An Ignition Interlock In Every Car? 1690
ryeguy-nm writes "Monday the New Mexico House of Representatives passed a bill that would require every car sold in the state to have an ignition interlock. This device is essentially a breath analyzer that prevents the car from being started if the driver is drunk. The bill would require that every new car sold be equipped with an ignition interlock by 2008 and every used car by 2009. Ignition interlocks require a breath test, which takes 30 seconds to complete, to start the car as well as random 'rolling retests' to discourage others from taking the test for you. These rolling retests require the driver to take the test as the car is moving. If the driver fails a retest, the horn sounds and the lights flash until the car is turned off. The bill's lead proponent is Dem. Ken Martinez who believes the bill is a quick fix for New Mexico's drunk driving problems. Opponents of the bill argue that it penalizes car dealerships and law abiding citizens who have never driven drunk. The bill makes no mention of who will have to pay for the device, but it will most likely be auto dealers and citizens who have to sell their cars. It seems to me that impinging upon the liberty of an entire state is a little bit too extreme. Perhaps tougher penalties and larger fines for people who actually drive drunk would be a better idea."
laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:laws (Score:4, Insightful)
Ban parking lots at establishments that serve alcohol. With the new blood-alcohol limits, it doesn't take much to put an average human over the limit. Having a parking lot at a bar is like being an accessory to the crime.
But that would limit government tax income and police revenue. So they certainly couldn't do *that*.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't be dumb. That's like saying a hardware store that sells pipes is contributing to people building pipe bombs.
On one hand, it's a true statement. On the other hand it's an absolutely stupid statement.
Re:laws (Score:5, Funny)
At least if he's president someone else will be driving most of the time.
Stephen
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
So because you can't control yourself at an establishment that's serving alcohol it becomes the establishments fault? Why don't you take some responsibility for your own actions instead of expecting the Government or the bar-owner to do it for you? I've been at the height of shitfaced before and still had the higher reasoning abilities to say "Ok, I'm done drinking" for whatever reason (money, needed to drive the next day, etc). I also have the self-control to limit myself to one or two drinks if I know that I have to drive to get home.
What's next? Is it McDonalds fault if you can't control yourself when they open a restaurant two blocks from your house and you gain 200 pounds?
Instead we're going to get all these misdirected attempts to punish everyone (whether it's in-car breathalyzers or disappearing parking lots)
No argument there. But your statement of "the restaurants are contributing to the problem" belies the type of "Nanny-state" mentality that allows laws like this to be passed. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.
It's insane that in a country where simple possession of a naturally growing plant can land you a felony conviction that being found guilty of drunk driving isn't a life-destroying event.
Umm being found guilty of DWI is a life-destroying event. It will cost you at least ten years of your life. You are going to lose your license -- there's a good chance you will lose your job -- your Insurance rates are going to increase anywhere from 3x to 10x times depending on the state (I work for an insurance agency and I've seen policies go from $600 to $4,500 over DWI convictions), it'll be published in the paper, your friends are probably going to turn their backs on you and there's a good chance you'll be doing some jail time and/or paying pretty big fines.
What do you mean by "life-destroying event"? Should we lock up DWI'ers for 15 years to life? That seems a little harsh -- unless they killed someone -- in which case they can be charged under existing (Manslaughter) laws and punished appropriately. If nobody got hurt then I think the existing punishments are more then ample.
The last thing we need is more laws on the books.
Re:laws - bullshit! (Score:5, Interesting)
You are assuming each and everyone of us are unable to drink alcohol in a moderate way. It is not about the taxes collected from the sales of alcohol, but about our freedom.
I do not need an idiot senator or a frustrated, clueless individual like yourself to make new laws that require people to respect laws that are already there. The argument is stupid.
Maybe we could ban the internet too, eh? Making this evil technology available to the public is being accessory to crime, because we know the internet is only used to download music illegaly.
If you have an alcohol problem and you can't behave in public places, get some help. I'm certainly not willing to give away my rights just because you're a moron.
Re:laws - bullshit! (Score:5, Interesting)
I would trust this lots more if I weren't aware of the calibration problems with low-end breath testers, and I doubt the expensive units will be affordable for this purpose.
Re:laws - bullshit! (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, for a 200 lb man you would need >4 drinks in a two hour period. A drink is defined as 1 1/2 oz 80% proof booze, or 12oz beer/wine. This assumes a normal person, with a healthty liver.Here is a little tester Breath Wheel [intox.com]
As for the poorly calibrated breathalyzer, the police must maintaine records of the machine being calibrated. If you are ever stopped, refuse the field test and ask to be taken to an ER for a blood test. Make sure they use soap and water and not an alchol wipe before they draw the blood. This will be the most accurate level.
Re:laws - bullshit! (Score:5, Interesting)
If you were in Pennsylvania when this happened, let me be the first to congratulate you on losing your license for 12 months.
When you receive a PA drivers license, you agree in advance to consent to a breath test if stopped and that you understand that failure to comply will result in 12 month suspension of the license regardless of its outcome.
- Tony
Re:laws - bullshit! (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow. The first time you slow down and re-read that, you'll realize your logic could justify taking away any and all rights.
Re:laws (Score:5, Interesting)
As far as I can tell, the government (Ontario) almost encourages drinking and driving. They make no effort to allow people to find out their BAC before getting in the car. Instead of the cops sitting a mile down the road from the bar, how about they stand right outside the bar and check people on the way out. Better yet, make breathalizers even more accessable than that. Every bar should have one, or even personal ones. I think a lot of people end up driving because they think they are okay, but have no way of knowing for sure. Granted they shouldn't drive at all, but that will never happen.
The other problem is that the affermentioned city, and most other places I've been to, enforce that all cars must be off the streets at 3AM. What better way than to promote drinking and driving? The driver maybe doesn't want to move their car after they had one too many. But they have no choice, or pay the parking fine.
If government really wanted to stop drinking and driving they could almost eliminate it by making a few small changes. But I think they'd rather have the money come in, and risk a few deaths.
Re:laws (Score:5, Informative)
I don't need yet another thing for the government to do for me. If you aren't able to judge your ability to drink, buy a breatalizer.
Better yet, make breathalizers even more accessable than that.
You can buy a DOT certified breathalizer for about $100. A DUI in California costs about $10,000 by the time you're done with it. Hmmm. Going to have a drink now and then, don't rely on the govenrnment, do it yourself. You can also buy "go/no-go" strips for less than a dollar. Put one in your mouth and you're over/under depending on the color.
Sorry, but I hate hearing what the government should "do for us". Arrrrrggggghhhhh!!!!
how to start each of these new laws... (Score:5, Interesting)
we will need a federal statute to make it happen. write your congresscritter now.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:laws (Score:5, Funny)
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously, basic issues (murder, theft, etc.) would be exempt from this sort of thing, but the majority of laws - especially those pertaining to technology - should live their useful life and go away.
Even better would be a restriction that only the core parts of a bill, not any ancillary additions (i.e., unrelated pork-barrel spending, etc.), which would have to be renewed separately.
It would mean a lot more work for congresses in the future, but that could be dealt with when the need arises.
Sunset provisions [tallahassee.com] are a really good idea!!
Re:laws (Score:5, Interesting)
"Oh, restricting black people from voting is a basic issue, there's no reason to review that at any point in the future."
We just don't know what laws we currently have that are going to be deemed acceptable in the future, so why presume that we do in certain situations?
Also, I wouldn't worry about adding work for congresspeople; either they'll hate the extra work and be discouraged from making needless legislation, or they'll like it because they can reasonably give themselves higher salaries and larger staffs, and we'll still get sunset provisions. It's win-win.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously, basic issues (murder, theft, etc.) would be exempt from this sort of thing..
You underestimate what a powerdrunk government that doesn't want to give up that power can do. If you give them ANY loophole, they WILL find dirty, underhanded ways to exploit it. Look at the copyright situation. It's so assbackwards now from what it's supposed to be that the people that originally debated it would probably get sick to their stomachs if they saw how the issue has been butchered. Look at the way we tried to circumvent basic rights in this country by declaring people "enemy combatants" - an inoccuous term that just sprang into existance when convenient to take advantage of the "state of emergency" we're perpetually in. Doing things like that is like saying that the current laws don't work, so we need special ones to take their place. It doesn't matter WHY someone is criminal, if they're a criminal they're a criminal and we already have a setup to deal with them. Why do we need special exceptions for different types of criminals? They're just exploiting loopholes to garner additional power they're not supposed to have.
You can't trust the government to do the right thing - this country is based on that principle. Why do you think each of the three branches is supposed to keep the others under control? Why do you think the constitution is written in ways that suggest the framers expected the government to get out of hand? It's only natural that it will take every chance to grab more power. There should be NO exceptions. If the law isn't enforced or renewed, it dies - NO EXCEPTIONS.
Re:laws (Score:5, Interesting)
But it also creates uncertainty, in that every time the administration changes, or power in the senate or house shifts parties, all the work done by the previous congress could be reversed through a "review".
Don't many laws already have sunset provisions?
Sunrise, sunset.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Most especially, think of the effect of having a sunset law for various pieces of the bureaucracy. If Department of Redundancy Department knows that their funding/enabling legislation will expire in the next year, they would then take all their time to find reasons why they are indispensable and ever so valuable. Veritable bulwark of democracy. , they are (or so you'd believe if you listened to them).
I don't quite know how it should work, but I'd propose having a "Law Lottery". Every year 20 percent of the laws would be picked at random and reviewed (really random!). This means laws would probably be reviewed relatively quickly on average. If the legislature did not vote to retain the law within one month it would be tossed out. The law would need at least a 3/4 positive vote of the legislature (both houses in the case of bicamerality) to remain in place (but no executive approval). A law could continue on an "emergency" basis for one year with a 2/3 majority but would then expire completely. The short time frame is to make it tougher to plan/fund campaigns of special interests to support it.
If nothing else it would keep our idiot bastard legislators busy enough so they'd not have as much time to meddle in everything else.
Sadly, it would not work. Someone would rig the lottery. The well funded special interests would pay well to have instant notification of a review and would have lobbyists ready to jump in at a moments notice where the citizens would probably never get notified so would not have an opportunity to speak. (I know, what else is new.) Legislatures would pass hundreds of junk laws just to reduce the probability that real laws would be picked.
But still, its a fun idea.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
I can hardly wait for the first time some stranded motorist dies up in Mesa country during the winter because he can't start his car to run the heater (either because of a malfunction in the interlock somewhere, or because he took a swig of booze in an effort to stay warm).
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm betting more on an accident caused by a distracted driver who has to take a "rolling retest" on a busy highway instead of concentrating on the road. And this, in the midst of banning cell phones (both handheld and not) because they are a distraction.
Also, to a lesser extent, people who have to take up to and extra 30 seconds to start up a car, but don't have that luxury due to an emergency (hospital, flight out of fear, etc.)
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't rule a nation of innocents. The more laws, the more criminals, and the more power (hence profit) for those who control government.
There is a very good reason why government has a tendency to expand over time: because it benefits those in power.
Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.) (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.) (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.) (Score:5, Insightful)
How about you get rid of the DUI laws and just give people tickets for driving dangerously, regardless of what the cause is?
Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.) (Score:5, Informative)
This must be true as I don't think we could handle anywhere near 9% alcohol in our blood.
Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.) (Score:5, Funny)
Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.) (Score:5, Insightful)
In response to you, "If you don't like it, go to China"
Never thought I'd get to use that phrase, but these are twisted times we live in. Civil disobedience doesn't work thanks to shows like "Cops" where it's entertainment to see people getting beaten and arrested. Police corruption and vigilantism isn't called for anymore thanks to movies like "Training Day". Execution is favored by people who are pro-life.
Dogs and cats live together.
Mass hysteria.
We already do (Score:4, Insightful)
We already do in the form of higher insurance payments, loss of life and limb etc.
Re:We already do (Score:5, Funny)
Re: Devices (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, a minor found driving while truely intoxicated ( at the adult limit in their state ) should be convicted of DUI as should anyone else, but applying the much harsher penalties meant to deter irresponsible drunk drivers from killing people to responsible minors who drink illegally and happen to be driving home with a safe BAL that is above zero is stupid and cruel.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Probably not since laws of this type tend to get pre-empted by federal laws. In any case the bill has not been passed into law, it is currently being considered by the Senate.
This is an election year, so time to grab headlines. Making proposals of this sort is a game the congressmen like to play. You get someone to propose some new law that would cost an industry a large sum of money. Then their lobbyists are forced to cough up plenty of cash in bribes to try and stop it.
Car dealers tend to be significant donors in local politics. The dealers are a group like the taxi-owners, they depend on political favors for their business. Most states have laws that prevent car manufacturers from selling direct to the customer, cutting out the dealer. The dealers also lobby to prevent increases in car purchase taxes as a quick fix for budget shortfalls. This bill probably means that some local dealers failed to pay the necessary protection money this year.
A new variation of this game is you get a bill passed in a state and then the industry is forced to pre-empt the legislation at the federal level, which extracts huge bucks.
Sure both sides play this sort of game. But it has become more blatant since the GOP won control of congress and even more blatant still after DeLay deposed Gingrich.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
And we're talking about state politics here...I love how you snuck in the GOP in general and DeLay/Gingrich. But since you brought it up (and at the risk of being modded flamebait):
The DNC does exactly the opposite. They just buy votes by promising their constituency they'll give money to them that they took at gunpoint from someone else (welfare, "universal" healthcare, etc).
They vote to take money away from states in the form of taxing that states' citizens then force those states to comply with national regulations in order for that state to get it's money back. Without taking the money from the state to begin with, they would have no constitutional authority to force these things on states. Yes, both sides are guilty here too (No Child Left Behind) but we all know who is worse at it.
This is not extortion?
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
If I work harder than you at the above-mentioned things, you're exactly right! I do deserve more.
(BTW, please don't ask how we satisfy our fundamentalist Christian constituency while at the same time enacting laws that go against the most basic tenets of the Judeo-Christian ethic: the Golden Rule and the admonishment to help those less fortunate...we can't figure it out either!)
Stating that people should be responsible for their own needs to the best of their ability is *not* admonishing someone! This country is incredible and almost anyone can and has made a success out of themselves with hard work. How do you think we have *so* many immigrants in this country that come here and open up gas stations, restaurants, etc and are all successful? It's because they work hard and build something with their own two hands. They do it by working 14 hours a day so they don't have to hire help to run their businesses. The fact is that people want to live a good life and not have to work for it. Why do you think so many people who are poor will go and pay so much money on the lottery a month when they could take that same amount of money, drop it in an IRA and actually have something to show for it after a few years? It goes back to that smarter thing you were talking about earlier.
As far as the bitch slap about the fundamentalist Christian mess, you could make the same argument about liberals. Liberals (from my observations) believe anyone with Christian religious beliefs is obviously an ignorant, inbred hick while Muslims are simply misunderstood (I have nothing against Muslims, there just seems to be a double standard). They believe all politicians should denounce any belief in God.
Oh yeah, our (God forbid) fundamentalist Christian beliefs tell us that we should provide for our families and not wait around for someone else to do it for us with money stolen from those who are actually working.
People who are poor have obviously screwed up something in their lives. Don't give me this crap about people's circumstances being different. I don't believe it. I was born in a house in the middle of the North Georgia without electricity. My parents could hardly read. I put myself through college with student loans (available to anyone who didn't wreck their credit at age 18). I didn't have the grades in high school to get into a decent school so I started out at the local community college and eventually brought my grades up to the point that I was accepted (after 4 rejections) to Georgia Tech. I gradated there in 99 with a CS degree. Don't talk to me about poor people. I'm probably more qualified on the subject than most.
It's all about hard work and accountability for one's own actions.
For the life of me, the one thing I can't understand is why liberals continuously complain about government, call it evil and burn it's symbols, yet continue to give that government more power by surrendering more money to it.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Am I the only one that thinks as evil as Drunk Driving is (I nearly lost my sister to a Drunk Driver) we are giving away too many civil liberties over it?
MADD [madd.org] are a bunch of fanatics imho. Why am I required to give evidence against myself if I get pulled over? In my state if you refuse a BAC test you automatically lose your license. The cop can ask you take one even if you haven't touched a glass of booze in months -- and you have no right to refuse.
Enforcement of DWI laws is out of hand too. I've personally been pulled over three different times (two of those times I hadn't been drinking at all -- the third time I had two drinks in a four hour period) on bullshit excuses (loud muffler on my brand new 2003 car with less then 12,000 miles on it) then immediately asked "Have you been drinking?" They shouldn't have the right to even ask that question without some sort of probable cause -- and he had none. I find it hard to believe that he smelled liquor on my breath when I hadn't had a drink in two weeks!
The third time I was actually forced to take the BAC test because I made the mistake of answering "Yes" to the question. He attempted to make me take the roadside sobriety tests -- which I refused. He then claimed that I would lose my license -- to which I replied I could only lose it for refusing the chemical test -- not the "Walk on the line" tests. I blew a 0.018 -- real threat to society there! I received no apology after the fact in any of these incidents for the way I was treated like a common criminal -- the third time I received a lecture! I replied to this lecture with an observation about how I was the DD for three people who were shitfaced and how my taxes pay his salary -- to which I was told "Son, don't let me see you here again." Quite the arrogant statement considering as how the Officer appeared to be less then 5 years older then myself.
I'm sorry as evil as drunk driving is we don't check our civil rights every time we climb into an automobile. What part of the 5th amendment rights against self-incrimination don't they understand?
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
I wasn't charged with anything. I was pointing out the humiliation of being forced to blow into a plastic tube (i.e.: guilty until proven innocent) because I had two drinks over four hours ago. Enforcement of DWI laws is getting out of hand when I can be pulled over merely for leaving a parking lot that is sometimes used by a bar and forced to give evidence against myself. The first two times I was pulled over I hadn't been drinking at all! Yet I was instantly asked "Have you been drinking tonight sir?" I regard that as a personal insult.
What's next? Are they going to round up all the adult males within a two mile radius of a sexual assault and force them to give DNA samples? If they attempted this there would be outcry -- yet they do the same thing with DWI laws on a daily basis and nobody says anything.
0.018? That is less than 0.02 which means even under many states "zero" tolerance laws (i.e. for those under 21)
That's another rant. I love how I can be drafted into military service if Congress deems it necessary at 18 yet I can't touch booze until I'm 21. I have a constitutionally protected right to vote at 18 but I can't drink. You can't have it both ways people -- either I can't be drafted, vote, forced to pay taxes, or be charged as an adult until I'm 21 or I can drink at 18.
There's other problems as other posters have pointed out too. How about being charged with public intoxication if you are walking home drunk? I love that one -- damned if you do damned if you don't. Why should I be forced to get a ride with friends or take a taxi if my house is within walking distance -- as long as I'm not being loud or obnoxious?
Politicians love doing anything that looks like they are fighting DWI because it scores them cheap political points. Whose going to stand up and defend drunks anyway? Hell it's an election year after all...
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Nonsense. At most you've demonstrated you're possible intention to drive. It may alternately demonstrate your intention to listen to the radio, roll down the power windows, or plug your cell phone into the cigarette lighter socket to call a cab. Keys in the ignition + seat belt, maybe, but even then the fact that you're not operating a motor vehicle makes calling it a DUI pretty fascist. It may be true that it's a lot easier to arrest drunk drivers if you can nail 'em just for sitting in the driver's seat with their keys in the ignition, but that also means that people who had no intention of driving drunk (but don't know the draconian extent of the law) get DUI's as well. The problem is the whole notion of "proactive law enforcement". By making a whole set of activities that are merely possible precursors to crime themselves illegal, the definition of criminal acts expands to include people who have hurt no one, would not have hurt anyone, and/or never had any intention of doing anything that would have hurt someone. Why not make it a DUI to posess car keys while drunk? It sounds stupid, but it makes as much sense as making it a DUI to listen to the radio or roll down the window from the driver's seat while drunk. More laws won't stop people from being criminals; more laws just creates more criminals.
Whatever happened.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:5, Interesting)
The police normally don't bother to take the vehicle apart to find the hidden switch...
I would have to agree that more testing and more testing is the only successful way (like they do over here around new year (december/january: drinking under influence drops significantly, only to rise again in february
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:5, Interesting)
From a link [ignition-interlock.com] link further down the page....
PRODUCT AND DESIGN FEATURES
Hum Tone: Requires the client to deliver a hum resonance while blowing the alcohol test prior to starting the vehicle. Deters techniques utilized to mimic human breath or to absorb alcohol.
This is good, if you are concerned about people faking it.
Random or Fixed Retest: Programmable. The client is alerted and given a grace period to retest after the vehicle is put into the run state. The test can be delivered while operating the vehicle or after pulling off the road. Breath test refusal or failure is recorded and sanctions are imposed, including honking of the car's horn. Deters drinking after completing a sober start and vehicle idling at bars.
Probably most useful for DUI offenders, not for everyone...but who knows how far this legislation will go?
Bypass Detect: If a vehicle is started and the breath test is not passed, the horn will begin honking until the vehicle is turned off or a breath test is successfully completed. All events are recorded. Deters hot-wiring and push-starting of vehicles.
There had better be a small amount of time that the vehicle can be driven before the test but after you start the car. Otherwise, that 30 seconds is going to be a major pain. Not only that, but what if you are fleeing from an attacker? I guess our own personal safety isn't as important as those on the road who might be killed if I end up behind the wheel drunk (which, statistically, the majority of people do not do.)
Events Log: A built-in memory chip records all events associated with the use or misuse of the device. Reports are generated through a personal computer in a summary and complete hard-copy format.
Cool.. Now when are these reports read? For DUI offenders, it's presumably fairly often. For everyone else...when? When you get your car inspected? These things had better have a pretty big memory.
Violations Reset: Programmable. If the predetermined number of violations occurs during a monitoring period, an early inspection is required within three (3) days. Failure to report will result in immobilization of the vehicle. Violations are quickly identified and reported to the jurisdiction.
Again, most useful with DUI offenders. But honestly, after one violation, I'd think that you'd want inspection.
Service Reminder Reset: Reminds the client of a scheduled monitoring check. Failure to have the device monitored within the prescribed time period results in the device interlocking.
Power Interrupt: A dated record, in the event 12 volt power has been disconnected or interrupted. The device maintains memory through an onboard back-up lithium battery. This condition (other than tampering) can occur when a vehicle's battery is disconnected due to repairs or is replaced. Clients are required to provide documentation of repairs.
Whoa whoa whoa.... So if my battery dies, I'm fucked? No documented repair. This absolutely is only good for DUI offenders, because frankly, it's an unreasonable burden on your average person. I change my own batteries. There are also times when I take the battery off for other reasons. I should just be able to, period. Demanding documentation as to why the battery was removed is simply unacceptable unless there is good cause to believe that I was trying to get around the system.
Vehicle Restart: In the event of a vehicle stall, the driver has a grace period during which the ignition can be turned off and re-engaged without having to submit an additional breath test.
This somewhat mitigates the 30 second timer, but it also leads me to believe that that timer is a hard limit, and that this device actually prevents the car from being started until the check has completed. That's scary, to me. 30 seconds is a long time. Get a stopwatch, go outside, sit in your car for 30 seconds. It's an unreasonable imposition for someone who has neither broken the law, nor has a history of alcohol problems.
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Imagine going down the freeway at 60+mph and having to fiddle around for the tester to keep the car running! Your options are
1) Take your eyes off the road and concentrate on the test
2) Don't test, and hav ethe car stall
Neither of these sound especially safe to me.
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Whatever happened.... (Score:5, Insightful)
So you feel that the poor should be fined in such a way as to seriously impact their monthly food budget, while the rich should be fined in a way with no discernible impact on their lives whatsoever? Why should the poor be punished much, much more severely for the same crime?
Will last about 1/2 hour... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ignition interlocks are a tool for those who need them. They are monitored strictly under the guidelines of whatever court ordered it. Just throwing them onto cars without the monitoring is simply a waste of time.
This has been tried before. Anyone remember seat belt interlocks from the early 70's? Didn't think so - that's how long that bright idea lasted.
Re:Will last about 1/2 hour... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Will last about 1/2 hour... (Score:5, Funny)
How is the guy who tests if the interlock is working going to drive home?
Could have been worse... (Score:5, Funny)
Um, why not just for DUIs? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Um, why not just for DUIs? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Um, why not just for DUIs? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, that would never work, because the drunks would just find a way to disable or trick the thing. The people most affected by this would be the regular, law-abiding folks who are too scared to try disabling it.
And wow, is life going to suck for them.
Think of a family where more than one person shares the same car, i.e., most families. Yeah, I'm gonna want to blow into the same nasty tube as everyone else, including Mom who has a horrible stomach virus at the moment, Grandpa who needs some bridgework done soon because his teeth are kinda disintegrating, and Junior who smokes 3 packs a day of the cheapest cigarettes he can find.
Don't even try to tell me that tube will be nice and pristing, either. Anyone who's ever played a wind instrument knows there's a lot of spit involved. If everyone has their own mouthpiece, does that mean you have to carry it around with you all day? What do you do when it fell out of your pocket into the urinal, but you have to get home somehow?
And good lord, what about rental cars?
Then there are the time issues. 30 seconds before you can start the car seems not too bad on the face of it. Your aren't usually driving accident victims to hospitals, and so on (though of course if you're late for work you're going to be pretty pissed off, just sitting there waiting).
Now change the situation. It's -10 F outside, and you want to start your car to warm it up, then run back inside. That's right, that remote starter you were so thrilled to get for Christmas is useless now.
Okay, now imagine your battery's low, and you can't get it started on the first few tries. If you're really lucky, the flaky power will cause some odd behavior in the breath analyser, too!
Next: what does the thing do when it breaks? When it's molded over from too much spit? Oh, just drive it to a nearby garage. Wait, did I say drive? I meant push. Unless of course it lets you start the car when it malfunctions... in which case I guarantee there are going to be a lot of "malfunctions" that people "didn't notice" so they haven't had their unit fixed.
</sarcasticRant>
I applaud the sentiment -- drunk driving is a serious problem and needs continuing efforts to stop it -- but this seriously affects the quality of life for NON-offenders without even significantly helping the problem.
Re:Um, why not just for DUIs? (Score:5, Insightful)
So, once again, our government is pursuing a technology that authorizes the use of some item deemed too dangerous to operate for "us" ignorant subjects. We've already been through this with biometric auth in handguns. Look: A car ignition system is a fairly simple device to understand. All that fancy stuff like a think steering column guard, steel keyhole guard and double-sided key- it just protects two wires. Cross those two wires, and a relay shuts and spins up the starter. There is going to have to be a whole other agency to inspect these vehicles for compliance. It will be prohibitively expensive. The random tests would be more of a distraction than a loud radio and wireless phone combined. It won't be 100% accurate (oops, you used a strong mouthwash this morning?) What's to stop a driver from drinking until he is intoxicated while he is driving around?
If DUI is such a runaway problem in NM, why don't they:
1. Put a freeze on liquor licensing for about 10 years.
2. Raise taxes on alcoholic beverages to...
3.
4. Suspend licenses for a minimum of 90 days after a DUI arrest
5. Have police include popular bars and package stores in their routes at night (very effective way to catch drunks in the Northeast).
I see a lot of huffing about blood alcohol levels, but I've yet to see a study that includes information about where the drunks are coming from. Do they drink at home? Do they drink in a bar? Do they go to a package store and drink while they drive home?
no thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
We do already have this in Ontario as some sort of punishment for convicted DUI'ers and I think its a great idea for them - but as a non-drinker-and-driver I wouldnt want to deal with the inconvience on a daily basis, and I think I can speak for everyone else who fits that criteria.
Re:no thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
For the rest of us, this would be just a big pain in the ass.
Re:no thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Substantial delay in starting your own car plus random distracton while driving has no appeal to you?
This test is UNBEATABLE! (Score:5, Funny)
Wait, none of that is true.
What the story doesn't mention is the Special Edition model for bishops and politicians. When they fail a drunk test, a HUD shows up on the windshield and locks on to pedestrians. Makes life a LOT easier, let me tell you.
Re:This test is UNBEATABLE! (Score:5, Insightful)
There are so many implications it's not funny.
1) Carjacker's paradise. Carjacker now has a good 30 seconds while the person is blowing into a fucking tube.
2) Disease. What about rental cars? What if a friend wants to drive you home in your car and you're sick. What if you've got Obsessive Compulsive disorder? Did they really think this through?
3) Emergency. I can't wait until someone sues the state because they couldn't get someone to the hospital because it took them an extra 30 seconds to start the fucking car OR it was life or death and they were drunk. If my kid or wife was dying and I was drunk and I had no other choice, I'd risk it.
4) People with lung problems can't drive now? What if you have asthma? Does this cause problems? I don't know but I suspect there could be problems.
They should have much stricter drunk driving laws for DUI offenders, not make breathalizers necessary for every citizen. If that becomes law and I lived there, I'd probably exit the state.
Re:This test is UNBEATABLE! (Score:4, Insightful)
Special Edition model for bishops and politicians.
Here in New Mexico, that's part of the problem.
Clearly, this is an unwieldy technical solution to a social problem: drunk driving would be cured in a hurry if strict laws were accompanied by adequate funding for the courts, which are way overloaded (letting people off due to technicalities) and by an attitude shift.
Currently, there is an attitude that "taking away the vehicle of the family breadwinner" would constitute an undue hardship on some individual. Yes, it would. But having that individual kill off some other family's breadwinner constitutes what I would call "an undue hardship" on that other family.
A lot of these issues have come to a head over the past 10 years or so after a couple of spectacular fatal accidents involving drunk drivers. That, and a newspaper reporter uncovering that one guy was still behind the wheel after being arrested 27 times for DWI.
[BTW, a similar line of arguments are responsible for New Mexico's high rate of uninsured motorists on the highways. But that's another story.]
Speaking of politician stories, though, you'll like this one.
A few years back in New Mexico a member of the state legislature was arrested for DWI. (Not the first time that such an event took place.)
His defense attorney mounted an effort to get the charges dismissed based on the "human brewery defense". The argument was that food items ingested by the defendant during lunch had started to ferment in his stomach and to produce the alcohol that was certainly observed in the administered tests. [Fortunately, I don't think the defense's story was bought].
Good luck trying to leave in a hurry... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's idiocy to punish all for the idiocy of few. Why do I have to pay more and be subject to this if I don't drink and drive?
Re:Good luck trying to leave in a hurry... (Score:5, Informative)
But, (Score:5, Funny)
Re:But, (Score:5, Insightful)
Although the fact that rolling retests are possible means that it should be possible to let the car start and drive away without a test, but if a test isn't taken within, say, 60 seconds, then the alarms start going off, etc. Solves the "quick getaway" problem, though then we are back to the issue of fumbling with the gear while you're driving.
Creative punishment (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Creative punishment (Score:5, Funny)
Where to start .... (Score:5, Insightful)
The real point is the argument for drunk driving. Now don't get all up in arms hear but listen first. In the US you are innocent until proven guilty. This is one of the first laws that convict a person before he has committed any wrongdoing. I am all for throwing the book at somebody who has maimed or killed another after getting behind the wheel, but when that person has not harmed another and we presume he will that is being guilty before any crime has been committed. If I hold a knife while drunk, does that mean I should be liable for stabbing an innocent bystander before the crime has been committed? Constitution? Liberty? Freedom? They are all thrown out the window in the fight against that evildoer known as the drunk driver. I should note that I do not drive after drinking, not because of the law but because I am a responsible person who believes I should be responsible for my own actions.
START THE FLAMES !!!!!!
Re:Where to start .... (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words they thought they were still safe drivers (and they were well under any blood-alcohol limit), but in fact they were dangerously overconfident.
I respectfully suggest that you are doing the same thing.
Oh this makes sens... huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh this makes sens... huh? (Score:5, Funny)
There should also be a periodic eye exam for older drivers where an eye chart drops down in front of the driver and they have to read off the bottom row.
Its clearly the auto makers who are at fault in every accident by letting unqualified drivers operate their cars.
Excuse for the cops (Score:5, Funny)
A device called Pass Time (Score:5, Interesting)
Slashdot interlock (Score:5, Funny)
Example of what the Road to Hell is Paved with (Score:5, Insightful)
on it's razor thin surface surface this looks just good enough to attract legislators attention.
Until we see all the various problems that will occur later:
1) the device gets removed by a smart enough technician
2) people use ballons with "sober air" to defeat the system
3) All state drivers get charged for a device that presumes guilt (constitution, anyone?)
4) repeat offenders still kill
5) out of state rentals are used and someone gets injured/permanently disabled/killed from a drunk driver in one
6) insert your "I've just lost more rights" scenario here.
I've always felt that if you put enough monkeys into the statehouse they could end up making laws that may actually do some good (just like the joke that enough monkeys in front of a typewriter could make a work as good as shakepeare).
.
Part of the Problem (Score:5, Informative)
Then those people would drink and drive that 30-70 miles back to the reservation. Trust me, you did NOT want to be on those roads at night those days.
I'm not sure this plan will help that situation at all: generally, when one is drunk and weaving in and out of the lane, having the horn and headlines turn on and off probably isn't going to stop you at that point. And on the reservation, at least, you won't be seeing that many cops on the road.
Perhaps a lot has changed since I left (I know, for example, that drive through liquor stores are no longer allowed). But I do know that there is no quick fix for the problems of drunk driving in New Mexico.
Re:Part of the Problem (Score:4, Interesting)
I spent several years as a firefighter in the state, with a fire department that covered >25 miles of interstate. Lots of drunk drivers piled it in over that time on that stretch of road, but the problem was much worse once you got off the interstate. The drive-up liquor windows went away, yes- but I think the only effect that had was on my roommate at the time, who was bound to a wheelchair and found it much more convenient to pick up a couple of beers on the weekend via the drive-ups.
New Mexico has a long way to go in terms of bringing itself to the modern day. Enforcement is also a big issue; in the areas where the police AREN'T corrupt, they're usually so sparsely placed that they simply can't cover it. Catron County is something like 3x the size of Rhode Island, and has only two state police officers to cover the entire area at any given time. It's amazing.
brilliant idea for asthmatics (Score:5, Insightful)
Or I'm camping, and not near phones.
Oh, wait. Sorry. Can't blow enough air? That's ok, because the state is small and there aren't long stretches of desert or open roads.
Or not.
Then there is the issueof people with emphysema or other permanent breathing diseases/disorders? Guess they'll have to fork over money for exemptions, and paying for disabling the device.
Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, the first thing most people will do to avoid the inconvenience is disable the system. Therefore this law will inevitably be followed by yet more legislation to make disabling the system illegal, to make selling any device for disabling the system illegal, and probably, to even criminalize the mere dissemination of information on how to perform such modifications. Oh, and of course, an agency would have to supervise the installation of such devices, with 'authorized dealers','inspection stations', and certification, adding another layer of bureaucracy and expense to this ill-advised undertaking.
If you live in NM, please take the time to phone or fax your representative and voice your opinion. A law like this is the first step to a police state with presumptive-guilt laws.
You want me to do what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if it stalls at a light?
Even if I'm being chased by pirates?
Even at the gas pump?
You want me to take a breathalyzer test while underway?
You've seen the all-out exertion needed on an admissable, accurate police test - you mean like that, while underway?
I'm not supposed to be using a cell phone underway, but you want me to have to stop what I'm doing and use this?
And if I fail, I'm drunk, and I'll do something real brilliant and try and outdrive my own flashing lights and honking horn (y'all watch "COPS", right?)
And if I was going to fail, wasn't I already too close impaired to drive and take the test long before the test randomly popped up on the dash?
How does stuff like this get to "bill" status...
But does it WORK? (Score:5, Insightful)
Are these tests easy to fool? I can imagine keeping a can of compressed air handy. Can they be easily disabled? How often will the car start even if the driver is drunk? What about variability for body size?
More importantly: will having such a device actually prevent people from driving drunk? If a drunk person IS driving a car started by someone else, is it really a good idea to have the lights and horn start going off on him suddenly? How the hell do you take the breath test _while you're driving_ for heaven's sake?
To sum up: has a pilot project been done? What quantifiable success did it have?
The customer always pays (Score:5, Insightful)
Car sellers will not "pay" for this device, car buyers will. If it costs $200 to add the device, you can be sure that car prices with rise $200 in New Mexico. This is the same logic that has government paying for things, when it is really the taxpayer that pays. Businesses, like governments, pass their spending on to customers and taxpayers respectively.
The only exception is if a business faces competition that does not have to install this gizmo. So we can expect to see some booming car sales on the borders near New Mexico.
People really need to stop looking at businesses and government as big money machines. These organizations may have lots of money, but they got it from someplace else.
More save the children bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Drunk driving, while obviously a bad thing, is probaly the single most blown out of proportion issue in the United States.
If you actually get your hands on a study proclaiming that 70% (or whatever unrealistically high percentage) of crashes are "alcohol-related", look at the methodology. Crashes where the driver was perfectly fine, but a passenger had A DRINK were considered "alcohol-related"... as was a closed case of beer in the trunk.
Traffic statistics are among the most abused and oft cited. The folks who sell highway signs claim that 60% of accidents are caused by bad signage; police unions say that speedng causes up to 75% of crashes.
Re:More save the children bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine, total invasion of privacy, random searches, mandatory ID checks, and a large hit on our right to travel, all to counteract something that has killed about 3,000 people in the US in the past five or so years, and has killed exactly zero people in the US in the past two years.
Drunk driving comes in pretty badly, though, I must admit. As does child pornography, AIDS, and lots of other things. Come to think of it, every single issue that people have used as an excuse to eliminate our rights is completely overblown. What an incredible coincidence.
Dial tone interlock (Score:5, Funny)
It would certainly prevent those next day conversations when she calls you up wondering exactly what you were trying to say/sing on her answering machine.
A prime example of ... (Score:5, Interesting)
These rolling retests require the driver to take the test as the car is moving. If the driver fails a retest, the horn sounds and the lights flash until the car is turned off.
I mean ... I'm all for reducing drunk-driving, but they obviously haven't considered the full impact of this. Just a few human factors/reality issues:
And then the funny/unrealistic (but still possible ones)
This will kill people (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe when those damn idiot legislators see the death toll, they'll learn that it takes a human to make a judgement call.
education and tougher laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Very graphic adverts showing the results of drink driving have had a large impact.
Of course there is still the hard core of abusers who still instist on DD, but they 'tend' to be above 40 where they didn't have this hammered in from a early age.
It's become socially unacceptable to DD over here, although of course people still do..
Tough laws along with this have helped as well.
Using technology for the sake of it will only make a black market in getting around the device.
Increased policing on the issue had gone someway as the 'named driver' getting cheap/free soft drinks in some areas around various hi-days and holidays.
I think making it socially unacceptable is the key, this takes time and education, and of course the tax payer has to pay for this education.
My old man had one of these after a DWI in PA (Score:5, Interesting)
It cost around $2500 to install, and he had to keep it in the car for a year. You had to blow in a pattern, and the thing was fussy as hell. Like blow for 5 seconds, stop, blow for 2 seconds, stop, blow for 2 seconds and pray you did it close enough. Don't blow too hard, or too softly. It was easy to screw it up and have to redo it. It was right around then that I started to drive, so I got the old car and my mom started driving the car with the interlock on it. She had a hell of a time getting it to work under normal conditions. On more than one occasion she failed the 3 times and was stuck waiting 30 minutes for the lock to time out.
Maybe the technology on these has improved in the last 14 years, but I'd bet they're just as fussy as they ever were. Bad idea, too expensive, and why are we punishing 100% of the citizens for something .08% or less of them do? I'm all for whoever suggested the politicians all 'test' this idea for a year to see how it goes before enacting it as law.
MADD is mad (we need YRC: "your rights in a car") (Score:5, Insightful)
BTW, unlike MADD or a rambling lunatic, I'm going to back up every claim with a link.
MADD (and NHTSA) grossly overexaggerate [motorists.org] their claims [madd.org] of "drunk driving accidents," which are really alcohol-related accidents (a misleading statistic used by NHTSA [dot.gov]). Did you know that if you, while 100% sober, hit a drunk pedestrian, it counts as an alcohol-related accident? Or did you know that if you get in an accident and EVERYONE is sober (driver, pedestrian, passengers), you can still be counted as alcohol-related due to the statistical correction [dot.gov] that NHTSA uses, since only 63% of drivers [dot.gov] are tested for their BAC level!
MADD claims that 0.08 BAC reduction saves lives, yet a study by NHTSA found no proof of such reduction [dot.gov] after North Carolina enacted the lower BAC limit: "There appears to have been little clear effect of the lower BAC limit in North Carolina. Survey data indicate that the general public believes the new law was well-publicized. Although awareness of the new lower limit was not particularly high nearly 18 months after the law took effect, frequent drinkers did evidence a substantial degree of awareness that the law had changed and about what the new BAC limit was. As is typical in North Carolina, enforcement of the lower limit was vigorous and strict."
MADD wants to lower the BAC limit lower and lower, to 0.05. It claims victory over the 0.08 law over the previous 0.10 standard. However, it has been found [uiowa.edu] that "the relative risk [of being in a traffic accident while using a cell-phone] is similar to the hazard associated with driving with a blood alcohol level at the legal limit." The legal limit in that paper was 0.10 BAC. Another interesting note is that "These data also call into question driving regulations that prohibit handheld cell-phones and permit hands-free cell-phones, because no significant differences in the impairments caused by these two cellular devices were found.", but that's another topic of conversation.
Point is, why do they want to keep lowering the BAC when it has been shown that the vast majority [dot.gov] of drunk driving accidents occurs with drivers with over 0.10 BAC, and that below that, it's as risky as using a cell phone? Why is MADD targeting low-BAC-level drivers, such as 0.08 (and as they hope 0.05), with huge fines, property confiscation, loss of driver license, and obscene insurance surcharges? MADD wants to bully states [www.ridl.us] into the 0.08 BAC law by passing legislation that threatens their funding.
Furthermore, when NHTSA's accident data was loaded in a database and independent statistics [www.ridl.us] were ran on it, the massive exaggerations were exposed. Quote from the previous link: "Through the use of this tool we were able to discover that across the entire country NHTSA nearly doubles the number of instances of drunk drivers. And this is prior to them implementing their "Multiple Imputation" methodology w
This is the most idiotic idea ever: (Score:5, Insightful)
Deadly scenario 2: You're parked at a rest stop. A runaway truck comes careening into the parking lot, hurtling straight toward your car. You need to start your car and drive out of the way before he gets there. Too bad, it takes 30 seconds to start your car because you need to blow into a fucking tube. You get splattered all over the inside of your car.
Deadly scenario 3: A cranked up carjacker jumps into your passenger seat in the Costco parking lot and holds you at gunpoint. You take off down the road. Suddenly your car starts honking the horn and flashing its lights. His mind clouded by being awake for the past 72 hours, and panicking because of the lights and horn drawing attention, the carjacker blows your head off and takes off on foot.
I could list reasons why this is idiotic all day long.
Welcome to THE FUTURE!(TM) (Score:5, Insightful)
Ever had your car refuse to start because your breath was Listerine fresh?
Ever debated borrowing a friend's car because they had the flu/herpes/cold sores?
You will -- and the New Mexico legislature will bring it to you.
Poor Quality Devices to soon get everyone's atten (Score:5, Insightful)
The company that makes this device would be foolish to allow this legislation to pass without carving out some sort of loophole for themselves that will protect them against lawsuits. Having lived in Colorado for years, I know that the possibility that you get a car stuck and have to spend the night on the side of the road with the car running to provide heat is real. It happens every year to someone and happened to me about eight years ago. If this device shuts the car off while the stranded occupant is sleeping and allows that person to freeze to death there will be some serious liability to the company. It is one thing for the company to say that the occupant was obviously drunk; just look at their record of DUI's. It is quite another matter for them to make that claim against an elderly person who has never had a drink in their life; you have to blow HARD or the device fails. Can you say millions in liability?
What about the person that gets stranded in a bad part of town by a failed device only to be mugged. You can bet that at least one of these people will have the resources to persue the company in court. My point is that when a judge orders the device installed in a person's car as the result of a DUI the company can make some argument about the lessor of two evils. When it is installed in everybody's car and it harms that person that doesn't drink the company is going to get sued unless there is a legal protection clause (indemnification). If there is some indemnification clause then is it right to allow some company to escape legal recourse for the malfunction of their device when it causes a death or injury?
My final point is the cost. My brother had to pay $2000 to have the device installed in his $500 car. It isn't that unfair since he did drive drunk but should we charge everyone that much money for the mistakes of a few? I predict that these people from NM will start to buy and sell their cars in neighboring states and that car dealerships in NM will have their business seriously curtailed. They won't sell as many new cars; new cars will have their warrantis voided because these devices will have to be installed after market; and it is a serious invasion of privacy to have your own car keep track of when you use it and for how long. Will it also become law that to have your license renewed that you have to provide the data from the device to the Department of Motor Vehicles.
This law may pass but it will soon be repealed and some politicians will probably loose their jobs for undertaking such Stalinist tactics. The citizens of New Mexico will become politically active and want some lynchings at the capital.
Re:Drinking and driving? (Score:4, Insightful)
This is a problem that cant be solved so simply.
Re:Drinking and driving? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:This has been suggested in Sweden (Score:5, Insightful)
If everyone was forced to work and live in a large compound with padded floors, ceilings, and windows, and if everyone was kept seperate from everyone else by plexiglass walls, and if everyone's food was prepared by a dietician, and if everyone requiring transportation was given a padded, computer controlled wheelchair...
The point is that saving human lives is, in and of itself, NOT a valid excuse for treating me like a criminal.
Re:That's just dumb (Score:4, Insightful)
Car safety systems are optimized for the use of both seatbelts and airbags at the same time. Airbags don't just benefit the idiots who can't be bothered to put their seatbelts on; they make it safer for seatbelt wearers as well.
Moreover, the cost isn't just about your "consumer choice". If you or one of your passengers gets injured or killed in an accident, I pay more for insurance premiums or whatever other funding source is used to keep uninsured accident victims out of the gutter. You're propising to shift the cost of accident risk from your new car purchase to my taxes and insurance bills.