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Oracle Will Officially Appeal Its 'Fair Use' Loss Against Google (arstechnica.com) 99

Posted by BeauHD from the better-luck-next-time dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: The massive Oracle v. Google litigation has entered a new phase, as Oracle filed papers (PDF) yesterday saying it will appeal its loss on "fair use" grounds to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. For a brief recap of the case: after Oracle purchased Sun Microsystems and acquired the rights to Java, it sued Google in 2010, saying that Google infringed copyrights and patents related to Java. The case went to trial in 2012. Oracle initially lost but had part of its case revived on appeal. The sole issue in the second trial was whether Google infringed the APIs in Java, which the appeals court held are copyrighted. In May, a jury found in Google's favor after a second trial, stating that Google's use of the APIs was protected by "fair use." Oracle's appeal is no surprise, but it will be a long shot. The four-factor "fair use" test is a fairly subjective one, and Oracle lawyers will have to argue that the jury's unanimous finding must be overturned. There are various ways a jury could arrive at the conclusion that Google was protected by fair use. The case will go back to the Federal Circuit, the same appeals court that decided APIs could be copyrighted in the first place. That decision overruled U.S. District Judge William Alsup, the lower court judge, and was extremely controversial in the developer community. However, the same decision that insisted APIs can be copyrighted clearly held the door open to the idea that "fair use" might apply. Unless Oracle pulls off a stunning move on appeal, its massive legal expenditures in this case will be for naught.
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Oracle Will Officially Appeal Its 'Fair Use' Loss Against Google More

Oracle Will Officially Appeal Its 'Fair Use' Loss Against Google

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  • Oracle employees, show yourself (Score:3)

    by whoever57 ( 658626 ) on Thursday October 27, 2016 @07:52PM (#53164989) Journal

    There must be Oracle employees who actively post here at /..

    What do you think of this? What should the rest of us think of you and your employer?

    • I think you have to chant "Into the light I command thee".

    • Re: Oracle employees, show yourself (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      They all use Windows and don't visit /.
      Well, maybe some of the Solaris folks still stop by.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by MouseR ( 3264 )

        The standard Oracle desktop is Linux, except where appropriate.

        Still hate Oracle?

        • False. As an ex-employee of Oracle I can tell you that statement is categorically false. They do use Linux very heavily but employees can choose their own OS - most developers use macbooks and linux desktops, most non-tech staff use Windows.

    • Re:Oracle employees, show yourself (Score:5, Interesting)

      by MouseR ( 3264 ) on Thursday October 27, 2016 @08:16PM (#53165193) Homepage

      If you're willing to judge ~130,000 employees based on your perception of what's right or not, it wont mean much.

      Some of us are doing pretty cool stuff at Oracle and if you can navigate large corporations (there _Was_ a learning curve when we got acquired in 2001), it's actually a great place to work at. Most of us have families that live well because Oracle treats it's employees right, unlike some corporations where some friends of mine work.

      The employees, such as coders (as yours truly), dont get to decide what judicial courts decide, nor where Oracle points it's legal department. So unloading your frustration at it's employees wont accomplish much.

      • Can you tap the shoulder of somebody in the UX department and tell them to do a better job please? For all of our sakes. Virtually every oracle program I've ever used is extremely annoying to work with, and it has more to do with a crappy UI than anything else (well that and overall slowness with some applications.)

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Similar experience here, except that we got acquired a few years after you were.

        I don't know about your group, but in ours (MySQL), we are treated quite reasonably. Both individuals and teams are given a LOT of freedom to work as they see fit. As long as you produce a positive result, they don't really care, and I can personally attest that they do indeed reward productivity and good work.

        And I'm pretty sure that most if not all of us find the legal drama eminently cringeworthy, and hope that sense (and not

        • I recently was trying to work on a project for internal use at my company and we were using MySQL as the database for testing purposes. We started looking at the MySQL license and realized that we couldn't make heads or tails of it without getting legal involved. We then went to postgres because of licensing only. Might be cool if you passed on that the licensing for MySQL is getting too complicated and no one wants a legendary Oracle audit due to it.

      • Yes, Oracle does treat it's people well - I'll grant them that. I used to say of my time there: "They make you sell your soul, but at least they pay well for it".

    • Re:Oracle employees, show yourself (Score:4, Interesting)

      by silentcoder ( 1241496 ) on Friday October 28, 2016 @06:56AM (#53167385)

      I'm an ex-oracle employee. I resigned in protest over this lawsuit when it was first launched.

  • Will he now?

  • So long as there's an appeal process, such as higher cours, it would be dump for any company to not pursue it.

    Eg, look at Apple having, after a third round, finally reversed the appear court in the federal court, the Samsung lawsuit on their slide-to-unlock paten which they stole from their own client. How Effin nasty is that? Because of Samsung, Apple had to remove the slide-to-unlock from iOS 10 screwing with everyone (I hate unlocking my thumb id phone with the stupid click-through). Apple got the decisi

  • Since (only a subset of) the Java language is used to produce byte code for the ART, and not Java classes, there's no reason that Google can't just use only a subset of another language to the same effect - C++, Object Pascal, even a bastardized version of BASIC or Hypercard/Hypertalk and its descendants. Or something completely new ...

    • Of course, considering that Google only cribbed the API, and not the code implementing it, there's really only one main benefit they get from Java's API - one that nothing else delivers: Java developers.

      Yes, they could clone another language library, but few languages have the popularity of Java, and C++ doesn't have a standard library with anywhere near the scope of Java's, even if they could entice "close to the metal" developers to write code for their emulator instead.

      And for most languages I suspect th

      • They should just clone python. It's developer base is not *that* far behind java, it is a much nicer language to code in and because the original language is under the LGPL there is no risk of being sued for an alternative implementation (indeed several alternative implementations already exist - ironpython for example).

        • > it is a much nicer language to code in and because the original language is under the LGPL there is no risk of being sued for an alternative implementation (indeed several alternative implementations already exist - ironpython for example).

          That wouldn't matter if Oracle gets their filthy hands on python. Remember when Java was released on the GPL? That alone should have vindicated Google.

      • And at this point I start doubting Google's fair-use defense. I fully agree that APIs are copyrightable, but that writing compatible systems and applications requires use of the API, so it's a functional necessity, and copyright is not intended to stop any functional use. However, if Android Java and regular Java are not intended to be used compatibly, the functionality argument goes away.

        • "Android Java" was never designed to create Java applications, and to this day it doesn't. Think of it as a cross-compiler. And killing off the cumbersome Java API and the need for interfaces because Java lacks multiple inheritance would be a good thing.

  • The only fascinating thing about this story... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Narcocide ( 102829 ) on Thursday October 27, 2016 @08:07PM (#53165117) Homepage

    ... is that I saw this all coming the moment Google announced they would use Java for Android. It was clearly obvious to me (and I assume anyone else actually paying attention) that Oracle had "open sourced" Java (without really open sourcing it) specifically as a patent litigation trap for such big companies as Google. Of course, Google doesn't like being told what to do so they called Oracle's bluff.

    One or both of these companies is going to find out they've made a huge mistake. Either way, we all lose. Java always sucked, and, I feel, as evidenced by this, has primarily been used for evil rather than innovation.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Re 'is going to find out they've made a huge mistake."
      It could get even more epic. Open source is found to be incompatible with the US legal system.
      A rush to the exit by brands to their more friendly tax shelters to keep selling globally and revised products back into the USA.

      • Re:The only fascinating thing about this story... (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Immerman ( 2627577 ) on Thursday October 27, 2016 @10:28PM (#53165989)

        How would that work? Open source is firmly grounded in copyright law - how could granting an extremely permissive, non-revokable license with clear and specific reciprocity demands possibly be found to run afoul of US law, without simultaneously destroying all other copyright licensing arrangements as well?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AHuxley ( 892839 )
          Win win. US law protects open source with more protections or shatters all protections :)
      • "Open source is found to be incompatible with the US legal system."

        Please back that up.

        Inquiring minds want to know what kind of cool-aid you are drinking.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by AHuxley ( 892839 )
          Try the linked http://arstechnica.com/tech-po... [arstechnica.com]
          Will the copyrights and patents be valid or will fair use win? The wider court role of a "four-factor "fair use" test"?
          The way APIs could be/is/will be/can be copyrighted.
          The news and summary is all in the linked arstechnica.com recap.
          If its a win, its fair use for all.
          Not a win, then some "fair use" test for US code? Doing programming in the USA just got more interesting. Code has to work and pass a final court test every time per product cycle?
          Ano

          • Patents have always been a threat to F/OSS, since we started to have software patents.

            Copyright is not intended to restrict what you can do, and for most purposes APIs have to be used in order to do things. Java programs have to run on existing runtimes, and runtimes have to deal with Java programs. People use an API (which may or may not be copyrighted) to communicate, and should be allowed regardless of copyright. I believe that this is sufficient freedom to develop software with. If you see that c

          • I don't follow your line of reasoning, and most of your statements are all over the place. For instance, "The way APIs could be/is/will be/can be copyrighted." is not a valid sentence.

            This is an appeal by Oracle lawyers to justify their own paychecks. It certainly hasn't shown that Open Source is incompatible with the US legal system.

            Should you also say that because there are lawsuits related to health issues, "Medical care is found to be incompatible with the US legal system"? I'm sure I can find a

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      It was clearly obvious to me (and I assume anyone else actually paying attention) that Oracle had "open sourced" Java (without really open sourcing it) specifically as a patent litigation trap for such big companies as Google.

      You weren't paying THAT close attention-- it was Sun who open-sourced Java, not Oracle.

    • This is not a patent case. Its a copyright case.

      It was not Oracle who open sourced Java. It was Sun.

      Oracle later bought Sun. They did not really get any worth from it. So now they use the normal way for those that can't innovate - they sue those that make money and hope they get lucky.

      As for Java sucking - thats was mostly Microsofts doing; for having a version that was incompatible with the other versions.

  • We need a new award in the computing world (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Trailer Trash ( 60756 ) on Thursday October 27, 2016 @08:17PM (#53165197) Homepage

    Maybe we could call it "The Darl". Oracle is winning this year's Darl award.

    • Heh! DARL = Dubious Actions Regarding Legalities

      • And all this time I thought his [wikipedia.org] parents just didn't know how to spell when in reality they were just providing a prophetic acronym trying to warn the world of his coming threat.

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday October 27, 2016 @08:23PM (#53165255)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      They should merge and become Orangeacle, The Bigly Data Company.

      • They should merge and become Orangeacle, The Bigly Data Company.

        Damn! I'd mod you up as Funny, but I just finished spending my mod points.

    • Re:Seems... (Score:5, Funny)

      by srichard25 ( 221590 ) on Thursday October 27, 2016 @09:27PM (#53165615)

      ...then I guess Microsoft is the Hillary of the computer world.

      Well connected and the darling of corporations, but a backstabber behind the scenes. And neither knows how to correctly do email.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Lehk228 ( 705449 )
      ORACLE not Oracle.

      One
      Raging
      Asshole
      Called
      Larry
      Ellison
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

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