In the wake of this tragedy, I think we need to examine the repercussions.
As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world. There are arguments to this that we should wait until we are sure who it is, that we should not retaliate at all because this will just perpetuate the hostilities.
This is bull-shit. When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes. The DEA fucked them up really good. Since that time, DEA agents have led charmed lives. In many cases DEA agents are in peril, but only live because the Druggies know better than to touch a DEA agent for the repercussions. In the same light, it is clear to me and should be to everyone else that a serious strike against ALL possible/suspected terrorist organizations will send a similar message.
I think we should consider the movie "The Siege" with Denzel Washington. In the movie, following three or four terrorist attacks the city of New York was brought to a standstill. They declared Marshall Law. This was the effect on one city. In real life, with todays terrorist attacks, most state universities were shut down, many, many businesses all over the nation are closed. Lots of people will begin to live in fear.
This is, of course, what the terrorists want. When we begin to live in fear, we have betrayed the principles of our very country. We must strike back at these and all terrorists. We must send a message to this sick and twisted community that the US will not stand for this.
Beyond whatever reprisals the President decides to launch. I think we will begin to see some other serious repercussions. Do you think air travel will be the same? I thought it was very strict as it was. We may have to submit to cavity searches before too long.
Here's an interesting issue and one that is well to debate on Slashdot. It is said on just about all the major news networks that there has been an intelligence breakdown. That the terrorists use sophisticated encryption measures and that our intelligence agencies are under-funded and don't have the ability to keep tabs on the terrorists. Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this? Is the encryption export ban such a bad thing when stacked against 50,000 people's lives?
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
I don't know if we should put up with a greater intelligence presence. I know that is what we will experience. That is pretty clear. But what is obvious to me is that we must rise above this, we must not live in fear, and we must make these sons-of-bitches PAY for what they've done to assure that they can never do it again.
and not as interested in low tech, face to face survelliance. Somewhat like a certain web page, the US intelligence community believes there is a high tech solution to every problem.
When your biggest enemy is Russia, almost as technically advanced as you, this may make sense.
When your biggest enemy is a terrorist living in the mountains of Asia, and plotting an attach face to face over Coleman lantern light, the best spy satellites in the world won't help you, you need someone on site.
Iran was overthrown becuase we had no agents in the Ayatollah's movement, and this may be a similar situation.
The american people will cry out for revenge, but you should calm down before striking whoever responsible. Revenging - you must remember - is hard. Traditionally, revenge leads to someone revenging the revenge, unless the revenge is targeted with high political and practical accuracy. Remember, a missil can't tell Bush from e.g. BinLaden. In addition the pressision is not high enough to avoid hitting civilians. If civilians is hit the governmet controlled media in the target country can:
1. condemn the action agains WTC and the Pentagon, thus condemning the attack on their country.
2. using their government controlled media to make the people - even those personally neutral to the US - condemn the US, thus making new terrorist killing more people.
I would like to urge the American people to look for other solutions, silent actions. For instance they can through heavy intelligence - which will be conducted - locate and arrest the people responsible. A trial and conviction would be a much more satisfying and peaceful solution.
Two bonuses will also be given by doing it this way:
1. you are sertain the people responsible are caught, not just presumingly dead.
2. the country housing the terrorist would be put in an - for them - unbeneficial position giving the western countries a good way to excess political pressure on them with a small, but larger than normal effect.
People of america: let the your government know what you belive is right!!
(This is a repost from a previous discussion, but it was to important.)
This was our main subject in Psych class today at college, and our professor was especially worried about it.
Our professor is an Egyptian and an active Muslim. She was especially worried because everyone here in America associates BinLaden with the Islamic faith. It's as far from the truth as possible. BinLaden calls himself a "Fundamentalist Muslim," but has been denounced by Muslims throughout the world. She made us understand (and everyone should understand this before they point fingers) is that Palestineans / Arabs / Egyptians / whatever race or religion of people in the Middle East does not support the terrorist view of "If you kill Americans, you get into the life beyond." She was praying that the people behind the attack wern't Muslims, because the traditional Muslim faiths don't condone killing others. Unfortunately for her and us, though, our only image of the Muslim faith is BinLaden carrying out his attacks in the name of religion. It puts such a heavy burden on her here in the United States, since no one understands the fundamentals of the Muslim faith.
We should not go out on a witch hunt, because we are not sure yet who did it. But even more, people need to understand that these are INDIVIDUALS. They are INDIVIDUAL ACTS. They DO NOT represent any race of people, any religion of people, or any country of people.
the people behind the attack wern't Muslims, because the traditional Muslim faiths don't condone killing others. Unfortunately for her and us, though, our only image of the Muslim faith is BinLaden carrying out his attacks in the name of religion.
So, what are the muslim authorities doing to get rid of that image-breaking Ben Laden???
Everybody is shocked at the moment, anger has not kicked in yet. When the smoke clears and the mangled bodies of civilians and fireman are pulled from the rubble the muslim world will be in a world of hurt.
These terrorists have upped the stakes and have forced the world's most powerful military power into a corner. Over 10,000 Americans are DEAD. When 10,000 people die, pleas for compassion go unheard.
America's revenge and reprisals will be swift, violent and devastating. May god have mercy on whoever is behind this, because we won't.
So, basically you think we should fight fire with fire. We should become terrorists ourselves in order to punish those who committed this act. In the end, we will end up locked in a battle to the death with the terrorists responsible for today's attacks, and probably others as well. We will have no moral justification for our acts other than the same justifications that the terrorists of the world normally give. This was not the first stone to be thrown. This is just a bigger stone than usual. Most Americans don't even know what the hell our country does overseas or how our actions affect the people of other countries. Most people don't seem to really care. Is it any surprise that we've made enemies such as this?
The idea of no retalitation and just allowing for peace is definetly the utopian solution.
I'm not going to call for no retaliation. I am, however going to call for no random retaliation. Retaliation against civilian targets only vaguely associated with (the) terrorists will simply create more people, more desparate and more angry. It plays into the hands of the terrorist by creating even more people who are angry and/or desperate enough to work on suicide or other terrorist attacks.
Consider, for a moment, the kind of desperation it would take for someone to be a suicide attacker. Even in extreme situations, it is the rare person who would do something like this. It requires the willful creation of a desperate situation within a large population over a period of time.
Someone touched on this in an earlier post. What Israel has been doing to the Palestinian people in response to the Intifada has created a breeding ground for terrorists -- especially suicidal terrorists.
Retaliation should be strong and as swift as possible -- but against terrorists only. We are now experiencing, firsthand, the result of anger being directed against innocent civilian targets. If we take on the tactics of our attackers all we will do is feed the cycle of violence and hatred -- leading only to more death and destruction.
Break the circle. Stop violence against (innocent) civilians.
Exercise: what would have happened if the Allies dispensed with the Nuremburg trials and just killed the "odious individuals"?
Warning: you are way out of your league. I have studied the transcripts from Nurmeburg and the trial details at great length. Nuremburg was not a criminal trial - it was a series of contrived declarations that were designed to lend legitimacy to what were essentially preordained executions. There was never any intention of granting the presumption of innocence to the Nuremburg defedents, and the case was not tried within a framework where this dispensation was granting as a precursor.
But thanks for tossing around more of the pseudo-intellectual bullshit that amounts to a piss-poor devil's advocate argument.
I don't care if they think they're going to Allah. They're gone from this world, hence not a problem anymore.
Also, don't use the word "Islamic" to describe these people, even if you tack "Fundamentalist" to it. It's a slander to one of the greatest, most tolerant, and most peaceful religions on the planet.
Pigs like the ones who committed this atrocity do nothing but pervert and slander Islam.
Sorry bud, but all a paroxym of destruction will bring is more of the same. If decisive but massive killing actually stopped the other side, Israel would be as peaceful as Omaha by now.
When someone else has sworn to kill you, sitting around and trying to be nice is stupid. Kill them first. Or are you not paying attention to what those vermin are preaching in their newspapers, television programs, and mosques? Imagine a TV show for children which told kids how sweet the blood of the infidels smells. Or, if you'd like, move to the West Bank and watch it yourself.
Of course repercussions are necessary. The question is what do we do? Do you think sending missiles to suspected rouge nations is a good idea? You claim that you need to protect democracy and the American way of life. Well, in your example you site the DEA. They were not democratic. Would you stand by your convictions if you were the one being imprisioned or worse yet killed based on suspecions? This reminds me of China or the Spanish Inquisition or any number of other undemocratic acts.
So, what should be done? There are black boxes on those planes, if they survived. There must be intelligence reports from the CIA and other national security agencies. Two weeks or more to piece together what exactly happened, who was responsible and how they were able to do this without triggers being tripped everywhere. Then suitable punishment - if it's an act of war, then it must be. This is how America got involved with WW2 is it not.
But to suggest that we just blindly give up our democratic freedom is to give these terrorists precisely what they want. I for one am not willing to do that. I'm all for deadly repercussions, but they need to be well thought out and well executed.
When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes. The DEA fucked them up really good.
...I think we should consider the movie "The Siege" with Denzel Washington. In the movie, following three or four terrorist attacks the city of New York was brought to a standstill. They declared Marshall Law. This was the
effect on one city.
You must not have seen the rest of the movie [spoiler alert] - the whole point of it was that if you kick in doors everywhere, if you give up on the rule of law just because some degenerates refuse to live within it, if you allow some nut cases to goad you into creating the very environment of reprisal that they thrive on, you've given your enemy exactly what they want. The moral of The Siege was that even in times of crisis, tarring the innocent with the same brush as the guilty is the wrong thing to do, no matter how inspired towards ass-kicking we may be right now. Of course you leave potential terrorists living in fear, but at the expense of leaving everyone living in fear as well. In the long run, a civil society cannot continue along that path.
I think the jury's still out on the intelligence angle, although the three-letter-agencies will have you believe otherwise. For all we know, what was lacking to prevent this tragedy was not Carnivore interdiction, but just a little more attention on the part of an airline gate agent in Boston or Newark. I would think that any terrorists capable of planning this action would be smart enough to not use any public or semi-public communications medium which might have a chance of being tapped. Don't believe anything you hear on this topic for the next couple of weeks, until we can really begin to get to the bottom of it.
Yes, we need to change some things and prevent the reoccurrence of this kind of attack. But equally importantly we need to not allow terrorism to transform society into a warped vision of the very groups that hate us, just because of our fear and uncertainty. Democracy can triumph over terror, if only its own citizens give it the chance.
I am gonna post something that is gonna be very unpopulair i am sure, but still i am puzzled.
You state in your email your shock at the loss of life, and the loss of freedom.
Yet your way to solve this is to take more human lives (launch missles at every one suspected), and take away the freedom of everyone suspected.
In no way can i rime these two arguments. Yes this is the worst thing i have seen on CNN..ever? (i am not up close, i admit). However wasnt it the american founding fathers who said that freedom goes above all differences? This also means respecting the freedom of others.
I accept that you feel the guilty need to be delt with, however shooting the world @ random won't make the situation any better. You would betray the very thing you fight for. Justice and Freedom.
Also, don't forget before you claim the world will not be the same, that palastinians, people in ireland, south afrika, etc have suffered the same faith. Next time they are in the news, think back of this moment. This might be a unique opertunity to cherish freedom, not only for americans, but for humans.
When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes.
That works against a group with a profit motive. That's not what's at work here. You do that with terrorists and you only feed their delusions. You nail the responsible parties with as little collateral damage as possible and you stand a decent chance of winning the war for the mindset of people (not necessarily governments or special interest groups). If that doesn't happen you spawn a new generation that looks upon the loss of 50k lives as "justifiable".
We want swift retribution because it'll make us feel better..... momentarily.
Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this?
Carnivore can't sniff out an organization whose plans are made on the backside of the desert. I doubt they use the internet for anything more than propaganda. They don't plot attacks over cell phones. They're smart.
The news agencies keep talking about how this had to be a sophisticated, well funded attack. No. It was well planned, but very low tech. No foreign investments in military equipment were needed. The coordination was set by the Airline schedules (probably why they didn't fly America West), not the atomic clock synchronized on their IBM built Linux watches.... Well funded? How much do airline tickets go for these days? Did they have to build bombs? No, Take off on a transcontinental passenger flight that departs near your target and you have more fuel than Timothy McVeigh would know what to do with. Very low tech. Very inexpensive (in terms of return on investment). Very well thought out.
When we begin to live in fear, we have betrayed the principles of our very country.
On this we agree.
But what is obvious to me is that we must rise above this, we must not live in fear....
I agree. That means that we don't sink to their level to the point that innocent lives in the scores of thousands are willingly sacrificed to make our point. That's not "rising above" this. We can't be willing to stoop to their level in terms of losing our humanity. If we do, we are worse than they are because we aren't as smart. This was planned with patience. Targets were chosen because of the massive losses in terms of human life, but also because they knew the symbolic and actual damages that would be done to our country.
The trade center was a seat of commerce, literally and figuratively. They struck us in the pocketbook, literally and figuratively because we put so much stock in our economic prowess.
The airlines (most people just see this as a tool, but I think it was a target as well) offered us a sense of connectedness that email and telephones can't give. We felt safe about our domestic flights and security was minimal when compared to international flights. This too was a strike at commerce since much of air travel is business related. Now all the overnight package delivery services are grounded as well. They struck us there because we felt safe.
The pentagon is the seat of our military power. They struck us there because we take great pride in our military strength (not necessarily the same as our role as international policemen).
We pride ourselves on being the strongest economically and militarily and believe that we are somehow safely insulated from this very sort of thing, and that is precisely where we were hit. Literally and figuratively.
You may not have experienced war since WW II, but certainly a number of other countries have experienced war, either directly with U.S. troops or with U.S.-trained and -funded troops.
A partial list:
Korea
Vietnam
Cambodia
Hell, most of Southeast Asia
Nicaragua
El Salvador
Chile
Hell, most of Latin America
Iraq
Palestine
Iran
Lebanon
Hell, most of the Middle East
Well, at least most of Africa and Europe have remained free of the grip of American soldiery.
This is why the terrorists engage in these kinds of activities. They do not feel they have anything to lose. Sadly, they may be right: the United States' grasp of realpolitik is incredibly weak.
Exactly my point. Every one of those wars was fundamentally limited in such a way that they could not be pursued in full. I also think that most of them were unjustified actions which we should not have been involved in, and that military action was not the solution. But likewise, there is NEVER justification for terrorism against civilians, no matter what the cause. It is an endless form of war which can only bring degradation to both perpetrator and victim, and must be stopped. With the death toll apparently running into the tens of thousands, this is not some potshot carbomb - many times more people have died today than in Pearl Harbor, and ALL of them were civilians. It will not go unpunished. The terrorists may have thought they were at war with the US already, but it's high time we should show them what it is like when WE think we're at war with somone.
We DID pursue the war in full in Japan, the country that institutionalized suicide attacks, and we won - completely, and at great cost. We invaded, and we occupied, and we rebuilt things from the ground up. We didn't try to punish them for all the horrendous things they had done up until that point, but instead helped them create a peaceful and prosperous nation instead. The Japanese and these terrorists may not have thought they had anything left to lose, but they're wrong. They can lose their reason and will to fight.
After a discussion with some co-workers, we agreed that the towers should be re-built, and in the some location as the former towers. Not only as a memorial to those who died, but also as a sign of this country's strength.
Any other thoughts on this matter? Should the towers be rebuilt?
Personally, I'd like to see three towers built in their place, with the middle one much taller than the other two. That way, it would look like a giant middle finger, directed straight at the fuckers who did this.
We could level the site and put up a memorial and a new park, but I feel that the best memorial will be a bigger Trade Center Complex, with two bigger towers, which will become a new symbol of American resiliance.
I grew up in New York City, and I know a bit about the spirit of the city. Its people are all very resiliant, and will show the world that they can handle this tragedy. They will take time to mourn, of course, but after, they will have to go on with their lives. Their lives will be changed, for sure, but they will go on, because they can't live any other way.
Just some sobering thoughts for a sobering situation.
These days office space is in a glut. Who is going to fill those enormous towers (esp. given the state of our current economy, which isn't going to be improving any time soon in light of today's events)?
More to the point, who is going to *want* to work in those buildings after what happened today?
I agree that it's not necessarily a bad idea, especially as a way of bringing the country together, but these are one of a few realities that such a project would have to face.
As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?
"As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?"
read: a hijacked plane. not *any* plane, but one that's already been hijacked. Reinforce the cockpit door and walls, add a system where the pilots could monitor the cabin via hidden video cameras, and where they could notify ground sources of their situation if necessary, and in case of breach, hand control of the aircraft over to ground control. However, this hand-off could only be initiated by the aircraft itself. The facial/fingerprint recognition is a good idea as well.
This way a hijack would need to be two-pronged. It would have to attack the plane, but also take hte ground control. Exponentially harder to coordinate.
As another poster already mentioned, 90% of the systems are already in place. Autopilot is used all the time during takeoff and landing.
One other failsafe possibility. Install a safety mechanism to handover control of air traffic from one tower to another in case of attack. For those of you who never saw "pushing tin" or any documentaries on air traffic control, skilled terrorists could probably do 10x the damage they did today if they had targeted the towers at laguardia, newark, and JFK all at once, and directed the aircraft to fly into eachother.
Instead of reinforcing the cockpit door, remove it and provide a separate entrance for the cockpit crew with a relatively thick bulkhead between the cockpit and the passenger cabin. If we make it impossible, under any circumstances, for passengers to get into the cockpit, we would prevent this sort of tragedy from happening again.
World Leaders react [theglobeandmail.com] -- "The following are reactions from around the world to the disasters at New York's World Trade Centre and the Pentagon."
Related Links [theglobeandmail.com] -- US Gov't, US Military, NYC, Airlines, and Anti-Terrorism Resources.
Who Dunnit [bbc.co.uk] -- the BBC "Within minutes of the horrific chain of events unfolding at the World Trade Center, information began emerging suggesting it was not a terrible accident but a terrorist attack."
World Shock [bbc.co.uk] -- BBC "The attacks on New York and Washington have brought swift reactions of horror and condemnation from around the world."
Notable quotable: "But Iraqi television played a patriotic song that begins "Down with America!" as it showed the World Trade Center's towers falling, The Associated Press news agency reported."
America has made a permanent enemy of Iraq. I can't imagine how that will ever be changed.:-(
Also worth noting that many mid-East leaders of all stripes and colours are denouncing this terrorist act.
Don't paint all the mid-East with one brush. This terrorist attack was the action of a very, very small radical group that is roundly despised by many mid-East civilians.
The more I watch this on television, the less real it becomes. Repetition = numb.
I have heard first and second-hand accounts that the whole World Trade Center complex began evacuating after the 1st plane hit. A friend was on th 61st floor of tower 1, was asked to evacuate, was in the stairwell when the 2nd plane hit. He made it out ok. I just heard secondhand reports of people as high up as th 88th floor of tower 1 getting out ok. My friend's father (staying here tonight) was across the street in front of Deutsche Bank when the 2nd plane hit. He hid behind the big pillars holding up the balcony to avoid the debris and then got as far away from the towers as possible.
Unfortunately, it looks like there were hundreds of people on the ground by the towers watching the fires burn, both when the 2nd plane hit... and when the 1st tower fell.
I've been listing my friends who make it out safe on my website, as well as adding an information I get from 1st and 2nd hand accounts of people who were there. All said it was gruesome, even after just the 1st plane hit. Pictures and a live webcam are on my site. SOMEONE PLEASE MIRROR the terrorism and webcam subsite so I don't get Slashdotted.
http://johnhaller.com/jh/terrorist/
I will also be creating a site tonight to try and help people get in touch and find people affected by this. I will post more when I have it up.
Best wishes for all everyone knows and loves to make it home safe.
The skyline in May when I brought my gf to see Ellis Island. This is a sad sad day. To think that our children will not see the skyline [lazylightning.org] as we once did:(
I am not a believer in war and I am not a believer in the loss of lives at any cost. I am trying to understand the necessity of this but I can't.
she lives at wagner edu, a short distance from the WTC buildings:
I can't even begin to explain how I feel. Dana woke me up this
morning telling me to look out my window. I couldn't believe what I
saw. After standing amazed for a while, I saw the world trade center
collapse. Amazing. It's like a disaster movie, I still can't
believe it's happening.
The entire floor is bonding and finding support from each other.
Classes have been cancelled today, and probably tomorrow. There are
buses going to local hospitals with blood donors. Many people have
family that worked at the World Trade Center, and it's hard to get
info.
It's so strange to look out at the skyline... the smoke is starting
to clear a bit, but how is it NY without those buildings?
Thank you all for your support, I will keep trying to call, but the
lines are really busy. "
My name is Ryan Peterson and I live in Victoria, BC, Canada. I just wanted to let every American know that this has hit Canada hard. My entire office is in shocked and you have our good thoughts and prayers. As your neighbor, I know we will do anything you ask of us. Right now, all I can do is pray for you all.
I know I can honestly say - that my entire nation is grieving for your loss.
i have composed a buisness directory from a cached copy of http://www.onisland.com/wtc/bizdir/
and put it on my host
here's the 583K HTML file (not recommended)
http://janitor61.home.mindspring.com/list/bdir.htm
here's a 24K ZIP file (recommended)
http://janitor61.home.mindspring.com/list/bdir.zip
mindspring will have my head for this
my apologies if this has been posted in another form
What technology? Guy walks into a plane, shoots pilots, and turns the yoke. These events could have happened at any time since the towers were first constructed 30 years ago. What is this rant about technology for?
I'll go to the point of responding somewhat to the article in saying that it sounds much like somebody read Debt of Honor and put a spin on it when they did this.
As for the rest, I'd think that now would be a good time to not post articles from JonKatz. Quite frankly his comments are usually rimshot, especially now. And it's not his right to comment that I'm complainin about - everyone has that right here. It's his right to be front page material. Slashdot has its ups, the prior 3 articles fitting there, and it has its downs - and this one is way down there. JonKatz (whether you be a person or an alternate account for some other name on the site), please read your articles before you think to put them on the site, and make sure that they both make sense, and have a point rather than are just there - and in some cases just there and insensitive.
And yet it's still the people that matter, not the technology. We all know that, and despite this being a site for nerds, this is stuff that Matters. I don't know anyone in New York, and I'm all the way out here in California, but every five minutes I feel like I'm going to break out in tears just from what I've heard and read. I am scared, saddened, and humbled by this today.
This isn't Armageddon. That sounds too much like the stupid movie and it cheapens the fact that someone somewhere is responsible for this. This is the real thing, and it's not about the planes or the black boxes or the television. It's about the people, because that's what Matters.
Google [google.com]'s front page now contains links to a few major news sites, along with links to their own mirrors of those sites. If you're trying to access a given news organization's reports on recent events, I suggest checking Google for a mirrored link.
As you've probably read in the other articles (and which will eventually bleed into this article) is how people are shunning others comparing this to Pearl Harbor and war.
I am going to agree with Jon, here (gasp!). This is how War is played in the twenty-first century. No one has the power to have a conventional war with the US, so it must result in terrorism and guerilla warfare. Its not pretty, but this is how war has evolved.
Your first reaction is to use our strength to fight back, but as the days start to come between present and this tragedy, you'll find out how terrorist cells work.
Their is very little communication between the cells, and the cells are very sparcely located. Result? Very difficult to find everyone in the organization, and very difficult to march an army in to win the war.
We are at the beginning of a difficult war. Please don't get me wrong, I'd like to see each of these cowardly terrorist recieve slow and painful deaths, but we must be smart, rational, and alert to win.
We should strike back. That is not in question. But we should strike back against the proper targets. We should not just attack everything we consider a terrorist because we are going to hit the wrong targets. Then when that happens we simply make another enemy. But we shouldn't be talking attack at the moment. Let that wait till tomorrow. Today we should mourn and gather our dead.
When Pearl Harbor was bombed, we knew who to retailiate against. There was a target we could single out and mobilize against. Here we don't know who attacked us, or how we would retaliate. It's like swatting a fly in an open field; there may not be a lot of flies, but because they are so hard to pinpoint, or even hit (since they can move freely), swatting even some of the flies is probabalistic at best.
I hope Bush has a good plan, because I have no idea what I would do in his shoes (except for maybe go back to Washington and make a comforting speech).
Step off the drama, Katz. You haven't said anything particularly important or notable here; it's just the same "Pearl Harbor" hype that the established news outlets are pushing. That might work for the TV masses, but it's not appropriate here.
If you can't post substance, then please don't post. I just get the impression that you only posted because you've got this delusion of yourself as an insightful person who has insightful things to say, and you thought there would be a hole here if your name could not be found.
This article was not insightful. It was a rehash of every other "insightful" thing that has already been on the news today.
-Grant/"JimTheta"
(I know I'm gonna get troll-modded for this, but I need to say it. At least I used my real name, instead of AC'ing it, like so many others.)
I fear somthing worse than random beatings of asian-americans by intolerant morons screaming "give us back our pilot" as we experienced when a US spyplane crashed in china. Everyone must make a pledge to not only be rational today, not only be rational for months, but to defend rationalism, wherever you see it diminished. There will be a wave of racism and search for scapegoats like we've never seen. Make sure this enourmous tragedy doesn't get any worse. Do not prejudge any race or person as "terroist", and be sure not to tolerate anyone who does, before they actually have been convicted. Remember, the american way is under attack. Protect it. Don't give in to witch-hunts. The only call for blood we should worry about right now is the one from the red cross!
It this your new Perl Harbour, or is it Nagasaki and Hiroshima coming back to haunt you ?
While the events today are of course a perverse display of violence aimed at civilians, no one should be ignorant of the fact that the U.S. themselves are not exactly virgin in the field of hitting very large amounts of civilians with no prior warning what so ever.
Another thing: There is a lot of sentiment that this is Islamic terrorists, or the like. Remember Timothy Mc. Vein ? The press was blowing that one up as a mid-east terrorist attack, until *investigation* reveiled it was in fact a genuine misguided U.S. citizen.
Think people. Don't get carried away in anger with a blind wish for vengence.
#1467 - 1472 were taken before the second tower collapsed.
#1473 - 1474 is the National Guard deployed on Lexington Ave.
#1775 - 1746 are people trying to get out of Manhattan waiting at a bus
stop.
#1477 - 1490 is lower Manhattan at 3pm.
#1491 - 1496 is two blocks from the world trade center at 3pm.
#1497 is a fire boat on the Hudson river.
#1499 - 1503 is the world trade center an surrounding buildings
#1505 is a fire truck damaged by the collapse 2 blocks away from the WTC.
#1507 - 1510 is the WTC.
#1511 - 1512 is a neighboring building.
#1513 - 1515 is the surrounding area to the WTC.
Everyone is free to forward these pictures, and use them without permission. Mirrors are welcome.
--Terry
In the early aftermath of the heinous attacks on the World Trade
Center and the Pentagon, there is much speculation that this attack
had to be the work of a significant, organized organization. Although
we desire to believe that this attack required a large group, one that
we could potentially retaliate against, an attack of this magnitude
requires only a few individuals and a very small amount of
preparation.
It only takes a couple of armed individuals to commandeer a plane in
the air once they get a weapon aboard, while a few minutes thought
outside an airport checkpoint will reveal a half dozen methods a
terrorist could use. Once the terrorists gain control over the plane,
it is again straightforward for the terrorists to conduct a controlled
crash: readily available flight simulation programs are very
powerful, capable of providing the necessary training for a targeted
crash.
Thus, a dozen reasonably intelligent zealots, willing to die for their
cause, could easily prepare, train, plan, and execute an attack on
this scale in under a week. What will we do if it turns out that it
was a small group? What will we do if there is nobody left to blame?
First off, my heartfelt condolences to those who have lost family, friends, and loved ones in this tragedy.
I met with a number of friends at lunch. Some had loved ones who they had been unable to reach to see if they were okay.
I felt powerless over what had happened, and indeed there is nothing anyone can do to change what has already happened. But, I did what I could, today. I offered a shoulder to cry on. I encouraged them to have hope, to know that not knowing does not mean the worst. That there is already a tremendous pulling together of support. Calls for blood donations, people reaching out to friends they hadn't talked with for a long while, and countless other acts across the country and the world where people offer support to one another.
This tragedy can become a rallying point, an opportunity to show the world what we are made of here in the US of A. The Oklahoma bombing, the flooding of the Mississippi River, hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes. We are a people that has a long history of reaching out to help.
A proverb I've liked: "If I cannot do great things, then I will do small things in great ways." (Don't know who wrote it, sorry.) Each person who lends a hand, a shoulder, a caring heart does something tangible. And all of those seemingly small acts, when taken together, can show the world, and ourselves, that we are greater, MUCH greater, than these attacks.
It is universally accepted that today's events are tragic. Thousands of innocent people were killed and the suffering will encircle their family, friends, and others. Our nation is living in fear.
If this turns out to be the work of a Palestinian terrorist organization (and not a decorated U.S. military veteran), most Americans will rally for retaliation with the full support of our allies. This is also tragic, for we smite Jesus of Nazareth, Ghandi, and all other prophets who have tried to save us from our hatred and anger. At the same time, we commit an act that--in their hearts--must be avenged. The cycle of violence will continue, destroying more innocent lives.
If we can all learn a lesson today, I hope it is this: that all "leaders" assume responsibility for their actions and stop this millenia-long practice of littering the ground with the bodies of their followers. The time has come to upgrade our foreign policy. When political leaders disagree, let them face off in pistol duels.
Suicide is a violation of Islamic law as defined by the Koran. These terrorists are not representative of Islam. As Tom Clancy put it on CNN just now -- they *are* fools.
Do you realize what kind of hell on Earth you are advocating when you ignorantly lump people into illogical categories? Such limited "thinking" is the root of sectarian violence around the world, people being murdered simply because they are atached to an artificial label: Protestant or Catholic, Jew or Arab, Black or White.
Those of you who declare "jihad" on all of Islam -- you are no better than the animals who murdered the innocent this morning. Go crawl back in your hole, while the rest of us look for light at the end of the tunnel...
>psychologists are showing up at school bus stops to deal
>with kids whose parents aren't coming home.
My god.
I didn't realize the tragedy of this all until I read this. I was feeling
quite sorry for all the dead, but the real tragedy is for the still living.
Just imagine you're a 5-10 old kid. Imagine what would mean to you. It
hurts just to try.
Who's the one to tell these kids why their parents are late today?
I think I just couldn't.
--
Xouba,
who just yesterday thought that life was not so bad.
At least the aftermath of Pearl Harbor was easy to grasp and propose solutions for: Japanese national forces attacked American national assets, so the US government sent forces to pound Japan into submission. But we do not have a common enemy to unify against and revile. We do not have an island or a country at which to direct our anger and our weapons.
We weren't attacked by a known enemy. It is more like being mugged and beaten in broad daylight, and not even getting a look at the bastard. And to top it, everyone around you acts as though they didn't see a thing. And this is on a previoiusly unimaginable scale.
So what do we do? Years of painstaking detective work resulting in a trial in the Hague? Anticlimactic and unsatisfying. Nuke the entire Middle East into one big godforsaken glass parking lot? Very satisfying. And it would probably solve the question of Jerusalem by making it uninhabitable for tens of thousands of years. But its a stupid, knee-jerk idea. Don't forget all the cries of "Islamic fundamentalist terrorism" immediately after OKC. Invasion and occupation? Volleys of cruise missles? Impractical and expensive, not to mention where and against who?
Right now it would be a relief to go down to the recruiting office and say "I wanna go kill me some fuckin' (insert demographic), sir" But all I could do was drop off a pint at the bloodbank and stare at Peter Jennings and the Talking Head Band all day.
btw, i do not mean to criticize Jon Katz, just the comparison to Pearl Harbor. He's not the first or only one to mention it - he just gave me an opening to bring it up. I sincerely hope he (and all concerned) finds his people alive and well.
I'm getting a bit sick of this sort of sentiment. What appears to be a small cell of people wreak tremendous havoc on the United States, and we have people ready to destroy a nation? No wonder so many people hate Americans. I'm beginning to hate Americans,,and I am one.
Besides, we'd be horrified if we turned Afghanistan into a parking lot and then found out that it was the Elbonians all along.
I'm afraid many of you anonymous cowards (log in please) need to step outside of your privileged American lives and learn about the reality of life in impoverished countries.
Sure nothing can justify this type of terrorism, but your GI-Joe-inspired concepts of American military superiority winning any battle and surpressing any enemy are so childish I can't help but chuckle.
Time and time again throughout history oppressive empires have been toppled by the downtrodden masses. You spoiled brats think that the threat of unrelenting military armageddon would be enough to scare anyone into submission. You also think that our role as the major world power is unsurmountable because we have such enormous resources at are disposal.
You have to step outside of your capitalism-brainwashed, MTV-soaked minds and realize that the people who are propagating this kind of terrorism FEAR NOTHING because they do not value the world order. The only way to stomp out these terrorists would be mass genocide. If you are advocating mass genocide then you REALLY need to check your righteous self, because America is anything but a model of ethical international relations.
I repeat myself now, because this is the absolute truth. If America continues it's greedy self-serving ways, this is only the beginning of the tragedy that will strike us. It's time to embrace our success as a way to benefit the world.
"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apprt by Chaos, while the fotress undures, the great leader will succumb" "The third big war will begin when the big City is burning"
quote -Nostradamus- 1654 n. C.
Here's his post copied for your convience. Please mod him up.
This is not real
Just do a search on google for this phrase. If I make say a thousand prophecies that are fairly abstract for example:
In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb
Well let us analyse this. For Example what does City of God mean? It could be Mecca, Medina, Rome, Jeruselum, Salt Lake City, or any holy city depending on your religion. What do I mean by thunder--a storm? War? EarthQuake? lots of stuff can be described by thunder. There are a lot of two brothers on this world (I think the Number runs among the Billions) and fortress edure's what--Besiegement, Famine, etc? What Great Leader? How will he succumb? To what?
I'm writing this response from a desk within the NOC of the Networld+Interop show in Atlanta, GA.
On opening day of what is still a very popular (and large) trade show, attendance was shockingly, and understandably, low. The CNN building directly across the street stood empty, evacuated against the remote possibility that it might be a target.
Streaming media products were quickly retooled and retasked. Clusters of stunned attendees and staff gathered around state-of-the-art flat panels and projection screens as today's events progressed. The 2x4 edge-to-edge video wall within the NOC has been displaying streaming media and television all day, workstation monitors spun to face outward so passerby's can have other places to view.
By 1 pm, Interop team volunteers were paired with Event staff to canvass the show floors to advise exhibitors that we'd be closing the show floor early to allow people to depart where possible. In between, people are emailing, messaging, calling, checking on loved ones. As I write this, Interop team members are still clustered within the I-Labs area, watching live newsfeeds streamed over the grid.
The shock of the incident is incredible. This is the kind of tragedy you see in movies and pray never happens. During one of a couple meetings today, someone present for the Oklahoma City bombing brought up a powerful notion: The victims of these tragedies, and the people they leave behind, need to know there is support for them, that people care. I consider myself to be a fairly thick skinned individual, and this event has struck me to the core.
We, as a chorus, are the voice of the world. Take the time to show your support. Resist the kneejerk response to lash out in anger. Even more, demolish the impulse to turn this into a laughing matter.
Allow me a brief moment to express some outrage: Within hours of the initial incident, the remains of the WTC were placed for auction on eBay. I'm sure someone thought it was funny. I'm sure some people still think it's funny. I hope those of you who do mention it in mixed company, and have to face down the family member of a victim of today's incredible tragedy.
..not because of what you have to say, but because you are clearly speculating on something that we aren't certain about yet.
Everyone seemed pretty damn certain Oklahoma City was an outside terrorist toying with our country, we all know how that ended up.
Sheep are people that go with the flow, they are lead one direction or another. Trust me, I've dealt with a few.
So while you may or may not be correct in your assumptions, don't play victim to the moderators when you are making assumptions and speculating as to who may have done this.
The "root of it all" may turn out to be domestic terrorism. And if so, you'd really look bad.
The "root of it all" may turn out to be domestic terrorism. And if so, you'd really look bad.
Thank you. This is the first objective reply I've gotten (of course, I've posted rather irrationally for the past few hours, so I can understand some of the angry words). You make a very good point that I hadn't thought of.
Your reply is exactly why I read/post to slashdot in the first place. I'd be the first to admit I don't have everything figured out, so I deliberately post my flaming, raw, unrationalized opinions to/., and I rely on the collective brainpower to either mod me down, publish an opinion that agrees with mine, or a dissenting statement that rationally disarms my position. Yours was the latter.
It's all a social experiment: I'd rather be modded as a troll on/. than beat up in real life for shooting my mouth off.
What repercussions (Score:3, Interesting)
In the wake of this tragedy, I think we need to examine the repercussions.
As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world. There are arguments to this that we should wait until we are sure who it is, that we should not retaliate at all because this will just perpetuate the hostilities.
This is bull-shit. When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes. The DEA fucked them up really good. Since that time, DEA agents have led charmed lives. In many cases DEA agents are in peril, but only live because the Druggies know better than to touch a DEA agent for the repercussions. In the same light, it is clear to me and should be to everyone else that a serious strike against ALL possible/suspected terrorist organizations will send a similar message.
I think we should consider the movie "The Siege" with Denzel Washington. In the movie, following three or four terrorist attacks the city of New York was brought to a standstill. They declared Marshall Law. This was the effect on one city. In real life, with todays terrorist attacks, most state universities were shut down, many, many businesses all over the nation are closed. Lots of people will begin to live in fear.
This is, of course, what the terrorists want. When we begin to live in fear, we have betrayed the principles of our very country. We must strike back at these and all terrorists. We must send a message to this sick and twisted community that the US will not stand for this.
Beyond whatever reprisals the President decides to launch. I think we will begin to see some other serious repercussions. Do you think air travel will be the same? I thought it was very strict as it was. We may have to submit to cavity searches before too long.
Here's an interesting issue and one that is well to debate on Slashdot. It is said on just about all the major news networks that there has been an intelligence breakdown. That the terrorists use sophisticated encryption measures and that our intelligence agencies are under-funded and don't have the ability to keep tabs on the terrorists. Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this? Is the encryption export ban such a bad thing when stacked against 50,000 people's lives?
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
I don't know if we should put up with a greater intelligence presence. I know that is what we will experience. That is pretty clear. But what is obvious to me is that we must rise above this, we must not live in fear, and we must make these sons-of-bitches PAY for what they've done to assure that they can never do it again.
Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech (Score:5, Interesting)
When your biggest enemy is Russia, almost as technically advanced as you, this may make sense.
When your biggest enemy is a terrorist living in the mountains of Asia, and plotting an attach face to face over Coleman lantern light, the best spy satellites in the world won't help you, you need someone on site.
Iran was overthrown becuase we had no agents in the Ayatollah's movement, and this may be a similar situation.
Re:What repercussions (Score:5, Insightful)
1. condemn the action agains WTC and the Pentagon, thus condemning the attack on their country.
2. using their government controlled media to make the people - even those personally neutral to the US - condemn the US, thus making new terrorist killing more people.
I would like to urge the American people to look for other solutions, silent actions. For instance they can through heavy intelligence - which will be conducted - locate and arrest the people responsible. A trial and conviction would be a much more satisfying and peaceful solution.
Two bonuses will also be given by doing it this way:
1. you are sertain the people responsible are caught, not just presumingly dead.
2. the country housing the terrorist would be put in an - for them - unbeneficial position giving the western countries a good way to excess political pressure on them with a small, but larger than normal effect.
People of america: let the your government know what you belive is right!!
(This is a repost from a previous discussion, but it was to important.)
Careful about targeting one source... (Score:5, Insightful)
Our professor is an Egyptian and an active Muslim. She was especially worried because everyone here in America associates BinLaden with the Islamic faith. It's as far from the truth as possible. BinLaden calls himself a "Fundamentalist Muslim," but has been denounced by Muslims throughout the world. She made us understand (and everyone should understand this before they point fingers) is that Palestineans / Arabs / Egyptians / whatever race or religion of people in the Middle East does not support the terrorist view of "If you kill Americans, you get into the life beyond." She was praying that the people behind the attack wern't Muslims, because the traditional Muslim faiths don't condone killing others. Unfortunately for her and us, though, our only image of the Muslim faith is BinLaden carrying out his attacks in the name of religion. It puts such a heavy burden on her here in the United States, since no one understands the fundamentals of the Muslim faith.
We should not go out on a witch hunt, because we are not sure yet who did it. But even more, people need to understand that these are INDIVIDUALS. They are INDIVIDUAL ACTS. They DO NOT represent any race of people, any religion of people, or any country of people.
I just hope people can find a way to understand.
Re:Careful about targeting one source... (Score:3, Informative)
So, what are the muslim authorities doing to get rid of that image-breaking Ben Laden???
Re:Careful about targeting one source... (Score:3, Interesting)
Everybody is shocked at the moment, anger has not kicked in yet. When the smoke clears and the mangled bodies of civilians and fireman are pulled from the rubble the muslim world will be in a world of hurt.
These terrorists have upped the stakes and have forced the world's most powerful military power into a corner. Over 10,000 Americans are DEAD. When 10,000 people die, pleas for compassion go unheard.
America's revenge and reprisals will be swift, violent and devastating. May god have mercy on whoever is behind this, because we won't.
OK... (Score:4, Informative)
So, basically you think we should fight fire with fire. We should become terrorists ourselves in order to punish those who committed this act. In the end, we will end up locked in a battle to the death with the terrorists responsible for today's attacks, and probably others as well. We will have no moral justification for our acts other than the same justifications that the terrorists of the world normally give. This was not the first stone to be thrown. This is just a bigger stone than usual. Most Americans don't even know what the hell our country does overseas or how our actions affect the people of other countries. Most people don't seem to really care. Is it any surprise that we've made enemies such as this?
Re:Good idea, but this is not Utopia (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not going to call for no retaliation. I am, however going to call for no random retaliation. Retaliation against civilian targets only vaguely associated with (the) terrorists will simply create more people, more desparate and more angry. It plays into the hands of the terrorist by creating even more people who are angry and/or desperate enough to work on suicide or other terrorist attacks.
Consider, for a moment, the kind of desperation it would take for someone to be a suicide attacker. Even in extreme situations, it is the rare person who would do something like this. It requires the willful creation of a desperate situation within a large population over a period of time.
Someone touched on this in an earlier post. What Israel has been doing to the Palestinian people in response to the Intifada has created a breeding ground for terrorists -- especially suicidal terrorists.
Retaliation should be strong and as swift as possible -- but against terrorists only. We are now experiencing, firsthand, the result of anger being directed against innocent civilian targets. If we take on the tactics of our attackers all we will do is feed the cycle of violence and hatred -- leading only to more death and destruction.
Break the circle. Stop violence against (innocent) civilians.
Re:What rank tripe (Score:3, Insightful)
Warning: you are way out of your league. I have studied the transcripts from Nurmeburg and the trial details at great length. Nuremburg was not a criminal trial - it was a series of contrived declarations that were designed to lend legitimacy to what were essentially preordained executions. There was never any intention of granting the presumption of innocence to the Nuremburg defedents, and the case was not tried within a framework where this dispensation was granting as a precursor.
But thanks for tossing around more of the pseudo-intellectual bullshit that amounts to a piss-poor devil's advocate argument.
Re:What repercussions (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, don't use the word "Islamic" to describe these people, even if you tack "Fundamentalist" to it. It's a slander to one of the greatest, most tolerant, and most peaceful religions on the planet.
Pigs like the ones who committed this atrocity do nothing but pervert and slander Islam.
Re:What repercussions (Score:4, Redundant)
Re:What repercussions (Score:4, Informative)
When someone else has sworn to kill you, sitting around and trying to be nice is stupid. Kill them first. Or are you not paying attention to what those vermin are preaching in their newspapers, television programs, and mosques? Imagine a TV show for children which told kids how sweet the blood of the infidels smells. Or, if you'd like, move to the West Bank and watch it yourself.
They started the fight. It's time to end it.
-jon
Re:What repercussions (Score:5, Insightful)
So, what should be done? There are black boxes on those planes, if they survived. There must be intelligence reports from the CIA and other national security agencies. Two weeks or more to piece together what exactly happened, who was responsible and how they were able to do this without triggers being tripped everywhere. Then suitable punishment - if it's an act of war, then it must be. This is how America got involved with WW2 is it not.
But to suggest that we just blindly give up our democratic freedom is to give these terrorists precisely what they want. I for one am not willing to do that. I'm all for deadly repercussions, but they need to be well thought out and well executed.
Re:What repercussions (Score:5, Insightful)
You must not have seen the rest of the movie [spoiler alert] - the whole point of it was that if you kick in doors everywhere, if you give up on the rule of law just because some degenerates refuse to live within it, if you allow some nut cases to goad you into creating the very environment of reprisal that they thrive on, you've given your enemy exactly what they want. The moral of The Siege was that even in times of crisis, tarring the innocent with the same brush as the guilty is the wrong thing to do, no matter how inspired towards ass-kicking we may be right now. Of course you leave potential terrorists living in fear, but at the expense of leaving everyone living in fear as well. In the long run, a civil society cannot continue along that path.
I think the jury's still out on the intelligence angle, although the three-letter-agencies will have you believe otherwise. For all we know, what was lacking to prevent this tragedy was not Carnivore interdiction, but just a little more attention on the part of an airline gate agent in Boston or Newark. I would think that any terrorists capable of planning this action would be smart enough to not use any public or semi-public communications medium which might have a chance of being tapped. Don't believe anything you hear on this topic for the next couple of weeks, until we can really begin to get to the bottom of it.
Yes, we need to change some things and prevent the reoccurrence of this kind of attack. But equally importantly we need to not allow terrorism to transform society into a warped vision of the very groups that hate us, just because of our fear and uncertainty. Democracy can triumph over terror, if only its own citizens give it the chance.
Re:What repercussions (Score:5, Insightful)
You state in your email your shock at the loss of life, and the loss of freedom.
Yet your way to solve this is to take more human lives (launch missles at every one suspected), and take away the freedom of everyone suspected.
In no way can i rime these two arguments. Yes this is the worst thing i have seen on CNN
I accept that you feel the guilty need to be delt with, however shooting the world @ random won't make the situation any better. You would betray the very thing you fight for. Justice and Freedom.
Also, don't forget before you claim the world will not be the same, that palastinians, people in ireland, south afrika, etc have suffered the same faith. Next time they are in the news, think back of this moment. This might be a unique opertunity to cherish freedom, not only for americans, but for humans.
Re:What repercussions (Score:3, Insightful)
That works against a group with a profit motive. That's not what's at work here. You do that with terrorists and you only feed their delusions. You nail the responsible parties with as little collateral damage as possible and you stand a decent chance of winning the war for the mindset of people (not necessarily governments or special interest groups). If that doesn't happen you spawn a new generation that looks upon the loss of 50k lives as "justifiable".
We want swift retribution because it'll make us feel better..... momentarily.
Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this?
Carnivore can't sniff out an organization whose plans are made on the backside of the desert. I doubt they use the internet for anything more than propaganda. They don't plot attacks over cell phones. They're smart.
The news agencies keep talking about how this had to be a sophisticated, well funded attack. No. It was well planned, but very low tech. No foreign investments in military equipment were needed. The coordination was set by the Airline schedules (probably why they didn't fly America West), not the atomic clock synchronized on their IBM built Linux watches.... Well funded? How much do airline tickets go for these days? Did they have to build bombs? No, Take off on a transcontinental passenger flight that departs near your target and you have more fuel than Timothy McVeigh would know what to do with. Very low tech. Very inexpensive (in terms of return on investment). Very well thought out.
When we begin to live in fear, we have betrayed the principles of our very country.
On this we agree.
But what is obvious to me is that we must rise above this, we must not live in fear....
I agree. That means that we don't sink to their level to the point that innocent lives in the scores of thousands are willingly sacrificed to make our point. That's not "rising above" this. We can't be willing to stoop to their level in terms of losing our humanity. If we do, we are worse than they are because we aren't as smart. This was planned with patience. Targets were chosen because of the massive losses in terms of human life, but also because they knew the symbolic and actual damages that would be done to our country.
The trade center was a seat of commerce, literally and figuratively. They struck us in the pocketbook, literally and figuratively because we put so much stock in our economic prowess.
The airlines (most people just see this as a tool, but I think it was a target as well) offered us a sense of connectedness that email and telephones can't give. We felt safe about our domestic flights and security was minimal when compared to international flights. This too was a strike at commerce since much of air travel is business related. Now all the overnight package delivery services are grounded as well. They struck us there because we felt safe.
The pentagon is the seat of our military power. They struck us there because we take great pride in our military strength (not necessarily the same as our role as international policemen).
We pride ourselves on being the strongest economically and militarily and believe that we are somehow safely insulated from this very sort of thing, and that is precisely where we were hit. Literally and figuratively.
Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War! (Score:4, Insightful)
You may not have experienced war since WW II, but certainly a number of other countries have experienced war, either directly with U.S. troops or with U.S.-trained and -funded troops. A partial list:
Well, at least most of Africa and Europe have remained free of the grip of American soldiery.
This is why the terrorists engage in these kinds of activities. They do not feel they have anything to lose. Sadly, they may be right: the United States' grasp of realpolitik is incredibly weak.
Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War! (Score:3, Insightful)
We DID pursue the war in full in Japan, the country that institutionalized suicide attacks, and we won - completely, and at great cost. We invaded, and we occupied, and we rebuilt things from the ground up. We didn't try to punish them for all the horrendous things they had done up until that point, but instead helped them create a peaceful and prosperous nation instead. The Japanese and these terrorists may not have thought they had anything left to lose, but they're wrong. They can lose their reason and will to fight.
cryptochrome
rebuilding the towers... (Score:5, Interesting)
Any other thoughts on this matter? Should the towers be rebuilt?
Re:rebuilding the towers... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:rebuilding the towers... (Score:3, Insightful)
We could level the site and put up a memorial and a new park, but I feel that the best memorial will be a bigger Trade Center Complex, with two bigger towers, which will become a new symbol of American resiliance.
I grew up in New York City, and I know a bit about the spirit of the city. Its people are all very resiliant, and will show the world that they can handle this tragedy. They will take time to mourn, of course, but after, they will have to go on with their lives. Their lives will be changed, for sure, but they will go on, because they can't live any other way.
Re:rebuilding the towers... (Score:4, Insightful)
These days office space is in a glut. Who is going to fill those enormous towers (esp. given the state of our current economy, which isn't going to be improving any time soon in light of today's events)?
More to the point, who is going to *want* to work in those buildings after what happened today?
I agree that it's not necessarily a bad idea, especially as a way of bringing the country together, but these are one of a few realities that such a project would have to face.
As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?
Re:rebuilding the towers... (Score:4, Interesting)
"As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?"
read: a hijacked plane. not *any* plane, but one that's already been hijacked. Reinforce the cockpit door and walls, add a system where the pilots could monitor the cabin via hidden video cameras, and where they could notify ground sources of their situation if necessary, and in case of breach, hand control of the aircraft over to ground control. However, this hand-off could only be initiated by the aircraft itself. The facial/fingerprint recognition is a good idea as well.
This way a hijack would need to be two-pronged. It would have to attack the plane, but also take hte ground control. Exponentially harder to coordinate.
As another poster already mentioned, 90% of the systems are already in place. Autopilot is used all the time during takeoff and landing.
One other failsafe possibility. Install a safety mechanism to handover control of air traffic from one tower to another in case of attack. For those of you who never saw "pushing tin" or any documentaries on air traffic control, skilled terrorists could probably do 10x the damage they did today if they had targeted the towers at laguardia, newark, and JFK all at once, and directed the aircraft to fly into eachother.
But i'm sure you've all seen Die Hard 2...
Re:rebuilding the towers... (Score:3, Interesting)
News Links (Score:5, Informative)
World Leaders react [theglobeandmail.com] -- "The following are reactions from around the world to the disasters at New York's World Trade Centre and the Pentagon."
Related Links [theglobeandmail.com] -- US Gov't, US Military, NYC, Airlines, and Anti-Terrorism Resources.
Who Dunnit [bbc.co.uk] -- the BBC "Within minutes of the horrific chain of events unfolding at the World Trade Center, information began emerging suggesting it was not a terrible accident but a terrorist attack."
World Shock [bbc.co.uk] -- BBC "The attacks on New York and Washington have brought swift reactions of horror and condemnation from around the world."
Notable quotable: "But Iraqi television played a patriotic song that begins "Down with America!" as it showed the World Trade Center's towers falling, The Associated Press news agency reported."
America has made a permanent enemy of Iraq. I can't imagine how that will ever be changed.
Also worth noting that many mid-East leaders of all stripes and colours are denouncing this terrorist act.
Don't paint all the mid-East with one brush. This terrorist attack was the action of a very, very small radical group that is roundly despised by many mid-East civilians.
The more I watch this on television, the less real it becomes. Repetition = numb.
The fine line... (Score:5, Insightful)
If we retaliate, will it spawn more violence?
If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?
-digitac
Evil is Evil (Score:5, Informative)
Lets not forget evil is evil and technology has nothing to do with that fact. It's just the means to an end for the evil.
There May Still Be Hope (Score:5, Informative)
Unfortunately, it looks like there were hundreds of people on the ground by the towers watching the fires burn, both when the 2nd plane hit... and when the 1st tower fell.
I've been listing my friends who make it out safe on my website, as well as adding an information I get from 1st and 2nd hand accounts of people who were there. All said it was gruesome, even after just the 1st plane hit. Pictures and a live webcam are on my site. SOMEONE PLEASE MIRROR the terrorism and webcam subsite so I don't get Slashdotted.
http://johnhaller.com/jh/terrorist/
I will also be creating a site tonight to try and help people get in touch and find people affected by this. I will post more when I have it up.
Best wishes for all everyone knows and loves to make it home safe.
Notes for the day... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's ironic and sad...
:( (Score:3, Insightful)
I am not a believer in war and I am not a believer in the loss of lives at any cost. I am trying to understand the necessity of this but I can't.
:(
heres something from my friend in new york (Score:3, Insightful)
I can't even begin to explain how I feel. Dana woke me up this
morning telling me to look out my window. I couldn't believe what I
saw. After standing amazed for a while, I saw the world trade center
collapse. Amazing. It's like a disaster movie, I still can't
believe it's happening.
The entire floor is bonding and finding support from each other.
Classes have been cancelled today, and probably tomorrow. There are
buses going to local hospitals with blood donors. Many people have
family that worked at the World Trade Center, and it's hard to get
info.
It's so strange to look out at the skyline... the smoke is starting
to clear a bit, but how is it NY without those buildings?
Thank you all for your support, I will keep trying to call, but the
lines are really busy. "
My Prayers go out to you all (Score:3, Insightful)
I know I can honestly say - that my entire nation is grieving for your loss.
My thoughts and Prayers to you all.
Love,
-Ryan Peterson
Victoria, BC, Canada
a list of the buisnesses at the WTC (Score:5, Informative)
Technology? (Score:5, Interesting)
What technology? Guy walks into a plane, shoots pilots, and turns the yoke. These events could have happened at any time since the towers were first constructed 30 years ago. What is this rant about technology for?
Bad timing (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the rest, I'd think that now would be a good time to not post articles from JonKatz. Quite frankly his comments are usually rimshot, especially now. And it's not his right to comment that I'm complainin about - everyone has that right here. It's his right to be front page material. Slashdot has its ups, the prior 3 articles fitting there, and it has its downs - and this one is way down there. JonKatz (whether you be a person or an alternate account for some other name on the site), please read your articles before you think to put them on the site, and make sure that they both make sense, and have a point rather than are just there - and in some cases just there and insensitive.
(OT)Page for those who are alive in NYC (Score:5, Informative)
It is said that cell phones are unusable, so people can post their names to make a list of survivors.
And yet... (Score:5, Interesting)
This isn't Armageddon. That sounds too much like the stupid movie and it cheapens the fact that someone somewhere is responsible for this. This is the real thing, and it's not about the planes or the black boxes or the television. It's about the people, because that's what Matters.
Mirrors of news sites; check Google. (Score:5, Informative)
War (Score:5, Insightful)
I am going to agree with Jon, here (gasp!). This is how War is played in the twenty-first century. No one has the power to have a conventional war with the US, so it must result in terrorism and guerilla warfare. Its not pretty, but this is how war has evolved.
Your first reaction is to use our strength to fight back, but as the days start to come between present and this tragedy, you'll find out how terrorist cells work.
Their is very little communication between the cells, and the cells are very sparcely located. Result? Very difficult to find everyone in the organization, and very difficult to march an army in to win the war.
We are at the beginning of a difficult war. Please don't get me wrong, I'd like to see each of these cowardly terrorist recieve slow and painful deaths, but we must be smart, rational, and alert to win.
Retaliation (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't the same as Pearl Harbor (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope Bush has a good plan, because I have no idea what I would do in his shoes (except for maybe go back to Washington and make a comforting speech).
F-bacher
wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong. People turn planes into weapons.
Stuff the drama, Katz. (Score:4, Troll)
Step off the drama, Katz. You haven't said anything particularly important or notable here; it's just the same "Pearl Harbor" hype that the established news outlets are pushing. That might work for the TV masses, but it's not appropriate here.
If you can't post substance, then please don't post. I just get the impression that you only posted because you've got this delusion of yourself as an insightful person who has insightful things to say, and you thought there would be a hole here if your name could not be found.
This article was not insightful. It was a rehash of every other "insightful" thing that has already been on the news today.
-Grant/"JimTheta"
(I know I'm gonna get troll-modded for this, but I need to say it. At least I used my real name, instead of AC'ing it, like so many others.)
Remain rational for months - no witchhunts (Score:5, Insightful)
I fear somthing worse than random beatings of asian-americans by intolerant morons screaming "give us back our pilot" as we experienced when a US spyplane crashed in china. Everyone must make a pledge to not only be rational today, not only be rational for months, but to defend rationalism, wherever you see it diminished. There will be a wave of racism and search for scapegoats like we've never seen. Make sure this enourmous tragedy doesn't get any worse. Do not prejudge any race or person as "terroist", and be sure not to tolerate anyone who does, before they actually have been convicted. Remember, the american way is under attack. Protect it. Don't give in to witch-hunts. The only call for blood we should worry about right now is the one from the red cross!
"Technology turns planes into weapons???" (Score:3, Insightful)
How is this *remotely* a case of "technology" turning planes into weapons? It seems more to be fanatics turning planes into weapons.
And fanatics are nothing new.
New perl harbour, or? (Score:4, Flamebait)
It this your new Perl Harbour, or is it Nagasaki and Hiroshima coming back to haunt you ?
While the events today are of course a perverse display of violence aimed at civilians, no one should be ignorant of the fact that the U.S. themselves are not exactly virgin in the field of hitting very large amounts of civilians with no prior warning what so ever.
Another thing: There is a lot of sentiment that this is Islamic terrorists, or the like. Remember Timothy Mc. Vein ? The press was blowing that one up as a mid-east terrorist attack, until *investigation* reveiled it was in fact a genuine misguided U.S. citizen.
Think people. Don't get carried away in anger with a blind wish for vengence.
Re:New perl harbour, or? (Score:3, Insightful)
I suggest you put up a memorial, reading:
"Let all souls here rest in peace, for we shall not repeat the evil."
The text is taken from the diary of Michihiko Hachiya, written on the 8th of August 1945, when you "saved my country" in Hiroshima.
Pictures of the World Trade Center (Score:5, Informative)
#1467 - 1472 were taken before the second tower collapsed.
#1473 - 1474 is the National Guard deployed on Lexington Ave.
#1775 - 1746 are people trying to get out of Manhattan waiting at a bus stop.
#1477 - 1490 is lower Manhattan at 3pm.
#1491 - 1496 is two blocks from the world trade center at 3pm.
#1497 is a fire boat on the Hudson river.
#1499 - 1503 is the world trade center an surrounding buildings
#1505 is a fire truck damaged by the collapse 2 blocks away from the WTC.
#1507 - 1510 is the WTC.
#1511 - 1512 is a neighboring building.
#1513 - 1515 is the surrounding area to the WTC.
Everyone is free to forward these pictures, and use them without permission. Mirrors are welcome. --Terry
What if there is nobody to retalliate against? (Score:4, Insightful)
In the early aftermath of the heinous attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, there is much speculation that this attack had to be the work of a significant, organized organization. Although we desire to believe that this attack required a large group, one that we could potentially retaliate against, an attack of this magnitude requires only a few individuals and a very small amount of preparation.
It only takes a couple of armed individuals to commandeer a plane in the air once they get a weapon aboard, while a few minutes thought outside an airport checkpoint will reveal a half dozen methods a terrorist could use. Once the terrorists gain control over the plane, it is again straightforward for the terrorists to conduct a controlled crash: readily available flight simulation programs are very powerful, capable of providing the necessary training for a targeted crash.
Thus, a dozen reasonably intelligent zealots, willing to die for their cause, could easily prepare, train, plan, and execute an attack on this scale in under a week. What will we do if it turns out that it was a small group? What will we do if there is nobody left to blame?
Doing what I can to help (Score:3, Insightful)
First off, my heartfelt condolences to those who have lost family, friends, and loved ones in this tragedy.
I met with a number of friends at lunch. Some had loved ones who they had been unable to reach to see if they were okay.
I felt powerless over what had happened, and indeed there is nothing anyone can do to change what has already happened. But, I did what I could, today. I offered a shoulder to cry on. I encouraged them to have hope, to know that not knowing does not mean the worst. That there is already a tremendous pulling together of support. Calls for blood donations, people reaching out to friends they hadn't talked with for a long while, and countless other acts across the country and the world where people offer support to one another.
This tragedy can become a rallying point, an opportunity to show the world what we are made of here in the US of A. The Oklahoma bombing, the flooding of the Mississippi River, hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes. We are a people that has a long history of reaching out to help.
A proverb I've liked: "If I cannot do great things, then I will do small things in great ways." (Don't know who wrote it, sorry.) Each person who lends a hand, a shoulder, a caring heart does something tangible. And all of those seemingly small acts, when taken together, can show the world, and ourselves, that we are greater, MUCH greater, than these attacks.
Foreign Policy 2.0 (Score:5, Insightful)
It is universally accepted that today's events are tragic. Thousands of innocent people were killed and the suffering will encircle their family, friends, and others. Our nation is living in fear.
If this turns out to be the work of a Palestinian terrorist organization (and not a decorated U.S. military veteran), most Americans will rally for retaliation with the full support of our allies. This is also tragic, for we smite Jesus of Nazareth, Ghandi, and all other prophets who have tried to save us from our hatred and anger. At the same time, we commit an act that--in their hearts--must be avenged. The cycle of violence will continue, destroying more innocent lives.
If we can all learn a lesson today, I hope it is this: that all "leaders" assume responsibility for their actions and stop this millenia-long practice of littering the ground with the bodies of their followers. The time has come to upgrade our foreign policy. When political leaders disagree, let them face off in pistol duels.
Ghandi said, (Score:5, Interesting)
M.K. Ghandi
This following is only a sig.
This has *nothing* to do with religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Suicide is a violation of Islamic law as defined by the Koran. These terrorists are not representative of Islam. As Tom Clancy put it on CNN just now -- they *are* fools.
Do you realize what kind of hell on Earth you are advocating when you ignorantly lump people into illogical categories? Such limited "thinking" is the root of sectarian violence around the world, people being murdered simply because they are atached to an artificial label: Protestant or Catholic, Jew or Arab, Black or White.
Those of you who declare "jihad" on all of Islam -- you are no better than the animals who murdered the innocent this morning. Go crawl back in your hole, while the rest of us look for light at the end of the tunnel...
Children (Score:4, Insightful)
>with kids whose parents aren't coming home.
My god.
I didn't realize the tragedy of this all until I read this. I was feeling
quite sorry for all the dead, but the real tragedy is for the still living.
Just imagine you're a 5-10 old kid. Imagine what would mean to you. It
hurts just to try.
Who's the one to tell these kids why their parents are late today?
I think I just couldn't.
--
Xouba,
who just yesterday thought that life was not so bad.
Pearl Harbor? I wish it was that easy. (Score:5, Insightful)
At least the aftermath of Pearl Harbor was easy to grasp and propose solutions for: Japanese national forces attacked American national assets, so the US government sent forces to pound Japan into submission. But we do not have a common enemy to unify against and revile. We do not have an island or a country at which to direct our anger and our weapons.
We weren't attacked by a known enemy. It is more like being mugged and beaten in broad daylight, and not even getting a look at the bastard. And to top it, everyone around you acts as though they didn't see a thing. And this is on a previoiusly unimaginable scale.
So what do we do? Years of painstaking detective work resulting in a trial in the Hague? Anticlimactic and unsatisfying. Nuke the entire Middle East into one big godforsaken glass parking lot? Very satisfying. And it would probably solve the question of Jerusalem by making it uninhabitable for tens of thousands of years. But its a stupid, knee-jerk idea. Don't forget all the cries of "Islamic fundamentalist terrorism" immediately after OKC. Invasion and occupation? Volleys of cruise missles? Impractical and expensive, not to mention where and against who?
Right now it would be a relief to go down to the recruiting office and say "I wanna go kill me some fuckin' (insert demographic), sir" But all I could do was drop off a pint at the bloodbank and stare at Peter Jennings and the Talking Head Band all day.
btw, i do not mean to criticize Jon Katz, just the comparison to Pearl Harbor. He's not the first or only one to mention it - he just gave me an opening to bring it up. I sincerely hope he (and all concerned) finds his people alive and well.
Re:Free Parking (Score:4, Insightful)
Besides, we'd be horrified if we turned Afghanistan into a parking lot and then found out that it was the Elbonians all along.
Re:Time to wake up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure nothing can justify this type of terrorism, but your GI-Joe-inspired concepts of American military superiority winning any battle and surpressing any enemy are so childish I can't help but chuckle.
Time and time again throughout history oppressive empires have been toppled by the downtrodden masses. You spoiled brats think that the threat of unrelenting military armageddon would be enough to scare anyone into submission. You also think that our role as the major world power is unsurmountable because we have such enormous resources at are disposal.
You have to step outside of your capitalism-brainwashed, MTV-soaked minds and realize that the people who are propagating this kind of terrorism FEAR NOTHING because they do not value the world order. The only way to stomp out these terrorists would be mass genocide. If you are advocating mass genocide then you REALLY need to check your righteous self, because America is anything but a model of ethical international relations.
I repeat myself now, because this is the absolute truth. If America continues it's greedy self-serving ways, this is only the beginning of the tragedy that will strike us. It's time to embrace our success as a way to benefit the world.
Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted (Score:4, Informative)
Here's his post copied for your convience. Please mod him up.
Re:fp - mev (Score:5, Informative)
On opening day of what is still a very popular (and large) trade show, attendance was shockingly, and understandably, low. The CNN building directly across the street stood empty, evacuated against the remote possibility that it might be a target.
Streaming media products were quickly retooled and retasked. Clusters of stunned attendees and staff gathered around state-of-the-art flat panels and projection screens as today's events progressed. The 2x4 edge-to-edge video wall within the NOC has been displaying streaming media and television all day, workstation monitors spun to face outward so passerby's can have other places to view.
By 1 pm, Interop team volunteers were paired with Event staff to canvass the show floors to advise exhibitors that we'd be closing the show floor early to allow people to depart where possible. In between, people are emailing, messaging, calling, checking on loved ones. As I write this, Interop team members are still clustered within the I-Labs area, watching live newsfeeds streamed over the grid.
The shock of the incident is incredible. This is the kind of tragedy you see in movies and pray never happens. During one of a couple meetings today, someone present for the Oklahoma City bombing brought up a powerful notion: The victims of these tragedies, and the people they leave behind, need to know there is support for them, that people care. I consider myself to be a fairly thick skinned individual, and this event has struck me to the core.
We, as a chorus, are the voice of the world. Take the time to show your support. Resist the kneejerk response to lash out in anger. Even more, demolish the impulse to turn this into a laughing matter.
Allow me a brief moment to express some outrage: Within hours of the initial incident, the remains of the WTC were placed for auction on eBay. I'm sure someone thought it was funny. I'm sure some people still think it's funny. I hope those of you who do mention it in mixed company, and have to face down the family member of a victim of today's incredible tragedy.
If I could I *would* mod you down... (Score:4, Insightful)
Everyone seemed pretty damn certain Oklahoma City was an outside terrorist toying with our country, we all know how that ended up.
Sheep are people that go with the flow, they are lead one direction or another. Trust me, I've dealt with a few.
So while you may or may not be correct in your assumptions, don't play victim to the moderators when you are making assumptions and speculating as to who may have done this.
The "root of it all" may turn out to be domestic terrorism. And if so, you'd really look bad.
Re:If I could I *would* mod you down... (Score:5, Insightful)
The "root of it all" may turn out to be domestic terrorism. And if so, you'd really look bad.
Thank you. This is the first objective reply I've gotten (of course, I've posted rather irrationally for the past few hours, so I can understand some of the angry words). You make a very good point that I hadn't thought of.
Your reply is exactly why I read/post to slashdot in the first place. I'd be the first to admit I don't have everything figured out, so I deliberately post my flaming, raw, unrationalized opinions to
It's all a social experiment: I'd rather be modded as a troll on