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Anime Media Television

Fansubbers Under Fire 972

Posted by CmdrTaco from the well-sorta-anyway dept.
CNet is running a story about new developments in the fansubbing world. The article provides some background, and then discusses Media Factory's recent letters to fansubbers demanding removal of their shows. Historically the studios have turned a blind eye towards the work of the fansubbers, and the assumption has always been they they secretly approve since the fans work is amazing market research. I've bought countless DVDs based entirely on the work of fansubbers, so I hope that this isn't the beginning of the end.
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Fansubbers Under Fire More

Fansubbers Under Fire

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  • What the hell is a fansubber? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:22AM (#11540230)
    For everyone else asking that question, they apparently translate foreign movies and make English subtitles.

    • Re:What the hell is a fansubber? (Score:5, Funny)

      by AnotherEscobar ( 852831 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:41AM (#11540445)
      Kind of a critical fact, thanks.

      The only reason I came to the article was to brush up on my vocabulary. I thought for sure my kid was going to make a reference to 'fansubber' one day soon and i'd appear to be more out of touch than I actually am.

      And here I immediately thought it was like a 'fluffer' or something.

      • Re:What the hell is a fansubber? (Score:5, Funny)

        by Tenebrious1 ( 530949 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @12:21PM (#11540955) Homepage
        The only reason I came to the article was to brush up on my vocabulary. I thought for sure my kid was going to make a reference to 'fansubber' one day soon and i'd appear to be more out of touch than I actually am.

        Yeah, it'll be useful for us parents when the FBI comes knocking on the door with a warrant for the seizure of computer equipment for illegal distribution of fansub materials... at least we'll have some idea what our kids are accused of...

      • Fansubbing explained (Score:4, Informative)

        by acidrain69 ( 632468 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @03:36PM (#11543358) Journal
        Fansubbers typically choose anime that is released in Japan, but has not been liscened for distribution in other countries yet.

        Fansubbing has been around for quite a while, and traditionally it was done using VHS equipment. My experience with the fansubbing community has vastly changed in the last few years due to changing video compression capabilities. VHS fansubbing usually was associated with poor quality, where you would be getting 2nd, 3rd, and even lower generation tapes. The first fansubbed anime I ever got on the internet was in the .VIV frmat (vivo). We will not further speak it's name here. Other formats have come and gone, most everything is done in divx or ogg/xvid format now. Quality is very high. I think this may have something to do with the crackdown.

        The legality was questionable to begin with. You have a huge industry in japan, with a negligable market in the US. They used to overlook it because they do not sell in the US. Things have changed, and now more and more anime is making it's way over here. So now you have a situation where it isn't illegal to copy the anime and sub it for the US, it will be if the anime ever gets liscensed for distro in the US. It becomes more and more of a problem the more mainstream anime gets.

        As always, wikipedia [wikipedia.org] beats me to it. More or less what I have said above.

    • Re:What the hell is a fansubber? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Kunnis ( 756642 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:52AM (#11540568)
      Fansubbers go through and put subtitles on anime captured from Japanese TV. Usually the group captures it off of TV, then someone will translate it, pass it off to someone else for checking, then the subtitles are timed, then encoded, and finally distributed via newgroups or bittorrent. Most groups try to do a whole series, and most series are usually 26+ episodes long. IMHO the translations are better then the commercial ones, and sometimes the only way you can get the uncut series. Most of these groups do these translations weekly, and often they have half the series translated and their release dates are only a few weeks after their showing on TV in Japan. The commercial translations are only available at least a year or two after it's been out in Japan. Inu Yasha, which is very popular on Cartoon Network, was on its 3rd or 4th season in Japan before they started showing it here in the US.

      • Re:What the hell is a fansubber? (Score:5, Informative)

        by Elledan ( 582730 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @12:27PM (#11541058) Homepage
        It can be argued, of course, that fansubs exists for a good reason, namely that those lucky enough to live in Japan can watch those shows on TV, without necessarily having to buy the DVD, whereas poor suckers like the rest of us are expected to wait for those series to be released in our respective countries.

        If TV broadcasts weren't limited to a single country (in most cases), and only a single language was spoken in the entire world, then those companies would have a point. At the moment it are (mostly) just fans wanting to see the anime series which are currently being broadcast without having to wait a year or (much) longer and pay _extra_ for the DVD (on top of the costs for cable TV).

        I can understand Japanese, I like anime, but I don't want to buy the DVD(s) of every single series I watch. I'm, however, prepared to pay a couple of euros extra per month for the priviledge to receive the major Japanese TV-channels on my TV here in Europe. Which includes the latest (anime) series.
        • The majority of these groups stop subbing as soon as someone buys the rights to distribute the anime in whatever countries the fansubbers work in (US, for example). Nowadays, with anime a much larger business than it used to be, series are being licensed for US and European distribution much faster. In the old days, it was typical for a show to run all 26 episodes, then be licensed a year or so after it had finished on Japanese TV. Now, companies can spot a hit quickly, often licensing shows while STILL

      • Re:What the hell is a fansubber? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Lord_Dweomer ( 648696 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @02:16PM (#11542427) Homepage
        In addition to all of this, it is important to note that fansubbers often produce better quality "subs" than the professionals. While the translations run the whole gamut of quality, I love how some groups go the extra mile and provide cultural footnotes that you can read, and translations of writing that appears on the screen. Many commercial products don't do that.

        In addition, I would just like to take this post to give a warning to the anime industry.

        Take a lesson from market behavior with the RIAA and MPAA. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, or not only will the fansubbers stop buying anime (I'm willing to bet fansubbers are also the anime company's most profitable customers) from you, but they'll just spend their effort on subbing licensed material to piss you off. As it is now, there's a pretty good agreement where we basically get to sub things that aren't licensed in the states, and they back off. They send notices out to the sites that do host licensed stuff, but that will be done no matter what, and there's no way to get rid of these people.

        As it stands right now, the VAST majority of the anime community respects the wishes of the anime companies, and we understand that we have a symbiotic relationship. They need our money to keep producing anime, we need their anime to get our fix. Very dumb move on behalf of this company to change that "agreement" just in search of higher profits. Write fansubbing off as a marketing expense and collaborate with some of the better groups instead, like Anbu or AONE or Seichi. Work with their translators, and get market insight from the fansubbers who have WAY more experience dealing with the desires of fans than the actual anime companies do.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • biting the hand that feeds them. (Score:5, Funny)

    by TomRitchford ( 177931 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:23AM (#11540233) Homepage
    have they learned nothing from the collapse of the record industry?

  • "Fansubbing" FTA (Score:4, Informative)

    by grub ( 11606 ) <slashdot@grub.net> on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:23AM (#11540234) Homepage Journal

    From the article (assuming you're like me in wondering what "fansubbing" is):
    "[fansubbers] take Japanese cartoons, translate and subtitle them in English, and release them freely on the Net."

    • Typical fansub anime movie (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Young Girl: Oh no! A man with mirrored sun glasses!
      Evil Man: Ha ha ha ha ha!
      Young Girl: What are you doing? What's in that suitcase?
      Evil Man: Ha ha ha ha ha! I have my Rapectopus in this suitcase!
      Young Girl: NOOOOOOOOO!
      Evil Man: Ha ha ha ha ha! Now I will release my tentacled monster! He will delve freely into your nether-regions! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

    • A good example (Score:5, Funny)

      by paranode ( 671698 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:37AM (#11540404)
      For those who may not be familiar with such translations:

      In A.D. 2101
      War was beginning.
      Captain: What happen ?
      Mechanic: Somebody set up us the bomb
      Operator: We get signal
      Captain: What !
      Operator: Main screen turn on
      Captain: It's You !!
      Cats: How are you gentlemen !!
      Cats: All your base are belong to us
      Cats: You are on the way to destruction
      Captain: What you say !!
      Cats: You have no chance to survive make your time
      Cats: HA HA HA HA ....
      Captain: Take off every 'zig'
      Captain: You know what you doing
      Captain: Move 'zig'
      Captain: For great justice
  • It's illegal, it's wrong, and it's certainly not good for you. If you're rich because of what's being shared.

  • You sound like a thief yourself (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:24AM (#11540246)
    If you want Japanese cartoons before they're released in English, learn Japanese. It's fun and easy if you're not an idiot, and you can do it while you're at work if you have headphones and a cd-rom drive.

    Why are you encouraging people to steal their employer's time and resources for a personal, non-work hobby?

  • Turning a blind eye? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Mononoke ( 88668 )
    Historically the studios have turned a blind eye towards the work of the fansubbers, and the assumption has always been they they secretly approve since the fans work is amazing market research.
    No, historically, honest fansubbers have discontinued work and pulled masters on series that have been commercially released in the language the fansubbers were subbing to.

    Whether it's theft of service, or theft of property, it's still theft.

    • Whether it's theft of service, or theft of property, it's still theft.

      Here we go again... no you cannot "steal" information because information does not have the required physical attributes to be "stolen". Anime is not "service" either because service requires a physical action to be performed for you by someone. And by using the word "theft" in this context you merely showed yourself to be a propagandist for people who believe one can "own thoughts and ideas".

      In other words you have no clue what you are

    • Re:Turning a blind eye? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ZeroConcept ( 196261 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:48AM (#11540506)
      "Whether it's theft of service, or theft of property, it's still theft."

      It's called copyright infringement.

  • Grrrr... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Faust7 ( 314817 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:27AM (#11540287) Homepage
    ...for two reasons.

    (1) "Anxious times in the cartoon underground." Nothing like the term "cartoon" to once again give people inaccurate impressions of the entire anime world. I expect better from CNET.

    (2) I will not buy DVDs blind, nor will I watch anime dubbed. I require at least a sampling before I plunk $ down on discs. Fansubs meet this requirement and have determined every single one of my anime purchases, with the exceptions of those series that came out before fansubbing really existed.

    • Sorry to rain crap on your parade... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Gruneun ( 261463 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:59AM (#11540645)
      No matter how much additional style or substance is added to it, anime still qualifies as an animated cartoon. Apparently, CNET is aware that they are speaking to a general audience that is not as refined in their... well, cartoon-watching.

      • Semantics... (Score:3, Informative)

        by HopeOS ( 74340 )
        The dictionary [dictionary.com] says you're wrong...

        cartoon Pronunciation Key (kär-tn) n.

        ....1.
        ........1. A drawing depicting a humorous situation, often accompanied by a caption.
        ........2. A drawing representing current public figures or issues symbolically and often satirically: a political cartoon.
        ....2. A preliminary sketch similar in size to the work, such as a fresco, that is to be copied from it.
        ....3. An animated cartoon.
        ....4. A comic strip.
        ....5. A ridiculously oversimplified or stereotypical re

    • At the very core, what the fansubbers are doing amounts to charitable work for a for-profit organization. At some point that company is going to step in and assert their ownership over their works, lest they fall into the public domain.

      Look at the logical cocnclusion of fansubbing:

      - Japanese company creates anime feature
      - Fans subtitle it and redistribute it on the internet
      - A large fanbase for the company's works grows outside of Japan
      - Company responds to consumer demand by releasing officially dubbed v

  • Poor Translations (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Vordak ( 855348 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:28AM (#11540290)
    Well, if companies like Funimation would actually translate the real words instead of making most of them childish, then people might wait until the anime is released to the US because the translations are correct. It is amazing to compare the translations these big corporations do, compared to the real script.
    • The funny thing is, I personally prefer fansub over officially licensed subtitles in many cases because the fansubbed works are better. The fansubbers (those who don't skimp on quality) are better because:

      1. They provide subtitles that are more "fun" (they can get more creative because their jobs don't depend on it being professionally done). This applies very often to the swearing in the dialogue.

      2. They are more thorough. For example, many fansubs go through the extra length of providing extra notes
  • I've bought countless DVDs based entirely on the work of fansubbers

    Isn't this a really bad idea, considering this is a major news outlet and your day job? Could OSDN be considered to be condoning piracy?

  • There's no sympathy in corporateville... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by It doesn't come easy ( 695416 ) * on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:29AM (#11540310) Journal
    The ultimate goal of large content providers is to create a world where they take you money each and every time you view their content. NO EXCEPTIONS!

    No doubt some people go too far in their fansubbing, but on the other hand it is very rare indeed that a corporation will be or even can be reasonable (think of how their stockholders would react to a corporation allowing unauthorized copying of their content). That is why the law must provide the balance. If you think that there ought to be a reasonableness to this kind of thing the I recommend that you make your feelings known. Support the Electronic Frontier Foundation [eff.org].

    One thing I know for sure, if we do nothing then eventually we will live in a world where you have to pay every time you read your kid a bedtime story.

  • From the TFA: "It is technically illegal. When we announce a title, if there is a site that is distributing fansubs, then we contract them and ask them to remove it". Have you ever seen the notes on your anime "Please delete this stuff when it is officially released in your area. [Or something similar to it]" That's basically about it. And nothing is wrong with it. If everything is done in the proper (friendly) manner, what's the problem? Let's not blow the fire, guys ^_^

  • Suggestion for fansubbers (Score:4, Insightful)

    by scifience ( 674659 ) * <webmaster@scifience.net> on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:31AM (#11540330) Homepage

    I can understand both sides of this issue. But assuming that the trend of the distributors cracking down on fansubbers continues, why not have the fansubbers just release their subtitles with no video?

    This would allow the die-hard fans to either purchase a legitimate non-English DVD and apply the subtitles themselves (there is lots of software to do this available). This would, in theory, remove the legal burden from the fansubbers since they would no longer be distributing the actual video.

    Everyone wins in this case: the anime fans would get to watch the series earlier than they would if they waited for a true English release, the fansubbers continue doing what they do, and the studio/distributor still gets their money from the sale of the DVD.

    I know that many anime fans often prefer the fansub to a commercial subtitling because the fansubbers often include translations of on-screen items, not just dialog, so you can figure out if those kanji in the window are significant to the plot of if they are just decoration.

  • I wish some Hollywood studio would finally exercise their IP muscle to stop these endless new verses of "Kumbayaa". Seriously, though, when do old songs/characters/stories become the folk "tradition" from which Hollywood mines its most popular and lucrative properties, prevalidated in their market?
  • I know I have bought many DVDs because I got the fansubs, and they were good.

    I'd be rather apprehencive about buying a $70 set of some show I would have never heard of if it weren't for fansubs.

    Besides, once the series' get liscensed, the torrent is removed and the file is taken off the tracker listing.

    And most people go buy the DVD.

    Like the OP said, fansubbing makes for incredible market research.

  • Why all the bashing? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Baorc ( 794142 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:32AM (#11540346)
    I don't get it, why are you all bashing the fansubbers? It's like taping an tv episode for a friend in a forein country and translating it for them. I don't think language should be a barrier to determine what is piracy and what isn't. I mean, anyone can watch tv for free and tape it, hell record it if you like on an HD. So I don't see how it's wrong in any way, unless of course it's licensed in the country you live in, which in this case is most likely the states.

    So again, how is this different from doing it with US shows and giving it to a friend in Europe who doesn't want to wait forever to receive it on their network, and while you are at it, translate it for them?

  • NOT fansubbing unreleased material (Score:4, Informative)

    by Chris_Jefferson ( 581445 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:33AM (#11540360) Homepage
    My opinion as a very minor fansubber (and this is held by various large fansubbing sites I'm not going to link from slashdot) is that it is fine to fansub until some American company announces they have aquired the licence to an anime, at which point you stop.

    These people appear to be continuing to distribute and subtitle anime after this has happened. In some cases it looks like they are continuing to distribute a fansub after an anime is released.

    Personally I think just as bad as downloading an actual pirated copy of an anime. Of course I do do that. But I know it's pirating and don't try to pretend it's anything else.

    These companies don't appear to be going after fansubbers who are fansubbing things which haven't had, and probably won't get, an American release.

  • The border between illegal and immoral. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Demon-Xanth ( 100910 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:34AM (#11540374)
    Most fansubbing groups operate on morality vs. legality.

    They will sub, and release, a series until there is a company that picks it up and says "we are going to do this". And then they drop it. At which point, most drop all sources for all episodes both future and already released. This is why studios don't have a problem with most groups. It doesn't dilute the market enough to bother with.

    I don't consider this practice immoral. However, given the current state of copyright laws, it is illegal. Doing fansubs, or DLing them is an at-risk practice for all parties involved.

    Much like driving 5MPH over the speed limit, or doing a rolling stop at a stop sign. Illegal and immoral do not always coincide.

  • Vote with your Dollar (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BarryNorton ( 778694 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:36AM (#11540400)
    If you're an honest user of these communities' work, react by not buying the licenses of those series where the studios don't let you see fansubs as preview.

    If fansubbers' argument that they actually promote purchase of the English-language license is true then the Japanese studios will soon back off when their offerings are less competitive because American licensees' profits are lower.

  • Faults On All Sides (Score:4, Interesting)

    by EXTomar ( 78739 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:36AM (#11540402)
    Media Factory should have been less blunt since as mentioned the "dirty little secret" about digisubs is that companies actively use this as a marketing tool to know what is hot and what is not. They get a lot more feedback through watching fan activity than they ever did in those "reader response cards" and web site mechanisms. Even so, I can't blame Media Factory for wanting to protect their investments. They took the time and money to create shows to market in the Japan and the US and are irked to see their work handed out freely. Although they could have handled in a more friendly fashion the fact is that they asked these groups to stop and it is in their right to do so. They should have handled it with a gentle handle instead of the blunt instrument of psuedo-legal issuing of offical letters.

    The fansubing groups need to get off their high horse and honor the request. In the past, "fansub ethics" have always said "honor the request of the creators" reguardless of reason. As much as these guys think they are "promoting the show by sharing" they continue to ignore the reason they are asked to stop which is that there is a seedy element in fandom that just wants cheap shows to watch.

    Both sides should just acknowledg each other and walk away from this situation cleanly instead of fuming and dwelling on it. The system works best when it runs silent not when red flags and warning bells go off.

  • The fansubbers dropped Media Factory's series (Score:3)

    by dethl ( 626353 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:38AM (#11540418)
    as soon as that letter went out. Animesuki [animesuki.com] stopped even stopped showing torrents. I hope Media Factory understands that by cutting off the fansubbers, they'll have an unknown success if they attempt to licence their current series to the US. The fansubbers are one of the best ways to gague how a new series will do here and in the rest of the world.

  • An interesting problem (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dark Paladin ( 116525 ) * <jhummel.johnhummel@net> on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:39AM (#11540433) Homepage
    Myself, I've used fansubbers in the past.

    My daughter (age 6) had what I call a "Disney princess image" issue. Thanks to the Disney cartoons, she let me know one day that "Princesses don't fight - they just wait for the prince to rescue them".

    I didn't like that idea.

    So I found other things for her to watch, like "Magic Knight Rayearth" (cute little girls fight with swords against monsters), "Kiki's Delivery Service", "Angelic Layer" (cute little girls with robot dolls that fight each other into submission), and so on.

    One of those is a (formerly) fansubbed series called "Stellvia of the Universe", which features a girl attending school in a space station, dealing with the ins and outs of school life. Shima (the main character) is a geek girl, and my daughter and I got a kick out of her (mis) adventures.

    The only problem was that Daddy had to be there since she's not a fast enough reader (hey, she's only six ;) ) to read all the subtitles. Which was OK, but now that the series is coming out on DVD in the US with dubbing I don't have to be there every minute. So I'll start buying the whole series as it comes out so she can watch it without me.

    But we've started on other fansub works, like the "Ah! My Goddess!" series now running in Japan. We sit together, I read the subtitles and do the voices for her, and she's started picking up a little Japanese. When the series reaches the US I'll still buy them.

    At the same time, I respect the animation studios who might not want their work fansubbed. In those cases, I'd recommend the fansubbers could create external subtitle files (I believe these are idx files that work with VLC or MPlayer), and people could be encouraged to rip their own DVD's to AVI files with special instructions, like "Use Handbrake at X rate blah, blah, blah".

    This way, animation studios could still sell DVD's, funsubbers and fans like myself could still get "previews" of a sort. It would be better if the studios would work with the fansubbers and sell the movies online for cheap (say, $3 an episode in a nice XVID format or some such, $1 to the fansubbers and $2 to the production company), since thanks to them I'm going to wind up spending about $150 in DVD's that I would not have otherwise.

    Guess we'll wait and see what happens. I'm sure there are people out there who only watch the fansubs and never buy the DVD, but as the article mentions, there may be a few if the "middle area" (the ones people watch on fansubs but have no intention of buying ) animes that lose sales as a result. (Which is why I think the "buy fansubbed for $3" would be a better result for everyone involved.

  • TV Series (Score:3, Funny)

    by Cyn ( 50070 ) <cyn.cyn@org> on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:40AM (#11540438) Homepage
    So - I watch a few fansubbed anime tv series. Most notably - every Wednesday night (or so) "Naruto" is fansubbed and torrented. It had aired hours before in Japan, on broadcast television. A group of fansubbers was kind enough to translate the spoken Japanese to a pretty good English equivalent - and encode it up in a convenient movie format.

    This content is not, and perhaps will not, ever be available to me otherwise. Yes - I've a general interest in learning Japanese. No - it won't be enough anytime soon (if ever) to be able to enjoy these shows without translations.

    When series are licensed by companies, the fansubbers (generally) shut down [or at least have the decency to go 'underground' - where I don't care to follow] - this is pretty much how I know something has been licensed, and I suck it up and deal.

    So, legally - morally - etc. What are peoples opinions? Am I a bad evil man?

    I don't think so. Dattebayo!

  • Complaint text (Score:5, Informative)

    by flatface ( 611167 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:43AM (#11540463)
    I dumped this from a PDF file Lunar Anime received. Most of those in the fansubbing community know that we respect US licenses, so we're also respecting MFI's request. Please note that Lunar is only doing KgNE from that list.

    --

    Name of sender:
    FUKUI Kensaku
    fukui@kottolaw.com
    Admitted in Japan and New York

    TELEPHONE:(813)5766-8980
    FACSIMILE: (813)5466-1107

    KOTTO DORI LAW OFFICE
    MINAMI AOYAMA POINT 1ST FLR.
    18-5, MINAMI AOYAMA 5-CHOME
    MINATO-KU, TOKYO 107-0062 JAPAN

    December 7, 2004

    LUNARANIME.ORG
    [removed address]

    Re: Copyright Infringement on Web Site

    Dear Madame/Sir,

    I am a legal counsel of Media Factory, Inc. and writing this letter in that capacity.

    Media Factory, Inc. ("MFI") is one of Japanese major animation film producers and owns or jointly owns with other companies copyrights and trademarks regarding various Japanese anime films including the following works ("Works"):

    Gankutsuou
    Rahxephon
    Genshiken
    Kimi ga nozomu Eien

    Recently, MFI found that certain unauthorized copies of the Works are uploaded to the following web site(s) considered to be managed by you ("your web site") and/or that users are induced on or through your web site to certain web sites containing such unauthorized copies. Such unauthorized copies may be downloaded by users in many countries including Japan from such web sites without charge. We believe that a large number of unauthorized copies have already been flowed out through such web sites.

    www.lunaranime.org

    Needless to say, unauthorized copying and upload and distribution of such copies are serious copyright infringement. Absolutely no money goes to creators and anime producers of the Works from such illegal distribution.

    I hereby request you to cease and terminate said upload and/or inducement immediately and erase all the copies of the Works under your possession. Please confirm the termination and erasure in writing to my contact address set forth as above within ten (10) business days of your receipt of this letter either by mail or facsimile.

    In case we cannot confirm said termination and erasure within such period, we will need to consider commencing necessary legal action.

    This letter is sent without prejudice to any of MFI's rights or remedies. Sincerely,

    FUKUI Kensaku Attorney at law

  • Fansubs are accessible from Japan (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Kagami001 ( 769862 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @11:58AM (#11540627)
    It bears mentioning that when you put these video files up on the net, they are just as accessible to people in the domestic Japanese market as anywhere else. I would tend to imagine that is of some concern, especially in the case of those late-night niche series that make all their money off video and merchandise sales, rather than advertising, like Kimi ga Nozomu Eien. They would need to approach foreign sites distributing video files just as much as they would approach Japanese ones.
    • I can definitely vouch for the fact that English fansubs circulate among Japanese users, I've downloaded some with Japanese filenames from Japanese P2P users. I would imagine that the big central fansub torrent sites are more convenient to get stuff from than messing with WinMX/Winny, especially if the subbing group uses OGM or something similar so the subs can be turned off.

  • Flooded market? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by phorm ( 591458 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @12:15PM (#11540871) Journal
    I wonder if this has anything to do with the market being a little more "flooded" than usual. In that case it would compare well to the MPAA...


    Fansubbers release subtitled versions of anime online. Fans download. More downloads/activity = more popularity. Anime companies use popularity to determine US sales.

    Now, anime has caught on more in the USA. Anime factories want to release more anime, faster, and with less regard to quality. What previously sold well due to predetermined popularity will now sell by volume. But those that don't want to watch crap can download the fansubs and determine that it is, in fact, crap and not worth buying.

    It's like theatre movies and shelved music. The good (or at least, popular) stuff is selling more than ever, but people are better prepared against the crud. Industry wants to sell both, so they fight against the evils of "piracy"

  • Hard work (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Otik2 ( 317009 ) <joel486 AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @12:29PM (#11541082) Homepage
    The most telling thing to me is that fansubbers sub series because they enjoy them, not because they want to try to earn money off them. It seems like most commercial releases just do elaborate dubs and stick on a few trailers for other series. But as the article mentions, they don't put the effort into it that fansubbers do. There's no painstakingly yet beautifully done karaoke, no pretty and easy-to-read color-changing fonts, no translations for all the onscreen signs or Japanse jokes. And most commercial releases have a fair number of grammatical errors in their subtitles, which personally annoys me. I understand that things like these probably don't both most of their audience, which is why they don't do them, but it would be nice to see a US studio put as much effort into their releases as fansubbers do. If you really love a series, it shows.
  • Dear Japanese Anime companies:

    I've been watching anime since about 10 years ago. Before the internet era, all we could do was renting some limited anime at very specialized stores. It's very scarse. We would meet and gather money to rent (or even buy) one.

    However, with the internet, we've been able to know the most recent japanese releases. Of shows that would take 3 or even more years to be officially released in the US.

    Please allow me to ask this question: What use is making a perfectly legal show if nobody outside your country is going to see it? Where will you get the reviews, if people won't understand a thing of what's being said? Who will buy your series? But most important, did you plan to earn money thru exportation of the series you're producing?

    Maybe you don't want to accept it, but in a certain sense, you owe us. Both the fans and the fansubbers. We're otakus, too. We respect you and appreciate your wonderful work. But please, don't take away from us this thing that we love so much... if you do, the direct consequence is that we'll have to stop watching anime (not because we don't want it, but because we won't be able to see it at all) and stay with the mainstream imports that are no good.

    Anime is not widely distributed in other countries apart from the US - like in Latin America. You can see there only the most popular shows like Pokèmon, or Yu Gi Oh. These shows are garbage to the true Otakus. We want the good shows, like Evangelion, Saber Marionette, Cowboy Bebop, Detective Academy... most of us wouldn't have even heard of them if it wasn't for the fansubs.

    There is another thing to consider. The "popular" shows that go on open TV usually have more than 100 episodes, and are transmitted daily. But the small shows that have an average of 25 episodes, have very little chance of appearing in open TV. What to say of OVA's? 8, 6, even 3 chapters?

    In Mexico the common idea of Anime is a lot of guys fighting with superpowers. That's their idea because that's what they've seen of Anime. Here there are many people with very limited resources. We barely have money for cable TV, much less for satellite TV where the specialized anime channels are.

    Please. Don't kill the worldwide Anime community.

    Sincerely,
    your fans.

  • Bootlegs, not fansubs, are hurting the companies. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Belisarivs ( 526071 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @12:39PM (#11541198)
    Haven't these companies noticed the massive amount of bootlegs/imports coming in from Hong Kong? I can pay $120 - $200 for a series from the legitimate publisher, or $30 for an import/bootleg that is nearly the same quality, but on fewer discs. It's not like sites that sell this stuff are hard to locate either, led alone the amounts you find on eBay.

    I think piracy is cutting into the market a heck of a lot more than fansubs. I'm amazed that so many of the sites continue to operate, seemingly within the US as well.

  • What about the UK (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Turn-X Alphonse ( 789240 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @12:39PM (#11541199) Journal
    I'm in the UK and a well known Gundam fanboy (my name is based on Gundam and FMA). Bandai have totally given upon Gundam in Europe and now you can get very little but import manga from Amazon and DVDs which wont play on all DVD players (region crap). So I have to fansub the series, but I do go out of my way to buy all the Gundam models and mangas I want, or even don't want in some cases. Bandai and Sunrise earn more money through Gunpla (Gundam models) then they do through DVD sales. So clearly I'm putting my money back into the series through "alternative" ways. Many people work the same way as I do.

  • Distributing subtitles (Score:3, Interesting)

    by kRutOn ( 28796 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @12:40PM (#11541215) Homepage

    It appears that the controversy here is over copyright infringement when the "fansubbing group" releases an entire video with their translated subtitles attached to them. While I agree this is copyright infringement, I would also like to point out that, according to the Berne Convention Article 8, translating copyrighted works is the exclusive right of the copyright holder.

    8.0 Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works.

    I would love to hear of any legal precedent that says that this doesn't apply in the case of translating Japanese audio to English text.

  • The fansubbing process (Score:5, Informative)

    by darkgray ( 657520 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @12:41PM (#11541229) Homepage
    I used to be a fansubber, before I went back to the university in order to learn Japanese properly. At the time I wrote a guide for curious people, describing the process our group went through for subtitling an episode.

    URL is http://www.lolikon.org/guide.html [lolikon.org]

    I'd also like to point out that fansubs are likely to spread the Japanese culture a lot more than any dubbed-and-slashed US versions released. Granted, this may not be an amazing thing for American companies looking for quick profits on a new frontier, but I believe Japan as a nation will benefit in the end.

  • Is it only for anime? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by arhar ( 773548 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @12:53PM (#11541378)
    So is this 'fansubbing' thing only for Anime? Are there fansubbings of regular movies? Because if there aren't, it would be a great idea. Hmmm... there's a lot of great Russian movies that I would love my American friends to see. *lightbulb*

  • It's for this reason... (Score:3, Informative)

    by NewOrleansNed ( 836441 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @01:02PM (#11541487)
    ... that quite a few fansub groups no longer have a website or an IRC channel. They simply sub the files and distribute them to a few trusted individuals.

    Once they're distributed, they're virtually impossible to eliminate because they're sent over bittorrent, usenet, p2p networks, and online storage services like Streamload. There are still tons of copies of Ranma 1/2 encoded in old Realplayer files floating around.

    I would imagine that in the long run, the companies' crackdown on these groups is going to make the groups change their stances from simply subbing until US licensing to subbing until completion regardless of the licensing. The companies might be right in their defenses of their abilities to distribute their products, but Americans don't have the ability to watch a show to completion and then decide they want to purchase the DVD like the Japanese do (OVAs not withstanding).
  • ANBU is an anime fansubbing group I hold in high regard for the quality of their work. This is what they have to say about the legality of fansubs...

    What are the legalities behind fansubbing?

    This section pertains to information regarding licensed works and their legality. ANBU is a fan subtitling group, not endorsed or affiliated to any company or author. As a result, ANBU is subject to various laws and restrictions imposed by several International and U.S. Codes. Furthermore, ANBU respects the wishes and license of American companies. This is why ANBU has a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to licensed materials. All such materials must cease distribution as soon as the license has been made official and public. Fansubs in themselves are illegal, testing our luck when a work has been licensed in our country is asking for trouble.

    Many emails come to us saying that, "I am not in the United States, so send us the fansubs." This is not possible. As several members of our fansub group reside in the United States, as well as our web server - we are subject to the laws of the country we reside in. Furthermore, as our website is hosted in the United States, it can be seen as facilitating and encouraging such distribution, and we would be held fully responsible.

    If you enjoy our fansubs, and would like to continue to see us produce more, you would not ask us to participate in any endeavor that would endanger any of our staff and cause any litigation to occur as a result of our free service to the community.

    In a more detailed note, we will outline several of the laws regarding this topic for your perusal.

    17 USC Title 17 (U.S. Copyright Code)

    17.1.106 (paraphrased): The owner of a copyright has the exclusive right to do and authorize the following:

    1) Reproduce the work in copies

    2) Prepare derivative works

    "...the fair use of a copyrighted work, (...) for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."

    This means that only the owner/creator has the right to reproduce (copy or distribute) any of their works. It also includes 'derivative' works which means, anything made from the original is also covered under this. Essentially this means that Fansubs, which are a derivative of the original work, cannot be distributed without the exclusive consent of the copyright owner. Derivative works can also include screenshots, movie clips, and music videos using the works.

    Many people try to state that fansubbing is included under 'fair use', however it is very specific as to what constitutes 'fair use' and translations are not.

    Berne Convention Article 2 - Literary and Artistic Works Covered

    2.1 The expression "literary and artistic works" shall include every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression, such as books, pamphlets and other writings; lectures, addresses, sermons and other works of the same nature; dramatic or dramatico-musical works; choreographic works and entertainments in dumb show; musical compositions with or without words; cinematographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to cinematography; works of drawing, painting, architecture, sculpture, engraving and lithography; photographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to photography; works of applied art; illustrations, maps, plans, sketches and three-dimensional works relative to geography, topography, architecture or science.

    2.6 The works mentioned in this article shall enjoy protection in all countries of the Union. This protection shall operate for the benefit of the author and his successors in title.

    This essentially states that the work of an author in any nation who signed the convention, is protected in every nation under the convention. See below for an ent

  • View from an ex-fansubber (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ErMaC ( 131019 ) <ermac.ermacstudios@org> on Tuesday February 01, 2005 @02:53PM (#11542858) Homepage
    I realized I'm joining the discussion a whole 3 hours late which means no one will probably read this comment, but what the hell...

    First, a little history:
    I used to fansub shows starting about five years ago, but my roots in online fansubbing go back even farther, to 1997. I was one of the three groups (although I guess I was really only one person) who pioneered online distribution of fansubs in the first place, back when RealPlayer G2 had just come out and Cable modems and DSL were just first available. I used to take VHS fansub tapes, encode them to RM, and make them available on my website. If you run across old Sailor Moon RM files, or Macross 7, or later on any of the Fumei Anime encodes, that was me.

    Then DivX and broadband changed everything, and the whole online scene exploded. Now, you had people in Japan ripping raws from TV in high quality (beginning with Noir and Vandread, they were the real breakout series for Digital Fansubbing, or digisubbing) and groups translating and reencoding these raws, you no longer had to wait for an old-school tape fansubber to translate it and distro tapes. It was revolutionary.

    But about that time I started to see where things were headed, and I got out of fansubbing more than two years ago because I came to realize that the modern fansubbing scene is nothing more than the next warez scene. Everything turned into speed, speed, speed, and became less about quality and the love of anime and more about online prick-waving contests about which group was cooler and got their releases out faster. I grew out of that crap when I was 16, thanks.

    Today's market no longer needs fansubbing. Fansubbing was important back when shows might never get brought over to the US, or releases might not occur for another 4 years (like ADV and Excel Saga, for instance), but today the domestic anime companies get their product out in reasonable timeframes (it's no 1 week wait time, but that's for obvious reasons), produce good product (if they don't they hear about it forever, ask ADV about Eva Vol 1 sometime), and do a bang-up job of trying to get the whole phenomenon out to new people.

    Anything good that gets aired on Japanese TV will be licensed in the US, period. Everything that's being produced in Japan now is licensed before it airs, so this crap about US companies looking to fansubbers for direction is bunk. All fansubbing is these days is whole-sale piracy on the one hand and another silly adolescent online rat race on the other. When you have "release" groups, distro groups (read torrent sites), and all of these things have three letter abbreviations, you know it's just the new warez scene.

    That's why I got out. The last show I enjoyed subbing was Kokoro Toshokan, because I knew it would never get brought here (indeed, it still hasn't after three years). That was what fansubbing was about. Today's scene is a terrible perversion of the ideals of fansubbers of old.

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