Work Options In The U.S. When Student Visas Expire? 207
Ellen Spertus asks: "I'm a computer science professor and am unsure how to advise my students who are on student visas about how to work toward getting a H1B visa or other means of being able to work in the U.S after graduating. Any advice?" What advice do you all have for foreigners looking to work in the U.S.? What would be the best way for them to go about getting a green card, especially if any possible corporate sponsorship is in doubt?
Easy... very easy... (Score:1)
When you graduate, you start with what is called "practical training", which allows you to work at any company on stuff somewhat related to your degree. This gives you a 1-year breathing room. During this period, you should look around for a job at place where you wouldn't mind working for 3-4 years. The best bet is to head over to one of the "hot" areas like Boston, Bay Area, RTP, (to name a few) and apply locally at companies there. Chances are very high that you will get a job offer or two within a couple of days.
Next, the company will apply to the INS for an "H-1" visa for you. This process takes about 1-3 months. Since you are in a "practical training" status, you can start work from day #1.
Once you have the H-1 visa (typically valid for 3 years, and extensible for upto 6 years total), ask your company to start your "green card" processing. This can take from a few months to a few years, depending on the company!. If the company you work for has had trouble hiring qualified people in the past, they can "rush" your greencard application along by using the "Reduction in Recruiting" (RIR) clause. I know of people in the Bay Area who got their greencards in 6-8 months this way, working for Oracle.
Which brings me to the final point: try to pick companies which are relatively big, so that they will know what to do about H-1s, and they will have a good team of lawyers on hand to do the processing.
Some URLs to checkout:
Blatant Classism: STOP VOTING THIS DOWN !!! (Score:1)
Re:You have to check (Score:1)
Re:We have enough foreigners as it is (Score:1)
Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:1)
It was a common practise for immigrants to come to america, make money, and return to their home towns to settle down. I.e. the patriarch of the Trump family (i.e. the builder of New Yorks City's ugliest buildings) made their fortune, returned to europe (germany or austria I believe) with money, and then was chased out because he had returned just after he was over mandatory military service age.
There are mining towns in Pennsylvania where the entire town came from one village in italy and they came here to work, but brought over the culture etc. of their old world. Certianly not to become americans.
The current state of america's amazingly broad background of people seems to me to be at least as much the result of people who were determined they were never going to stay but were seduced by the better life here as it was people who up and moved.
Don't believe the happy crap in the history books. Most of it is lies. Lots of people moved to america because the alternative was to be put on a firing line or starving. I believe that if a person moves just to make money, in most cases they will believe they will return to their home. It's desperation that causes people to uproot themselves completely.
-Peter
Re:Whatever happened to the American Dream? (Score:1)
What annoys me to no end is calling my Electricity provider and having to press "1" to continue in English. When my relatives came over from Italy at the beginning of the century they didn't have that luxury, they adapted just like all the other immigrants.
Re:Study in the US (Score:1)
Easy, get a semi-crooked lawyer (Score:1)
Wither Canada... (Score:1)
Be Seeing You,
Jeffrey.
Re:Why work in the US? (Score:1)
Do you have reading comprehension problems, or do you just like to pretend you completely miss the point? Go back and look at my earlier post [slashdot.org]. See where it says:If you actually read what I wrote, you'll see that I never suggested eliminating the quotas, or even raising them. What I suggested was removing the job-transfer restrictions on people with H1B's. In particular, I don't think H1B holder should have to wait 3 months to switch jobs, nor should greencard applications be nullified if one switches companies.
If people with H1B's could easily switch jobs, then companies would have less of an incentive to hire people with H1Bs. This, in turn, means more American will get hired, which is good for American workers. It also means that it's very unlikely that the H1B quota won't be reached (so there won't be a need to raise it yet again). Finally, the H1B workers will have a lot more freedom.
As you said, you can't make everyone happy. The people who won't be happy are the companies who now have to pay bit more for American workers, and deal with the fact that they don't have any indentured servants anymore. Also, those people who would get H1Bs in the current system but won't with the new system would be upset as well. (these would typically be the less skilled people, I would imagine) My point is that American workers shouldn't be blaming the H1B employees. They should be blaming the corporations and the INS for making the situation so bad, when there is a simple solution that would help the American workers. (who are the voters, after all... isn't the US supposed to be a democracy?)
I doubt it very much. INS is a secondary factor, Silicon Valley still has more jobs and higher pay.
Sillicon valley is getting worse though. The rent and housing prices are astronomically high. It's getting to the point where the amount of money you get to keep after paying taxes, food, and rent in Silicon valley is less than it would be in Vancouver even if you were only making half as much in Vancouver. And the stock shake-up hasn't helped the job situation in the valley all that much. Most people want options, but when stocks are falling, options are worthless.
Perhaps market forces will balance things out. It could take a while though. The stocks dropped quite a few months ago, but housing prices are still on the rise.
Re:Why work in the US? (Score:1)
The second problem is a bigger one: companies would be hesitant to support H1B visas. Why should they when, as far as they know, they are going to be used as just a way to get into the country, a temporary stop to jump to someplace else.
The first problem is solved by the second: people only get H1Bs by having a job lined up. If less companies are willing to hire H1Bs, there won't be an increased demand from the INS's point of view. There would actually be fewer applications.
I don't think the second problem is is actually a problem at all. If companies are less willing to hire foreign workers, that's better for American workers, because corporations would have a greater incentive to hire Americans. The only people who will be annoyed by this are the corporations, and the foreign workers would want to get an H1B, but aren't able to find an American company willing to hire them.
Yeah, well, it's not like it's hard to find a computer-related job anywhere in the States. Options are mostly given out in Silicon Valley, but for straight salary you can get work anywhere.
It isn't hard to find a computer related job in Canada either, the cost of living is a hell of a lot lower, the standard of living is higher and the chances of getting gunned down in the street is significantly lower. It's much easier to immigrate to Canada as well. If you're just going for straight salary, you might as well go to Canada.
Re:F1 Visa Notes (Score:1)
Re:Why work in the US? (Score:1)
I guess my first complaint is that you completely ignore the point. The foreign workers aren't happy, and the American workers aren't happy. Worst of all, the American workers blame the foreigners for "stealing their jobs".
Proof, please. Just because you believe that this is possibly true does not make it so, and handwaving isn't going to help.
I've had first-hand experience. If you really want proof for yourself, go work in any of top-10 the companies listed here [h1bsponsors.com], and see what I'm talking about.
Of course, if that's too difficult, you could just try and use some common sense. H1B workers don't want to have to leave. Even if their home country isn't horrible, simply having to uproot your life and move everything (again) is a significant burden. So these foreign workers really don't want to be forced to leave. Now couple that with the fact that the employer has complete control over whether the worker is allowed to stay in the US. If the worker is fired, they've got 10 days to leave the US. Imagine trying to move to another country in 10 days. Of course these people are going to work really hard to make sure they don't get fired. Even if the the company doesn't treat them fairly, they'll still grin and bear it.
Now given that, which kind of employee do you think most high-tech companies would rather have: someone who they can pay less, treat badly, and still squeeze 90 hours/week out of, without any significant risk that they'll leave, or an American who will work a normal amount of hours, demand raises, and leave for a competitor if you don't give them what they want?
Wonderful. You "guarantee". And what would you do if your prediction fails?
I'm not saying to remove the quota. Keep it. The worst that would happen is that H1B workers would no longer be indentured servants. Oh, I guess that's just too horrible. But if you actually think through the motivations of the companies, and look at the restrictions placed on foreign workers, you'll see that the current system is set up to not only hurt foreign workers, but also American workers as well.
High-tech companies (at least ones with some sense) hire people they need. Whether the person is an American or an H1B holder is a relatively minor issue. Do you really think that the whole world has less talent to offer than just the United States of America?
My point is that is isn't a minor issue for these companies. As it stands, there is a significant benefit to hiring H1B workers. If the changes I propose were made, then the balance would shift the other way. There would be a benefit to hiring Americans, because the company wouldn't have to pay for the legal work required to get a visa. Right now, that legal work is insignificant compared to the gains of having employees who will work exceedingly long hours, and won't leave unless you fire them.
I define "completely open" as anybody who wants to can come in and live (and work) here for as long as he wants.
So tell me, what would be wrong with that provided these people paid taxes (which they do)?
Er.. weren't you just saying that without artificial incentives the high-tech companies will just hire American workers instead of these damned foreigners? Please unconfuse yourself.
What I'm talking about is the fact that immigrant workers are getting more and more pissed off at the INS. I wouldn't be too surprised if in a few years all of the good high tech workers leave for Canada instead. When the supply of indentured servants dries up, the American high tech companies will either have to leave or do their development outside of the US.
Have them get an lawyer (Score:1)
If they just want an HB1 visa they should find a company that is willing to hire them and if the company does not have the procedue in place then get a lawyer. Yes I know we may think of them as the scum of the earth but they do help people.
I'm sure somebody has suggested this by now... (Score:1)
--sam
Re:You Must be joking (Score:1)
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Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:1)
Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:1)
If the Elbonian immigrants who come here for purely economic purposes do nothing but consume products imported from Elbonia and send money to Elbonia, I think you could make a fair argument that they aren't making a positive contribution to the American economy. At best they're making a marginal contribution and at worst they're just adding to the population/housing/environment problems major coastal cities have AND taking potential opportunities from native-born Americans.
That said, there are dozens of cultures that are having similar problems - trying to defend against a cultural/language invasion. And in a lot of cases, the invaders are English language and American culture. Efforts to resist it are normally either ineffective (France, Quebec) or the cure is arguably worse than the disease (fundamentalist countries.)
Point is, the mapping between geographic location and language (and culture in general) is becoming more and more vague. In other words, it's just another effect of globalization. Cultural boundaries are being broken all over the place. I don't think there's much one can do about it.
Being an American has to mean something or it means nothing. I don't think being an American means the BS that media companies pump out (which is what many fundamentalist countries object to by and large) and I certainly hope it never is reduced to the definition of "being able to be a capitalist".
Being an American should mean embracing the core values of American cultural identity -- freedom, justice, and equality. Just wanting to make a dollar here is a repudiation of those higher values. Furthermore, language is the fluid which binds that cultural identity. You cannot participate in the fullness of American political and social life without speaking English to some degree.
I'm not more interested in having someone come to America to just work and make money and not become an American than Elbonians are interested in having me show up in their country and act American and ignore the customs that make them Elbonians.
Obvious option doesn't work. (Score:1)
#1 Girl/Guy ratio in computing is a little stiff and most states still don't do same sex marriages.
#2 USA/International ratio (excluding the gender thing) are pretty awful as well.
#3 Have you ever seen the girls that are interested in computers?
Ohh well... just had to throw in my 2 cents.
Re:Do not deserve to be here (Score:1)
Eric
Some misconceptions (Score:1)
I don't understand this "we have enough immigrants" mentality, which is by no means limited to the US. All developed countries (and many developing nations) have birthrates below replacement rate, and none have succeeded in reversing their declines. Without immigrants, the US will die as a society and as a nation. The rational thing to do is to import warm bodies, preferably those who have significant economic value to the country.
Re:Path to H-1 (Score:1)
[student visa].</i>
Only one year of OPT is attached to any F-1. So extending the visa is not going to extend your OPT time.
Re:We have enough foreigners as it is (Score:1)
_joshua_
Re:Advice to foreigners (Score:1)
Perhaps I shouldn't be shocked, but it amazes me that a forum such as Slashdot has attracted so many pig-ignorant racist morons.
The ones who post anonymously fair enough, they are obviously squirmy bigoted cowards, but shit, some of these retards actually put their names to their posts. Knee-jerk jingoistic bigoted fuck-pigs.
There, I feel better now.My Advice (Score:1)
You want IT Women ??? Come to DC. . . (Score:1)
Re:F1 Visa Notes (Score:1)
Re:F1 Visa Notes (Score:1)
Re:That's nice... (Score:1)
Re:Why work in the US? (Score:1)
Well, you can't make everybody happy all the time. The foreign workers accept this (=> think this is a good deal) because this is a way for them to stay in the US. Again, they pay a price, but they believe that what they get in return is worth it. As to American workers, they seem to forget that it is now a global economy and they have no any special rights to jobs.
I've had first-hand experience
That's not proof. That's what's called anecdotal evidence and I can pull up any number of things that happened to me or my friends and prove anything with that.
Of course these people are going to work really hard to make sure they don't get fired
So, what's wrong with that? We do not live in an ideal world -- being born in the US confers much more advantages than, say, being born in Bangladesh. Given that, these people on H1B visas are climbing up -- they are bettering their life. They pay for this, in part by somewhat worse working conditions. It's up to them whether they believe it is a fair trade.
I'm not saying to remove the quota. Keep it.
So what are you saying? Or you are just bitching for bitching sake?
[re completely open immigration] So tell me, what would be wrong with that provided these people paid taxes (which they do)?
Never been to the third world, have you? I'll tell you what. Say you are a peasant in China. Or India. Or Russia (I'm just naming the most populous countries of the third world). Where would you life be better -- at home or panhandling in the US? For some of them -- at home, but enough of them will choose USA. How do several hundred million of Chinese, Indians and Russians immigrants strike you?
What I'm talking about is the fact that immigrant workers are getting more and more pissed off at the INS
Oh, for sure. INS is a completely horrible organization that is composed of terminally stupid people who believe they are the direct representatives of god on Earth. If it were up to me I'd have them all taken out and shot. Spoken from personal experience
I wouldn't be too surprised if in a few years all of the good high tech workers leave for Canada instead.
I doubt it very much. INS is a secondary factor, Silicon Valley still has more jobs and higher pay.
When the supply of indentured servants dries up, the American high tech companies will either have to leave or do their development outside of the US.
So? No problem. That's one of the things that the marketplace is supposed to take care of, right?
Kaa
Re:Why work in the US? (Score:1)
Nope, just a short attention span. Er... what I was talking about?
removing the job-transfer restrictions on people with H1B's.
A sensible idea. Two drawbacks, though. First, the goal of the whole process is to make it painful. It's kind of a Darwinian selection. Bureacracy likes to make people jump through hoops and since there is no control over INS ("You say we are rude? Hmm... you want to know about your application? What application? We have no records of any application from you..."), it makes its hoops particularly numerous and nasty. In any case, reducing the painfullness of the process (of getting to a green card) will result in the increase of people applying to the program.
The second problem is a bigger one: companies would be hesitant to support H1B visas. Why should they when, as far as they know, they are going to be used as just a way to get into the country, a temporary stop to jump to someplace else.
Sillicon valley is getting worse though. The rent and housing prices are astronomically high.
Yeah, well, it's not like it's hard to find a computer-related job anywhere in the States. Options are mostly given out in Silicon Valley, but for straight salary you can get work anywhere.
Kaa
Re:Why work in the US? (Score:1)
So everybody is happy. What's your complaint, then?
[re 9-to-5 jobs] I'm fairly certain that non-US citizens can't get jobs in the US government.
The original poster was complaining that honest Americans had to work 90-hour weeks.
I think his complaint had to do with the fact that H1B workers typically work longer hours for equal or even lower pay than American workers.
Proof, please. Just because you believe that this is possibly true does not make it so, and handwaving isn't going to help.
H1B workers and greencard applicants could switch jobs anywhere near as easily as American workers, I guarantee that the H1B quotas wouldn't even be reached the following year. High tech companies would start hiring Americans first, and only hiring H1B workers when they needed to.
Wonderful. You "guarantee". And what would you do if your prediction fails?
High-tech companies (at least ones with some sense) hire people they need. Whether the person is an American or an H1B holder is a relatively minor issue. Do you really think that the whole world has less talent to offer than just the United States of America?
I'm not sure how you define "completely open"
I define "completely open" as anybody who wants to can come in and live (and work) here for as long as he wants.
Besides, what have you done that makes you deserve special treatment? You were born here?
I? I ain't done nuthing. And, as a matter of fact, I wasn't born here.
Don't worry, the INS's policies are making the environment hostile enough that soon all of the high-tech companies will leave,
Er.. weren't you just saying that without artificial incentives the high-tech companies will just hire American workers instead of these damned foreigners? Please unconfuse yourself.
Kaa
Recent 'Security Jobs Thread' (Score:1)
In order to look at the archives you have to deal with their absoutely _ANNOYING_ method of keeping you wrapped in their frames, so this URL will look pretty ugly, but you can find them at: http://www.s ecu rityfocus.com/frames/?content=/templates/archive.p ike%3Fend%3D2000-09-30%26list%3D77%26sta rt%3D2000-09-24%26threads%3D0%26%26_ref%3D10534417 63 [securityfocus.com].
After reading the thread I think the general concensus was to get married and get a green card :). Crispan Cowan even used the example of the movie as a not-so-far-from-life situation.
Cheers,
Ryan
Re:Different student visas (Score:1)
In the left bottom corner, there is a little section with room for checkmarks. When you're lucky, the good one is checked
I am lucky, i got here on a J1 visa to start working for this company before i got my h1b.
Right now, I have an H1b, and i'm hoping to get married before it expires, and get a green card
Strange (Score:1)
NO I cant spell!
Re:That's nice... (Score:1)
Bzzzzzt!!! Wrong.
Have you heard of the coriolis effect?
You can do it (Score:1)
This entire issue will be moot... (Score:1)
story: -1 off topic (Score:1)
I think there should be a new poll
Where are u from:
-US
-Europe
-Russia
-China
-India
-Rest of world
-Away from Jon Katz
Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:1)
Duh... (Score:1)
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#o#
Re:Easy (Other meanings of FAIP) (Score:1)
Re:Why work in the US? (Score:1)
Thinker? - judging by your arguments, your ability to think seems seriously impaired.
Amen! But (Score:1)
Re:Different student visas (Score:1)
Bong, please play again.
You don't necessarily have to got back for two years, that is upto the visa issuing agency (ie you local embassy.) My wife's J never had the two year requirement on it and she simply transferred on to an H1.
Re:I've been there (Score:1)
Yep, but you have to be employed by the foreign subsidiary for at least a year.
Of course, if you can get in on an L1A then you can get an automatic greencard (no labor cert required.) Still takes 2 years though
Sham marriage (Score:1)
Re:Marry an American...outside the country (Score:1)
From what I can tell, the same forms have to be filled out and submitted to the same agencies in either case. Could you please provide more detail on which parts of this process are different? I would also really appreciate any additional advice.
Thanks.
Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:1)
Actually, I don't think it's true. Job prospects play much bigger role. I know it's like that in my case
Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:1)
As far as I understand, it's not the economic objections that are considered morally questionable. Of course, it's kind of hard to claim real economic harm from the immigrants right now, the economy being how it is. Maybe in a few years.
The objections that often get labeled "racist" have to do with cultural differences, especially language. And you're right, it is unfair - it often has nothing to do with race. But when has political correctness been fair?
That said, there are dozens of cultures that are having similar problems - trying to defend against a cultural/language invasion. And in a lot of cases, the invaders are English language and American culture. Efforts to resist it are normally either ineffective (France, Quebec) or the cure is arguably worse than the disease (fundamentalist countries.)
Point is, the mapping between geographic location and language (and culture in general) is becoming more and more vague. In other words, it's just another effect of globalization. Cultural boundaries are being broken all over the place. I don't think there's much one can do about it.
Um, no. J-1 is NOT a 3 year work permit. (Score:1)
If you enter an academic program, a J-1 visa has a great advantage over an F-1 visa: You are eligible for up to a total of 18 or 36 months of academic training, depending on your degree. You can take advantage of this, as long as the job you are doing is tied to your studies or your research in some way. This is much harder to do withan F-1 visa, and it is also limited to at most 12 months.
Aside from this, the home country residency requirement is only two years, and only if you got government (U.S. or foreign) funding for any part of the exchange program.
Overall I don't know what is better if your plan is permanent residency in the USA, but if you plan to return to your home country after you complete your academic program, consider choosing a J-1 visa instead of F-1.
H1b or Green Card? (Score:1)
I hope this helps. Unfortunately, there is a whole lot more I could say because there are several ways to get a green card. However, it makes for too much info for a response on slashdot. Hopefully you will find the links provided useful.
So much for a simple answer (Score:1)
There is no alternative to work. H1B visa is a work permit Visa. So unless the guy lands in the corporate space with a job, he/she is better of continuing the education path. All versed foreign students buffer their transition path where they work on F1 for a brief while before moving to an H1B. Similarly the Green card is given only if INS deems you worthy enough - i.e. you company feels you need one.
So like everything else in this great country, this is also based on corporate policies and capitalist requirements.
How to do this - assuming that the req. are specifically for the I.T. sector, ask you students to find consulting companies or even one man body shops (lot in NJ/NY/MA/CA) that can sponsor for a visa and find a position for them in the meanwhile. Some better ones would give you a job, provided you take care of the paper work and the attorney fees etc. They would be happy to sign anything. For the first year, ask you students to get exploited. The next year or so, they would have enough experience to move on to greener pastures. By then they would have learnt enough about the H1B/GC situation (stupid if they dint learn at school) that they can decide on career/residence strategies
Re:Neocolonialism (Score:1)
What kind of history books have you got? Not that I don't value the American contribution to overthrowing Nazi Germany, but when for God's sake has "American independence" ever been in danger after the War of Independence?
Re:Neocolonialism (Score:1)
In order for someone to be able to fight for American independence, the Axis would first have had to invade the US. This didn't happen (and no, Perl Harbour wasn't an invasion).
The US joining the war certainly was a good thing, but American soldiers weren't fighting for US independence in any but the most loose meaning of the word.
As for the British buring Washington, I seem to recall that the US started that war, and the burning of Washington was the revenge for the razing of York (later named Toronto), the capital of Upper Canada.
Claiming that those soldiers were fighting for American independence in 1812 is like German Wehrmacht veterans claiming they were fighting to protect their homeland in Russia or Yugoslavia...
Study in the US (Score:1)
Canada wants IT people, has no racial problems (Score:2)
Re:F1 Visa Notes (Score:2)
Re:Taxation is not Constitutional (Score:2)
Need to change status ASAP (Score:2)
Marry an American...outside the country (Score:2)
As far as I can tell this is due to the fact that the INS deals mostly with non-citizens so no one with voting power cares about the efficiency of service. One would think that efficiently processing those who can stay and efficiently deporting those who can not would benefit both sides, but this is not the way things work. The INS is by far the most inefficient government agency in the US.
If however, you marry a US citizen outside the US, the initial stages are handled through the US State Department and the process can be quite swift. ~6 mo rather than ~3 years.
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Re:Marry an American...outside the country (Score:2)
That being said, working outside the country with the state department does 3 things for you. It gets you an interview much sooner (this is the longest 2 years of the wait in our case), it means that your wife can get a working and travelling visa before she enters the US. It is impossible to travel if your visa lapses during the process of applying for a green card, even if it is the INS's fault. Finally the state department is designed to help American citizens and is extremely pleasant compared to dealing directly with the INS.
I'd be glad to put you in touch with my sister who went through the state department procedure. Email me at the address above.
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Re:Go home? (Score:2)
You don't have to agree with it, but it's certainly a point of view worthy of discussion.
And not at all racist.
Re:Why work in the US? (Score:2)
Yes, and then you only have to wait 3 or 4 months... if you're lucky.
Second, most people I know who work on H1Bs have an understanding with the company that after a couple of years, the company will sponsor that person for a green card.
Anyone with an H1B who wants to get a greencard better start the application process earlier than "after a couple of years". The greencard process typically takes 4-5 years. H1Bs only last 3 years, and you can only get one renewal, hence you've only got 6 years.
But of course most companies are more than happy to sponsor a greencard, because your application will be cancelled if you leave the company. Given the time constraints, you can't very easily apply for a greencard at another company, so you're pretty much stuck.
There are plenty of places where you work 9-to-5 (e.g. most government jobs, by the way).
I'm fairly certain that non-US citizens can't get jobs in the US government.
You are making a bargain: your time for money. If you don't like the terms, do not agree to the bargain.
I think his complaint had to do with the fact that H1B workers typically work longer hours for equal or even lower pay than American workers. Of course, any thinking American would be angry about this as well. After all, if companies can get immigrants to work harder for less money than Americans, there's a pretty strong incentive for these companies to hire immgrants rather than Americans, isn't there?
Looking out for your own interests, wouldn't it be better if there weren't any artificial advantages to hiring non-American workers? In particular, shouldn't American companies be forced to pay them the same wages, and shouldn't they (the foreign workers) be able to change jobs as easily as Americans? If this isn't the case (and it isn't), you end up with American companies preferring foreigners, because they're cheaper, do more work, and they're effectively "locked in" for the term of their visa. It's no wonder that high-tech companies would rather hire foreigners than Americans who only work 40 hours/week, demand raises, and leave if they don't get what they want...
If H1B workers and greencard applicants could switch jobs anywhere near as easily as American workers, I guarantee that the H1B quotas wouldn't even be reached the following year. High tech companies would start hiring Americans first, and only hiring H1B workers when they needed to. Is't that the way it should be?
Well, generally speaking, if you are not an American you cannot come live here at all. That is normal and it is as it should be. If you don't think so, try thinking through the consequences of allowing completely open immigration.
I'm not sure how you define "completely open". I certainly think immigration in the US coul be a lot more open than it is, and be better for Americans and "aliens" alike.
Besides, what have you done that makes you deserve special treatment? You were born here? Who cares? You are aware that alien workers (the INS term) pay taxes and social security, right?
Besides, isn't it strange: if US sucks so much, why so many people are willing to spend great effort and accept huge risks for a chance of living here?
Don't worry, the INS's policies are making the environment hostile enough that soon all of the high-tech companies will leave, or just hire people to do development overseas. Won't that be great for the American economy...
Is the INS on drugs? (Score:2)
Maybe the 'War on Drugs' should start attacking rogue government departments?
Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:2)
First thing, the price of higher education in the US. For the price of any US degree, any foreign student could probably afford 10 such degrees in a foreign country, so your poor foreign student better be wealthy if he wants to finance his US studies on his own.
Quality then? Well, having done my undergrad studies in Europe, and being a grad student/teacher in the US, I have had the opportunity to compare the quality of the education of my (foreign) collegues with the one offered to my (american) students. The difference is striking. Because most US universities are run like businesses, they almost guarantee a degree to anyone doing a minimum of work, which means almost no selection in the courses, and a very low level. I think it is also commomly accepted that high school education in the US is of very low level compared to many other countries, and that might be a factor as well.
Anyway, so, according to my observations, and people I have met, I would say that the best undergraduate education (for sciences at least) comes from India and Europe (Eastern and Western).
So why would the US want to give out student visas? According to me, to keep the level of their schools up. Americans don't want to go to Graduate School, so it is not unusual to see graduate departments be filled with foreign students. Just look at how many of your science TAs are americans, that will give you a hint. Simply said, graduate students are very low paid high quality teachers, and when selected carefully, increase the quality of the research at the school.
And why would I come study in the US if the quality of education is so much better in my home country? Well, I said UNDERGRADUATE education. Graduate education in the US is of very good quality, because US universities have a lot more money to put into it, and the best students from all over the world come to the US to get a graduate degree.
And after you've been living here for 4 years, working on some degree, isn't it normal you might consider staying?
Re:But opening US borders wide open unlimited is B (Score:2)
Don't vote republican or democrat.. really.. (Score:2)
If you really want to get rid of stupid government programs then vote Libertarian. They sound like they want to just Nix everything off the list. It's a good plan for getting oneself killed as a newly elected President but other than that it'd get rid of such programs as the NSA and woo even the INS. If there is no INS then it's way to hard to keep people out of our country so you have pretty much open borders.
Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:2)
Of course you have advantages to most countries in some ways, mostly because of the massive ammount of money in circulation, but i would definitely not say that "the whole purpose of the student visa was give foreign students who couldn't attend college in their home country a place to learn", most of the swedes I know who go to college in the us does it as a complement to their swedish education, mostly to get better at english and to be enabled to put international experience on their resumés. The us should definitely look over their immigration rules, a lot of people over here can't get a green card and go over there to work, this could damage the future development of as there _is_ good talent in other countries than the us (just look at linux, nokia, ericsson, mercedes benz, bmw, volvo etc. all european companies/products (ok, some of them bought, but you see what i'm pointing at...)
btw, you should keep in mind that the largest reason us colleges accept foreign students is that they want them to stay and work in the us. This isn't some kind of charity, it would be stupid to educate people and then send them away. One of swedens largest problems with foreign students is that they come here, take their education and then leave the country to work elsewhere - you can't get any work or money out of them that way - can you ?
Re:Immigration department overwhelmed (Score:2)
I'm glad you've had a positive experience. However, anecdotal evidence, while not false, does not refute the general case. This is similar to an 103-year-old man who says he's smoked a pack of cigarettes and drunk a quart of whiskey every day since he was 16 - it ignores the lung cancer and licer disease that affects most people who engage in similar behavior.
doing the same tech support jobs for Tandem
Nothing personal, but do you really think your company needed to go outside the US to find workers who were qualified? Do you think it's possible that they could have retained the workers they had that have left? Do you think they could have recruited more people? Do you think they could have trained high school graduates to do the same work? I do; I worked in tech support for three years, and unless you're doing some REALLY high speed stuff, it can be done quickly and easily by anyone with a brain.
Re:Obvious option doesn't work. (Score:2)
Yes I have. In fact, I married one. And am quite happy AND quite satisfied. . .
And as for IT ratios, the company I'm employed by is all-IT, and about 45% female. The "range" goes from OK to model-quality.
So much for both your stereotypes and your attitude.
Now, let's look at the MALES in IT, some of us are a pretty sorry lot. . . .
Re:Why work in the US? (Score:2)
Bullshit. First of all, you can change jobs provided you can persuade your new company to get you an H1B. Second, most people I know who work on H1Bs have an understanding with the company that after a couple of years, the company will sponsor that person for a green card. Yes, that works, I know a few people that did exactly this thing and they are now green card holders (or already citizens).
What other country in the world lets it's citizens work 90 hour weeks without a single hour of overtime?
Oh, spare me this crap. First of all, what do you mean "allows"? Do you want laws prohibiting your from working more than X hours per week? Second, there is a standard solution: Don't do it, then! If you don't like 90-hour-a-week jobs, don't work there. There are plenty of places where you work 9-to-5 (e.g. most government jobs, by the way). Oh, you say, but I like the pay and the options! Well, then, don't complain. You are making a bargain: your time for money. If you don't like the terms, do not agree to the bargain.
the whole reason for H1Bs is to get foreigners here to do those 90 hour weeks
So would you rather shut down this program altogether?
if you're not an American, you can only come here if you're willing to live like a second class citizen.
Well, generally speaking, if you are not an American you cannot come live here at all. That is normal and it is as it should be. If you don't think so, try thinking through the consequences of allowing completely open immigration.
Besides, isn't it strange: if US sucks so much, why so many people are willing to spend great effort and accept huge risks for a chance of living here?
Kaa
Different student visas (Score:2)
Second, to stay in the US you can: (1) apply for political asylum; (2) win a green card lottery; (3) get a work visa. All methods work (obviously, not for everybody and not all the time).
Generally, to get a work visa you need to find an employer who wants you so much that he is willing to jump through INS hoops to get you. Jumping through these hoops in not particularly hard, but it's a hassle. It's common for the company to agree to sponsor you for a green card one-two years down the road. I wouldn't go work for a company which would refuse to do this. It's not a legal obligation, but there is understanding that if they don't do this you'll leave.
In any case, staying in the US after a student visa is hard but definitely possible.
Kaa
One of the few serious answers here.... (Score:2)
There's lots of companies out there wanting talent, and your students have it. I know one student from Caclutta who had no problems getting hired by a large corporation. He finishes his degree in the spring and will start immediately after that, but the company has already flown him out twice for interviews and orientation. They're sponsoring him, and providing legal assistance.
Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:2)
Imagine if Einstein had remained in Germany and was forced to work on the Atomic bomb under Nazi rule...
I've been there (Score:2)
Most important: find a foreigner-friendly company. If a company has the processes in place to support foreign workers, your life will be much easier. This usually means that they won't mind hiring you in the training period of the F-1, that they will offer to file the H-1B and later do the Labor Certification for a Green Card. CAVEAT: a *lot* of the foreigner-friendly companies out there are H-1B slave-shops that will dangle the LCA and the Green Card in front of you for as long as they can while they'll pay you a 1/2-1/3 of the average in your position. Be especially careful when they are located in places without a kick-ass job market...
There are ways around the H-1B and the LCA: multinational companies can hire you out of a European, say, subsidiary and bring you back in the country with an L-1 or even a visitor's visa. Some off-shore contracting firms can bring you to work in the US while paying you in the home country. In this case you are not stuck in the LCA process (which can be brutal, long (2-3 yrs) and during which you really can't leave your employer unless you start all over again) but you will be stuck with the lower salary anyway, and you are not gonna get that Green Card...
If you qualify (i.e. you are not from one of the high-immigration countries, namely India, China, etc), do the Visa Lottery [state.gov]. The odds are pretty good for Europeans in particular (that's how I got out of the H-1B hole) and the process will take much less time and money than the LCA (2 years max).
In any case, good luck!
Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:2)
You are, indeed, mistaken. People who didn't have a chance to attend college in their home country comprise a tiny minority of student visa holders.
Undergraduate school requires that the students pay tuition. How many illiterate peasants from the middle of the jungle can afford to pay tuition in United States, plus travel expenses, etc?
Grad school, of course, requires prior undergrad education.
Far from being a form of charity, as you are trying to present it, it's a matter of - guess what? economics: supply and demand, in this case, for people and their brain power.
Re:We have enough foreigners as it is (Score:2)
//rdj
Invade the Country (Score:2)
You have to check (Score:2)
Re:Do not deserve to be here (Score:2)
Re:Go home? (Score:2)
For someone not trying to be racist or a troll, you're doing a pretty good job. Imagine what you could accomplish if you really tried.
Sarcasm aside, the only way to become a citizen (other than by birth or marriage) is to first reside in the U.S. For students seeking a legal way to do so, who are you to deny them? Consider that if people with your viewpoint had prevailed in the past, in all probability the U.S. would not be "your" country.
Re:Whatever happened to the American Dream? (Score:2)
When your relatives came over from Italy at the turn of the century, it is a virtual certainty that they settled in a neighborhood full of Italian immigrants, and that their day-to-day interactions with their neighbors and merchants were carried out in Italian. It was almost always the kids who learned English--many older immigrants never did fully master the language.
Your electricity provider has enough customers who speak other languages that it's worth their while to go to all the trouble of programming and recording all their telephone scripts in multiple languages. Get over it.
Personally, what annoys me no end is people who would make others lives more difficult (or even dangerous) just so they can avoid having to punch an extra button on the phone.
Re:Obvious option doesn't work. (Score:2)
Hey now, we don't have to go all crazy here. Nobody's THAT desperate for citizenship...
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Re:F1 Visa Notes (Score:2)
Note that one well. When I got one several years back my letter said just "Systems Analyst", not "COMPUTER Systems Analyst".
You wouldn't BELIEVE how hard it is to convince a good ol' Customs boy that if the job is programming, it's OBVIOUSLY "Computer" Systems Analyst even if it doesn't say that exactly...
How to stay in the US (Score:2)
If you are a foreign student studying in the US it can be a real challenge to stay in the US to work. Here are a couple of pieces of information that I assimilated during my application process.
Once the H1-B has been given your next goal is to go for a green card. This is typically at least 3 year process although it can be shorter if you have an advanced degree and the demand for green cards for your country is not too high (i.e. you are not from India). Since the inital H1-B is only granted for 3 years with a possible extension for another 3, you should really get moving on the green card process. The whole thing is a little easier if you are not trying to get your whole family to move over here with you and it is certianly easier if you happen to marry an american.
That is about all I know. Good luck
Advice to foreigners (Score:2)
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Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:3)
Of course it's an economic motive!
The question I have is: I think that thinking is totally unfair (and as unfair as the pejorative labels of "racist"). Moreover, I think that people who want to stay in the US should (as in morally should) want to be here because America is a great place to live, and offers democracy, constitutionally guaranteed freedoms, a honest judiciary in addition to economic opportunities. In short -- I want them to WANT to become Americans.
In short, I'm personally in favor of immigrants from ANYWHERE that want to come to America and BE AMERICANS -- this is what America is about.
For a whole laundry list of reasons, most of them economic, a lot of recent non-western immigrants have come to America not to be Americans but to be whatever culture they are in America -- not speaking English and not participating in the established culutural milieu. I think this is the wrong way around, and goes against the grain of the immigrants that have been successful AND accepted.
What's made immigrants successful long-term has been their willingness to be Americans, socially and culturally, not just their desire to make a fast buck.
Immigration department overwhelmed (Score:3)
Of course, this doesn't begin to address the question of whether or not companies should be permitted to import workers. Companies which claim that they need more or better qualified workers should detach themselves from the governmental teats long enough to develop better recruitment, retention, and training programs. Any corporation could have as many trained workers as they liked within two years if they were willing to pay for it. If they don't want to, why should we permit them the post-modern counterpart to slave labor - "Don't want to work 100 hour weeks for $30K/yr? Well, we'll just cancel our sponsorship of your visa and you can go home and live in squalor!"
Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Visas (Score:3)
Honestly, I really don't like the idea of someone coming over here on a student visa, and then wanting to stay after graduation. If I'm not mistaken, the whole purpose of the student visa was give foreign students who couldn't attend college in their home country a place to learn. This equips them to return to their home, and build a better life, community, state, nation.
But wow,... the idea that these students, who were so fortunate to be given a chance to better themselves,... to become the leaders of their home nations, suddenly want to stay. Is there an ulterior motive here? Perhaps an economic one?
Look people, Student Visas are part of a foreign affairs agenda which believes that by helping other countries become better, that we become a better global society. I fully support this, and have no problem with that.
BUT, H1B visas are only to provide temporary labor, when such a demand cannot be provided by citizens. Honestly, I think the system has been twisted into letting corporations obtain (for lack of better words) slave labor.
So for a person on a student visa to suddenly want to continue working in the United States is completely undermining the purpose of their original stay.
Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:3)
Look people, Student Visas are part of a foreign affairs agenda which believes that by helping other countries become better, that we become a better global society. I fully support this, and have no problem with that.
You seem to be very naive. The whole purpose of bringing bright students from other countries to US is to get them educated and ready to support US economy. They come here, they learn, maybe do some research (grad students), and then they become productive members of US society. Reason they do it? US can't educate enough people in lower levels of education, send them to their colleges and fill those high-tech jobs. I know, 'cause at my school in my departament every other student is from outside US. My two roommates are from outside, and two out of three of my office mates are from outside. So am I.
US doesn't care about other countries, if it doesn't benefit US.
m
Come to Canada! (Score:3)
Find a Sponsoring Employer.... (Score:3)
- Make sure that all students have done an internship with local or regional employers. This gives them a chance to get a sponsoring employer when it is time for green cards/H1B visas.
- Have a counselor experienced in INS hoorah. Other
/. topics have explored the inequities of the system. Other posts have done a good job of trolling about racism and isolationism.
There is no good way to get a work permit in the US without a sponsoring employer. See the rules on H-1B visas [ins.gov] and stuff on becoming a lawful [ins.gov] resident.The major difficulty is that green cards are granted by country. Once your country has used up its number of green cards - you're up a creek. The other major difficulty is that immigration is usually by family status, rather than by educational status or training..
Again, if you want students to have a sponsoring employer after graduation, you must work on outside employment issues at all times after the second term of school.
Re:Student Visas aren't supposed to become Work Vi (Score:3)
The above says a lot about your own mentality/motives, btw.
The thing is, I would bet that you never have experienced what it is like to be poor. And you are led to believe, by the media primarily, that everyone's aspiration is to become rich. And you think that poor people would be especially striving to prosper.
Not nesessarily true. There are many societies who are not very much "richer" than the primitive people of stone age. I come from one. However, none of them envy the rich america. In fact, most of them scorn it for its greediness. Only if they get exposed to the corruptive influence of mass media (invariably sponsored by big bucks) do they start mistakenly thinking they need more in terms of "wealth".
Also, being an American you probably haven't experienced what it is like to NOT be free, have a police regime in your country and/or be politically and/or phisically opressed. From my own experience and observations of my fellow-immigrants to this country, the ones who are most happy here are the ones who came here in search of freedom, and found it. The most unhappy ones are invariably those who came here to materially better their lives, which was not hard to do once you are in the states. Compared to their "middle-class" income in their native country, flipping burgers at mcdonalds provided them with everything they didn't have back home. But once that was achieved, they didn't have anything else to strive for.
I suggest you get to know a couple recent immigrants and talk with them about their life. You will be surprised...
F1 Visa Notes (Score:4)
Eligibility Requirements
The problems with it were that ISSO takes 3 months or more to process the forms, and you really need to submit 3-4 months in advance of graduation. And then there were potential problems leaving the country in between. Since I was Canadian, I looked into getting a TN (NAFTA) visa. Much simpler. You just need a letter offering employment, $56, proof of education, and a profession on the approved list. It took fifteen minutes to get the visa, but make sure your appointment letter says the exact same job title as the jobs list (e.g. Computer Systems Analyst, Engineer, Mathematician, Scientific technician/technologist, Technical publications writer, Astronomer, Biochemist, Biologist, Geneticist, Physicist). The disadvantages to the TN visa
Actually... (Score:4)
1. On the overtime work/pay situation, the rest of the world is "catching up" with the US in terms of the the amount of overtime and absence of overtime pay. My firm recently standardized the overtime policy to keep in line with the American situation...most of Asia stopped paying overtime pay for IT people about two years ago, and Europe is not far behind. I think this trend is true for most "multi-national" IT firms, and most startups follow the same model. So, between working for a third-world salary vs. what-would-have-gotten-in-the-US, I think I'd pick the US option.
2. About the lack of humanity...I've found that American managers (at least in my firm) are more "human" than my home country managers. They bother to check if you have a personal life (which most Asian managers don't care about or won't even ask about due to cultural blocks). What I find really nice is the "Work hard, play hard" policy that most Americans adhere to...In Asia, the ability to balance one's personal life and work is lopsided towards work...probably due to cultural and economic factors.
3. Admittedly, it is hard to secure an H1B visa. Does it mean that the policy is racist or short-sighted? Might...but in this case, the benefit of the doubt should be cast. I come from a country where graft and corruption are part of official govt. procedures and redtape is used to print our money. Hate to sound desperate or un-nationalistic...but I'd probably jump-ship the first chance I get (which some of you probably wanted to hear...but that would be OT).
Top things you can do: (Score:4)
From someone who works w/ the INS on a regular basis:
1) Start early: Many applications don't go through due to procrastination on the part of the applicant. Many of these processes take months or even years. And don't wait for your current residency to expire before looking for the next one.
2) Check your work: There are tons of hoops you have to jump through and they are not well marked. The INS won't always helpfully remind you when you have a problem. Only warning here is not to pester the INS too much-- that could delay your answer.
3) Get assistance: Some lawyers specialize in immigration issues. Talk to one-- she'll be able to give you advice which is tailored to your particular case. Or talk to your congressional office-- they have people who know the rules and can explain them to you. Your company can also help-- IF you plan on staying there long enough for them to benefit.
Re:We have enough foreigners as it is (Score:5)
Americans need to realize that immigrants not only work harder than natives (have you ever met a Hispanic migrant farm worker who works less than 13 hours a day?), but contribute more to society. These people come to the US because they believe they can find something better. They are willing to work for the privelege of the American Dream (TM). Perhaps instead of berating the former engineer from Kenya, you should thank him for being willing to mop your floor, despite the fact he is better trained and more intelligent than you.
Flipside is that rampant immigration can cause problems. California is definately a case for this. Southern Texas has PO box towns where Mexicans receive their Soc Sec checks before returning south of the border. But, in general, these are rare and isolated cases.
Whatever happened to the American Dream? (Score:5)
Unless your ancestors came to the U.S. as slaves or transported criminals, they too came here with an ulterior motive, seeking a better life for themselves and their descendants. You are the beneficiary of this, and you might want to consider how it looks for you to want to deny others the opportunities that your ancestors had.
Give us your poor and huddled masses, yearning to breathe free...
Why work in the US? (Score:5)
Let's face it, the Government in it's "heroic" efforts to keep control of the fast-changing employment situation here in the US is not making it easy for foreign people to work here - even if you get an H1B you end up stuck in the same job for your entire period and then get kicked out the country like an illegal immegrant. Hardly an inspiring direction to take your life in.
And then there's the amazing lack of humanity in the majority of America's employers. What other country in the world lets it's citizens work 90 hour weeks without a single hour of overtime? Oh yeah, that's right, the whole reason for H1Bs is to get foreigners here to do those 90 hour weeks, and they don't even have to give you the same rights as nationals (not that America provides many for them either).
America's entire policy on foreigners working there is both rascist and short-sighted. For a country built from immegrants and minimal government, recent political viewpoints seem to be tending towards a xenophobic attitude in which only America counts, and if you're not an American, you can only come here if you're willing to live like a second class citizen.
Try another country - there are IT opportunities across the world, and in most places you won't get nearly as much shit as you'll be put through by the US government.