IE 5.5 Tracking Default Bookmarks 262
Paul Guinnessy writes: "Has anyone else noticed that the default bookmarks in Microsoft Explorer 5.5 do not go directly to a site such as cnn.com, but instead go via a redirection via Microsoft. I'm just a bit curious (and a bit uncomfortable) to know what they will gain in gathering this sort of personal information. " There's been a lot of slimey stuff with browsers (remember the What's Related problems not so long ago?). I guess I'm glad Mozilla is coming of age. As long as Web sites don't start doing something stupid like requiring IE... oh... wait.
Boy did you blow it (Score:2)
And this is just the very tip of the iceberg of the shit we know about.
Coming across what appears to be, at first glance, another MS ploy amongst the thousands that we've already seen, it's not hard to make that assumption that they're at it again. And if they appear to be at it again, it behooves /. to try to get to the details. and if there's a little backlash of any sort, it's just the Slashdaughters demanding accuracy out of /. and wanting to prove how bright they are.
And you could have taken advantage of that by gently nudging, saying something like "Just because it's MS, don't assume the worst!" That might have prevented the next MS expose. But you went off the deep end. trying to paint MS as Apple-like and noble, which is quite frankly naive. Just a few penniless guys in their garage -- out of Harvard with rich, connected and powerful parents like the rest of us. No more dirty tricks than any other company? Pfaugghh! They tried to play dirty tricks during their own federal anti-trust trial!
And as far as Win2000 goes, since MS-DOS 2.1, the hype always says that the next MS operating system is always supposed to be the "really good one". There are 65535 bugs that tell us to reserve granting that title to this one.
Study history, pal, or you'd better keep good backups.
--
How about pulling their chain a bit? (Score:1)
Re:I find it disturbing that.... (Score:1)
But this is more of an indictment of Windows than IE. If IE ran on Linux, you'd see the same behavior as with Netscape.
The only things I have ever seen "crash" Linux are games using the SVGAlib. Even then Linux is still running, just the console is totally fscked and you have to telnet in.
Re:the *default* bookmarks only? (Score:1)
Big Bill is Watching Y@@ (Oh, yes he is!) (Score:2)
What those crazy guys in Redmond won't do for a buck!
Vote [dragonswest.com] Naked 2000
Re:WARNING! slashdot banner ads redirect you!! (Score:1)
This whole thing is hardly original... everybody's darling Netscape have been doing this for years.
This will be useful prior art for when Microsoft try to patent the idea, so let's hope they incorporate it in mozilla under the GPL.
Of course, none of this would ever have happened if Sun had stayed out of the software business and left language development to the professionals.
why redirection? maybe ... (Score:1)
sites are moving (or ceasing exist while new ones emerges) from time to time (some more often, som less).
browser can be there for a long time (longer than sites).
so to prevent broken built in bookmarks in browser it's reasonable to store redirectors in browser (URLs maintained by browser supplier which redirets you to desired functional site).
of course, there is another question whether special bookmars supplied by browser vendor are good especialy if they have some special advantages over user's bookmarks (i.e. non removeble, better positioned, ...).
Then why doesn't Netscape do it? Hmm? HMMM??? (Score:1)
I'll tell ya why. When I use Netscape and click on my /. bookmark, it takes me right there. Same with my
Freefall [purrsia.com] bookmark, my
User Friendly [userfriendly.org] bookmark, my
news [theglobeandmail.com] bookmark, and even my
play [sodaplay.com] bookmark. Direct. No redirects.
But now Micro$oft comes along and says, "Hey, we can make money off this too!" and starts doing redirects with their strong-armed browser market. Load balancing? Hit tracking? Bullshit. Let MY ISP deal with load balancing, or the sites that I'm actually going to (notice none of them are M$). Ditto with hit tracking.
Basically, M$ has no NEED to redirect. They just decided to do it and grab MORE information from those who happen to use IE (not me!!) and yet further bend the Internet public over and have their way with us.
Re: (Score:1)
Re:WARNING! slashdot banner ads redirect you!! (Score:2)
Why is it inherently evil when Microsoft does it?
Well, you are on Slashdot. Home of the paranoid Linux faithful and poorly filtered "news" articles.
Do you need more of an explanation?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
Re:version check (Score:1)
Re:WARNING! slashdot banner ads redirect you!! (Score:2)
Re:Well not exactly... (Score:2)
this [body-armour.com] is some site selling personal protection items (don't ask how I stumbled upon that one)
And our intranet was IE only in practice for weeks.
I agree that a web agency who does a IE only site makes a lousy job. unless the customer specifically said "skip Netscape I'll not pay for that"
See my other post [slashdot.org] in this thread.
I agree that time is running out for Mozilla.
Re:I find it disturbing that.... (Score:1)
This rings soooo true.
I develop on linux so I'm damned well going to support netscape, and supporting ie goes without saying.. as for the rest.. well.. netscape's available for most platforms, my time is limited and my boss wants unportable features on the client side. I try to argue for the lowest common denominator, but I don't always win. Sorry, opera and lynx, I'd love to do things right but I gotta eat.
I hope gecko gets into every nook and cranny eventually, and explorer dies an embarrassing death. How cool would it be to defeat a browser bug by going through it's source?
Re:Let's all do this: (Score:5)
watch wget http://www.microsoft.com/isapi/redir.dll?prd=linu
this makes a request to microsoft every two seconds. It doesn't do the redirection, but just makes the request from microsoft's site.
Re:Let's all do this: (Score:2)
Re:funky icons (Score:1)
there is a restriction of 16x16 pixels or something, and I think it only works with IE...
funky icons (Score:2)
Re:The IE version check? (Score:1)
Me being paranoid, I wonder if MS is checking for a new version or if Bill is getting an email that says, I too, am watching jenna16.mpg. So I setup my firewall to prevent that connection.
Just ta' be safe, you know.
Re:IE4+ sme thing (make that 3) (Score:1)
The first thing I noticed when I had it downloaded is that none of the things in the links toolbar went exactly where they said they were going. Second thing I did was to delete all of them.
IE4+ sme thing (Score:1)
Tracking because this is advertising (Score:1)
Is this a surprise? (Score:1)
Matt
Re:the *default* bookmarks only? (Score:1)
----------------------------------------
Re:Let's all do this: (Score:1)
So it would be much easier to make it sleep 10 seconds between runs.
Re:There may be an innocent reason (Score:1)
They don't have to redirect for that, but as far as I'm concerned, IE might send info about every page one visits to MS. Has anyone checked with netstat under IE on Solaris?
THey certainly don't seem to mind looking really, really bullish.
Netscape does exactly the same. (Score:2)
Re:Crap! (Score:1)
But "arrogant crap"?! I feel fairly well qualified to talk about what clients want from a website. The view from the development side is completely different. I've worked on tons of web projects and one thing I've learned is that you have to specify exactly what browsers you're supporting. Clients don't care about NS until their aunt / sponsors / children look at the site and can't see it. Then they ring you up and demand to know what's wrong. And not just on NS, also on IE3.02, IE4.5 on a Mac, just about whatever ancient or badly written browser that's ever been made. As long as NS has more than 10% of the morket, 99% of my clients will care about it.
No-one else noticed the DNS errors? (Score:1)
IE5 contacts MSN and then displays the Cannot find server page.
The IE version check? (Score:2)
Maybe someone's just a bit paranoid?
the *default* bookmarks only? (Score:4)
Re:IE4+ sme thing (Score:1)
Revenue: lets stop and think about this (Score:1)
Re:Well not exactly... (Score:2)
Re:HOWTO: Kill Personal Toolbar Folder in Netscape (Score:1)
Hey, don't go too hard on Marketing. They're how Netscape makes (or at least used to make) money.
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Bookmark files (was ...hasty?) (Score:2)
It's not just IE (Score:1)
Re:the *default* bookmarks only? (Score:2)
That whole homepage discussion is off-base. I've seen IE pop up the microsoft-update location in the status bar on occasion when first launching the browser, don't think it actually does that for each and every load of your homepage. And as you say, if you had no outside net access at all, it certainly wouldn't work at all.
Gotta read the parent posts a little more closely, i guess.
Re:I find it disturbing that.... (Score:1)
Re:Backlash towards Slashdot finally? (Score:1)
I hate MS as much as the next ./er, but this story is irresponible posting.
Later...
time to pimp *opera* browser again (Score:1)
opera [opera.com]
Deja does the same thing. So does Netscape (Score:1)
How about the links in Netscape?
This is old news
Eric
Re:IE only Sites (Score:1)
Netscape sucks, the only reason I use it is because I use Linux and it's the least bad graphical browser for it. IE rules, and the two reasons I don't use it is 1) I don't have Windows and 2) I have personal ethical objections against Microsoft's marketing tactics.
But that doesn't keep me from admitting that MS IE is indeed the best browser out there at the moment.
)O(
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
This kind of web tracking is becoming commonplace. (Score:1)
There's two reasons, each similar to the other: Downloader/Visitor Tracking. FilePlanet runs a tally of how many people are downloading what files, as well as isolating which section of the world is downloading what (for bandwidth distribution and avoiding long distance downloads); both of these reasons are honorable. However, we all know what Microsoft is interested in with these "isapi" links: pure demographics for the purpose of enhancing revenue. By tracking which browser version connects, along with which version of Windows (if it is windows, hehe) and the IP (to home in on a region), Microsoft can distribute more or less copies of its software to specific regions. Personally, I started to question Slashdots exclusive use of perl scripts, but then, how else could the /. pages update so quickly? Too bad CmdrTaco never deletes stories altogether. Though this seems Orwellian, that Compaq GPL flub is one blaring example.
Re:There may be an innocent reason (Score:1)
"search" is *much* worse (Score:1)
this happens whenever you type some unfinished url. now maybe that's just me... but i do it all the time. this behavior can be turned off, but the option is buried deeply into the preferences and ordinary people won't change it.
of course, joe public will also use the standard msn search for all searches and have msn.com every time they open the browser.
those things are much bigger issues than the URL redirect. i am not sure how to express my distaste for this kind of behavior - but it really pisses me off.
not that netscape is any better. netscape IS OWNED BY AOL NOW. hello-o?!
BTW i just read in business week that 72% of americans are annoyed about the extent of corporate power. i hope the backlash is coming.
Re:the *default* bookmarks only? (Score:1)
Can you explain to me exactly how it manages to do this when there is NO network connection between my PC and the outside world, please?
Not even the Evil Gates can manage to transfer TCP/IP through several thousand miles of thin air, you know!
Re:WARNING! slashdot banner ads redirect you!! (Score:1)
--John
Re:WARNING! slashdot banner ads redirect you!! (Score:1)
Um, no. When I select a link from my Netscape bookmarks, I go right to the site. No queries or redirects from Microsoft or even Netscape, for that matter.
Granted, banner ads are a different matter, but we wouldn't want to get too far off topic, would we ;)
Re:As a webuser... (Score:3)
In fact, we didn't even use bookmarks. We memorized IP addresses - no sissy domain names for us - and typed them in manually. Why, back in my day we didn't even have web pages, we had web paragraphs, because our computers didn't have enough memory. And we LIKED IT!"
...
I'm all for responsible use of HTML and sticking close to standards. But there is value in an aesthetically pleasing site as well. And the sad fact is, recent versions of IE (for the Mac at least) are more standards compliant than anything Netscape is shipping to date.
And while I can already hear the chants of 'Mozilla! Mozilla! Mozilla!', let me remind you that Mozilla defies some equally important standards - intra-platform user interface consistancy.
Barring that, it's still not released. And it's very, very late.
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
Re:Opera, , icab, gecko (k-meleon) (Score:3)
Really nice browser, but the competitors are free(beer).
Gecko
Too low on features. Do you know how many sites require Javascript today? I know Javascript sucks and that you should never build a site that depends on it, but nevertheless, without it you are effectively shut out from a large percentage of sites.
icab
Mac only. Plus the same problems as Gecko.
Show me a browser that is stable, supports the most frequent add-ons to html (like Javascript), is free(beer and preferably speech) AND FINISHED and I'll jump for joy.
Requiring IE (Score:2)
It's a sad day but unfortunately, if you want a site that utilizes anything more than basic HTML these days without crashing, IE is what you have to code for. Opera is ok but lacks key layout aspects that IE can handle and Netscape has mutated simply into a blob of useless crap.
Last I checked, 90%+ people on my sites used IE, so why shouldn't I write specifically for it?
Oh yeah, and I never use the default bookmarks.
Re:WARNING! slashdot banner ads redirect you!! (Score:2)
Add microsft.com to the list of banned sites in IE... find out how often you really are there...
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Re:Except that Netscape does exactly the same thin (Score:2)
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Re:funky icons (Score:2)
Re:No, only the default bookmarks do this (Score:3)
In the summary - "...the default bookmarks in..." again, we see the word "default" being used directly before "bookmarks". Strange coincidence, or ignorant, overmoderated, trolling parent post? You be the judge.
(at least read the *title* of the article before ou post - you don't need to do this sort of crap to bash Slashdot - There's plenty of legitimate claims...)
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Re:Boy did you blow it (Score:2)
Sorry man, that's Microsoft's reported number, not mine, from a ZDNet news story [zdnet.com].
SP1 for W2K was released to fix approximately 200 issues, many bugs and some cosmetics. That's it. That's all they could find and all anyone reported.
So now you know: there are still about 65000 bugs in your OS. And how much did you pay?
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Re:Microsoft Mystique (Score:2)
They are now spending billions of dollars on research because they have so much disposable cash. They didn't use to. None of their major current product lines are based in any interesting way on the results of their research, and whether they ever will remains an open question.
Gates's attitudes towards research spending were widely reported in the press in the early 90's; you can dig it up yourself. If you were in research at the time, that was a big deal.
I didn't say Microsoft was any worse than other big companies. I took issue with your claims that Microsoft got to their current position through innovation. Nonsense. Microsoft is a succesful business because of hardball business tactics, quite a bit of luck, some questionable practices, and excellent marketing.
Technologically, what they are selling is largely still behind what was state-of-the-art in research labs in the 1980's (but, then, so are Linux and MacOS; the industry as a whole has stagnated).
No, that's not "ALL" you tried to say. The story was clearly inaccurate, as I pointed out myself. But you also went off on a lengthy exposition about Microsoft's supposed innovations and software skills. That's where you are just as wrong as the original story was.
Face it, Microsoft is a big company, no better and no worse than other big companies. Claiming that Microsoft makes high-quality, innovative software is like claiming that MacDonald's makes high-quality, innovative cuisine. In reality, both make cheap products for the masses; the good stuff clearly happens elsewhere.
Re:WARNING! slashdot banner ads redirect you!! (Score:2)
Back in the day, Hemos and Taco tracked web browsers visiting
Re:funky icons (Score:2)
One last thing, there was a bug in the way IE 5 handles a bad favicon.ico file. I don't recall if it was fixed with the "Favorites fix" for IE a while back. More info can be found here [cip.com.br].
I told you not to use that browser... (Score:2)
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Re:Backlash towards Slashdot finally? (Score:2)
It's true that if there's something bad to be said about Microsoft, you'll probably read it here first. However, I think some of your defense is a little over-stated.
I can't comment on the "feature packed"-ness of ie, since I don't use it. Netscape sure hasn't caught up in the number of security issues, though - Internet Explorer had about one per week for a while there, didn't it? Maybe a few less features and a little more thought would have been in order.
I don't approve of "dirty tricks" on the part of any company, but there is a legal distinction in the U.S. when it comes to such actions on the part of a market monopoly. Like it or not, Microsoft is held to a higher standard (rightfully, IMHO) in its business dealings since it significantly greater power as a monopoly than if it were just one of a number of competitors in a market.
In the hypersensitive world of free software and Linux, it would have been impossible for Red Hat to get to where it is without being "nice". Even as they are now, distributing their primary products for free and contributing thousands of dollars of hacker salary back into community Linux development, there are constant fears that Red Hat will become the next Microsoft. There is very little trust of big, unresponsive corporations in the Linux market, such that I can't believe that Red Hat has been getting away with MS-like tactics on the sly. Do you have specifics?
-- ethereal, who isn't normally a big RH defender, and definitely has no IPO buzz goin' on (the very thought makes me chuckle :)
Konqueror (Score:2)
lot faster than both Netscape and IE.
It supports Netscape plugins (e.g. for Flash)
and has a cool ftp client.
It allows you to set your own cookie policy:
you can make it ask whether you accept a cookie,
and then you can reject them by site. So no
more cookies from doubleclick - and I'll never
be asked about them either.
So definately: there is a serious competitor out
there. I admit it's still beta, but this is
something which can overtake IE. Go get it and
submit bug reports!
Re:Um, aren't we a little hasty? (Score:2)
Pretty please, pretty please, can I have a good browser for Linux???
... so TURN THE (Shop, Radio) BUTTONS OFF!
From the Version Notes at http://home.net scape.com/eng/mozilla/4.7/relnotes/windows-4.75.h
No comment on the buttons, they look fine to me at 1152x864 resolution.
Andy
---
Microsoft Mystique (Score:2)
Microsoft's success stories have mostly been achieved by copying products and ideas from other companies like Apple, Lotus, Sun, Bell Labs, IBM, and others. What they have been been "working hard" on is cloning other people's software. Gates even used to brag about the fact that he didn't have to spend any money on research--he'd just copy Apple (now that hardly anybody else is left, they have to do their own R&D). And Microsoft's pyramid-scheme-like stock option plans and accounting practices put many money-burning startups to shame--Microsoft is not the enormously successful and profitable company you seem to think they are.
No, Microsoft is not the "Borg cube", but they are generally not an innovative company either, and they have engaged, and continue to engage, in a lot of questionable business practices.
And, coming back to the core of this story, Microsoft clearly puts a low priority on security, quality, professionalism, safety, and privacy. The fact that Netscape isn't much better is irrelevant. Microsoft is not a startup anymore, and neither are they a fly-by-night company in the Arizona desert anymore. They are the market leader, one of the biggest US corporations, and in that position, they ought to behave responsibly in all these areas. If they don't, it's completely justifiable to take them to task. You see, with billions in revenue comes a lot of responsibility and exposure.
Um, aren't we a little hasty? (Score:5)
The redirection URL is http://home.netscape.com/bookmark/(version)/(book
Take a look at http://home.netscape.com/bookmark/ [netscape.com] to see all supported versions.
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Re:the *default* bookmarks only? (Score:2)
Um, yes, they would. Go back and read the post you replied to again.
All they need to do is send a header saying "Location: http://myservername/" and your browser will go there. Your browser. Not Microsoft -- they don't need to connect to anything. All they need to do is send the location to your browser, which has the exact same effect as you typing it in the Address field.
--
Block it (Score:2)
:)
__
Sample Session (Score:2)
GET http://www.microsoft.com/isapi/redir.dll?prd=Wind
Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/vnd.ms-
powerpoint, application/vnd.ms-excel, application/msword, */*
Accept-Language: en-us
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 4.0; y)
Host: www.microsoft.com
Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
And it gets back:
HTTP/1.0 302 Moved Temporarily
Location: http://stream.cnet.com
Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Length: 145
Age: 0
X-Cache: MISS from x.x.x.com
Proxy-Connection: keep-alive
<head><title>Document Moved</title></head>
<body><h1>Object Moved</h1>This document may be found <a HREF="http://stream.cnet.com">here</a></body>HTTP
In other words, it's not sending any extra information, and it's very plausible that MS would use it to 1) redirect to a current, correct URL for the given services, and 2) verify usage of the latest version of the browser. In other words, nothing sinister, even if they're keeping statistics on which links are used -- if they don't have statistics, then they won't know which URLs to keep and which to trash.
Sigh.
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Re:the *default* bookmarks only? (Score:2)
http://www.microsoft.com/isapi/redir.dll?prd=ie
Optimistically speaking (Score:2)
MS does a lot of research into HCI (Human computer Interaction). By redirecting their default bookmarks to MS first, they can track how well their default bookmarks are used. They may also see any trends in bookmark usage. For example:
- If a user visit one sports site, they visit many sports sites, but no business sites
-
Or someone visiting a science site tends to also visit cooking sites.
This information can then be used to create predictions about how a majority use bookmarks and possible creeate a system to help the needs of that majority.Unfortunately:
Re:Boy did you blow it (Score:2)
So is Death one of those newfangled embedded operating systems?
Simon
Re:Javascript (Score:2)
But I'm not talking /. readers. I'm talking about the vast majority of web users. Their opinion on what "sucks" differ from yours and mine. The sad truth is that those flashy Javascript ridden websites *work*. When I try to explain to people that they shouldn't have Javascript turned on I get a questioned look and eventually remarks like. "Well, but I have never had any problems, and my favourite site won't work without it. (Damnit our corporate homepage demands Javascript. Quite embarassing, but not my desicion)
In a nutshell: Geeks no longer have final say on the web.
HOWTO: Kill Personal Toolbar Folder in Netscape (Score:2)
I believe what you want to do is:
user_pref("custtoolbar.has_toolbar_folder", false);
If you look at the big-ass file on netscape.com that describes preferences.js, you'll see this is a "reserved" setting, with a note to the effect of "we're not gonna tell you what it does, 'cuz we don't want you fuckin' with it".
If that doesn't work, also try adding:
user_pref("custtoolbar.personal_toolbar.Version" , 0);
user_pref("custtoolbar.personal_toolbar_folder", "Netscape_engineers_are_weenies");
Fuck them and the marketers they rode in on. And that goes for Nutscrape and Internet Exploiter.
The same thing as banner adds on slashdot. (Score:2)
This should not be suprising to anybody who hasn't been under a rock for the last few years, remember how much power Microsoft seemed to wield during the DOJ anti-trust trials just by being able to keep somebodies icon on or off of the desk top.
Re:Microsoft Mystique (Score:2)
As for all the other stuff, I'm not in the Linux vs. Windows mindset like you seem to be. As I said, I think both Linux and Windows are outdated and old technology and both have copied liberally from their predecessors. But Linux doesn't pretend to do anything else, nor does Linux cost an arm and a leg. My point is not that Microsoft is necessarily worse, my point is that they are technologically at best no better than the rest, but they sure are a lot more expensive and a lot more proprietary, and they try to lock you into their world.
Similar feature already exists (Score:2)
I hope you know that everytime you bookmark a page in IE5.x, it automatically request a custom "Favorites Icon" from the bookmarked site.
What this means is that the site's webmaster know exactly what page you bookmarked (plus the time, IP, etc).
There may be an innocent reason (Score:5)
MOD THIS UP (Score:2)
thanks,
-Jon
Re:Um, aren't we a little hasty? (Score:2)
I recently installed a new 4.75 and it absolutely refused to let me have my old bookmark file copied in. I copied it in and chowned it root and made it user read only and they still deleted it. Fuckers. I copied my config files from another machine which had been upgraded and the problem went away. Must be a variable in prefs, but it's irritating as hell.
However, I think MS IE is far worse as it has so many features which are sneakier.
Let's all do this: (Score:5)
h ttp://www.microsoft.com/isapi/redir.dll?prd=linux
and if we all do the same, it'll really throw the Microsoft statistics gatherers. "This month we got 34,432 redirections for the Windows page and 485,550 redirections in a category of 'linux'".
Possible explaination (Score:4)
That leaves convincing the browser producers to use your link as a default. Microsoft and Netscape very likely get payed to put those links there, and naturally they are going to want to track the usage of those links, so that they can see which ones are beneficial and which ones are duds. The purchasers of the default link would no doubt be interested in those statistics as well.
I have no idea if this is the case, but it seems to fit together for me.
Slow News Day? (Score:2)
IE has had bookmarks that redirect through the MS version checker since 4.0.
This is not news.
I suggest that the
--
Corel Do the Same with their Linux (Score:4)
Re:The IE version check? (Score:3)
I haven't read it anywhere officially, but I'm pretty sure that IE does this to check for version updates. ie. Every x times you run IE, it'll go to the redirection page instead of directly to your homepage. If a new version has been released it'll redirect to a microsoft announcement/download page instead of where you normally start.
To turn it off, go to tools / internet options / advanced, and tell it not to automatically check for Internet Explorer updates.
===
Re:I find it disturbing that.... (Score:5)
I'd love to. unfortunately I lack time and skill to code my own browser (if I want something more than text, at least)
But the sad state of affairs is that INTERNET EXPLORER CURRENTLY IS THE ONLY BROWSER THAT FUCKING WORKS!
Don't tell me about standards and how the evil empire embraces and extends. I'm talking reality here. So many sites uses MS specific code that I'll always need IE as a backup. I do web pages for a living. (or rather the heavy stuff behind the pages, not the stupid html/javascript shit) and I see why Microsoft is winning. It is easy. They give people what they want!
People want "cool" sites. I know it is stupid, and so do you, but the other 99% of the web surfers think those flash intros and AciveX gizmos are nice. If a page renders and updates faster in IE than netscape, people will use IE. If a page is inaccessible with Lynx, nobody will use Lynx (exept hard core geeks and disabled persons) If people get a virus because of shitty security in IE and windows they will complain about "that damned Gates" and continue to use Windows and IE because they work. Someone will switch to Linux only to find that his favorite web site no longer works. (and that Netscape crashed three times) "Sorry, Linus. Nice system and all, but I'll stick to windows, since they have this working web browser."
I'm worried, because if there is not a serious competitor to MSIE out there soon we will have a MS proprietary web.
Boy, am I pessimistic today?
BUGTRAQ's cookie issue in MSIE 5+ (Score:4)
"Guille Bisho" wrote in message
news:39B84795.8A32DC4F@redestb.es...
(snip possible good catch)
Good possiblity something fishy going on there. The XMLHTTP object is installed and registered with IE5 and functions without prompt under default settings. The example code below will send an HTTP request to MS, fetch and parse as html the response:
<script>
function SubmitTrackingInfo(){
var objHTTP = new ActiveXObject
("Microsoft.XMLHTTP")
objHTTP.open("GET", "http://www.microsoft.com", false)
objHTTP.send()
xmlDoc=objHTTP.responseText
document.write("" + xmlDoc + "")
}
SubmitTrackingInfo()
</script>
In the case of the search.msn.com example. There is additional data being sent back to the server: objHTTP.send("BSTR")}function fnInit(store). Clearly the name of the function firing all this: "SubmitTrackingInfo" can suggest some things. More so the recent "ballyhoo'd" anouncement by MS to allow greater control over privacy for their customers, with the addition of a "cookie" privacy control add-on for Internet Explorer 5:
http://www. microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/jul00/07-20c ookies.asp [microsoft.com]
So, while _everyone_ else's "cookies" are curtailed by this privacy add-on for Internet Explorer, Microsoft's operations utilise this method of 'non-cookie" tracking?
Conspiracy theory of course ;-) but perhaps worth investigating thoroughly
by someone with experience as to what exactly is going on?
Occam's Razor indicates (relative) innocence (Score:2)
But if you think about it, Microsoft could already do that even without using redirs. The obviously have a "partnership" with the companies at those links--they could just ask each company to send them data on people who arrive from those links (by adding some data to the URL, by sending a special header, whatever--better yet, just track ALL IE users to those companies--or why limit to IE users?). Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by slightly less malice.
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
Re:Um, aren't we a little hasty? (Score:2)
Hell, Mozilla is doing the same thing. (Current, from CVS built about a half hour ago.)
WARNING! slashdot banner ads redirect you!! (Score:5)
http://images.slashdot.org/cgi-bin/adlog.pl?art
This is a link from a
Sorry, just feeling a bit paranoid this morning... web redirects are nothing new. They can be used for a variety of legitimate features such as load balancing, randomizing, hit tracking, etc etc. Why is it inherently evil when Microsoft does it?
Re:the *default* bookmarks only? (Score:2)
Several others have pointed out that you can turn this off. Its under "Advanced Options", though, so 99.99% of IE users probably do not turn it off.
I have had the dubious pleasure of being an internal IT guy at a company where the firewall would not allow connections to the outside world except from certain priveledged internal IPs.
(Yes, this was done on purpose. Yes, I know how many ways there are to thwart this kind of policy, but I wasn't interested in getting fired).
IE still worked on the local intranet, whether or not the PC could get to microsoft.com, except when it tried to run these upgrades. The upgrades wouldn't have worked anyway, probably, since most people were running NT with a "user" level account.
Still, is it true that the upgrade process actually goes through the redirect, thereby informing microsoft of what your homepage is? There is no legitimate excuse for that!
Re:I find it disturbing that.... (Score:5)
Customer: I want a site that looks something like this, and I want these functions on it ...and YYY $ extra to get it to work with Netscape
Developer: OK That will cost XX $ for IE users.
Customer: Uhm OK
Developer:
Customer: YYY $ extra? Why?
Developer: Well, IE and NS have some different features. Those functions you described are easier to make for IE
Customer: OK I guess you know what you are talking about. I assume we must support Netscape too
Developer: And then there are some other browsers. If you want them supported you must cut back on functionality, or make a parallell low-feature site.
Customer: an extra site just in case someone doesn't use IE or Netscape?
Developer: Yes to catch everybody
Customer: Guess I don't want to lose any customers. How much would that be?
Developer: ZZ $
Customer: ZZ $? How many are using omething else than the major two browsers?
Developer: Less than one percent of your target group, I'd say
Customer: OK here is the deal. Start making my site for IE users. Then you can add functionality for Netscape (if they are still around then). I don't think we'll bother with the rest.
Developer: Are you sure? It might not look so good if some people can't even access your site.
Customer: Yeah, but it would cost too much. And most people does have IE somewhere if they really want to get here don't they?
Developer: Yes. Lynx and Opera users are used to being shut out. They may complain, but they'll know how to get aroud the problem.
Re:There may be an innocent reason (Score:4)
10.3.2 301 Moved Permanently
The requested resource has been assigned a new permanent URI and any future references to this resource SHOULD use one of the returned URIs. Clients with link editing capabilities ought to automatically re-link references to the Request-URI to one or more of the new references returned by the server, where possible.
(my emphasis). If MS had set things up so that the URLs were like http://www.ms.com/redir?news_service_1 , and were switching between providers, then yes I would agree with you that this was a valid argument, but thats not what they're at.
As long as they dont mess with *my* bookmarks I don't mind, I've never yet felt the need to use the ones supplied by the browser vendors.
*sigh* (Score:2)
My preferred browser? IE. Has been for a long time. Never liked how slow and how much memory Netscape grabbed (esp. the java VM). Also never liked how animated GIFs used to consume 100% of the CPU. Been trying Mozilla, but it looks about 8 months away from completion.
Goes to show ya' can't tell on Slashdot what's sarcasm, and what's zealotry. My mistake for not clicking the Preview button.
Re:As a webuser... (Score:2)
There's nothing wrong with a visually appealing website, but too many people (usually corporate types) think that in order to be visually appealing, a website must have Flash, javascript and frames. Good, pretty, functional, web design can be done without any of these evils (look at Slashdot for proof of this!).
The best looking designs needn't be the most technically impressive - Melon Dezign's Amiga demos in the early 1990s proved that the prettiest things are not necessarily the most technically advanced. Someone with good design skills can make something useable and visually impressive, without the need for much complexity. Complexity is often added in order to hide a fundamentally poor design.
Backlash towards Slashdot finally? (Score:2)
Windows products ain't perfect but NEITHER is Linux (or any *nix for that matter).
But - IE's been out for a while and since version 4 it's been stable, fast and feature packed - Netscape and others can't hold a candle to it. Windows 2000 proves MS can finally get it right - there hasn't been a single _true_ negative story about W2K here that I can remember. There are millions using these products who've noticed - hey... I'm not crashing. What is this BSOD people talked about? It just works. MS ain't stealing my personal diary nor is it paying me to say good things about it.
Now this absolutely stupid story comes out from one of the biggest MS haters on-line and perhaps people have finally had enough. Come on Taco, did you take a second to notice that every other browser does this as well? Don't you know your own site tracks the comings and goings of it's users? How about those banner ads? Are you so desperate to slam MS? Your users have noticed and I wonder if enough of them were willing to risk some karma to speak out and tell the truth: Some MS products don't suck. Gates is not a borg and MS isn't a huge death cube from a billion light years away - it's just a hugely successful company that started out much MUCH smaller than any of the current linux companies who rode the wave and sucked down millions/billions in IPO and VC moneys from the unwise. MS came outta a dream of two people without any cash - kinda like Apple. They worked hard and played hard ball to get where they are. If you used any "dirty tricks" - I think no more than any other successful company (wanna check Oracle's records? Novells? Even Apple isn't lilly white. And if you think Red Hat got to where it is just cause it's being "nice" - well... just think about it and review those news stories AFTER the IPO buzz faded).
Anyway, sorry for the long post - I just think a backlash against unnecessary paranoia might be long overdue. If you got a legit beef and can prove it - hell yeah, great, go for it. But, if you have to resort to mud slinging like this in order to make your personal enemy look bad (especially if the mud could equally be thrown at yourself) - you only make yourself look desperate and show us all that you feel you are on the losing side and going down.
Just MHO of course, YMMV.
db
(now, lets see if there are any honest moderators)
Could they be doing this to set GUIDs? (Score:2)
http://www.pc-help.org/privacy/ms_guid.htm
That I found linked from SecurityFocus.com
Scary stuff, no? And if you block refers AND cookies you CANNOT navigate their sites as it supposedly gets caught into some sort of loop. If you've got cookies turned off they use refers to track you on their site using a GUID set in the URL and then hidden with a redirect! Just turning off cookies isn't good enough anymore! Thankfully for me @Guard can block refers too, a real shame Symantec bought the product and turned it into crap!
Interesting that this came about just as IE was about to introduce tools to block 3rd party cookies isn't it? Create a feature but make sure YOU are immune from it - cute.
Supposedly the Ad Banner folks are really up in arms about this new security feature in IE and are "meeting with MSFT". Gee, what do you think "meeting" means? Little money moving around maybe?
It's been found that 3rd party sites can redirect through the MSFT GUID server and use the GUID just fine - wonder if the ad banners will start doing that now. And you thought being tracked with an SSN was bad?!
Welcome to the 'net - here's your GUID and if you don't accept it you can't go anywhere. Here thought I had to worry about the Congress Critters trying to create some sort of silly Internet License - Microsoft has apparently not waited on them! Let's hope this practice doesn't spread and that bringing this slimy thing to the light of day will make it wither and die...
Re:IT'S CHECKING FOR PRODUCT UPDATES! (Score:2)
But it's the truth.
Are you sure that works? (Score:2)
This shows how Microsoft is still clueless about the enterprise market.
Re:Then why doesn't Netscape do it? Hmm? HMMM??? (Score:2)
Yup, you're right. As we are all aware enough not to be taken by this, then why on earth is this even a /. story? Oh well..