Is Early Exposure To Computers Good For Kids? 32
dmatos asks: "I share a house with a family. One son is 13 years old, and has been playing with computers for his entire life. However, that's all he's been doing, is playing computer games. Recently he was given the chance of getting a new computer, and the family asked for my help in choosing it. While talking with this boy, I found out that he didn't even know the difference between RAM and HDD, despite over 5 years exposure to computers and being in grade 8. Later, he had trouble installing his favourite games because the GUI installation programs started talking about things like drivers etc. and he was worried about continuing. How beneficial is early exposure to computers for today's youth, considering what most of them use it for? Are there any programs/books that you can recommend for someone who spends a lot of time playing on them, but hasn't the slightest clue as to how they work? And do you think that early exposure is overrated?" While I'm all for getting kids to use computers at an early age, even if it's just to play games or write a paper, I wonder if it's necessary for a child in the 8th grade to know the difference between RAM and a hard drive. Wouldn't it be better to train them on the basic use of the machines and have them get the details later in their education?
What bothers me... (Score:1)
Computer or Console? (Score:2)
The way I see it is that if I would have had a computer of my own while growing up I wouldn't have wasted as much of my time with the console machines (I never even had a C-64 for crying out loud!).
Kids will be kids, and although there are the exceptional few who will inquire as to how the thing really works, most are just there for the bells and whistles. At least if they use a computer then they will get some exposure, even if it's just being familiar with the thing. If they are inclined to actually get into computers at a deeper level then that will come on it's own - if the boy you are talking about doesn't like installation now, he'll figure it out when he realizes that it's something he'll have to learn to keep playing new games, and if he doesn't want to learn, then maybe computers just aren't his thing *gasp*! The only one who will lose in that case are the parents who bought him the $3000 gaming machine that he lost interest in.
So in the end, I'd have to say that the exposure is the main thing, even if they don't pick up on it for whatever reasons, at least they're still having fun and the opportunity exists for them to go further into computing.
End Users and complexity (Score:1)
This is an end user with a television. I would feel different about a college student seeking a comp sci degree or a Sysadmin. If we assume that not everyone in the world will enter the base profession of most
However it does point out the ever present concern of complexity in computing. Why should he have to understand what a driver is or what a hard drive does unless it is germane to the task at hand? Why do these things continue to be germane to "simple" tasks? While I like to understand how these things I look forward to when it will no longer be "necessary" to getting my job done.
Re:Computer or Console? (Score:2)
From there, I got a job at a computer/video rental store (I know, odd combination, but made it easy to provide extended hours of support). That's where my real learning of computers began. Unfortunately its somewhat difficult to learn a lot without actually doing. How many times is a kid going to be replacing internal parts, or troubleshooting IRQ or com port confilcts? While it would be nice if the next generation at least knew the difference between a Hard Drive and a case, I'd be happy if they knew that the CD-Rom drive isn't a cup holder, and yes, you do need to plug in a phone line to the modem.
Most of this comes from doing phone support for an ISP. I have no doubt kids are much better at general usage of a computer than most adults, but we don't need a generation that knows everything about computers and nothing about anything else.
Look at us geeks. We tend to be curious about a lot of things, but we certainly don't know everything about anything. Heck, I come home everyday and flip on the TV. I don't really understand much about how a live image is broadcast without the use of film (I understand how film works). I don't understand how that image is passed down a coax line. And does that make a difference? No.
For me, the kind of curiosity that got me to be fairly knowledgeable about computers didn't set in until I was 17 or so. Sure I could write some BASIC programs, and could play solitare, but I wasn't too interested in how it worked. That or I was scared that there was too much to learn! I'm not honestly sure which. Eventually, that curiosity took over and I am where I am now. A good job, and one of the most knowledgeable people in the office about a vast number of computer related things.
We all eventually find a subject that satisfies our curiosity. There's no point pushing a kid into something, they'll probably just resent that subject out of teen-rebellion.
computers are no replacement (Score:1)
I think technology is a great tool for introducing these kids to the topics i mentioned- like reading Slashdot news can spark your interest in science, but it's not going to replace years of education.
Why? (Score:1)
Reciently my neighbor needed a new lawn mower (Score:3)
My neighbor reciently needed a new lawn mower. Despite that fact that he has been mowing lawns since he was 12, he had no idea what the difference between a 2 cycle and 4 cycle engine is. Latter I was surprized to discover that he has no idea how to tell if the engine is flooded, much less what to do about it. Yet he has been using lawn mowers for 30 years!
When I lived in an apartment I found that some of my neighbors have no idea corn grows much like thos trees in the part. He was against hunting because it was killing, but he didn't consider it a meal unless there was beef, pork or chicken included.
Okay, the wording is changed a little bit to make the situations work, but look again and try to convince me that the above situations are any different. I could be entirely self sufficant, growing and cooking my own food, refining my own crude into gas, building my own car from ore, typing on a commptuer I designed and built myself in my own fab. the only problem is I wouldn't. after taking the time to grown my own food and mine my own ore I wouldn't have time left in my life to design the car, much less build it, find crude, refine it, build a comptuer fab plant. So humans specialize. I don't do medican, I go to a doctor. I might have a small garden, but it doesn't come close to providing all the food I eat. Even if materials are provided, building a chip fab plant alone takes longer then I'm likely to live.
This kid will grow up calling a tech every time he needs comptuer help. So long as overall he is contributing to socity in some way I'm not worried. If he tries to make a life of crime, or live entirly on welfare (assuming ability to not) I'm worried. Convince me that this kid is an idiot who can never be a productive member of socity and there is a problem. If this kids interests call a comptuer a tool and he isn't interested in how his tools work, who cares.
My professors in computer science all were on research projects, and it turned out most were working with the medical school across the street. Sure a medical doctor/student could program a comptuer, but everyone is better off if they work togather, the comptuer people writing programs to orginize data usefully while the MDs interoret what it means. (In the case I recall the computer orginized brain slices, but there are many possibilities)
The world may need more engineers, but we need the majroity of people to not be engineers.
Re:Computer or Console? (Score:2)
When I was 13, if I wanted an interrupt I had to solder the wire to carry it...I hope in ten years a PC won't be able to have an IRQ conflict...
Some people are drivers, some are mechanics (Score:2)
Being involved in one doesn't mean being involved in everything.
When I was your age... (Score:1)
Now this computer was used ni several ways. He wrote programs to quiz my math skills. Then he let me have the code and enough manuals to hang myself by. I learned mbasic around the age of 10. Love it.
My first PC was a 386/33 when there were 486/100s coming out. My first console was a Sega Mastersystem for which I owned 3 games.
I am currently 25 and a Sun Systems Engineer. I program in my spare time and I build my own computers (no not with a soldering iron!) I have owned many games and have *rarely* gotten more than 25% done with anything quest-like.
I don't know if it was genetics or *how* I was exposed to computers. What I do know is that my exposure to computers at an early age gave me a supreme advantage in my career of choice. I have a basic understanding of computer problems that most of the people around me have called freaky.
Do you want a little boy that has fun playing games and freely choses his own life goals? Then let him do whatever he wants. If you want to open his eyes to the wonders of computers, let him see how it fascinates you. Whatever you do end up doing never force your own views or expectations on him.
Leeman
Re:Recently my neighbor needed a new lawn mower (Score:2)
And if you think you want to be self-sufficient, dig up an old copy of "Spacehounds of IPC", where the hero has to do things such as build a generator by smelting copper, building a wire-pulling machine, manufacture electrical insulation, making bearings, inventing a lubricant, building a coil-winding machine, then building the generator... [Thanks to the Web, I see that this book is Reference 21 in "Interprocess Communication in the Ninth Edition Unix System [bell-labs.com]"]
Try helping him out. (Score:1)
I have found that the best way to do this is with baby steps. Start by teaching him the simple things like changing wallpaper, colors, resolution, sounds, etc. Help him understand what a driver is and why it's needed. If he can just get the fundamentals fed to him slowly then he will eventually have a decent grasp on his own pc. Something that he needs to understand since it doesn't sound like the parents are very involved with his computer use is that he needs to be able to fix it if it breaks. He is entirely responsible for it but you are there when he needs help. This, of course isn't where you should start, but where you should lead him. This is how my father taught me about motorcycles. He helped me and showed me what I needed until I reached a certain level of experience at which point he said, "it's yours boy, you break it, you fix it." But of course he was still there to help me out when I was in over my head. And he made sure that I wasn't punished by his reactions, etc. if I made the wrong decisions (I had to suffer the consequences of these decisions by having to wait until I could afford parts or whatever).
The most important thing is going to be for you to be patient and remember that not everybody has the desire/ability to grok computers at whatever level you are at so jsut try to make him an informed user.
Hate to say this and I'll probably be modded down. (Score:1)
At that time I had been exposed just a bit to computers since I was about 10 years old (I didn't have one, neither did my parents, only my causin had a computer).
Also I don't think it's too big a bite (pun intended) to chew to understand the fundamental difference between HDD and RAM (to dumb it REALLY down it can be explained like this: "if you turn your machine off, there is shit on your HDD, but not in your RAM".)
Of course, I could just be a born genius
(ps. don't bitch and moan about poor spelling, I've got a final tomorrow and I haven't slept in 2 days.)
interest (Score:1)
The first is that you don't care how it works, you just want to know how to use it. This is just the surface understanding. "I turn the switch and the lights come on."
The second is that you wonder how it works, but only for personal enlightenment. This is an intelectual understanding. "When I turn the switch that closes the circuit to allow eletricity to flow through the bulbs, which heats up the filament causing it to glow"
The third category is that not only do you want to know how it works but also how to modify it. This is an understanding at a practical level. "Hey I could replace the normal switch with a dimmer switch, that would be better"
the point is that not every one is interested in the details of some things (computers being one of them, cars are another good one). and when you _are_ interested in some thing, it is sometimes hard to understand how someone could _not_ be interested in it.
Re:Reciently my neighbor needed a new lawn mower (Score:2)
Actually, rereading the initial question, I think your interpretation is the correct one. Nonetheless, having bothered to formulate and type it, I'll let my question stand...
A decent book, if technical (Score:2)
That said, my younger brother (who IS interested in computers), at about the same age, got a lot out of the "How the *fill-in-the-blank* Work" series of books. They're paperbacks about 1/2" thick including "How Networks Work" "How Computers Work" and "How the Internet Works". Used to be published by Macmillan, now by Que. Includes helpful diagrams.
So anyway, if you do find a kid who shows an interest and needs some somewhat-technical information, you might suggest this. Sounds like this isn't the right kid tho. Ease off.
Depends on the kid, but it's not the real question (Score:3)
I've got two little boys asleep upstairs. They both like watching daddy taking computers apart and rebuilding them, want to play games and edutainment CD-Roms (Dorling Kindersley: one of the few reasons to maintain a Windows box in the house!) and generally regard the fact that they've got their own boxes (office surplus boxes, fairly low-spec) in their rooms as a real bonus.
The interesting thing is the difference between them. James, at 5, is just starting to explore the stuff that the OS does. I frequently have to reinstall the whole shebang for him after he's tinkered it into blue-screened oblivion, and we have to ration his access to the power cable (windows security being something he learned to bypass shortly before his third birthday) to make sure he doesn't spend his entire life in front of the screen. The challenge is to teach him some social skills before he enters that teenage pupation that will see him emerge as a fully-transformed geek. This is a kid who sits on Santa's knee and asks for a Linux distro just like daddy's...
Paddy (3), on the other hand, cares about his computer only in so far as it's been set running to do something he wants to be involved in. He'll sit and run through something that he feels he's learning from or having fun with, and when it's over he's off to play dinosaurs or just go tear round the garden at about .9c.
Paddy might well learn how to take a kernel apart and put it back together, but it'll be a chore to him in a way that it won't be to James.
Me, I'm somewhere in between. About forty per cent of my job is sysadmin/IT manager: I can start with a pile of components and a few discs and have a running box in a couple of hours, I can handle small programming tasks and could tool up to do something ambitious, but frankly it's work to me: I learned it because I needed the skillset and I learned not a whit more than I needed to understand how and why it worked and how to do basic field repairs when it buggered up.
The issue is that it's a personality issue what you get out of IT. The kid in the example used his computer as a means to doing something else, I would imagine, and never needed to go further.
It says nothing about the issue of what use computing is in little hands, and my answer to that is: the same as any other tool. I teach things to my kids using computers, plastic dinosaurs, the TV, fishing tackle, and a whole pile of other stuff. None of them is a sine qua non: all are of varying utility depending on circumstance.
Confessions of a Tech Junkie (Score:3)
I spent summers coding on a Commodore PET during '81 and '82. During the school year I got my grubby hands on an Apple II+ and delved into BASIC. In '84 my parents bought me a Commodore 64, and a couple years later bought a Commodore 128. I was in paradise.
In 1990 I got an IBM 386DX/20 (*hot shit* hardware for 1990, lemme tell you) and I discovered Pascal and C++. And from there things have only ballooned.
Today, I'm an engineer with a good job. Playing games on the machines didn't hurt my technical skills one bit, although it didn't really help, either.
What helped the most, without question, was when I first got on the Net (BBS and Internet) in '88. Suddenly, there were entire worlds available to me. I met other kids who were into tech, I found a couple of helpful mentors who helped change the way I thought about programming (thanks, Chris, wherever you are)... I'd spend a couple of hours each day on BBSes and the Net, talking about things that interested me--you know, geek stuff.
That was the most helpful thing, insofar as learning about tech: finding mentors and fellow geeks. In my case, the computer was a medium by which to find them. But if a kid is just using a computer as a glorified Nintendo, the kid's going to wind up thinking of it as a glorified Nintendo. They're not going to talk about 3D performance and why antialiasing is so important to clear graphics, they're going to talk about "d00d! did u know that there's a naked mod for Drakkan?"
(Not that I think there's anything wrong with teenage boys talking about naked mods for Drakkan. If they weren't talking about sex at least part of the time, I'd wonder what was wrong with them... But I think if they never think about anything other than mods and warez, they're missing out.)
Find a mentor for your kid, someone who can show your kid that there's an entire world out there that's just ripe for the taking. And, by all means, keep on doing what you're doing--paying attention and worrying.
Thats pretty sad (Score:1)
I bought my own first computer in the 7th grade (P.75 for 200$) but before then had constant access to my mom's.) In the 8th grade I acquired a pent.120, and as a Freshman built a p2.400.
Now as a Sophmore I am looking to Build a new one (probably T.Bird)
Now, I do have to admit I had someone to help me (My Uncle who was very into computers lived with us for a year after he got out of the Army)
but by the time I was 4 or 5 I could navigate myself around DOS.
By when I was 10 I was the one my mom turned to when the computer crashed and she needed help.
When I was 13, my Uncle got me into Linux (I can install it and compile Glide, but thats my extent so far).
Now at 15 I own 4 computers, ran a homenetwork last summer for my house, have a Freesco firewall set-up and running on our house network for road-runner Cable Access.
I constantly help my mom with her computer (I am planning to upgrade her to Win2000 this winter), I helped set-up almost all of the computers in the CAD lab at my school, my teachers know to come to me when they need help with their computers at school or work, and the dude who is a Senior who helps out with all the computers around the school (Tech-assistant) is as best as I can figure by the way he acts towards me, Either afraid or Jealous.
My suggestion for the kid is to somehow get them interested in it, such as, we'll by you the most exspensive computer you want, you just have to put it together ( and them give him a couple books on the subject), I do not know of any classes or anything for kids his age, but maybe I am wrong.
Maybe if you try to make it intersting for him he'll want to learn. But, perhaps he could be like my sister, and just like to play games, and call on me when it comes to something as simple as filling in a Username and password for setting up a yahoo account (and my mom got mad because I was upset that my 11 year old sister couldn't fill in a Username, password, date of birth, and press OK)
Don't interfere with young geeks, they will mature (Score:1)
My point is, your young geek will grow up and mature in many areas, maybe not all at once, so let him live his life how he sees fit. He will mature in time.
Draw from my own experience (Score:1)
Now mind you back then there weren't games like UT Q3 and the likes (more likely than not more addictive than amber pitfall), but I found that with some guiding by my dad to start with I developed a natural interest in computer things. I went from playing pitfall, using fastback and kermit, to playing MUDs on local BBSs, and using gopher, to taking apart my P75 (and always ending up with screws leftover), etc. Now (at 16), I find myself ahead of most others my age (always an exception running around however), running OpenBSD for my own domain and others. Writting C++ AP A/B courses, etc.
So I suppose, without answering this specific question, it'd mostly depend on the kid. I had an inate interest in such things (and still do). Maybe if you just introduced kid 'x' to the unlimited stuff there is to know with computers, he'd take the rest on by himself. If not... Well then he'll be the one I'm cursing at when I keep getting my ass kicked in UT.
Hackers are born, not made. (Score:2)
Mind you, I can't stand it when proud parents beam "My boy knows everything about the computer! He's on it all the time!" and what they really mean is he knows nothing but games, as you said. But, whadyyagonnado.
d
"Oh, Jean's grandson is into computers like you were."
"Ok, Ma? He moves the mouse and clicks a button. I hacked assembly code. Kids these days don't even know what assembly code is."
--actual conversation with my mother
How I Started (Score:1)
I didn't know how to get to the games nor did I know how to run the games.
However, I did know how to read.
Instill a desire to learn. If there is anything you can teach your children, teach them how to learn.
If you tell them and show them everything, you won't be doing them a favor. You'll only be teaching them lazyness.
Re:Why? (Score:1)
First, use your TiVO to record The Screen Savers episodes.
Next tape the kids eyes open and make him watch 24 hours of Pat and Leo, as long as John "I'm talking out of my a$$" DeVorak doesn't appear the kid should be fine.
God bless TechTV.
Only one way to find out.. (Score:1)
Like someone else said, hackers are born, not made. Some people will just take to computers like ducks to water. Others will play games for 5 years and not learn the difference between RAM and HD. (Anyone ever play the Paranoia RPG? Remember that mutation "machine empathy"? That's the sort of thing hackers have)
But I reckon the only way you'll ever find out is to expose a kid to a computer and see what happens. When I was 9 or so, my family got a TRS-80.. my brother and I both fiddled around with it a bit, learned a little BASIC, played a few (terrible!) games. Then we got a C-64, and that's pretty much where we diverged. He still played a few games, so did I, but I got into assembly coding as well.
One thing led to another and soon enough I was at uni studying computer science and coding Amiga demos in my spare time, he was off doing a law degree. Which he completed with first class honours, so it's not that I'm smarter than him or anything, it's just that we're differently wired.
Anyway, if I'm trying to make any sort of point with this rambling, it's that exposing some kids to computers will lead to lifelong interest and highly-paid programming jobs, others it will merely lead to playing a few games and then getting sick of it. But if you at all feel that having your kid grow up to be a hacker would be a good thing, then you gotta make sure they get the opportunity, but not try to force it if it's just not happening.
Sounds like a familiar story: my own. (Score:1)
Find out if the kid is interested in programming, if so, by all means, get him a BASIC or Perl compiler/interpretter and the O'Reilly book[s]. After he's done a bit of programming, show him some source code from the games he plays, that should hold his interest in computers for quite some time(not to mention he knows how the game behaves, and should be able to increase his knowledge of the language greatly from knowing the results of what hes looking at). If you want to show him hardware, allow him to take apart and reassemble the replaced computer. If he isn't interested, theres not much you can do except encourage or challenge him to find out; it's his life afterall, and he decides what to do with it.
"// this is the most hacked, evil, bastardized thing I've ever seen. kjb"
Re:Depends on the kid, but it's not the real quest (Score:1)
and we have to ration his access to the power cable
Which is interesting because my cat, Tigger [ed.ac.uk], has just learnt to turn my PC off when I'm not paying too much attention.
I've seen him do this out of the corner of my eye - its litterally one large bang against the, recessed, power switch .. with his nose.
Steve
---
What really concerns me... (Score:2)
Today's kids have a deep lack of curiosity (not all of them - but a large percentage). When I was younger, kids seemed to be more curious about the world - about how it works. They also seemed to have a greater imagination, able to construct new "worlds" in the minds.
Maybe in this particular case the kid never got curious because the computer made it seem easy. He got complacent, because he got everything "handed" to him by the machine. When the machine asked for something - he got scared.
You see this in adults today - if things are going the way they expect, as soon as the system breaks down a little, they go nuts. If the system breaks down a lot (think natural disaster), more often than not, chaos rules.
Adults and children alike - don't know where to turn to many times. In the computer realm, there is no middle ground for help when it is really needed. Most people are unaware of user groups, magazines are filled with more advertisements than anything else, books are too wordy for most people (you can tell how "curious" a family is by seeing if they have a book selection - if they have at least a small one, with maybe an encyclopedia set - then they are probably real curious - though this generalisation may go away in time due to the Net), and they can't get to a good website, because it isn't listed on the portal yet...
I don't think you should force the kid - but it might be good to find out if this is the only thing he isn't curious about - or if it is a general problem (I was alway asking "why","what","how" questions on everything when I was a kid). If it is a general problem, maybe talking with the parents and the kid would be in order.
People should be curious about their world, as well as have wonderment about things (many people have said they wouldn't care how their TV works, just as long as a picture comes up - but I am always amazed that the thing actually works, and I am continually filled with amazement and awe at the number of people and minds that worked to create such a device over the years, the advancements, etc). By having this curiosity and wonderment - people can acheive great things, or at least have the potential to acheive great things.
I support the EFF [eff.org] - do you?
Message from a 'Late Bloomer' (Score:2)
I had some friends that had computers, so I got an idea of how they worked and how to use them from that casual contact.
We got a computer somepoint when I was in HS (a 486sx25, 4 megs ram, no modem or sound card). I found it uninspiring. For the first year or so I never did anything other than word process on it for my HS papers (I think this was in 11th grade).
I'm not sure why, but my senior year in HS I thought I'd take the AP Compsci course. DAMN I fell in love. I embarked on a year that changed my life, I dived head first into programming. Here was something I could learn at my own pace. I owe a good deal of my education to the PCGPE, put together by Mark Feldman I think. Mark, if you're out there, THANKS!
I've noticed that people that have been programming their whole lives have a background that helps them, but the longer I've been around the less difference that makes, strong problem solving skills are more important that having played with BBS's back in the day.
Not playing with computers as a kid didn't hurt me at all, I knew it was right for me when I found it. I think it's more important to expose kids to lots of ideas than it is to make them learn much about one topic. Once that kid finds the right thing nothing will stop him or her from learning all they can about it.
If I'd gotten hooked on computers as a kid I don't think that I'd ever have gotten into music the way that I did, the study of the occult, the study of chess, or many other areas that I reap enjoyment from these days. I certainly wouldn't have gotten as into sports. While I'm not athletically active anymore, I'm glad that I spent a few years playing competitive soccer. It gives me experience in something completely different.
I don't think that computers are good or bad for kids, just make sure that the kid gets the chance to be exposed to a wide variety of experiences. They'll bite at something!
Jon
hardware is boring (Score:1)
Turn this kid on to some suitably high-level language. For most of the people reading this site, this was probably BASIC. There have been discussions recently about what you should use today, but I will stay away from that can of worms.
If he has the hacker nature he will get hooked and want to know more. He will learn that his favorite toy HLL runs on top of lower level code, and he will want to start coding down there for more power and control. He will learn about how the OS itself works, and he might want to hack on that as well. By this point he will have a reason to learn about hardware.
Re:hardware is boring (Score:1)
Huh? (Score:1)
Some people shouldn't ever come in contact with computers: gulible people, people with no sense of humor, those who cannot distinguish fact from fiction, those who get easily offended, and hypochondriacs.
There are AOL members who have had AOL for years and think AOL is the internet.
"Stupid people should die"
-Anonymous