Humorously Bad Web Hosting Policies 282
retard2112 writes "In the Terms of Service for pagecreators.net I found this about halfway through.
D. You agree not to post any type of review about Page Creators at any time anywhere on the web. This includes any statement good or bad. You understand you will be held liable for damages of no more than fifty-thousand dollars if a review is found and traced back to yourself. What is up with that?" I ought to make a Slashdot Terms of Service thing like that where I get to hold the dude who posts goat trolls all day from behind a law firm's firewall liable for $50k! Seriously tho', that's pretty nasty. Larry Ellison would be proud.
More Info (Score:4)
"ceased to operate"?? (Score:4)
Did they just get /.-ed or what?
-bluebomber
Interesting (Score:5)
Perhaps they don't want to be held to ransom. (Score:2)
However, while I don't like this policy, I still defend their right to pursue it. If you don't like their policy, don't do business with them.
There really isn't anything more to be said.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
Pagecreators is a SCAM! (Score:5)
PageCreators is run by an 18yr old who is scamming people of thousands of dollars, by charging $1/kb of traffic. In some cases, he has falsified logs to show higher traffic. One person had such a small page, that they would have needed over 800,000 visitors to generate the traffic that Page Creators charged their credit card for.
The punk who runs it has a lawyer (or someone pretending to be a lawyer) who routinely sends threatening letters to sites that post bad reviews.
What That Policy Aims to Stop ... (Score:3)
Google Cache of TOS (Score:4)
Google's Cache of their TOS [google.com]
the first rule of Page Creators (Score:5)
Posted about this already (Score:4)
What I found extremely interesting was that I couldn't find the terms of service anywhere. I actually signed up for an account (old CC number, so it wouldn't go thru) but at no time was I actually even offered the option of seeing what I was agreeing to.
The Wired article pointed out that for 'unlimited' bandwidth, you were actually charged $1/k for traffic over a sustained transfer rate of
I guess their point was yes, it's unlimited bandwidth, but that doesn't mean you'll only pay $24.95/month (or whatever the rate was).
I was very surprised the guy lasted as long as he did, charging people THOUSANDS of dollars, then defending himself by saying they didn't 'understand the technical nature of hosting', etc. Wouldn't the banks get suspicious? You have 200 charges of $24.95/month for 18 months, then 3 charges of $10,000, then hundreds more $24.95s. I think that SHOULD raise some eyebrows, just like my CC usage causes calls from the CC company occasionally - "you've never charged anything over $200 in the past 10 years we've known you, and you just charged $10,000 in 5 different states in 10 minutes. Is everything OK?"
PageCreators has bigger problems than bad TOS (Score:3)
In a similar note, the last company I worked for had as part of their NDA a nondisparagement clause. "You agree not to talk smack about The Company, its business practices, its officers, etc etc". Anybody know how enforecable such an agreement is, especially for people who are no longer with the company? Seems questionable to me.
Another *interesting* point in their TOS (Score:5)
From Pagecreator's TOS:
C. Copywritten Files
1. Files found on Page Creator's servers which are found to be copywritten will be removed and the account cancelled immediately without prior notification to the customer. All copyright owners will be notified accordingly.
Notice how they don't say anything about only removing files that illegally violate copyright! Any piece of work is immediately copyrighted when the author creates it. This means that each and every page that is on Pagecreators site should be removed according to their TOS. (The funny thing is that it looks like they've complied with this by taking down their entire site.) ;P
Ladies and gentlemen... (Score:2)
The first ever Slashdotting that has resulted in complete and total collapse of a company.
Oooh! Gotta go report it at FuckedCompany!
From an earlier Wired story (Score:4)
"Usage: 9057kbp/s, Debited: $9057, Due $0. Please let us know if you have any questions about these charges. Thank you for your business!"
His wife e-mailed the company to let them know there had been a mistake.
Page Creators responded that the charges were in accordance with the contract "$1 per 1kbp/s" in "usage."
McCabe ran the traffic tracking program provided for the website. He couldn't make out anything about Kbps, but he did see that the site had received a grand total of 48 hits all year.
After subsequent requests for clarifying documentation failed to bear fruit, the McCabes informed Page Creators that they had disputed the charge with their credit card company and threatened to report the company for fraud.
PC's response:
"Do as you wish, we have proof of your usage and will take it to the maximum extent needed. Check with the Attorney General of Minnesota, you will see our point. We will also provide Visa/MasterCard with the proper documentation. There is a fee of $150 per disputed charge which will be handled in small claims court in Minnesota. We will immediately file claim for suit if you dispute these charges with your credit card company."
Others report receiving similar threats of litigation when they questioned charges.
McCabe was incensed.
"This kid literally dared me to call the attorney general because he thinks he's untouchable. I've now made it my personal hobby to get him brought to justice."
...
Travis Gochenaur, a 23-year-old from Wisconsin who says Page Creators attempted to hit him with over $7,000 in illegitimate charges, wonders why the company hasn't been shut down. Last April, Gochenaur signed up for PC's "monthly special" that offered Web hosting for just $200 a year. In June, Gochenaur says he received a cryptic "invoice" from Kruchten saying he was being charged $1,000 for
"It felt like there was a little kid using my credit card like a candy jar," he said.
After gathering his evidence, Gochenaur called the Alexandria police and sent them his evidence. Eventually, they informed him that they were passing the case on the state attorney general. Four months later, he can't believe that Page Creators is still operating.
So Wired couldn't touch them. But fifteen seconds into their Slashdotting, they're off the web and probably going to be sucessfully sued by the people whose webpages they are no longer able to serve. Interesting.
Steven
An RBL for NetPirates (Score:2)
Wouldn't it be cool if we could blacklist people like this to the extent that they could never do business on the net again? Never register a domain, never host another page.. haha would serve people like him and those damn Microsoft nazis right. "What MS is charging $800 bucks for Windows 3000? Eh put 'em in the list!"
Ahh visions of heaven dancing through my head
Re:You mean this goat troll? (Score:2)
I kiss you!
Manipulating his customers not to tell? (Score:2)
Re:Perhaps they don't want to be held to ransom. (Score:5)
I'm not sure I agree with that. Sure, I say to not do business with them (especially as it seems they have "ceased to operate) but I am also not sure how legal that is. One thing that the person that wrote this article mentions is fair use, which is protection of the consumers' rights when dealing with companies. Fiar use has been trampled on quite a bit recently by big businesses who like your point of view.
To take your logic further, if I sell televisions I can put something in a contract for my customers to sign that if they complain about the TV once I get to kill them. This would be illegal, even if noone had bought a TV from me. I'm not a lawyer so I can't give all the correct terms, but you can see that it would be clearly wrong.
The reason that it is not right, or legal for a company to say you can't review them if you are a customer is that it could infringe on your free speech. There are limits to what you can do against a company. You can't use their logo or give information that may be confidential or proprietary to their business if you agreed not to previously. However, simply saying, "This webhost company sucks ass and gave me bad service" should not be able to get you in trouble. Also, if the company wished, why would they stop at reviews? Wouldn't contacting the Better Business Bureau be considered a breach of the terms of service as well? There are limits set up both ways, to protect the consumer and the businesses. Unfortunately the consumer's rights are going down the toilet as big businesses lie to us and the politicians representing us so they can get more of an advantage to take more of our money.
Pagecreators.net's Service Agreement (Score:5)
SERVICES AGREEMENT I. Mission Statement A. Page Creators provides Internet World Wide Web page hosting. Page Creators has certain legal and ethical responsibilities regarding the use of its servers and equipment involved in these services. B. Page Creator's general policy is to act as a provider of Internet presence. Page Creators has specific ethical concerns regarding the use of its computers as detailed below. C. Page Creators guarantees to respond to any and all e-mails regarding any question or problem you have with our service no later than 36 hours after said e-mail is sent. This guarantee does not apply to lost deliveries due to outside network problems. II. 99.9% Uptime Guarantee A. Service Level - Page Creators endeavors to have the content of your web site available for http access by any part in the world 99.9% of the time. B. Coverage - This 99.9% uptime guarantee applies to any Page Creators client in good financial standing with Page Creators at the time of a service outage. C. Credits 1. In the event that your web site is not available for more than 99.9% of the time, Page Creators will give you a credit on the following month's service fee as follows: a. For any shared hosting client, such credit shall be retroactive to the first day of the month in which the access was denied, and shall be as calculated below and as measured 24 hours a day in a calendar month, with the maximum credit not to exceed the monthly service charge for the affected month. Page Creators offers this guarantee to every month-to-month customer. b. Monthly Uptime Credit. 95% to 99.8% shall govern a 25% credit. 90% to 94.9%% shall govern a 50% credit. 89.9% or below shall govern a 100% credit. 2. In order for you to receive a credit on your account, you must request the credit within ten (10) days after you experienced the down time. a. Your request must be made by sending an electronic mail message to noc@pagecreators.net. b. For security purposes, the body of this message must contain your account user name, the dates and times of the unavailability of your web site, and such other customer identification requested by Page Creators. 3. Credits will be applied within ten (10) days of your credit request. As a courtesy to our month-to-month customers, an in-house credit to your account shall be your sole and exclusive remedy in the event of an outage. D. Restrictions on Credits - Credits shall not be provided to you in the event that you have any outage resulting from the following: 1. Scheduled maintenance as posted from time to time at Page Creators; 2. Your behavior or the performance or failure of your equipment, facilities or applications; 3. Circumstances beyond Page Creator's reasonable control, including, without limitation, acts of any governmental body, war, insurrection, sabotage, embargo, fire, flood, strike or other labor disturbance, interruption of or delay in transportation, delay in telecommunications or third party services including backbone provider, DNS propagation, domain name registration / transfer, failure of third party software or hardware or inability to obtain raw materials, supplies, or power used in or equipment needed for provision of your web site; or 4. A client breaking any item in Page Creator's this agreement causing a machine to fail as a result. III. Miscellaneous Provisions A. Acceptable Bandwidth Use and Unacceptable Overuse Clause 1. Bandwidth is a term used to describe the total traffic your web site and other services associated with the use of your website consume. 2. We do not monitor traffic until you surpass the specified amount with your package at the time of purchase in one months period of time. This does not apply to provision III, A, 3. 3. In the event you consume more than 30kbp/s of sustained peak traffic within any 24 hour period of time, for any month, a fee of $1 per 1kbp/s will be billed to your account via the payment method used upon sign up. 4. You agree to pay Page Creators this $1 per 1kbp/s fee for bandwidth overages and you understand this fee is not refundable under any circumstance. 5. WARNING- You also understand that wusage statistics are not accurate enough for you to determine your own total bandwidth usage, as it does not include the following: e-mail transfer, httpd or ftp downloads from webpage, anonymous FTP downloads, CGI scripts, Real Audio, Real Video, Telnet, and SSH, as well as other items. 6. If you have any questions on this policy, contact us prior to signing up. 7. All customers who occur bandwidth overages will be e-mailed a receipt regarding the overages to the e-mail address provided upon sign up. 8. Client paying by credit card will be billed prior to invoice being sent. 9. Clients paying by credit card agree to accept charges for bandwidth overages. B. Background Running Programs 1. We may allow programs to run continually in the background. These are considered on a one-to-one basis and an extra charge will be incurred based on system resources used and operational maintenance needed. 2. You must notify Page Creators prior to the installation of any background running programs. The final consent and total fee must be arranged. C. New Domain Name Registration 1. The customer who registers for services is the legal owner of any domain name registered. 2. Page Creators reserves the right to seize any domain name at any time for the following reasons: a. Placing dispute with customer's credit card institution on any payment debited by Page Creators; and b. Violation of any provision of this service agreement. D. Disk Storage 1. The intention of Page Creators is to provide a large space to serve web documents, not to provide an off-site storage area for electronic files. 2. All (90%) of your web pages must be 'linked' with files (.gif,
Another thing that will never stand up in court. (Score:3)
This is potential fun... ;) (Score:4)
(This business idea has been patented with little trouble; as long as I use lynx (and the keyboard), I don't violate the infamous one-click patent...)
Re:Pursuit of happiness != pursuit of criticism (Score:2)
(a) Your employer may not offer you a job for less than the minimum wage
(b) Your landlors may not rent you an apartment in the northeast without working heat
The example here may be an example of a "shrinkwrap" license that we all know and love. Shrinkwrap licenses may be determined to be unenforceable and invalid. That may end up being the case with PageCreators. We shall see.
-Dean
Uhhh ... (Score:2)
Sure, you can put any nonsensical thing you want into a contract. It doesn't mean that such terms are enforceable. I could insert terms into a contract that give me the right to administer a severe beating to any signing party who pisses me off, but guess what would happen if I demanded a court enforce that? I'd like to see this company just try to get one of their $50,000 judgements for the simple act of posting a review on the net. The velocity with which it was tossed out of court would create quite the breeze.
Re:Pagecreators is a SCAM! (Score:2)
What we should be holding him up as is an example that hiding ludicrous terms in the fine print doesn't make them legal. And I'm not just talking about the prices here. Fortunately, Minnesota (where PageCreators is based) has a fine set of consumer protection laws that might help here, if it's their jurisdiction. Mebbe if one of the victims was from Minnesota, the attorney general's office might be able to help. Anyone?
Re:Pagecreators is a SCAM! (Score:2)
--
Re:Another *interesting* point in their TOS (Score:2)
It gets even worse: According to the TOS, they can seize your domain name for *any* violation of the TOS.
Re:Pagecreators is a SCAM! (Score:3)
Using that math, he would only be required to generate 1/1000th of that, or 800, visitors, which is well within the realm of possibility.
Ummm...
Last time I checked, a bit was only 1/8 byte, not 1/1000. By the math, he would still have needed to get 100,000 visitors, which is not within the realm of possibility.
Anyway, do you actually think that people would pay a lawyer to read every damn click-license that thye come accross on the web. I think not. It seems to me this kid is trying out as much legalese and restrictions as he can, in the hopes that one of his schemes will work and he'll get a bunch of money.
Re:Interesting.... (Score:2)
other sites on the same machine are operating perfectly (try woodyrussell.com)
-dk
Re:"ceased to operate"?? (Score:5)
Google [google.com]
cache of their contact us page
Toll free sales :
U.S.&nbs p;
1-877-336-4472
INTERN. 320-762-7003
Toll free tech support: 888-382-4994
Fax US and INTERNATIONAL: 320-762-9060
Toll Free huh? As in he get's billed for the long distance time?
I think I have a few sales questions for him...
-ct
Oooo, very cute (Score:3)
So their doing of scheduled maintenance makes you not qualify for credit :) tres cute :)
$1/kb/sec.... NOT $1/kb... big diff! (Score:2)
No. He's charging $1/b/sec, NOT $1/kb. Big difference! :)
From their TOS, cached on Google [google.com]:http://www.bootyproject.org [bootyproject.org]
Re:That's just dangerous... (Score:2)
No... A good review would mean that it was good. Something that would get a bad review, as determined by the lawyers, no doubt, would get no review at all.
Think about it... Your favorite PC mag would have as one of their cover lines -
"The top 5 video cards whose reviews we could print!"
You'd look inside, find out that the card you were looking at wasn't listed, and not buy it, as obviously there were 'issues' with it, and the review couldn't be printed.
Personnally, I think that any company that has to resort to those kind of tactics to keep away bad press has larger issues to worry about.
Suspiciously in the TOS (Score:2)
Re:Slashdotters should take responsibility (Score:2)
for instance, the so called 'slashdot effect' is dangerously similar to the DDOS attacks of recent occurance. Couple this with the large number of "dot comms" that are imploding left and right, and considering the notion that during this startup lifecycle phase many of these companies fall into the hands of the mean green litigating machine that the money and lawyers are eager for, it is a wonder that we don't pick up more lawsuits over toppling these medium sized servers.
This story is a perfect example, a foul EULA, obviously crafted by an aggressive attourney, their hatred of negative press and a slashdotting of their service, it seems obvious that trouble is near. One quick glance at the referer data will make it all so clear even to the simplest fool: slashdot causes server outages when they post a story. Couple this with the editorial shortcommings and faulty reporting standards so prevelent on slashdot, and the case of negligence that could ensue would be entirely reasonable. WATCH OUT TACO, THEY ARE COMING TO GET YOU.
:::
Re:This is potential fun... ;) (Score:3)
$ telnet pagecreators.net
Trying 209.123.201.131...
Connected to pagecreators.net.
Escape character is '^]'.
Red Hat Linux release 6.1 (Cartman)
Kernel 2.2.12-20 on an i686
login:
Somewhat ironic.
- Sam
Fraud detector (patent applied for) (Score:4)
Re:Pagecreators is a SCAM! (Score:3)
Not only that, but the terms weren't even in the fine print. Customers complained that the contract mysteriously changed, to add a 'subject to change without notice' and 'price is +$1/kb when usage is above 300kb'.
In the wired article, most customers didn't read the small print. But those who did, and signed hard copies, report that those clauses weren't on the contracts they signed.
this kid is living....... (Score:2)
Re:Pagecreators.net's Service Agreement (Score:2)
Um, how do you know if someone has surpassed the "specified amount" unless you measure that amount?
This whole TOS is just whacky-screwball-zany. And I love the part about credits when people don't get 99.9% uptime... since the site is slashdotted, I guess some credits are gonna roll, huh? Lessee, 0.1% of a 31 day month would be, umm, less than 45 minutes. How long has it been down?
I almost forgot... (Score:2)
MPAA, RIAA Claim Credit for Pagecreators Contract (Score:5)
The TOS agreement, which forbids any criticism of the webhosting company, was hailed by Jack Valenti as "a sterling example of the bold future available to all content providers."
"It was a long shot actually," said Valenti. "We were getting pretty pissed off about all the flak we were getting about DeCSS- and Napster-related lawsuits, and so we were just blue-skying one day about what to do. The idea came up, and since everyone was coked up at the time we just went with it, you know? We found a pissant little webhosting service, offered the contract, and waited to see how far it would go."
"We had no idea it would be so successful," he added. "But we're definitely happy it did."
A spokesman for the two agencies would not speculate further on where the agreement might be used next. When asked just how far punishment for criticism would go, he replied cryptically, "Just watch us."
Free Software Foundation programmer and founder Richard M. Stallman could not be reached for comment. Said a source close to him, "He's desperately grepping all the click-wrap agreements on his hard drive."
hahahah (Score:2)
this guy was a fucking idiot! he had no place in at all running a linux box, let alone a web hosting business. i can't begin to even recall how many countless hours i spent fixing his scripts, programs, etc etc b/c he was too dumb to figure it out and i was "required to" by my job. (i fucking hated that w/ a passion - i can't stand it when i have to clean up other ppl's fuck-ups).
i'm surprised that it actually took this long for this to come up. i remember getting phone calls from his customers where i worked complaining about his service and the fact that he was never there.
ahh - if only this had happenned to the company i worked for. they are as big a set of idiots (well, most - i don't want to lump everyone into that category) as this guy is.
Re:Another *interesting* point in their TOS (Score:3)
Verbatim? That won't stand up to any courtroom
scrutiny! "Copywritten" means "written by a professional writer for advertising or publicity copy".
"copyright" or "copyrighted"means the exclusive legal right to reproduce, publish, and sell the matter and form (as of a literary, musical, or artistic work)
Contracts and government (Score:2)
- ...I do not want to see issues such as this decided by the government. I would like to see these issues decided by the common sense of the masses.
This is a great idea!Unfortunately, we need a way to distill and enforce this common sense. Sure, "market forces" seem like a tempting answer, but market forces only reflect the common sense of the market, not the commoen sense of the masses. As others have pointed out, a killer-for-hire service may be supported by the marketplace, but is obviously against the "common sense of the masses."
Maybe we could elect representatives who would be answerable to various segments of the population. These representatives could be granted enforcement powers -- powers they hold only as long as they stay in office, something they can only do by faithfully representing the "will" of their segment.
We could call it "Democracy."
Actually, on second thought, it wouldn't work. It would require the constant participation of the population, obviously too much to ask. Instead, the "masses" will call for some kind of new system that promotes their interests but doesn't require any effort from them whatsoever. They'll get what they deserve, at that point.
The kid is editing as we read... (Score:2)
Have you ever printed a Software License? (Score:2)
Steven
Credit cards are the key to scams ... (Score:5)
Whenever you give your credit card number, you're handing over your wallet and telling the merchant to go ahead and serve himself. Although the credit card companies pretend that they regulate the merchants making charges, the scope for monkey business is astronomous.
The most dangerous merchants are, surprisingly, the bigger ones, like telephone companies and other utilities, and these are pushing for everybody to use credit cards.
I'm trying, however, to stop using credit cards altogether.
Since I live in Europe, and I'm quite lucky that most European consumers (and most smaller merchants too, because all transactions are registered, and handed down to the tax authorities) share this deep resentment for credit cards with me.
The more people use credit cards, the more I will be forced to use a credit cards. In the end, I'm not even going to be able to get a phone service, unless "I hand over my wallet".
Therefore, I would like to urge everybody to refrain from using credit cards as much as you can.
Re:"ceased to operate"?? (Score:2)
His point was that toll free calls are charged to the operator of the line. He'll keep calling it, and the guy who owns the line will get charged for the calls.
Re:"ceased to operate"?? (Score:2)
happy holidays
Running redhat 6.1... (Score:2)
Red Hat Linux release 6.1 (Cartman)
Kernel 2.2.12-20 on an i686
login:
Not that it means anything. Just something I noticed while trying to find anything except the ceased to operate notice.
learn, learn, learn! (Score:5)
Re:Google Cache of TOS (Score:2)
P.S.: Someone please tell him "kilobits per second" is abbreviated Kb/s or Kbps but not kbp/s (kilobits per per second?-)
Re:This is potential fun... ;) (Score:2)
Good idea, though.
--
This is meaningless! (Score:2)
This entire contract is meaningless.
Section 1 and the uptime guarantee can be thrown out entirely. 99.9% over what period of time?? Generally, Uptime guarantees are yearly, but this must be stated. And then further reading provides that he is not responsable if A) There is Scheduled Maint. B) The downtime is due to a "Third-Party Hardware or Software" problem. OS crash?? Not our problem. Blown power supply?? We can't be held responsable. Heck, he's not even on the hook to refund your money if they cut his power off for non-payment.
He does not define the parties involved. "You" as it is used denotes noone. And "We"?? No corporate name that you are entering an agreement with??
- (Police: Did you get the name of the mugger?
- Victim: Yes, his name was "me".
- Police: "Me"??
- Victim: That must be his name, he said "Give "me" all your money!"
3. Credits will be applied within ten (10) days of your credit request. As a courtesy to our month-to-month customers, an in-house credit to your account shall be your sole and exclusive remedy in the event of an outage.The above section states that if you are MtM, and your site is down for an entire month (for resons not shot down earlier) you will recieve a credit fo the next month of crappy service only. No refund check would ever be cut. This is courtesy.
Anyone who signed this deserves to lose their second car.....
Hmmmmm..... Maybe I should get into web hosting.....
~Hammy
Has any lawyer ever done this before? (Score:5)
IX. Disclaimer
D. Page Creators reserves the right to revise its policies at any time without notice. It is the customer's responsibility to monitor pagecreators.net/contract for policy changes.
Excuse me? It's my responsibility to monitor changes in a contract? BZZZZ! Wrong. You sign and agree to a contract, that's legit. But to create a clause that says NOT ONLY that the contract can be modified without notice BUT ALSO that one must adhere to the contract reguardless of whether or not the participant/s agreed to it without proper closure is not legal BY ANY MEANS.
One signs the TOS agreement. Legal. TOS agreement modified. Legal. Direct or written notification of change in TOS. Legal. (Why do you think banks, insurance agencies, credit card companies, and all other businesses write letters to you giving "Notification" over some business transaction?) If participant is not happy with TOS modification, the service can be terminated. Legal. But to modify a TOS without express notification to participants is not.
No doubt this is a scam.
Page Creators really did go after critics! (Score:2)
The second rule of Page Creators... (Score:3)
Re:This is meaningless! (Score:2)
Did anyone ever, in fact, "sign" this contract?
If you move out we'll slam you with another bill (Score:4)
5. A fee of $200 will be applied to your account if Page Creators does not receive proper cancellation request yet you move your site to another provider. This fee is not refundable. You give Page Creators authorization to charge your credit card this amount (if applicable payment method).
HAHA that's the funniest piece of crap I've seen in a long time. Not even aitcom nor 9netave can beat that!
*** Where he lives *** (Score:3)
His fax number listed on whois.net reverse lookup is registered to:
Rose Johnson
105 Linden Ave
Alexandria, MN 56308
Phone: 320-762-9060
Re:Another *interesting* point in their TOS (Score:3)
>I wonder what the legality of a term like
>copywritten is. It's obvious that he meant
>copyrighted, but how would a court of law
>interpret a contract with such terms?
Depends on the state. In Texas, a judge would,
or would direct a jury to, strike that clause from the agreement and not consider it germane
to the case.
One invalid clause in a contract does not invalidate the contract, only that one clause.
That means for instance, if a landlord has put something illegal or unenforceable in the lease,
it doesn't mean you don't have to pay rent or change the smoke alarm battery, etc.
On the other hand, if it were "obvious" in intent, and the parties both agreed that the
word "copywritten" was construed to mean "copyrighted", then the clause could stand.
it would be funny except it doesn't make sense... (Score:2)
dynamo
Re:Another thing that will never stand up in court (Score:3)
so much for freedom of speech and freedom to choose.
Such as the freedom not to buy it in the first place? (checks) No, you've still got that. Vote with your wallet.
--
Re:Pagecreators is a SCAM! (Score:3)
That'll teach me to try and post intelligently when the Coke machine at the office is broken. ;-)
Wait A Sec... (Score:2)
I wouldn't be surprised, esp. since it appears that pagecreators fails to date their EULAs, and feels that is the user's responsibility to look for changed contractual provisions.
If anyone has the full text of the pagecreators EULA that contains the clause attempting to constrain negative reviews, please post it or email it to me. I'm collecting egregious EULAs/ TOS's for a page on UCITA [cptech.org].
Thanks.
Sincerely, Vergil
Vergil Bushnell
Re:Oooo, very cute (Score:3)
So, if you piss them off (like keep calling for tech support, as mentioned in one of the complaints), they can just shut off your service, and it doesn't get covered by the 99.9% agreement.
Cute.
-Jeff
Re:learn, learn, learn! (Score:2)
Bank cards are BAD ideas. They were introduced so that banks didn't have to be liable, and so that they could get their hands on your money instantly, without letting you learn the 1 months' interest.
Re:learn, learn, learn! (Score:2)
While the idea of a dedicated debit card account isn't bad (to be convenient you would have to have some kind of automatic transfer set up if you will be getting recurring charges), it is generally a spectacularly bad idea to use a normal (your main) debit card account. Fraud on a credit card is a hassle but you aren't out any cash immediately. Fraud on a debit card is a nightmare until the bank decides to credit it back. Same goes for ACH transactions.
JCS
Re:Posted about this already (Score:2)
One time I spent 1700$ with 8thstreet.com and in 30 minutes both the bank security department and bank fraud department called.
My only guess would be that he must be familiar with credit practicies, and the recurring charges have something to do with it -- ie after 6 monthly charges they don't check ANY from that vendor ...
He's also playing numbers -- he probably dosen't expect to collect most of the 10,000$ fees ... but he probably collects a few -- and he's still making 25$ a month from each user when his DSL probably costs him 50$ a month ..
What disapoints me most is that people are so scared of the legal system that this guy can do this at all ... says more about the legal system then anything else
Re:Google Cache of TOS (Score:2)
Speaking of which.. How can I agree to his TOS if he is too young to enter into the hosting contract anyway? According to a blurb on the Minnesota Bar Association's page, he is unable to enter into any contracts (His parents may, on his behalf). In addition, he shouldn't be able to charge against your credid card..
Re:Pagecreators is a SCAM! (Score:2)
Actually, in section III.A.3, guy is asking for:I am completely clueless what a "kbp/s" is, or how "sustained peak traffic" might be measured.
He may mean something like "an average of 30 kbit per second over a 24 hour period", but that really would mean about 324 megabytes in a 24 hour period. Of course, there's no way to know exactly what he does mean, and he does say "wusage statistics are not accurate enough for you to determine your own total bandwidth", so its not at all clear what tools he's using to measure bandwith, or what exactly they are supposed to measure, or how they measure it.
Re:Posted about this already (Score:2)
>scared of the legal system that this guy can do
>this at all
The only legal system our friend in Minnesota needs to be scared of is the one that sends you
to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for credit card fraud (a federal offense). This isn't going to be a few civil suits from a few people who were overcharged. It should be criminal prosecution for several felonies. I believe our friend is 18. For his parents' sake, I hope
they are not a party to the merchant agreement
where they deposit the credit card reciepts.
If it can be shown that they "knew or should have known" that fraudulent activities were taking place, they might get to go to the little
room with the metal toilet in the middle of the floor too.
Credit card companies do not like being systematically taken advantage of. I don't understand what you think this "says about the legal system."
The system works. It puts people in jail for stealing money from other people.
Re:Google Cache of TOS (Score:2)
it's one of the parents.
Re:This is potential fun... ;) (Score:3)
Someone pointed out that all of the machines in the domain appear to be running default-install 6.1 release with all the default services enabled.
This has to scream 'crack me!' If he doesn't bother turning off telnet or at least customizing the welcome message, there's little doubt he has kept up with security patches.
Good reason not to have automatic charging. (Score:2)
If you're going to pay recurring charges, pay them monthly by check or money order or pay a year in advance if its cheaper or more convienent. But don't supply your credit card for automatic debits, and DEFINITELY don't do it with your bank account. Even if the company you're dealing with is honest, that doesnt' mean they can't make mistakes.
-Restil
Cute... (Score:4)
------------------
Sure you are.
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Roy
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 4:40 PM
Subject: Terms of service request
Can you please send me a copy of your terms of service. I'm looking for a web provider.
--
Re:Perhaps they don't want to be held to ransom. (Score:2)
> that they wish to control their image to the best of their ability.
Or the guy is taking UCITA out for a spin to see if it will let him run over folks in his state.
The last thing any person of little to no morals wants is attention brought to her/his activities. This guy, at best, is pushing the envelope of what he can get away with. At worst, it's a clear sign that he's gonna grow up to be another rip-off artist. No wonder his parents have changed their phone number & claim they don't know where he is.
Geoff
Site down, so CALL HIM!!! (Score:5)
Since his page is somehow down now and it seems that he doesn't answer email, I looked him up [uswestdex.com]. If you're as angry as I am, send him a note, or give him a call. He's listed under his parent's number (he's only 18)
Kruchten Paul & Debbie... (320) 762-0538
1213 Lark St Alexandria MN 56308
Be nice though.
Re:Perhaps they don't want to be held to ransom. (Score:3)
>grow up to be another rip-off artist
He'll have to, if he expects to survive in prison.
Re:Pagecreators is a SCAM! (Score:2)
I think a kid with a lawyer is much more dangerous than a kid with a gun. Think about it: a young, imaginative mind, thinking up new ways to hack the legal system, with his pet lawyer by his side. I wouldn't want to meet them in a dark alley. At least, if you're being held at gunpoint, you can get away by emptying your wallet. The lawyer/kid combo will empty your wallet and say, "okay, now that that's out of the way, what can I get from you?"
Re:Credit cards are the key to scams ... (Score:2)
It wasn't so long ago [slashdot.org] that Slashdot had an article on one-time credit cards. I don't know if this is the best answer to the problem of fraudulent use or overcharging, but it is one solution.
--
That could be very dangerous. (Score:5)
Penguins with perfect credit ratings. The Linux Pimp [thelinuxpimp.com]
Re:"ceased to operate"?? (Score:2)
This is very good advice, it's served me well down the years, and I impart it all to you now.
Turtle
Get em back - really /. them. (Score:2)
echo "."
sleep 1
done
He still will have to pay for his bandwidth too.
Re:"ceased to operate"?? (Score:3)
but the server still answers up nicely to my ping tool.
See?
# - IP address - Host name --- Round trip time
1 - 209.123.201.131 www.pagecreators.net 152 ms
2 - 209.123.201.131 www.pagecreators.net 137 ms
3 - 209.123.201.131 www.pagecreators.net 127 ms
Maybe their http port crashed. Could somebody check this out?
;-)
But we could always bring it to the attention of their service provider:
IP block lookup for 209.123.201.131
whois -h whois.arin.net 209.123.201.131
Net Access Corporation (NETBLK-NAC-NETBLK02)
110 South Jefferson Road
Newton, NJ 07860
Netname: NAC-NETBLK02
Netblock: 209.123.0.0 - 209.123.255.255
Maintainer: NAC
Coordinator:
....
Pavely, Ryan (RP2938-ARIN)
abuse@nac.net
800-net-me36 (FAX) 973-590-5080 (FAX) 201-983-0453
Record last updated on 10-Sep-1999.
Database last updated on 27-Dec-2000
18:20:42 EDT.
Re:Uhhh ... (Score:2)
All of a sudden a probable slam-dunk becomes quite non-trivial.
IANAL [cknow.com] -- but I like pissing them off.
`ø,,ø!
Re:All hosting vendors do this. (Score:2)
That's not what this says. This says if you HAVE any outage you get no credit. I'd be inclined to take it literally: words like 'any' are peculiarly potent things in a contract. I read this as saying, if there is ever scheduled maintenance you're out of luck: you have outage as a result of scheduled maintenance, hence you get no credit.
Granted, there are much better reasons to slam this loony scam artist kid, but perverse contractual terms are sort of a hobby of mine and I love the twists in logic that you find :)
MSN, Yahoo - All have the same TOS change policy (Score:3)
If this term is a scam then most internet companies use the same scam of assigning you the responsibility of checking for modifications to the agreement and that your continued use is your consent to the changes.
I've included excerpts from yahoo and msn but you can find the others by clicking on the TOS link that are at the bottom of most major internet sites
MSN: [msn.com]
Yahoo: [yahoo.com]Call me mad ... (Score:3)
... but I found this part of their contract as a rather good contract clause:
If just every company could have that kind of spam policy, I would feel rather happy
Re:From an earlier Wired story (Score:2)
How could they be slashdotted? They're capable of serving out pages at over 9,047 kbp/s!
Re:Pagecreators.net's Service Agreement (Score:2)
Which begs the question, how do they know if you've surpassed the amount allowed, if they don't start monitoring until you surpass it? A little chicken-and-egg? :-)
Re:PageCreators has bigger problems than bad TOS (Score:2)
> for people who are no longer with the company? Seems questionable to me.
It's in proportion to just how much money the company has. If the company is Microsoft, & you signed an NDA concerning anything with them (the caterers for billg's wedding had to sign an NDA -- sheesh!), they might hunt you down to the ends of the earth, find you, & send you to the jail of their choice.
If you're the teenage scumbag of this company, who's on the run from the credit card companies, the BBB, & some less-than-motivated state & federal law enforcement officers, you might get a call from his lawyer on your answering machine -- if the scumbag happened to make his monthly payment -- in cash.
Geoff
GOOGLE! (Score:2)
Google's cache of PageCreators [google.com]
Re:Credit cards are the key to scams ... (Score:2)
- "Check by phone"? What sort of crap is that? I'm glad there is no such thing in my country!
I'm sure they'll have it in your country, too, as soon as they have phones.Re:learn, learn, learn! (Score:2)
Re:Pagecreators is a SCAM! (Score:2)
If the contract changes, there must be new consideration, roughly defined as a legal benefit and burden for both parties. Since the new terms are not only oppressive, but imply no new benefit to the customers, the new contract is invalid. Not only that, but the customers, because of a change in the terms of the contract, would have to resign the contract if they were to agree to the new terms.
What he's doing is wrong (fraud), and he can be sued for punitive damages. Think that $76,000 wired mentioned is alot? That's just the tip of the iceburg.
I.A.N.A. Contract L., so anyone who knows more about this than I please feel free to correct me.
Re:Backup Was Made (Score:2)
Doh... the address didn't translate so well. Try heading here.
http://www.pagecreators.net/secure/ [pagecreators.net]
--
Rod!
Re:ATTENTION MODERATORS (Score:2)
`ø,,ø!
The clause about "background scripts" was stolen (Score:2)
From the WestHost TOS:
(http://www.westhost.com/policy.html) [westhost.com]
"We may allow programs to run continually in the background. These are considered on a one-to-one basis and an extra charge will be incurred based on system resources used and operational maintenance needed."
From the Page Creators TOS:
(Google cached version [google.com])
"We may allow programs to run continually in the background. These are considered on a one-to-one basis and an extra charge will be incurred based on system resources used and operational maintenance needed."
Re:Uhhh ... (Score:2)
One of the tactics of a good scammer is to muddy the waters enough that a legal attack would get mired down in the details. (This would include things like making your teenaged son the front man for the operation. [anybody have any details on the parents??]). It raises the cost of the battle beyond the probable returns -- this would prevent an actual pursuit by anybody who's not more interested in revenge than getting his/her money back (happily, there appear to be a couple of victims like that in this case).
`ø,,ø!
Re:From an earlier Wired story (Score:2)
Steven