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GNOME GUI Software

GNOME for Grandma 443

Posted by CmdrTaco from the get-your-gui-on dept.
An anonymous reader writes "PCWorld colmnist Matthew Newton has written an interesting two part article titled "In Search of Linux for Grandma", in which he shares his thoughts on introducing computers to a 75 year old PC neophyte (through Linux). He discusses the new spatial Nautilus that he is planning to unleash upon grandma, and quote from the article - "Grandma is never going to learn about "opening a file manager" to "navigate her way" to her documents. They are all going to live in plain view in folders on her desktop. And when she opens them, there won't be any surprises."."
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GNOME for Grandma More

GNOME for Grandma

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  • That's easy... a garden gnome.

    Next

    • Offended (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:32PM (#8872564)
      As a 48 yo grandmother, I am offended that people equate being a grandmother with having a low level of technical competance.

      • Re:Offended: Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by MrZaius ( 321037 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @03:32PM (#8873427) Homepage
        With all due respect, you're 48. You may be a grandmother, but there's no way (I sincerly hope) that your grandchild(ren) are old enough to build you a computer and be this bent on forcing Linux on you. Those that do have granchildren of that age aren't likely to have nearly the level of technical expertise that people from your age group. My pop's older than you, and uses PGP, open GPG, and absurdly complicated VB scripting regularly, but his mother would be greatly helped by this kind of GUI.

        I thought the article to be very insightful/interesting, as it would greatly simplify my grandmother's life.

      • Re:Offended (Score:3, Insightful)

        by strictnein ( 318940 )
        As a 48 yo grandmother, I am offended that people equate being a grandmother with having a low level of technical competance.

        Well, you don't have enough "technical competance" to reply to the right post on slashdot. So, I think you proved the posters point. Good job.

        Anyways, I'd be willing to be all of my net worth that over 95% of grandmothers have a very low level of technical competance. You are the exception (and also a fairly young grandmother).

      • I would disagree (Score:4, Insightful)

        by RichiP ( 18379 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @04:13PM (#8874077) Homepage
        Begging your pardon, but I would respectfully have to disagree. Equating being a grandmother to a low level of technical incompetence has its basis in statistics. Even if one were simply forming hypotheses, one could easilly assume that the older one is, the less technically oriented this person is LIKELY to be. Perhaps not inherently because of age itself, but because of the kind of learning experiences these various groups of people have had.

        It's all a matter of making learned guesses and rationalizing ones way through the given information. Not all grandmothers are old. Most seniors have little to no technical training. I can't say for certain whether one becomes harder to train the older one gets.

        As for the statement on discrimination: while I certainly disagree with discrimination in any form, I don't see it happening here or in the article. Discrimination is a directed action against representatives of a group. When software developers develop or talk about designing software for grandmothers, they are simply making assumptions based on numbers. If one were to turn down a job applicant for a technical job, for instance, for simply being a grandmother, then THAT is discrimination.

      • Re:Offended (Score:5, Funny)

        by B'Trey ( 111263 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @04:46PM (#8874643)
        As a 38 year old grandfather (yes, really) I am concerned that another grandparent is so silly as to get her knee-length knickers in a wad over an offhand remark. Look at yourself! You've gotten so upset over this that some of your gray hair has come out of it's bun, your granny glasses are sitting crooked and you're about to lose your dentures. Why don't you have a seat here in the rocker, wrap this quilt you made around your legs and I'll go fix you a nice glass of lemonade.

      • Re:Offended - M3 2 (Score:3, Interesting)

        by 0x0000 ( 140863 )
        ... just why is everyone so eager to accept the idea that only a techinically incompetent individual would want something simple?

        For that matter, who's to say the even techinically incompetent individuals may not want things simplified? I work with techinical incompetents (of diverse ages) who seem to have a definite preference for keeping things as complicated as they possibly can...

        A desire, preference, or choice for simplicity over complexity is not necesarily an indicator of technical competence or l
  • for myself. :B right now i'm battling my first red hat installation...

  • Heh (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:27PM (#8872495)
    Well, Grandma... this is the command line. If you want to update your programs, you open this doohickey, and type in "apt-get install"... no no... there's a hyphen in the middle... yeah just like that... well, why don't I just write it down for you?

    • Re:Heh (Score:5, Insightful)

      by somethinghollow ( 530478 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:36PM (#8872630) Homepage Journal
      It's been my experience that the last sentence you wrote means the person is never going to learn what you are trying to teach them. Why remember when you can just look on that battered, coffee stained, 2 year old sheet of paper that tells you how to do it?

      I think Albert Einstein said something similar.

      In real life, the teach-a-man-to-fish aphorism is practicle and less painful in the long run.

    • Re:Heh (Score:4, Interesting)

      by cshark ( 673578 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:43PM (#8872747)
      My Mom's in her 60's and has an engineering degree. She actually prefers Linux because of the stability. Granted, she's been using Windows since the begining, and before that, DOS.

      I don't think the author of this article gives old people enough credit.

      • Re:Heh (Score:3, Insightful)

        by nvrrobx ( 71970 )
        Your mom is an exception to the rule.

        My grandparents only have a touch-tone telephone because they have to.
    • Most of the platforms I work on, Windows and Mac OS X excepted, I put together a script to automate this, it lives in root's scripts directory, named refresh.

      Cron job calls it, it goes to the configured servers, updates it's software list, then goes through the list and upgrades the software that have updates available. Works nicely for Debian and Mandrake, as well as variations of Debian such as Knoppix.

      A distribution Upgrade would take a bit more work, but if I were to put something like this together f

  • But... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:27PM (#8872499)
    My grandma's a command line hacker. She thinks GUI's are weak. :/

  • Free software lacks usability testing (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Sanity ( 1431 ) * on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:29PM (#8872518) Homepage Journal
    In my research on software usability, one thing I have realized is that usability testing is almost essential. This basically means sitting someone down, and watching passively as they try to use the software you want to test. It is much more akin to a psychological experiment than to engineering.

    Perhaps one explanation for the poor usability of many open source apps is that while open source may be a great way to engineer software, the lone hacker collaborating via the Internet is ill-equipped to do anything even approaching proper usability testing.

    All may not be lost, perhaps a software tool could be written to make such usability testing easier. It could record a user's desktop(perhaps using something like VNC), while also recording their audio commentary on what they are doing.

    • Re:Free software lacks usability testing (Score:4, Insightful)

      by dot-magnon ( 730521 ) <co.auralvision@no> on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:39PM (#8872676) Homepage
      Well, the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines are built on this. It's been carefully written to ensure intuitive interfaces, and it has evolved over time - maybe, in my opinion, one of the flagships of GNOME. It's a base for the best part of the whole thing, the interface.

      But still, I agree that BugZilla aren't a tool for everyone. Filing a bug about something is for better-knowers, not for the average user. Thus, interface problems won't solve without careful research like you state here.

      While the projects were before standalone and small, they've now got big corporations and more money behind them. As long as they don't control the software for their own good, as at least Ximian/Novell never has done, I think the window systems will gain much from this in the years to come.

      Being a GNOME supporter myself, I'm very happy with the newest release. But there are still things to fix - a lot of things that seem unpolished and featureless. I miss some extendibility in the spatial nautilus, and easier access to configuration here and there. But as earlier problems have been, these will get eliminated in a while.
      • Well, the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines are built on this.
        No they aren't, they do suggest usability reviews, but these are a far cry from proper usability testing (a bunch of geeks chatting via IRC is no substitute for passive observation of a newbie trying to use the software).

        • I do believe you are wrong. (Score:5, Informative)

          by theantix ( 466036 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @03:27PM (#8873362) Journal
          Sun did studies like the ones you are referring to and contributed the results back into Gnome. Sure enough, I found a reference to this on the Gnome.org HIG website [gnome.org].

          Your original comment makes it appear that you have not used a recent version of Gnome (2.4 or 2.6) because it that project a very prominent example of how free software can have a focus on usability and still provide useful applications. You really ought to try it out if you haven't lately.

          • You believe wrong (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Sanity ( 1431 ) *
            So Sun did one usability test in 2001 - that is 100% meaningless. Proper usability testing is a continuous process, not something you do once ever few years.

            Your original comment makes it appear that you have not used a recent version of Gnome (2.4 or 2.6) because it that project a very prominent example of how free software can have a focus on usability and still provide useful applications. You really ought to try it out if you haven't lately.

            And your comments make it appear that you aren't reading m

            • Meaningless (Score:3, Insightful)

              by theantix ( 466036 )
              And your comments make it appear that you aren't reading my comments properly. Please explain exactly when popular Gnome applications receive ongoing usability testing (which consists of the passive observation of people using the software within the experimental circumstances I have previously described).

              Perhaps *you* aren't reading your own comments properly. You said usability testing wasn't being done, I showed you that indeed it was. So now you twist your original comment and pretend you were talk

    • Re:Free software lacks usability testing (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Thats very true. When I studied HCI back in the 80s it was a very new area (graphical windows were frontier stuff and XEROX/PARC led the way in what became the seeds of Apples Mac (the first widely available winowing GUI afaik).

      Observation experiments were becomming a standard part of the development cycle. In fact this is the first time that user-centricity was formally dealt with and the science of cognitive ergonomics evolved .

      When it comes to simplistic design you have an advantage in this testing pha
    • All may not be lost, perhaps a software tool could be written to make such usability testing easier. It could record a user's desktop(perhaps using something like VNC), while also recording their audio commentary on what they are doing.

      Right. So your system would test GUI usability ... for people who are comfortable setting up Virtual Network Computers ... and own and can hook up PC microphones ... and are capable of recording to their PC ... and can ship everything over the network to a usability engine

  • Question (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mpost4 ( 115369 ) * on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:29PM (#8872519) Homepage Journal
    Do we think Linux is ready for this. Yes I admit if you have some one set it up well, any one can use it. But Grandma might hear of software X and want it. How will the be done, aka, I heard I can do my taxes on the computer with turboTax, can you set it up for me.

    what are you going to tell her, if you can not get it to work with wine?

    I like the idea, but I am not sure Linux is ready

    • Re:Question (Score:2, Interesting)

      by beetle99 ( 695933 ) *
      I think that you need to look at it from the viewpoint of, "What are the basic functions that Grandma needs?"

      If you limit it to just email and web browsing, then I think Linux is ready for this, if you set it up properly.

      You can do your taxes over the web with Intuit's TurboTax online version.

      If you add in that Grandma needs a word processor, spreadsheet, photo processing (got to get the grandkids pictures), etc. then the problem is a lot more difficult because you run into compatibility issues with
    • I'm sure someone else already said this, but:

      Turbotax for the web runs in Mozilla. I used it this year and last.

    • Re:Question (Score:3, Insightful)

      by bubkus_jones ( 561139 )
      Why does someone always mention this?

      "Linux isn't ready because the software support isn't there."

      "The Software support wont be there until there's a reason for the Developer/Publisher to make a Linux version. The users must be there."

      "But there wont be anyone using it unless they can use the software they hear about."



      Yeah, it's a vicious circle, and nothing will happen unless someone gives, but who? Who has the least amount of risk, the end user who just needs someone to show them what to do

    • Re:Question (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @03:23PM (#8873302) Homepage
      But Grandma might hear of software X and want it.

      with most home users this does not happen.

      you almost never get the "Ohh shiny new software! Must have it!" Most users here are running whatever they got with the computer and the only software they buy is usually to fill the void that the computer had in it. and yes this is at home. Most linux distros now have no void for most users. it has an office suite, a cgheckbook application, email... everything that the regular user would want and use...

      BTW, it is typical for people to buy a whole new computer and get upset that Windows/Office/Works/Quicken has changed and act's different now.. the same argument that I keep hearing about Linux's disadvantage..

      So if my grandma can handle
      Windows 95 with works 95 and Money 95 she certianly can handle Mandrake 10.0 with it's standard goodies and better card + board games. and no, she will not want to go out and buy some new software, all her needs are always funnled the same way the other family members are... "Lumpy, What should I buy? can you install it? I ran it over with my car, can you fix it? the cat puked in it, can you clean it?... and on and on... and they wonder why I start screaming incoherent things over the phone and have to be dragged to family gatherings....."

      • Oh yes (Score:3, Insightful)

        by bogie ( 31020 )
        Almost every home PC I see where kids are not in picture still has the default icons on the desktop. You know, like 5 Dell icons that they never use but don't delete because they don't understand the difference between deleting an icon and deleting/removing an applicatoin. That and you end up seeing a dozen verisons of AOL;AOL 6, AOL 7, AOL 8 etc.
        They only buy new PC's because a) things are so screwed up and the PC(Windows) doesn't work anymore or b) at work they got a new PC and broadband and they finally

    • Re:Question (Score:3, Interesting)

      by usrerco ( 576913 )
      > Do we think Linux is ready for this.

      Linux is just an OS; someone just has to put some attention to creating a package that makes a nice simple interface to mail and web. Has nothing to do with the OS, or even X. It's all in the Window Manager that sits on top of X, and the apps.

      And I think the apps are there, and simple window managers are there, it's just a matter of someone configuring them to be accessable to technophobes, which means getting rid of all the hotkeys, and simplifying the interface s

  • My Vision (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Ckwop ( 707653 ) * on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:29PM (#8872521) Homepage
    There should be a distribution that's really straight forward.

    During install give the layperson the following menu.

    What do you want this computer to do:

    ( ) Send and Recieve e-mail
    ( ) Author Documents
    ( ) Browse the web
    ( ) Play Music
    ( ) More options I've missed
    ( ) Advanced

    In the advanced panel there should be "Install Antivirus and Firewall and autoupdater"
    automatically checked. (Dear Trolls/Flame-junkies: When linux makes serious dent in the user
    market, linux will require AV)

    There should be a basic mode and advanced mode interface.
    Basic mode should just have the options that were set up during the install.
    Advanced mode would allows access to a bash shell and what not.
    Both modes should be proactively secure.

    One suggestion is that the ability to open dangerous attachments should only be allows
    if linked to the use of virus software.

    Linux could totally wipe out Windows on all fronts if it had the design philosophy like an ATM:
    It performs it's function, and it does it well.

    It's an approach i've taken with my mother and the family Windows XP box. I created a custom shell that displayed "Microsoft Word", "Tesco Shopping", "Log Off" buttons.
    I have a happy customer.

    Simon.
    • Sounds like...Linux...XP? =D

    • This can't be right! (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:35PM (#8872613)
      Where's the CowboyNeal option?
    • I've done this before [slashdot.org].

  • Not gonna work. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AKAImBatman ( 238306 ) <akaimbatman@gmaYEATSil.com minus poet> on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:30PM (#8872534) Homepage Journal
    As my recent results [slashdot.org] showed, Grandma's only going to be okay if you're willing to come over and handle all hardware changed, and software installations. Good luck.

    • but remember, we just had a recent article [slashdot.org] about how a 4 year old could use KDE. Because that wasn't interesting news (as most of the /.'ers probably could use a computer prior to the age of 3) we needed to counter that w/Grandma using GNOME.
      • I know you're being funny, but I'd like to point out something implicit in the 4 year old article: The four year old didn't install anything. All the installation and management work was done by her parents. The article's point that the GUI is easy to use is difficult to dispute. But part of using a computer as a self-sufficient adult is being able to plug in new hardware, and install your preferred software.

    • Re:Not gonna work. (Score:5, Funny)

      by David Hume ( 200499 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:49PM (#8872829) Homepage

      As my recent results [slashdot.org] showed, Grandma's only going to be okay if you're willing to come over and handle all hardware changed, and software installations. Good luck.


      What you don't realize is that Grandma deliberately breaks things because, damn it, you don't come over and visit enough.

      Just who do you think sets up the troubleshooting section of the RHCE exam?

      And when in hell are you going to give her some grandkids?

  • This has to be done.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by nocomment ( 239368 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:30PM (#8872536) Homepage Journal
    ack...must...pull...hands...from...keyboard...not. ..strong...enough...to...resist...

    I don't see anything spatial about the new nautilus

    Dang...
  • 75 is a little bit late, IMO. My dad is 60, and I'm not even going to bother. I made my mom get a Mac. She's 50. She actually wants to know how to use a computer. I think at some point in life, some/most people just don't care to learn new (read: life changing) things.

    Arguably, some people NEVER care about learning new things. Wow this hole I dug myself into is dark.
    • I'm 30, a former programmer, and I have no interest in learnign new shit either. My computers are just tools for my businesses now. Once you get a life (business/job, family, friends), unless that happens to be your interest, there's little point in "learning comptuers".

  • Onion: (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:32PM (#8872567)
    ROCHESTER, MN--Karen Widmar, 33, who for the past two months has been trying to teach her 60-year-old mother how to use the Internet, called the endeavor "a Sisyphean ordeal" Monday.

    Above: Lillian Widmar attempts to e-mail her daughter.

    "Jesus Christ, you have no idea," said Widmar after yet another unsuccessful lesson. "Every single thing I show her, no matter how simple, totally freaks her out. She's still afraid to click on pictures because she doesn't know where it's going to take her."

    Widmar said she introduced her mother Lillian to the Internet at her request.

    "It's funny, I was always trying to get her interested so I could e-mail her," Widmar said. "Then, one day, she called me up and said she was watching Today, and they had a guest on who made potatoes, and the recipe was online, and was that the same as the Internet? When I told her it was, she got really excited. Maybe I should've lied."

    According to Widmar, the troubles began immediately.

    "Trying to show her how to use the mouse took almost a week," Widmar said. "For some reason, she got it in her head that you had to hold the button down to make it move. Then, when I explained that the computer communicates over the telephone via her built-in modem, she kept asking where you hold the receiver. And she wouldn't stop calling the keyboard 'the typewriter.'"

    Still more complications arose when Widmar tried to show her mother how to navigate a search engine.

    "For practice, I logged onto Yahoo! and had her search for cheesecake recipes," Widmar said. "She got totally confused by the fact that we were searching within a web site for other web sites. She kept typing her keyword searches into the Internet Explorer address bar, not into the Yahoo! search bar. Then, when she accidentally typed 'cheesecake' into the Explorer box, it actually worked, because there happened to be a web site called that, so that just confused her even more."

    After nearly a month, Lillian had finally gotten to the point where she could log onto a web site on her own. Almost every time, however, something unexpected would occur, causing her to panic and call her daughter for help.

    Above: Karen Widmar with her mother Lillian, who continues to struggle with Internet use.

    "It could be almost anything," Widmar said. "She goes apeshit whenever a pop-up window comes up. And one time, she paged me because she got a message about accepting cookies. She was all freaked out because now she thought she was being charged for actual cookies."

    Widmar said her mother still does not grasp the difference between the Internet and e-mail.

    "Whenever she wants to send me an e-mail, she says she's going to Internet me," Widmar said. "I think that's because we use AOL, so she has to log onto the Internet to do her e-mailing. Then there's chat rooms, which she thinks is e-mail. I just pray she never finds out about message boards. That'll throw her whole world into a tailspin."

    Despite knowing next to nothing about computers or the Internet, Lillian will frequently attempt to troubleshoot problems using new terms she had heard.

    "Every time she hears a new word involving computers, she incorporates it into her questions," Widmar said. "Last time she called, she said she couldn't get her e-mail working and that there must be something wrong with her firewall. I tried to explain that she didn't have a firewall, so she said her Java must be broken."

    Widmar said her mother is a fairly anxious person in general, and that her recent forays into Internet use have only exacerbated those tendencies. Among her mother's greatest fears, Widmar said, is that she will be the target of computer crime.

    "Last week, she freaked out because she got a porn spam," Widmar said. "Now she thinks they're targeting her for stalking or kidnapping. She wouldn't go near her computer for four days. She was also convinced that because the computer could send photos, it was capable of taking photos of her, maki

  • Spatial Nautilus (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Gunark ( 227527 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:33PM (#8872592)
    From the description, "spatial Nautilus" sounds exactly like the Finder (file system browser) in Mac OS 9. Nothing wrong with that -- I prefer it to the annoying one-window-per-folder Windows Explorer -- but it's interesting to see this being described as the "next step" in UI design, when it's more of a step back (or a step away from Microsoftianism if you prefer).

    • Re:Spatial Nautilus (Score:3, Informative)

      by beattie ( 594287 )
      ... I prefer it to the annoying one-window-per-folder Windows Explorer

      Umm, one window per folder = spatial folders. Windows explorer has the panes with the tree on one side and the contents on the other and when you click on things they open in the same window.

      • Re:Spatial Nautilus (Score:3, Informative)

        by Coryoth ( 254751 )
        Umm, one window per folder = spatial folders. Windows explorer has the panes with the tree on one side and the contents on the other and when you click on things they open in the same window.

        I believe the grandparent was referring to the mode available in Win95-98 and WinNT that opened a new window for each folder. This was not a sptial system, merely a scheme that opened new windows all over the place. A spatial scheme implies the existence of other attributes (only 1 view/window for any folder, and th

  • Won't grandma be surprised (Score:5, Insightful)

    by eltoyoboyo ( 750015 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:34PM (#8872609) Journal
    when she finds out that this revolutionary idea of opening a new window for each folder is one of the first features users turned off in windows 95 [vanwijk.com]

    • Re:Won't grandma be surprised (Score:5, Insightful)

      by b-baggins ( 610215 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:55PM (#8872912) Journal
      That's because Win95's implementation was broken. Having all the widgets of a browser (menu bar, shortcut buttons, etc.) breaks the paradigm. Instead of opening folders, you're just opening more and more browser windows.

      There's a reason Apple puts a global menu bar across the top of the screen and not in every window that appears on the screen.

    • Re:Won't grandma be surprised (Score:5, Informative)

      by Coryoth ( 254751 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @04:02PM (#8873898) Homepage Journal
      when she finds out that this revolutionary idea of opening a new window for each folder is one of the first features users turned off in windows 95

      Yes, but unfortunately there is more to a proper spatial interface than simply opening another window for each folder. Microsoft's implementation was very simplistic and failed to implement the atttribute preserving properties, and general "window as a folder" paradigm that spatial interfaces are all about.

      I'm not a huge fan of spatial navigation - I don't think it's that great without some useful systems to make sure the window managment is easy (and note that the GNOME version has many of those, while the MS Windows version did not - another serious difference in usability right there) - but to compare a well implemented spatial interface with the very broken, half implemented system Windows used is pointless. The Windows95-2k "open folder in new window" scheme never grasped the key points of a spatial interface, it just aped roughly what Macs did.

      Just because windows created a very bad, half assed version of the idea doesn't mean the idea is bad, merely that the MS implementation sucked.

      Check your logic and try again.

      Jedidiah.
  • I don't know why that's so innovative... it looks pretty much like MacOS's old "super easy" setting (i forget what it's called now,been years.)
  • a linux cluster of grandmas?

  • This reveals the new object-oriented behavior of Nautilus. The single major and possibly controversial feature of GNOME 2.6 is the introduction of a new look-and-feel for Nautilus: the oft-misspelled spatial metaphor. As first indicated here, the spatial metaphor brings a different methodology of viewing desktop folders and their relationships.

    Has no chance of explaining anything to the technically challenged.

  • FileSystem for Grandma? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Twister002 ( 537605 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:38PM (#8872661) Homepage
    Note the label "FileSystem" in the Nautilus screenshot.

    You just lost Grandma. Heck you just lost my dad.
    You want to know how to design a computer for Grandma? You design it like a TV or a toaster is designed. Task oriented rather than open ended.
    • As a hard headed slashdotter it pains me to admit that your idea sounds like Windows XP and it has merit. I'm sure you'll be modded down for that:)

    • Re:FileSystem for Grandma? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Gunark ( 227527 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:57PM (#8872949)
      This is one of the oldest and one of the dumbest arguments in UI design.

      Think about it... was your TV really designed to work like something else? Pressing buttons to change "channels", turn on "muting" and show "closed captioning" are all pretty abstract and bizarre sounding concepts to someone who has never used a TV. The TV user had to learn all this stuff from scratch, yet few people complain about this.

      Computers shouldn't be built to behave like TV's, and TV's shouldn't be built to behave like toasters. The user interface for technology should reflect the best and most efficient way to use that particular piece of technology. If you do it right (and there's no magic bullet, other than KEEP IT SIMPLE), your average grandma will learn it just fine. Give people some credit, they're not quite as stupid as they look :)

  • My Grandmother: a story. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pararox ( 706523 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:38PM (#8872668)
    I recently visited my Grandmother, who is quickly approaching 80 years of age. She is *highly* non-technical, and her spouse recently passed away, so she is pretty much on her own (in more ways than one, obviously).

    We bought a simple Compaq for her back in the late '90's which was running Windows '98. It was a constant source of consternation and trouble. I spoke with her, and after a little debating, convinced her to 'revolutionize' her computing experience by installing Linux.

    This I infact did, putting SuSE on her machine. I told her: "now, just leave the machine on all the time. You can leave the 'internet' window (aka, browser) always open. Be happy!"

    Happy she is. While the DE used is actually KDE, the success of her transition goes to show that Linux is ready. In all honesty, I was surprised with the rapidity with which she grew accustomed to her system.

    The most advantageous thing about moving her over: no longer are there long stretches of time where she can't email because her computer is on the fritze (she often had to wait for me or her son to visit and correct things). We've been in constant electronic communication since. It's wonderful.
    • 1. Leaving a desktop computer on 24/7 is not a wise choice. It uses electricity, generates pollution, and results in a shorter shelf-life for many pieces of hardware. Would you mute your television when you're not watching instead of turning it off? The power button isn't all that complicated, and labeling icons "Internet" and "Email" would probably solve those problems, too.

      2. Your grandmother is only using the internet and email. No one ever said Linux wasn't ready for that kind of work. The problem is w

    • Re:My Grandmother: a story. (Score:5, Funny)

      by Nept ( 21497 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @03:45PM (#8873583) Journal
      Happy she is

      Works for her, does it?

  • Might not be too hard. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by WoodenRobot ( 726910 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:40PM (#8872694) Homepage
    Modern distros install all you'd really want for your PC as a grandma, Namely a web browser, an email program and a word processor.

    The big problem's setting it up - so the focus should presumably be on a setup and install system that basically runs itself. This is where Linux can be tricky, but to be honest, when I installed SuSE 9, it was fine.

    A clueless n00b will always need help, especially if they've never seen a computer being used before (which is the worst case scenario), so why not teach Grandma how to use it and set it up for her at the same time? And why not get used to using Linux rather than Windows as a first system? Importantly, Linux is harder to break, if you stay out of root, and doesn't suffer from viruses etc.

    I think Linux for grandmas is perfectly feasible with modern distros.

  • Get Granny a Mac (Score:3, Interesting)

    by sfled ( 231432 ) <sfled@@@yahoo...com> on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:41PM (#8872716) Journal

    Unless Granny is very bright and willing to learn, get her a Mac and use "Simple Finder" or whatever it's called.

    Mine's 71. I gave her an old iBook running Mac OS9 and she's happy as a clam (no pun int.) She uses the bundled OE & IE. Nothing else.

  • Dare I say it? (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Grandma got run over by a penguin

  • My grandma (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SuperQ ( 431 ) * on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:43PM (#8872756) Homepage
    My grandma is running Debian/woody on the machine I setup for her.. I locked most of her config files so that no matter what she does, it will not automaticaly save session information.. so if she messes it up, she can just reboot.

    I setup 4 icons for her to click on.. OpenOffice 1.0 (writer), Mozilla, Mozilla Mail, and a button that does a shutdown -h now.. that's it..

    I also setup the system with diald, so she doesn't have to figure out how to startup a ppp session.. works great.. she only calls me once a month about "problems with the computer" which always mean, something she forgot, and is doing incorrectly.. like when trying to click with the mouse, highlighting text in OOo, and then typing over the top of whole paragraphs of text.

    "grandma, just use the keyboard"

  • Hey come on... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by advocate_one ( 662832 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:44PM (#8872776)
    Why the constant assumption that Grandma and Grandpa can't cope with Linux??? I am a grandfather and I have no problems at all... so stop doing us down... Thank you.

    This has been a public service announcement from the Grandparents are not Clueless Idiots Association...

    Normal service is now being resumed... flame on...

  • Windows Killed My Grandma (Score:4, Funny)

    by bfg9000 ( 726447 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:48PM (#8872820) Homepage Journal
    Yup, I introduced my grandma to spam, viruses, a trojan horse that allowed some kid to pop up gay porn on her screen and open and shut her CD tray, a continuously quitting internet connection, and finally, the Blue Screen of Death... Windows eventually gave my grandma a heart attack.

    How do you sleep at night, Bill Gates? Oh, yeah, that's right. On a bed of money.

    But then again, now that Grandma's dead, so do I. Thanks, Bill! Now I know why everyone buys your stuff!
    • Why would you do that to your grandmother you sick sick bastard!

      Not the windows install but the not properly setting it up up part to allow all of that to happen ;)

      But kudos on a fairly funny post :)
  • Everyone knows me as "they guy who is good with computers". Obviously that is then extended to virtually anything that requires electricity ;-)

    Its my job to make sure that all the people I know have their videos set to the correct time, the TV is tuned, the remote control works and the computer prints, e-mails and connects to the "interweb"

    They don't care what "operating system" they use, they can barely pronounce "operating system" without strange facial contortions. All they want is e-mail, instant

    • Re:At least I'm not the only one! (Score:5, Informative)

      by rjstanford ( 69735 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:56PM (#8872919) Homepage Journal
      Most of what you say, I agree with. Execpt...

      It doesn't matter if Open Office has "a squirrely install" - so does Microsoft Office.

      I just installed Office 2003 on my laptop here:
      1. Put the CD in the drive
      2. Enter the registration key
      3. Select "Complete Installation"
      4. Wait and watch the blinkenlights

      That was it. Nothing squirrely there, I'm afraid. Yes, MSFT is an easy target - but there's no reason to blame them or their products inaccurately. It just reflects poorly on the rest of some very good points.

      • Re:At least I'm not the only one! (Score:5, Informative)

        by RealAlaskan ( 576404 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @03:18PM (#8873241) Homepage Journal
        I just installed Office 2003 on my laptop here:
        1. Put the CD in the drive
        2. Enter the registration key
        3. Select "Complete Installation"
        4. Wait and watch the blinkenlights

        That was it. Nothing squirrely there, I'm afraid.

        Compare that to
        #apt-get install openoffice.org

        or a couple of clicks in Synaptic. Steps 2 and 3 are pretty squirrely compared to that and if you have a net connection, step 1 should seem a bit weird, as well.

        It's not just Debian that's this easy: Gentoo and *BSD folks tell me it's that easy for them too.

        I have to admit that MS does have us beaten in the blinkenlights department. Blinkenlights have obviously been a top priority throughout their corporate history.

  • ...presenting windows 3.11 for Linux.

  • So this is for Grandma, eh? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Vengeance ( 46019 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:59PM (#8872971)
    What if my Grandma had been, oh, let's say Grace Hopper?

  • personal experience: family on Gnome on FreeBSD (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bsDaemon ( 87307 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @03:03PM (#8873021)
    I more or less forced my family into the posititon of working on a FreeBSD workstation running Gnome. My sister, who has recently turned 18 has adapted amazingly well, as has my mother. My dad couldn't really use a windows computer, so i guess he's the "control" group saying it is equally has difficult. I took back my 1.2Ghz Celeron w/ 1GB of RAM because they were not actually /doing/ anything and I needed my server back. Now all parties are well served. I login via SSH w/ forwared X11 via my iBook G4 and do what I need to do on the FreeBSD machine. They use it physically.
    GNOME is "good enough" the way it is. Personally, I wouldn't attempt to make my grandparnts change. My grandpa is 91 and my grandma is 81. They don't really use their computer much, but can do what they do (email and that's about it). For christs sake, they're old enough, you know? why make them suffer more over so trivial an issue?

    • Re:personal experience: family on Gnome on FreeBSD (Score:5, Interesting)

      by polyp2000 ( 444682 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @03:20PM (#8873260) Homepage Journal
      why make them suffer more over so trivial an issue?

      While my parents are not as old as yours, they have been retired for a number of years now. About a month ago their win98 machine was due for it's annual fdisk like clockwork! Anyhow my mother asked why she cant try linux. Frustrated by Windows and couldnt understand why i never get p*ssed off with my linux box! I explained that much of her software might not work (the odd thing might run through wine) but she could use linux for her email and web browsing etc.

      I tried her with knoppix first to give her a feel for it; evidently she picked it up almost immediately. My dad who is much less savvy has even migrated with no problems.

      Anyway eventually I set them up dual booting windows and linux (Mandrake 10). The choice is theirs to make but 90% of the time its sitting there running linux and she just goes into windows to use the Family Tree Program now.

      The best part is that from time to time when she goes into windows I hear her muttering about how much she hates windows!

      nick .

  • I know I'm rehashing... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) <teamhasnoi AT yahoo DOT com> on Thursday April 15, 2004 @03:14PM (#8873171) Journal
    but why not buy a $100 Beige G3, and give them OS 9 or hell, for a few bucks more(for ram) OS X? They're cheap and speedy, they handle pictures and Gramma-letters great, no viruses, and have the fortune of being designed by some of the greatest UI designers in the world?

    Rarely do I come across UIs on the mac that are confusing. Grammas everywhere should be so lucky.

    Unless of course, YOU DON'T LOVE YOUR GRAMMA!!!

  • "New features" and learning from scratch. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by EvilFrog ( 559066 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @03:26PM (#8873346)
    I like Linux and all, but looking at spacial Nautilus reminds me of the biggest problem with the Linux world is- it replicates, but doesn't innovate.

    Spacial Nautilus just makes Gnome that much more like pre-OS X Mac OS. The new features they're advertising have been around since System 7. I like the changes, and I'll probably take advantage of them when using Gnome, but they aren't anything new.

    To get back on topic, even with these "new" features, Linux is still much more complicated than Grandma can probably handle. Just because you like Linux and understand it doesn't mean that it's the right choice for Grandma. Think, why do you use Linux? Are any of those reason anything that you honestly think that Grandma cares about?

    I remember when we first got my Grandfather a computer. We got an old Mac Plus running System 6.0.8 and set him up with a word processor and a printer. After a while we upgraded him to a IIsi. Then we got him a modem and put him on AOL. By the time he died he was on his fourth computer- a G4, and one of the better models at the time.

    The point is that he learned slowly, but eventually got the hang of it. System 6 was a perfect place to start him at because it was simple, and let him adjust slowly to more modern technology. If I would have set him up with a modern OS I don't think he would have ever progressed past the word processing stage.

  • usable computers (Score:3, Interesting)

    by six11 ( 579 ) <johnsogg@@@cmu...edu> on Thursday April 15, 2004 @03:54PM (#8873727) Homepage

    There's been quite a buzz on Slashdot lately wrt open source and usability. Making a computer easy to use for "Grandma" (an insulting label for non-Slashdorks) isn't about limiting the number of icons on the desktop, or choosing the right text labels that these "Grandmas" of the world will understand. The slashdot communal mind needs to understand that usable software isn't just about adding a shiney coating to the outside--usable software has to be designed that way from the very beginning, and is a huge undertaking!

    If you're interested in usable software, consider checking out these books: "The Inmates are Running the Asylum" [amazon.com] by Alan Cooper, and Designing from Both Sides of the Screen [amazon.com] by Ellen Isaacs and Alan Walendowski.

    Personally, I hope that the recent trend on slashdot to talk about usability is more than just a fad and the open source world is finally starting to come around. These books are good starting points.

  • BFD (Score:4, Insightful)

    by sootman ( 158191 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @04:06PM (#8873968) Homepage Journal
    Hooray, they have re-invented Mac OS 7's spatial finder. And guess what: I've been explaining to users how to navigate Mac OS since 1995, and leaving everyting on the desktop only works if a) you don't mind a cluttered desktop (many users do) and b) you have a large enough monitor.

    And there are plenty of surprises. (Not sure if Nautilus copies this or not, but this is what OS 7-9 did.) Double-click on the hard drive (or your home folder, or whatever) and put it in list/details view. Double-click on a folder--say, Documents. Go back to the parent window. Click the flippy triangle or plus sign or whatever next to Documents. Watch the "Documents" window close itself. Start explaining "spatial" to the user. Prepare for blank stares.

    Face it: computers are complex devices that can perform a multitude of functions. Unless you are going to do only the most basic things (for example, only run a word processor and always save all your docs to the same folder) it will always be complex.

  • From my first time use of KDE: (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Killswitch1968 ( 735908 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @04:16PM (#8874147)
    I would say Linux is great for programmers and geeks, but also for complete neophytes who need to do very little with their computer; email, browsing, word processor, etc.

    However I felt deeply alienated trying to use it myself. It had all this great bundled stuff, but I struggled to customize anything, save the wallpaper. Installing programs lead to aggravating dependency-something-or-others and it would take hours to do something that would take seconds in Windows.

    However once it's all setup I'm sure it would be great, especially for grandma. I just don't have that kind of patience for headaches.

  • Spatial browser ... been DONE already! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Atomic Frog ( 28268 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @04:26PM (#8874330)
    Folks, it wouldn't hurt to learn a bit of history. Don't re-invent the wheel.

    IBM's OS/2 WorkPlace Shell (WPS) has been using the spatial browser method for many, many years.

    Open up a folder anywhere, one window for one folder. It retains it's size and position from the last time you closed it, and yes, even scroll bar position and view (different views are possible).

    SHIFT+double-click to close the parent while opening up the child, and just right-click to bring up the menu to open the parent.

    Sound familiar?
    The features go on and on...and by the way, here's one thing that Nautilus doesn't have yet. The concept of a "Workspace".

    Designate a folder as a Workspace in OS/2 WPS, and next time you open it, a complete environment will be restored. All open applications, all documents, any web browser links, etc. Close the folder, and everything closes up shop automatically.

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