animals are suffering, and keeping them alive means continuing their suffering, you put them to sleep. Sure, you can keep DALnet alive. But is that going to stop the DDoS attacks automatically? No, the problem starts there and ends there.
DALnet is great; i love it. It has great people, a great IRCd (services and such), and its administration generally seems extremely tight-knit and caring, as opposed to EFnet, which seems to be just one huge jumble of people and servers that have little contact with one another except when something goes wrong. But DALnet is suffering, it is having problems, it has had adverse effects on its users. That's what i meant. I wasn't attempting to insult DAL's administration, or its handling of the DDoS attacks. I was criticising (in only one part of my comment, mind you) DALnet's representation to its users (i.e. "telling us it'll be alright"). I hope you guys can stop the DDoS attacks, i really do. But the next time DALnet goes down for a week, people will move again. Not because they have no faith in you, not because they're ungrateful, not because they blame you for the attacks, but because they simply want the best tool for the job.
Maybe you can't buy happiness, but these days you can certainly charge it.
DALnet (Score:5, Informative)
There have been at least two, possibly three or four, occasions where DALnet just shut down completely for a period of at least a few days (this latest one being in the range of like a week). After the first "big" DALnet shut-down, it seems a lot of channels moved to other networks; most of these channels have even gained numbers. Seems even if DALnet does return, a lot of the channels that left it will stay on their new-found networks. The few anime channels that came back to DALnet are very slowly gaining back their numbers, but they're nowhere near the levels they used to be. As of right now, the highest count is 51 users, which is really low for a DALnet anime channel. Highest warez channel count is 68, which is also really low for a DALnet warez channel. And even the MP3 channels, which probably were some of the biggest channels on DALnet, have lost major numbers. I seem to remember them being in the area of like 600+; current count is 166. So yeah, DALnet has really been taking it in the ass.
General consensus around the parts i hang out seems to be that losing DALnet wouldn't be such a bad thing. We'd all move our channels to other networks, and be done with it. Chat channels would really love EsperNet or IRCnet, and warez/MP3/ISO/PlayStation/etc. channels have a half-dozen networks to choose from, most notably EFnet (though i despise it). Anime channels would thrive on Aniverse. DALnet was great, but, unless things see a really dramatic improvement, i think there are many that would agree that it needs to be put out of its misery as soon as possible.
What has made this all really lame has been the fact that DALnet hasn't really said anything about this. Their eZine (the DALnetizen) has truly been the opposite of helpful throughout this whole ordeal. It seemed as though DAL was almost oblivious to what was happening. There would be a paragraph about Christmas, a paragraph about the benefits of PHP, a paragraph about poems, a paragraph about some new op or something, and then tucked away in a little corner would be a little sentence or two along the lines of "ps dalnet si getitng ddosed pls bare w/ us thx". After this most recent attack, however, they've started to get their act together a bit, and have posted a lot more information regarding the situation. Information can really be helpful to their users, if they want to keep them.
Also not helping the situation are rumours(?) to the effect that the DALnet administration has resorted to childish finger-pointing, and have pretty much detached themselves from each other. DALnet isn't really doing a very good job of assuring its user base that it'll be alright. :/ Hopefully, if DALnet is to survive, this will be remedied.
And, finally, the biggest blow to DALnet has been the de-linking of several of its (best) servers. Almost all of the "good" servers, the ones that everyone had as their first picks, have disappeared. Even the "fall-back" servers seem to be gone. Evidently DALnet is picking up a few new (or renamed, maybe, i can't be sure myself) servers, even in light of the attacks, however.
So DALnet's fate is really unknown. No one can be sure, but for now it's functioning, at least in the sense that it has the ability to carry users. Who knows, though, it could be down again tomorrow.
Re:DALnet (Score:2)
Hm, some group of people is attacking the largest IRC network, presumably with the intention of bringing it down completely. Should they succeed, how good is that really for the other IRC networks?
Re:DALnet (Score:1)
I don't know, could be good, could be bad. Good in the sense that the other networks get massive numbers to add to their communities. Bad in the sense that (01) the DDoSers might move on to those other networks, and (02) a lot of lamers hang out on DALnet that other networks may not exactly welcome with open arms. So it's a trade-off, i guess. If the servers and the administrators try to keep DALnet up indefinitely, they're going to end up alienating their users, and they'll move to other networks anyway (because the attacks will continue). On the other hand, if the DDoSers have a specific goal in mind, they may just give up and move on to other networks, or they may even spread out and attack multiple networks. But who can say what the DDoSers have in mind?
Re:DALnet (Score:2)
My impression is that completely bringing down something as large as one of the biggest IRC networks would be a somewhat unprecedented success, for these "hackers" (the term does get thrown around rather loosely, doesn't it? I still think of myself as a perl hacker...); it is just highly unlikely that the other networks will be left alone after this. Whether if the same people shift their focus, or others try to copy or outdo them, or if that just becomes the thing to do if you are a 1337 h4>0r.
Re:DALnet (Score:2, Informative)
Your lack of understanding of the dozens of people that make the entire DALnet experience possible is amazing. You seem to think that DALnet just materialized out of thin air, and if it doesnt serve your purpose properly that it should be 'put out of its misery'. Well, guess what, DALnet will never just die off - because for some of us, its played more of a role in our lives than somewhere to trade porn. I can easily say that I would not be where I am emotionally, career-wise, and romatically if it wasnt for the role DALnet placed for me. And I'll continue to fight tooth and nail to make sure that medium exists to change someone elses' life.
Re:DALnet (Score:1)
I understand fine how DALnet works. There are dozens of persons, like you said, that are working damned hard to keep DALnet going. I know first-hand the effects of a DDoS attack: my dad runs a small (as in, regional) ISP, and it's been under attack by spammers for nearly a year. His single mail server, which had served him well for nearly 6 years, were not adequate to withstand the MILLIONS of spam messages that were being received every day. Even after upgrading to three massive mail servers, he's still getting raped by these spammers. Anyway, i digress. Yes, stopping a DDoS attack can be incredibly difficult. I understand that. I never said you guys were doing a bad job stopping the attacks; i said you guys were doing a bad job informing the masses. That's all.
And, maybe you should read closer. I never insinuated that if DALnet doesn't serve my purpose properly it should be put out of its misery. Mostly all i do is chat on DALnet. I can't use DCC because of my firewall (which i don't control), so any downloading i do is done via FTP. So, in essence, the only purpose i want DALnet to serve is a means of chatting with the people that i like to talk to in the various channels there. I realise DALnet's history; i have no idea what you mean by "DALnet materialized out of thing air". It served a lot of people before i ever "stepped foot" in DALnet, i know.
And i don't want DALnet to die. On the contrary, i hope it lives, but only if it gets better. Getting disconnected constantly and having almost-a-week's worth of downtime is extremely annoying. I realise that the DAL people are doing everything they can to make things better -- it's not their fault. I'm not saying the DAL people are responsible for the problems on DALnet. But DALnet was made for chatting, and if i can't chat efficiently on DALnet, i'll move to somewhere else. The use of the term "put out of its misery" was meant as it normally does in, say, animals: if your animals are suffering, and keeping them alive means continuing their suffering, you put them to sleep. Sure, you can keep DALnet alive. But is that going to stop the DDoS attacks automatically? No, the problem starts there and ends there.
DALnet is great; i love it. It has great people, a great IRCd (services and such), and its administration generally seems extremely tight-knit and caring, as opposed to EFnet, which seems to be just one huge jumble of people and servers that have little contact with one another except when something goes wrong. But DALnet is suffering, it is having problems, it has had adverse effects on its users. That's what i meant. I wasn't attempting to insult DAL's administration, or its handling of the DDoS attacks. I was criticising (in only one part of my comment, mind you) DALnet's representation to its users (i.e. "telling us it'll be alright"). I hope you guys can stop the DDoS attacks, i really do. But the next time DALnet goes down for a week, people will move again. Not because they have no faith in you, not because they're ungrateful, not because they blame you for the attacks, but because they simply want the best tool for the job.