VideoNOW PVD Reverse Engineering 195
Zoc_All_Alone writes "In mid-July, Hasbro released the VideoNOW, a portable media player for kids. The disks are specially encoded ~3 inch audio CDs. We have started a project to reverse engineer the format, and have made considerable progress. More information about the player can be found at the Hasbro website."
DMCA VIOLATION (Score:5, Funny)
Re:DMCA VIOLATION (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:DMCA VIOLATION (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:DMCA VIOLATION (Score:2)
Excuse me while I go engineer myself a can of Coke from the fridge.
Re:DMCA VIOLATION (Score:2)
In America, we have HELLO DMCA.
Re:DMCA VIOLATION (Score:2)
How awful that people post comments like this on something which is specifically allowed and encouraged by copyright law.
That's all well and good (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: So Crates (Score:4, Funny)
Then, in the absence of Abe Lincoln, we brought back a Speak N Spell
Re: So Crates (Score:2)
I like the hack Bubs did when he made a Strong Bad robot out of a Grape Nuts box with a Speak N Spell [homestarrunner.com]
Re:That's all well and good (Score:2, Funny)
When I was about ten I "reverse engineered" my kid brother's interactive eduational robot called 2XL. Conclusion: It was an 8-track player.
I guess I should have published my work to save these guys [pickletreats.com] the trouble.
But does it run Linux? (Score:3, Informative)
I'm sure Hasbro will nip this in the bud as soon as they realize someone could market their own shows for it. (Or, god-forbid, porn!)
But does it run Linux?-Tastless humour. (Score:1, Funny)
If they did that? Would it be kiddie-porn?
DMCA (Score:5, Funny)
Re:DMCA (Score:5, Funny)
How much do you wanna bet that their lawyers are not from playskool????
Re:DMCA (Score:5, Funny)
I just hope... (Score:2)
One is never too careful nowadays...
let's support them (Score:3, Interesting)
On the other hand, it's easier to just sit and type about how much the DMCA sucks and how cool reverse engineering is.
Re:let's support them (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:let's support them (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure they just wont care. This hack is of interest to about a dozen people worldwide, and I doubt there will be a big 0-day-videomanZ scene.
MS and Sony dont make too big of a deal over modding, and they have something to lose.
Re:let's support them (Score:2)
Hmmm.. I wonder who the other 11 people are?
My girlfriend has two kids from former relationships; a son who is 14 and a daughter who is 5. Due to the difference in their ages, there isn't much they can agree on to watch, so putting a DVD player in our vehicle for long car trips would be kind of pointless. However, for only $100 I could buy two of these so they could each have one, and if I could figure out how to rip a DVD and put it on one or m
right on (Score:2)
Re:right on (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe B&W was chosen because it decreased the memory requirements of the video...
Unless they increase the memory capacity of those discs (which would drive up the cost) or decrease the duration of each video, they probably can't do color.
Re:+5 Interesting?? (Score:2, Insightful)
One Question; (Score:4, Interesting)
It is freakin grayscale for christsakes. Most people gave up on Black and White video somewhere around the Nixon Administration in the U.S.
Its cute and all, but go buy a portable DVD and go find a project where you are not going to run the risk of being sued into oblivion by the borg of Hasbro.
Re:One Question; (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:One Question; (Score:1)
I got news for you, buddy.
This IS their real life!
Thats what they do, seriously. RTFA.
Just college kids with nothing better to do than fiddle about in the toy section at Wal-Mart.
Re:One Question; (Score:2)
I mean really, it sure would
because! (Score:2)
standard formats (Score:5, Informative)
They seem to be wasting their time grabbing frames and converting from jpegs etc. They should just try work out what the standard is. Afterall, why would the developers of the VideoNOW spend the time and money developing some new format when there are heaps out there already. They are already using a non-standard CD size to stop people just playing the discs on their own machines, and people wouldn't pay $8 for a few b/w low res cartoons to play on their own machines anyway. - so why use a propriety format?
Standard? Hah, don't make me laugh. (Score:5, Informative)
They don't list an extraction step, but I assume it's CDDA. The mysterious packets in the audio track "left channel" might be used to help that extraction process on a cheap playback device, or provide error correction information that would normally be present in a Yellow Book format.
I don't think there's any standard out there for cramming video in an audio channel in a strange packeting format with a hack to read timing information out of the other channel. These seem like very hardware-oriented, cost based design decisions.
Re:standard formats (Score:5, Insightful)
Its called the "bunch of grayscale bitmaps one after another" standard. Audio in one channel, video in the other. Pretty much the most obvious way any reasonable designer would put it together.
The VideoNOW itself has no ability to decompress video or do anything fancy. Just load a pixmap into an 80x80 register array 15 times a second. I'm not the least bit shocked the bitmaps are already 80x80 hex arrays, ready to go.
Its unlikely Hasbro was ever concerned about someone hacking a goofy little kids toy that'll cost 20 bucks come christmas time.
Re:standard formats (Score:4, Funny)
Its unlikely Hasbro was ever concerned about someone hacking a goofy little kids toy that'll cost 20 bucks come christmas time.
In many cases, the toy industry is second only to black operations national defense contractors, in how tightly they control their technology. If a toy becomes at all popular, they will be dissected and reproduced cheaper by a knock-off company. So they often obfuscate and epoxy as much as possible about the design.
In this case, it is the lucrative accessories market they're ceding by not protecting their design carefully enough... a big surprise.
Re:standard formats (Score:2)
Um no, they use those discs to make it small. Do you think the project would work if they had to buy some proprietary drive? No. Incidentally, I have a stack of 2.5" (or 3"?) CD-RWs sitting right here on my desk. They may not be mainstream but non-standard? Same laser reads them.
"so why use a propriety format? "
I know I've already fielded this one, but it still has to be said, duh!
Way too much time on your hands (Score:1)
You better patent that ... (Score:2)
Of course, set up a shell company with the sole purpose of exploting IP rights.
Re:You better patent that ... (Score:1)
Re:You better patent that ... (Score:1)
Re:Way too much time on your hands (Score:2)
it takes 3 inch cd's and has a keyboard and B&W display for access to the texts and images on the CD. (and you can put wav files in there too)
It's a neat thing that I had about 5 books for it, hacked the flat file database format for it and then sat there pissed because 3 inch CDR's were not available in 1997....
they were a neat idea, the E-book before the e-book... but they failed miserably... sales were dismal and the sony store in chicago gave away hundreds of the bo
Re:Way too much time on your hands (Score:2)
Why would you want to hack this device in order to display text on an 80x80 pixel screen?
Get yourself a used palm for the same money (or less) and view them on a 160x160 screen without having to convert them to video or burn a CD.
No, it seems the only real use for this would be for a
No Color ?? (Score:1, Redundant)
Move over Adobe... (Score:2)
I think we found our new outlawed ROT13.
Feature? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Feature? (Score:1)
Re:Feature? (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re:Feature? (Score:2)
You have no right to decide how it is or isn't benifical to customers.
The device isn't Hasbro's anymore. They SOLD it and they no longer OWN it.
They have no right to decide what is or isn't beneficial for the owner after they've sold it.
Just because you think some feature of a product isn't benificial doesn't give you the license to undermine the protections that were built into it.
I don't need a "licence" to "undermine" "protections" that a
It is a feature (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Feature? (Score:2)
Comming soon to the Microsoft site:
80x80 16 shades (Score:1, Funny)
I'd rather watch a 30 minute animated "buddy icon."
What is the point? (besides the obvious) (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What is the point? (besides the obvious) (Score:2)
Re:What is the point? (besides the obvious) (Score:4, Interesting)
Be creative! (Score:2)
Maybe you could give them away at a trade show with it showing a little info video about your new product which the customer could walk while walking around. If they don't bring it back, who cares??
You could plant several of them around the city/campus and make some sort of mission-impossible scavenger hunt for your pal.
Whenever there's "cool hacked thing" story
Nothing new under the sun... (Score:5, Interesting)
It sounds to me like this little gadget is the modern implementation of a narrowband television. There are still guys who dink around with this stuff (indeed, I've started to assemble the parts for one myself), for fun you could try the Narrow Band Television Association [wyenet.co.uk] website.
That being said, it seems like the format can't possibly be that difficult to determine. If the authors posted .wav files of some of the audio tracks, I suspect that an afternoon's worth of work by someone familiar with NBTV would crack the modulation wide open. After all, the box itself is obviously very cheap, it probably has very little CPU power, it can't be that
complicated.
It's a pity they don't use the normal mini-CDs, if they did I might buy one just for the novelty of being able to make my own CDs. I think they missed a bit of a hacker market by deliberately disabling this possibility.
Re:Nothing new under the sun... (Score:2)
I think they missed a bit of a hacker market by deliberately disabling this possibility.
The typical concern with toys is that the hackers might propagate content inappropriate for children. I'm guessing that this sort of content control was a factor here.
Even my cellphone has a bigger color display (Score:1, Informative)
and that is right now 65k+ colors , by the time you figured it out my 2003 cellphone is going to seem old, oh and it cost me nothing (0$) with my talkplan
In other news.. (Score:1, Troll)
man, i would love to have that much free time.
Re: cure for cancer (Score:2)
No more "We can put a man on the moon, but we can't cure cancer"...
Re: cure for cancer (Score:2)
"watch what you want" (Score:1)
Deja vu all over again (Score:2)
Oh my God! It's the new [michaeloreilly.com] Pixelvision [jm3.net]!
Actually, it's not. At least, not yet. Pixelvision was so great because it was liberating. It was the video version of the portable 4-track tape recorder. It brought the DIY/Garage ethos to movie making.
This thing is all about consuming licensed content ("Collect Them All" [hasbro.com]) from the major media players, as if that's any big surprise. Sure, Zoc_All_Alone [wsu.edu] is reverse-engineering the file format, but until someone can hack a Mavica [steves-digicams.com] to record in that format, I don't thi
Re:Deja vu all over again (Score:2)
Oh, well. With digital camcorders down in the $400 range these days and standard audiotape becoming rather a rarity these days, the PXL-2000 isn't as compelling as it used to be (microtape is a possibility, though I found out to my chagrin last night that microcassettes are probably unacceptably fragile for such an application).
Actually, I find a trip around Toy
Why reverse engineer this?... (Score:1)
Just think, you can download Lord of The Rings fron the net then the kids can crowd around and watch tiny screen.
"When I was your age, our TV was round and 3mm across. We had to ride a bicycle generator for 8 hours to watch 21 minutes of TV."
Seriously, it might make good modding material, but beyond that I think it is
great role models (Score:5, Funny)
DMCA Violation? I don't think so... (Score:3, Interesting)
mewyn
Re:DMCA Violation? I don't think so... (Score:2)
Another question: through the normal course of using a computer, can you make a compatible disc? Ah!! But computers are general purpose devices. Or are they? (Or will they be?) This is one of the loopholes that the **AAs would like to close. If people are producing their own
More interested inn the device than the codec. (Score:2)
Hmmmm (Score:2)
Screen resolution = 80 * 80 = 6400 pixels
Bits per pixel = 4
Bits per screen = 6400 * 4 = 25600
16 bit words per screen = 1600
16 bit words per second per channel of CD audio = 44100
Therefore, regular CD audio carries enough data for 44100/1600 = 441/16 = 27.5625 frames a second at this resolution. And TV only uses 25 frames a second. But this thing is reckoned to give 15 frames a second; hence there is plenty of spare space for timing information, insurance against lost bit
Interesting possibilities (Score:2)
Not the software, which is apparently almost entirely absent, but the hardware concept.
Unbreakable, cheap, fairly compact video on near-to-disposable media. Let's drive this up a rev and see what will be possible in two or three years time with some modest improvements.
1. Most obviously, a larger and color display. Well, I guess OLEDs are the answer, since this is basically a toy which does not need years of lifespan.
2. Larger si
Re:Interesting possibilities (Score:2)
I agree - but you've got to do it fast while portable DVD players are still way expensive.
There's not a huge cost difference between CD drives and DVD drives, DVD's already an established format and DVD decoder chips will be as cheap soon.
80x80 pixels - 4bit grayscale - rats ass (Score:4, Interesting)
I've made some 160x160 pixel movies (in color, using TealMovie) for my antique palm IIIc, and even that resolution, with four times as many pixels as the VideoNOW toy, was worthless for video.)
Fifty bucks for the basic VideoNOW unit seems pretty steep considering how little you actually get and how much they're gouging the kids for the content discs - 'collect them all!'
Judging from photographs of this unit, it's just a very basic (non-backlit) LCD screen with crappy contrast and slow refresh. Throw in awful resolution, 15fps and 8-bit sound technology from the 90s, there's just nothing in this worth much effort - the novelty value won't last long, and the actual content enjoyment will be nearly nil.
You might compare this with the antique PixelVision thing from Fisher-Price, which is pretty cool and has a sustained cult following even to this day, but I think mostly because it's a capture system with a unique 'lens' (plastic bubble with nil-to-infinite fixed 'focus' range) and very very strange image processing. Even that thing, 15 year old mostly analog toy, has much better resolution than the VideoNOW.
I dunno, maybe I'm just getting old, but this stuff doesn't seem very exciting to me. I can't imagine my 5-year-old nephew would be very impressed either, since he has one of those GBAs with bright backlit color screens.
At least it doesn't seem too heavily infected by DRM.
When I was a kid... (Score:2)
I never had one of those, but my Dad would go to yard sales and brought home a circa 1955 equivalent which was marketed by Disney and had clips from the Mickey Mouse club and other short cartoons. This was much cooler IMHO.
Make your own movie for the VIDEONOW (Score:2)
Ok, where's the raw WAV file (Score:2)
Also how about creating a SourceForge [sourceforge.net] page for it?
Corporate speak (Score:2)
This is an amazing summary of how the corporate world doesn't speak with customers, they speak at customers. Only someone stuck in a corporate mindset would think that missing functionality and vendor lock in was an amazing feature that customers want.
I understand that the product might not be financially viable without these limitations. My problem is that they brazens claim it
The ultimate kid's movie platform (Score:2)
Given that most kids who would be interested already have these two devices, you would just be looking at the price of the GB cart.
It'll never happen -- but
Cool. (Score:2)
Rich
Re:For your convenience: (Score:1)
"I welcome our new reverse engineered overlords"
Re:Why? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Why is this so hard to understand? Why can't people be allowed to make money on things *they* make. They took the risk. Do you understand what it takes to market something? It's a *huge* risk.
Why can't someone's hard work just be simply respected? It isn't that hard.
If you want something that will display content you want...make it yourself. You might get an idea on the kin
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Figuring out how stuff works isn't malicious. Neither is finding new uses for your property.
I doubt that the target audience for this is going to go wild burning their video collection on this thing. If Hasbro's content is unique enough and cheap enough, it'll sell. If it isn't, and people don't want it, it won't
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Re:Why? (Score:2)
The idea of selling easily swipable URLs wasn't actually a bad one at all. When talking to [harrassing] their technical support, I accidently got forwarded e-mails ment for other departments. People were willing to actually pay for the service of easily swipeable URLS. However, they went about it in the wron
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Of course there isn't. The only problem is most companies limit the viewability of their content to a particular device rather than making it available to all to purchase.
Re:Why? (Score:2)
I worked *HARD* digging a 6-meter hole in my backyard with only a toothbrush! Now I want you to respect my work, and pay me for the effort.
What? You say I needed a sensible business plan first? Why would I need that, if you respect my work?
If you want something that will display content you want...
and somebody is selling one for just $50, then buy it from him. If he'd forgotten that it could play content from other sources
Re:Why? (Score:2)
I don't know about MILLIONS. Five maybe...
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? Maybe because it's extremely low-res, black and white, and nearly as expensive as small, portable, DVD-players will be in a short while. Plus, DVDs (or VCDs/SVCDs) are easy to make.
Why would you *want* to do anything with this?
Re:Why? (Score:3, Informative)
Why is it that whenever someone disagrees with the motives of a story on SlashDot, they have go
to extremes in what they perceive should be the punishment?
These guys are not doing anything too hurt Hasbro's ability to make money.
Even if they were, why should they go to jail?
I bet the Hasbro executives are quaking in their boots "Oh no, the geeks are trying to get at
our super secret mini-CD codec".
You are a twonk!
Work for Hasbro, do you?
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
a company is only going to make a product as useful as they have to to charge you as much as they can get away with. Lots of math is involved. Board meetings. Statistical analysis. This is the reason everything costs too much and sucks.
Now, lots of people out there devote their time and energy to making the things people paid way to much for work better. Whats wrong with that?
Re:Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
Either it IS flame bait, or you are an idiot.
And yes they are hurting Hasbro's ability to make money.
I doubt that, but for the sake of argument lets assume that is true. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Every time i go to the library I am hurting someone's ability to make money. Every time I loan something to a friend I am hurting someone's ability to make money. Every time I open a store and sell something I am competing with someone else and hurting their ability to make money. Every time I take a broken item, open it up and fix it my self, I am hurting someone else's ability to make money.
Anyone who bought a car has every right to lift the hood, look at it, and try to understand it. Anyone who bought a VideoNOW PVD every right to lift the hood, look at it, and try to understand it. They have every right to use teh player however they like. They can create their own content for it or even use it as a flowerpot. If they buy disks for it they have every right to read those disks in their computer or to use them as frisbies.
They wouldn't have made the CD format difficult to udnerstand and use if it wasn't part of their marketing plan.
I bought a product for my own reasons and I'll do whatever I like with it. I don't give a damn what THEIR PLAN was. Once I bought it I own it. If Gillette Razors gives away 5 cent razors with the business plan of selling disposable blades I am perfectly free to take the razor and either clean and re-use the disposable blades, or even to make my OWN blades to put in it. Or I can use them as paperweights. Once they have SOLD the product their plan is irrelevant.
Just because I have a business plan / marketing plan to sell SnoCones at the South Pole does not mean I have any right to make a profit doing so. There is no 'right to make a profit'. Hasbro's rights are not being infringed in any way whatsoever. It is YOU who wants to infringe the rights of the buyer.
-
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Hasbro has kind of a cool product. It's a portable video player for kids. It happens that their media is close enough to a publicly available format that they're more or less interchangeable.
Consider two things: first, geeks like to play. They want to know how the toys work. That was what doomed the CueCat from the start -- the device, by and large, was utterly useless to all but a small segment of the population, but it still had some technical interest. Therefore people were more than will
Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)
Unless you are posting to slashdot using your original IBM PC and a 300 baud Hayes modem you are a hypocrite.
Reverse Engineering has brought you most everything you use in your life, from your television to your sneakers.
Since reverse engineering is legal, neither criminal or civil penalties apply.
BTW, being sued does not lead to incarceration.
Re:Why? (Score:2)
It was before the DMCA. Now all anyone has to do, is claim that there is some form of even the most simply copyright protection built-in, and it is illegial to reverse-engineer it.
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Yes, but "such protection" can be ANYTHING at all. Something like the change in timing mentioned on the reverse engineering website could be considered copy protection. Using non-standard formats could be considered copyright protection.
In other words, anything even the slightest bit non-standard can be claimed as your method of cropyright protection, and be used along with the DMCA to prevent reve
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Perhaps because they are so impressed with the inventor's product that they want to be able to use it on their system of choice? Actually, from other posts this doesn't seem to qualify...but I can think of hundreds of programs I would buy if they would only work on Linux.
Re:Why? (Score:1)
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Re:Wake me... (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Give me 8cm DVD-R and GBA (Score:2)
You can pack quite a bit of video onto a 128MB SMC and the screen is nicer than the GBA.