What Happened To Intervideo's Linux DVD Player?

A singular node from the Anonymous Coward Collective asks: "Several months ago when the storm first blew up about the cracked DVD code enabling Linux users to view DVDs on their chosen platform, Intervideo rode a wave of publicity drawing geeks worldwide to their site by announcing their upcoming 'legal' DVD player for Linux to be available in the second quarter 2000. June came and went and I contacted their sales people who informed me that it would be available at the end of July. It wasn't. I contacted their PR people and was told that it would be available at the end of August. No show. In the meantime, thousands of geeks have gone to their site to be entertained by the wonderful awards they have won for their Windows software. No mention of Linux. The press release has disappeared from their home page as well. Did this software really exist, or was it all just a pathetic publicity stunt? Does anyone out there know the answer?" I'd think quite a few uf us would like to know the answer to this one. What happened, Intervideo?

Could it be, "Vaporware"?

[Hairy_Potter]

Yes, really, some promised software projects never materialize, they're called vaporware.

If thery were trying to forestall competition, like a certain company in Seattle, it would be called FUD.

Or maybe they decided all the geeks who wantd to watch DVD;s on the Linux boxes had DecSS, in which we would be to blame.

It doesn't matter anyhow, I'd rather watch a DVD on my TV, with a beer and a bong in my hand, usign a $129 DVD player, rather than mucking about in front of my 15 inch monitor.

Does anyone else find it amusing

[Mtgman]

That a question which only Intervideo can answer is being posted as a "Ask Slashdot"?

Ask Slashdot, if we don't know, we'll make something up.

Steven

Are these the same people...?

[Prior Restraint]

I know that prior to the DeCSS case, part of the MPAA's attempt to spin everything their way was to claim that a Linux DVD player already existed, or was in the works, or something like that. Were they referring to Intervideo, another company, or was it a bald-faced lie?

What are we going to do about it?

[spyrral]

So if it is a stunt, which seems likely with the vanishing press release, what can we do about this. Here we have a company trying to make $$$ off open source and Linux without giving anything back. This is going to sound vindictive, but is there anything LEGAL we can do to hurt Intervideo, teach them a little lesson maybe?

Of course, maybe they just didn't have the skills to make the player, and are too embarrassed to admit it.

Nothing

[DzugZug]

IANAL but Im pretty sure there is nothing we can do about it. They weren't advertising. They were simply announcing their intention to write a player. They changed their mind. The legal have done nothing wrong. There is no tort, no fraud, and no breach of contract.

Time to use that Money Machine!

[Accipiter]

Come on, Slashdot Staff! You've got clout! Instead of posting an "Ask Slashdot" article (Which, most of the answers would be speculation anyway...), why not call up Intervideo and ask them directly?

Or ask for an interview! Get one of the high-ranking officials on the horn, and field some questions! If you call them up, and they say "A representative from Slashdot is on the phone", I doubt they'll blow you off. If they do, that adds fuel to our side of the argument. "They keep delaying the release, they pulled information from their pages, and they refused an interview." That would say a lot right there.

On the other hand, if they ACCEPT the interview, we'd get some answers as to what's going on.

I'm sorry, but posting this as an "Ask Slashdot" piece seems like a lazy way out. We'd get no answers to the question that can be held as proof - merely speculation as to what "Might have happened." (Unless an Interview Employee replies, but that's not very interactive/informative.)

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

Legality

[Eric Seppanen]

I think that despite the recent ruling for the MPAA in New York, it would be inappropriate to call reverse-engineered, open-source DVD code "illegal". The MPAA and DVD-CCA would absolutely love it if everyone started calling this code "illegal" because they are fighting as much of a publicity battle as they are a legal battle.

Please, consider calling such code "unlicensed" instead. The distinction is that all other DVD player software has a CSS license from DVD-CCA.
--

The press release

[spyrral]

Ok, I just went to the Intervideo site and checked their press releases. The LinDVD anouncement is still there. I guess this makes me look like a bit of a prick. Still, it makes the entire article rather irrelevant. all we have here is late software.

Here's to vaporware

[.sig]

My guess it that by 'second quarter of 2000', they meant the millenium... i.e., sometime between 2250 and 2500. (+- a year to take into account nitpicking on when the millenium actually starts)
Until then, I'm more than happy with a dual-boot machine at home, with windows for games & stuff, and linux for development.

Disappearing press release? NOT!

[StenD]

The press release has disappeared from their home page as well.

Did you bother to look on the Press Releases link? The press release is here [intervideo.com].

Press Release *is* there!

[Danborg]

I had no trouble finding the Linux DVD player software press release, here's the url:
http://www.intervideo.c om/news/28/InterVideoLinDVDFinal.htm [intervideo.com]

It's real, and it's nearly finished.

[Twilight1]

Yup, we've seen it. We were interested in co-developing the hardware decoding for our laptops... however, they are not interested in bringing in any outside developers.

The version we saw running on a Dell Inspiron 5000 was nearly fully functional. It was feature complete, and they had just added the ability to use the mouse cursor to control the on-screen DVD extra cool things.

We should be getting a beta version soon to test with our laptops. In the meantime, the rest of you will just have to wait.

Aparrently, it will be a software only player. However, they are investigating a plugin type API to allow third parties to write drivers for hardware decoders.

Anyway... just wanted to say that it is DEFINITELY not vapourware... though I still want an open source player to come to fruit. :-)

Economic Analysis

[tyrann98]

Another possible reason may be that Intervideo decided that they could not make money with the small Linux DVD market. Presently the Linux market is just too small for some commercial ventures. If we take a look at the Quake III sales under Linux they are pathetic. While this will change when more Linux desktops become available, Intervideo is not out to promote Linux necessarily but to make a buck.

Look at how many OS/2 developers are really willing to create OS/2 games?

It's not the only one...

[LinuxTek]

Cyberlink [gocyberlink.com] is asking for IA developers (beats me what that means) for its Linux version of PowerDVD...

Maybe SOME day we will have a commercial product.

PowerDVD

[Tiersten]

Intervideo isn't the only company that have announced commercial DVD software for Linux.

CyberLink [cyberlink.com.tw] have also announced a Linux version of their DVD [gocyberlink.com] player.

There is no details about when it will be released or even if it has been completed. Only a few lines where they ask for developers to contact them for more information.

- Tiersten

DeCSS

[gizz_butt]

My wife is pregnant and due very shortly. Naturally, we're both geeks and are always looking for ways to help the Open Source community. What would happen if we were to name our child using selected parts of the DeCSS source code? Admitedly, weddings and funerals might be a problem, but other than that, I'm sure we'd manage (After all, these should both be many years off). Would the local hospital records department end up getting sued?

here's what i was told...

[bball99]

after i emailed a question on Intervideo's support page in the last week or so, i rec'd a reply stating to the effect that "LinDVD has been sent to OEMs for evaluation, and I can't tell you much more than that."

so at least i got a reply, but that's not helping me with playing DVDs under Linux...

anyone have a simple, step-by-step procedure with software that works under 2.2.15, 2.2.16, or 2.2.17?

Check the archives

[Alan Shutko]

When this last came up [slashdot.org] it was said that it had been released to OEMs, but nobody had found an oem to comment.

Looks like that's still the case.

Release the

[AbbyNormal]

hounds^H^H^H^H^H^H Script Kiddies!!!!!!!!

This opinion property of Vapor Ware Inc. All Rights Reserved for nothing.

Idea for slashdot(OT)

[mplex]

I have seen other discussion sites do this so it is not original. I think slashdot needs an option to mail the replies to a posted comment to your email address. I know I'm not the only person that sometimes forgets to recheck answers to questions asked ect. This should be so simple to implement and there could be a limit of email alerts/day or whatever. Well?...

Re:maybe just my ignorance...

[raygundan]

DVD-ROM drives made before Jan 1st were not required to do hardware enforcement of the region codes. Which drives had or didn't have region code enforcement can be found at places like www.dvdutils.com. At that time, the only region enforcement was in software, and of course patches have been written for every software player under the sun to disable this

New (RPC-2) DVD-ROM drives have "hardware" region code support (meaning the drive does it-- not just the software). Some of these drives can be "patched" with a modified firmware upgrade. Some can't.

Sigma Designs is doing better...

[ravi_n]

Sigma Designs (makers of the Hollywood+ DVD decoder cards) has released a driver for their NetStream 2000 card for Linux here [sigmadesigns.com]. These drivers apparently include source code according to their FAQ [sigmadesigns.com]. Of course, this is not a big deal because the "interesting" parts of a DVD player are implemented in hardware. Someone is also working on a DVD player application [sourceforge.net] built around this driver, though it is not clear how far along that project is.

New Business Plan

[Deep_Blue]

Obviously they've seen the fate of other commercial Linux products so they've decided to make an annoucement for a product they intend to release "sometime real soon " and meanwhille get some upfront money out of banner ads.
So everybody rush and click through their pages....oh yeah and post the link to their web page more often on Slashdot.!

Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with DVD player software is:

a) There is a fairly small market of people who want to watch a DVD sitting at their computer.

b) Even fewer of these people use Linux

c) Even fewer of THESE people are unwilling to dual boot.

d) Even fewer of THESE people are willing to pay for software to replace the software that runs under Windows that came with their comptuer and/or DVD drive.

e) Set top DVD players are very cheap these days.

Besides E, this is the same problem most Linux software faces. The sad truth is most Win32 software works perfectly fine for 99% of the people who use it. It's hard to justify wasting the time and money to cater to a *very* small market.

Re:maybe just my ignorance...

[Anonymous Coward]

Many software DVD players (PowerDVD, WinDVD)initially set the region code based on the first disk you insert. They also have a configuration option to let you manually change the player's region code a finite number of times (5 or so) which is a limitation actually coded into the physical DVD drives by the manufacturers.

Re:Time to use that Money Machine!

[sips]

Come on, Slashdot Staff! You've got clout! Instead of posting an "Ask Slashdot" article (Which, most of the answers would be speculation anyway...), why not call up
Intervideo and ask them directly?

Or ask for an interview! Get one of the high-ranking officials on the horn, and field some questions! If you call them up, and they say "A representative from Slashdot is
on the phone", I doubt they'll blow you off. If they do, that adds fuel to our side of the argument. "They keep delaying the release, they pulled information from their
pages, and they refused an interview." That would say a lot right there.

It's not a sure thing. Plus how do you know that they *didn't* try to get one?

I'm sorry, but posting this as an "Ask Slashdot" piece seems like a lazy way out. We'd get no answers to the question that can be held as proof - merely speculation as
to what "Might have happened." (Unless an Interview Employee replies, but that's not very interactive/informative.)

I don't think it's that bad of an idea given lack of genuine information.

Re:Legality EXACTLY

[GMontag]

Thank you for seeing the real issue, Eric.

It still boggles my mind that writing one's own instructions for a device (DVD player) and sharing them with the world can be called "illegal" in the first place.

There was no instance of "trade secrets" being compromised, if there were and insider of one of the licensed vendors or the consortium would have been on trial instead of Eric aka Emmanuel and 2600 magazine.

There was no instance of copyright infringement, DeCSS is origonal work not a copy.

Calling DeCSS "illegal" is nonsense, just as saying that a "licensed" program is "legal".

If the MPAA can find a pirated and cracked copy of it's own software then they have a point, but until then they are just blowing crap (along with that Amish* judge that they rented).

*no offense to any Amish folk reading or hearing about this post ;-)

Visit DC2600 [dc2600.com]

Irony?

[thunder-in-pants]

From the MPAA FAQ [mpaa.org]:

Computers that use the Linux operating system. Windows- and Macintosh-based computers can play DVDs, so is it fair to deprive the Linux community?

The Linux argument is a false issue. It has always been in the interest of the Motion Picture industry that there be as many legitimately licensed DVD players as possible, including those using non-Windows operating systems. However the argument that DeCSS was written for Linux players is simply false. The De-CSS utility was written for Windows-based software, not Linux.

Also, the development of two, separate, licensed DVD players for Linux systems - which use the CSS system - were recently announced. Sigma Designs (www.sigmadesigns.com) and InterVideo Inc. (www.intervideo.com) both announced the roll-out of LICENSED, LEGAL Linux-based DVD players.

The irony is there isn't a sigmadesigns.com and InterVideo is still trying to roll out their LICENSED, LEGAL Linux-based DVD player, meanwhile anyone with the mind to can use DeCSS to do it now. One would think the MPAA would have a vested interest in speeding the production of a Linux based DVD player just to quell this argument.

Re:DeCSS

[Accipiter]

Isn't that a little bit sick?

Would you really want to put your child through that kind of torment? Having a name like "static byte csstab1[256]" "The Other Kids(tm) would have a field day making fun of your child, and all because you had to come up with an idiotic way of distributing the source code. Find a smarter way of doing it.

(It's inefficient anyway - it's not feasible to have the entire source code as your kid's name, and "selected parts" would be useless.)

I'm REALLY hoping this is a troll. If it's not, here's hoping your child is strong enough to remain sane because his parents decided to name him something like "lfsr0 = ((im[4] >8)&0xff] >16)&0xff]>24)&0xff];"

You might as well call the kid "Prince".

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

Interviews

[Grace Hopper]

When's the last time we actually had a /. interview, anyway?
--

Re:DeCSS

[sjames]

What would happen if we were to name our child using selected parts of the DeCSS source code?

If enough geek parents do that, eventually the process of marrage will yield a SUPER DeCSS strain that is resistant to all known legal tactics.

Re:DeCSS

[Drey]

Your child would grow up angry and disillusioned, and would likely be beaten routinely on the playground and have his/her lunch money stolen ... then Jon Katz would write an article about it.
--

Re: Slashdot

[Accipiter]

Sorry, but you can't tell me that a company that is supposedly developing Linux software has never heard of Slashdot.

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

Re:What are we going to do about it?

[Brave Little Toaster]

but I think that if they directly state that they will release it at such and such a date, and then don't they are probably in breach of something or other...there are some laws about companies using false advirtising

It's only a breach of contract or false advertising if you already paid for the player and are now not getting it. From what I can see, Intervideo didn't take anyone's money for this- there were no "order now and be the first on your block to have one" type deals. All they did was send out a press release.

Now I think it sucks that they didn't actually release a player, but they didn't do anything illegal. It's just dissapointing.

--

Vaporware.. or MPAA puppet?

[d.valued]

Wouldn't it be interesting if both houses creating 'legal Linux DVD players' were strong-armed by the DVD CCA to claim a Linux project for a prop of the DMCA case vs. 2600.

Re:If the MPAA is a monopoly we all win!

[AntiNorm]

The MPAA is a non-profit organization, actually. They've covered their asses really well with that one. It seems like the companies within the MPAA are into some form of collusion or another, however.

But if they're a non-profit organization, why are they raising such a big stink over "licensed" players (i.e. ones that they have received extra $$$ for)?

=================================

"It" has BEEN finished for months

[GMontag]

DeCSS is a LEGAL DVD player for Linux and UNIX. Why bother with a commercial version?

DeCSS has been out for months, it works, it does not use any origonal code so it is not a copyright violation. No insider contributed to it's development so there is no trade secret issue.

The judge and MPAA can say a dog has 5 legs all they want, but the dog still has only 4, DeCSS is not a violation of any law.

If you buy into the "license" making it legal then perhaps automobile companies can start licensing maps for use with their vehicles. If someone is caught in an Explorer with an "unlicensed" instruction device (the origonal work map) then Ford can bring criminal charges against the map maker. Sound pretty? Not to me and that is EXACTLY what the MPAA was arguing in federal court.

If that is the world you want, then by all means, wait for these bozo's to finish their vaporware. However, NOBODY is going to dictate to me what instructions to send to my own property.

It is amazing that a cursor functionality is holding them up for months, sounds like BS to me.

Visit DC2600 [dc2600.com]

Re:DeCSS

[ocelotbob]

Make their middle name the DeCSS source code. That way, it gets into the official records, plus they don't get picked on like they would be if you were to use DeCSS as their first name.

THE PRESS RELEASE IS STILL THERE!

[abe_kabakoff]

Check it out: http://intervideo.com/news/ 28/InterVideoLinDVDFinal.htm [intervideo.com]
Geez, check these things out for yourselves. (it is only 2 clicks off the front page!)

yeah its a real good "player"

[ArchieBunker]

DeCSS "plays" dvds? I don't think so. Lets see I fire it up and wait about 15 minutes. Wow it dumped a 4 gig file on my drive. Thats one hell of a player.

Re:Irony?

[cryosis]

It looks like Sigma Designs does have a Linux DVD player out ONLY for their NetStream 2000 decoder cards. I don't have a DVD driver or a Sigma card so I can't tell you if it works or not, but it exists. Would be lots nicer if it didn't require hardware, but it's a start.

Life is a disease, sexually transmitted and fatal.

Re:"It" has BEEN finished for months

[Twilight1]

FWIW, I don't think the cursor functionality was holding them up... it was just the last thing they had most recently finished when they showed us a demo.

I agree, I can't find anything illegal in DeCSS, but companies can't play the lawyer game, especially if their focus isn't even really related to DVD decoding.

I'm a member of the EFF... I have my own DeCSS mirror [procyon.com], but that doesn't mean I should completely drop commercial implementations. OSS is about choice and freedom. Don't fall into the GNU mindset that it has to be free or it's unacceptable. Can't we all just get along? Sheesh...

Remember, when playing the lawyer game, it's not about who is right or wrong... it's who has the most money.

Re:"It" has BEEN finished for months

[kinnunen]

DeCSS is a LEGAL DVD player for Linux and UNIX. Why bother with a commercial version?

Get a clue. DeCSS is not a DVD player, it is just a tool to decrypt the MPEG2 video stream. You need an MPEG2-player to watch the movie..

--

Re:DeCSS

[dmccarty]

What would happen if we were to name our child using selected parts of the DeCSS source code?

And which selected part of the over 2,500 words [copyleft.net] would you like to name your little one?
--

What about Linux 2.4?

[ross.w]

So just because the words "deCSS", DVD, Linux & Commercial appear together in an article, the conspiracy theorists start frothing at the mouth.

Perhaps they are just ironing the bugs out before they release it? One of the criticisms levelled commercial software is that it is all too often rushed to market without proper testing. Maybe these people aren't like that.

After all, this is the reason Linux 2.4 is still awaiting full release, even though it was promised for April. I don't hear Linus Torvalds being accused of having hidden agendas (not that I'm doing that, I just think people are being a bit unfair here.)

Ask Intervideo

[sulli]

Maybe it's a strategic relationship, in which "Ask Intervideo" moves to Slashdot, and "Ask Slashdot" moves to Intervideo. Think Synergy! Alliances! Coopetition for the New Millennium!

Please excues my fox pass, here are the HOWTOs

[GMontag]

OKAY, DeCSS is not a full player, it is just a critical piece that you need to make a functional player.

Here is the full HOWTO for Linux:
http://helo.org/dvd/howto/DVD-Playing-HOWTO

and for FreeBSD:
http://www.opendvd.org/fbsddvd.php3

Thank you all for correcting my memory loss during my fit of babbling.

Visit DC2600 [dc2600.com]

Re:"It" has BEEN finished for months

[Ralph Wiggam]

I know what you're trying to say and I agree with you in principle, but I want to call you out for this line...

The judge and MPAA can say a dog has 5 legs all they want, but the dog still has only 4, DeCSS is not a violation of any law.

The MPAA can say the sky is orange and we can all ignore them. But when the old folks in the robes say something, even stupid things, it matters. In America we have a long and complicated process to review legal rulings so that no one judge or even one court can decide something by themselves. But a judges job description basically say, "given these laws and this constitution and these case facts, decide what's legal and what's not." If we don't agree with that ruling, we have options like writing/calling/stalking our congrespeople. And after that, civil disobedience is in the arsenal if you have the guts. But ignoring a ruling and deciding something is legal because you believe it won't fly.

-B

Re:Are these the same people...?

[Azog]

Sigma Designs has a DVD player for Linux that is available right now. You can get it at:

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/d ownload_ns2000_linux.htm [sigmadesigns.com].

The FAQ is at http://www.sigmadesigns.com/faq_linux.htm [sigmadesigns.com].

However, this driver only works for the NetStream 2000 card, not their popular Hollywood Plus card (which is very similar to the Creative Labs DXR3). Also, it is pretty much a command-line thing at the moment, but I'm sure somebody could make nice graphical wrappers for it.

The important bits are closed source, because of the CSS issue, but they include sample code for interfacing with the MPEG2 driver and some other useful things.


Torrey Hoffman (Azog)

Is it PCFriendly?

[Malc]

What I want to know is whether it will by PCFriendly (i.e. the InterActual Player 2.0 [interactual.com])? Or, will I still have to boot into Windows or find another DVD player to participate in their online events?

DVD player, LAME style?

[golden spud]

So since lots of people have the DeCSS source code, why not start a project to create a patch to it much the same way as LAME did with the Fraunhaufer MP3 encoder?

I'm not into the type of programming required for this but the way LAME morphed from being a patch to being a full fledged independent program was pretty interesting to say the least.

Perhaps this would be a way to develop and open source DVD player for Linux - while legal battles are happening, people still code. When it all blows over you'll either still have the patch that lets you play DVDs, or (hopefully) be able to turn the patch into an independent program.

anchors and associations

[drnomad]

Maybe the association DVD Linux is put wrongly by the MPAA and co. Such as there are people whom claim that 'mp3' is illegal, it could be possible the anchor for DVD Linux is in the wrong place. (i.e. DVD on Linux is illegal)

Guys were harrassed, guys got scared and project was sent to the bin.

But there are legal DVD players for Linux now...

Maybe the process of getting threatened happened in an early stage, if it did, it never stopped.

Keep using DeCSS, etc

[praedor]

Well, there IS an alternative that also gives onea viceral pleasure by tweaking the nose of the MPAA...download and keep using DeCSS/dvd-munitions.

They are STILL widely and easily available.

Re:DeCSS

[Amphigory]

Hehe. My wife is having twins. Muahahahhahahahah!

--

Saw it at CEBIT

[james b]

Intervideo had a tiny stand at CEBIT in Hannover this year. They had a computer running linux, with the player shown to be working.

At that time it was very flaky, and I guessed it didn't have any CSS decoding built-in - the disc they were demoing was a promo-disc of some sort that I assumed didn't have any encryption.

I tried to play with it a little, but the sales guy shooed me away, saying something like "very new software! Pre-alpha quality!".

Press Release is still there ..

[bearclaw]

Not that it means much, but the press release *is* still on their web site. If you go to:

http://www.intervideo.c om/news/28/InterVideoLinDVDFinal.htm [intervideo.com]


And it is accessible form the 'Press Releases' link on their front page. Please make sure of these things before posting...

Not the first vaporware

[jms]

Guess it's easier to write press releases then to write software.

Re:Legality EXACTLY

[Hard_Code]

I can even tolerate restricting otherwise free speech and allowed behavior when there is clear and present danger (yelling "Fire", stalking somebody, publishing hit lists and telling people to go murder people on the list).

But DeCSS is as harmless as it gets. There is absolutely 0 threat that a bunch of letters and numbers on somebody's hard drive is going to harm anybody in any way.

Actually it's sort of scary when you step back and think about information itself (without regard to the process by which it was obtained) being branded legal or illegal. "This is information that you are allowed to have. This is information that you are not allowed to have."

Re:"It" has BEEN finished for months

[QuoteMstr]

Moderators, this was *not* a troll. His arguments are valid, and he brings up good points.

As someone else said, "the crack must be especially strong today."

Re:Time to use that Money Machine!

[Hard_Code]

"BEE DO DEEP"
"Sorry, the number you have dialed is unavailable. We are currently being Slashdotted. Please hang up and try again in an hour"

Call it "competitive".

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Please, consider calling such code "unlicensed" instead. The distinction is that all other DVD player software has a CSS license from DVD-CCA.

Better yet, call it "competitive". That brings one of OUR issues - violation of antitrust law - back to people's attention.

Fraud on the court

[www.sorehands.com]

The MPAA used the existance of a Linux version to deflate the legal use of DeCSS. I would hope that in the next oral arguments, that gets the MPAA slapped in the face by the court.

Re:It's real, and it's nearly finished.

[David A. Madore]

though I still want an open source player to come to fruit

Try xmovie [linuxave.net]. It is really nice, it is Open Source, and it comes with DeCSS integrated. Beware, however, that it is really a pain to compile (and there is nothing remotely resembling documentation).

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:"It" has BEEN finished for months

[MaxGrant]

comment >>"But ignoring a ruling and deciding something is legal because you believe it won't fly."

.sig >>"Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun" -Ash

Your .sig is apparently having a conflict of interest with your post.

Re:Sigma Designs is doing better...

[lunatik17]

The NetStream2000 is a high-end MPEG streaming card, not something most people will be able to afford. Also, it is labeled a "corporate or institutional product only," in other words, regular consumers are out of luck even if they do have the money. They released Linux drivers because this card is for server streaming and stuff like that. Besides, a lot of us already have cards and are not about to shell out more money for another one.

Re:"It" has BEEN finished for months

[Ralph Wiggam]

My sig is
1) The first good short movie quote I thought of.
2) A statement about the seperation of power and morality in the modern world.

-B

PCFriendly is a "PC" of crap

[Ian Schmidt]

Even accounting for the fact that I run it on Win98, I've never come across a DVD title using it that functions properly. Not only does it blindly assume and require that your desktop be 640x480, it crashes/hangs/bluescreens frequently. I can never get more than 3 or 4 questions into the quiz from the Matrix, and a lot of people I know can't get the software to load at all or detect their DVD-ROM drive.

Someone should reverse-engineer that and come up with a working alternative - that would have a market.

Preferring set-top boxes

[Alan Shutko]

I'd prefer to watch a DVD on my TV with surround (still stuck with prologic, but it's better than nothing), but when waiting for a delayed plane, or stuck on call late some weekend waiting for a long process to complete, it's nice to be able to fire up my laptop and watch a movie. After all, it's much more portable than my TV/stereo/DVD player at home.

Re: Slashdot

[sillysally]

I was going to make a joke about a company that had never heard of Slashdot (till they were sorry they did) but I can't remember the name of it... what was that "Linux" company that was going to go public but they didn't really have a distro of their own, then they put one up and it was totally ripped off and bogus... I can't remember their name. And what ever happened to them?

Re:PCFriendly is a "PC" of crap

[Malc]

I run it under NT4 with the Creative DXR3 just fine.

Yes, on my 1280x1024 screen, it does have a blank area around it, but it certainly doesn't target 640x480.

As I understand it, a lot of the problems with the Matrix DVD were more to do with the DVD hardware and software drivers. Apparently The Matrix used a lot features in the DVD spec that the [earlier] hardware, etc, didn't support properly: hardly PCFriendly's fault. PCFriendly isn't a DVD Player as such, it uses the underlying software drivers. Ever notice how it uses IE, with movie the embedded within that? You better not hope that it detects the Microsoft navigator instead of the OEM one!

I also think that it might require newer versions of IE. The only real issue that I have with those events was that I have to wait several minutes after joining before the movie starts player. But that's Creative's fault, not PCFriendly's... my drive can only be sychronised by chapter, not time. Before attempting to reverse engineer the product to improve experience, make sure that you have the latest stuff that it uses, including the drivers from your hardware manufacturer, and a reasonably current version of IE.

Anyway, I was refering to the product that will replace PCFriendly. ;)

Finally, if you're really bothered by PCFriendly, why not contact their support? Gosh! I had a problem to do with PCFriendly alterting the auto-play on my machine. I posted a question to microsoft.public.win2000.general. One of the PCFriendly support people answered very quickly, and with a correct answer. Impressive!

Re:"It" has BEEN finished for months

[Sloppy]

DeCSS is a LEGAL DVD player for Linux and UNIX.

No, DeCSS is a Windoze program which served as the basis for cssauth, which is a component of a DVD player. Saying DeCSS is a DVD player is like saying that a steering wheel is a car.

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Re:Fraud on the court

[www.sorehands.com]

Very simple.

If the MPAA used as an argument that there is a Linux compatiable DVD player, therefore the compatibility defense argument of must fail. Then, if the lawyer knew this was not true, it would be fraud on the court.

Re:Fraud on the court

[Sloppy]

There isn't a DVD player built into many people's Lazy-Boy recliners, either. That doesn't mean that every Lazy-Boy recliner owner is entitled to use DVD ripping utilities to convert Hollywood films to 8mm for his home movie projector...

Why not?

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Re:DVD licensing terms

[spitzak]

You seem to be a bit confused about something:

It is possible to run a closed-source program on Linux!

This is certainly what any commercial offering expected will be: closed.

Even the RIAA might not mind open-sourced drivers for the types of sealed hardware they are interested in selling in the future, I hope this has taught them that even closed-source software drivers provide almost no protection whatsoever.

If the software is just like a remote control, and the image is decoded by hardware and goes straight from the player to the display card (not through system memory) then open-source gives them many advantages: a kool-looking ui with no work on their part, new navigation ideas, and quite possibly people will tell them about holes in their hardware security and suggest ways to fix them.

Re:Irony?

[Sloppy]

No. There is no license agreement for DVDs. You are free to do anything you wish with them, as long as it isn't something prohibited by copyright law.

But remember that in USA, copyright law changed in 1998. Starting next month, nobody is allowed to watch a DVD in USA, unless they have "authorization" from the copyright holder.

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Re:Hmm

[Sloppy]

There's another problem that you left out: the existing 2.2-based Linux distributions are unable to read a DVD's filesystem correctly. You either have to use 2.4, or patch and recompile your 2.2 kernel.

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CSS and open source kernel

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux has an open source kernel which makes protecting CSS decryption impossible. How can you protect CSS and DVD data if anyone can hack the kernel and snoop at what the DVD player is doing. Sure, you could write a DVD player in such a way to make it difficult but there is no way to sufficiently protect CSS and the DVD data. This is why you will never see a legal DVD player for Linux unless CSS is done in hardware (as with Sigma Designs DVD player) or it is being used in a closed box system (i.e. settop box) where upgrading the kernel is impossible (or CSS is opened up).

Re:DVD licensing terms

[tjansen]

>>It is possible to run a closed-source program on Linux!

Of course, but it does not help you if the whole infrastructure is open. To make a DVD player safe in the MPAA sense it may not be enough to provide only a closed-source DVD player but also closed-source video drivers that turn on Macrovision on the graphic card's TV-out and will not allow the user to turn it off while a DVD is played. And if the graphic card does not support macrovision, the DVD player must refuse the play the DVD. Or the X Windows system allows to capture the video output. It may be neccessary to turn this off to play a DVD "safely".

Re:Legality

[ethereal]

CSS, which is the only technology affected by DeCSS, is not patented. It is a licensed trade secret, but reverse engineering is a legal way to produce a product which contains the trade secret technology and can be distributed without the license. Now if the DVDCCA had patented CSS, then they would have legal grounds to prevent such products as DeCSS. On the other hand, if CSS was patented then all of the technical details would be exposed before the world, and it would have been a lot easier to write DeCSS in the first place.

The DVDCCA is trying to have their cake and eat it too - not really surprising, a lot of technology companies make similar efforts. It is disappointing to see the U.S. legal system in agreement with them, though, since this case is really about legal reverse engineering. The MPAA's "right" to make a profit should be laughed out of court when it is brought up.

A Much More Interesting Question...

[Anonymous Coward]

...I think, would be this...

Presumably, the "illegal" DeCSS code has a clear interface. I.e.: well- defined API. Entry points & return values. Whatever. (I haven't looked at it.)

Now let's suppose that open source writers started cranking out friendly, GUI-based DVD apps, complete except for the DeCSS code--expecting "users" to link the "GUI code" with DeCSS modules/libraries the "users" are assumed to have obtained elsewhere. Say, for example, from Usenet? (Where it's now posted all over hell and back :-).)

Would the "GUI-based app" writers be liable for anything?

I suspect not. But IANAL. Nor a judge.

Re:Legality EXACTLY

[carlos_benj]

(along with that Amish* judge that they rented).

*no offense to any Amish folk reading or hearing about this post ;-)

I am stunned as I sit here reading slashdot in the warm glow of my kerosene powered laptop deep in the fertile Pennsylvania farmlands cultivated by my ancestors. If you didn't mean it to be offensive, why add the 'Amish' modifier? What would have been wrong with, "along with that judge that they rented"?

No shoo-fly pie [globalgourmet.com] for thee.

Real Questions About the Vaporware

[Royster]

Anyway... just wanted to say that it is DEFINITELY not vapourware

Does it allow for fair use of DVD content?

Does it ignore region coding?

Does it allow you to skip trailers and ads

If the answer to any of these is no, this isn't the DVD player that we want.

I found the Intervideo Linux Page.

[Hal_9000@!!!@]

Its just not in English. http://www.intervideo.com.tw/.

What about Fluorescent Discs?

[Helmholtz]

Seems to me that what we really need is for the Fluorescent CD product to get out the door and into the mainstream .... then you would have enough storage space to use just about any format you wanted. High compression would no longer be required.

I'm kinda surprised we don't already hear more about this technology .... perhaps it's vapourware as well, but it seems to me that if and when it finally gets out the door that it will quite possibly put an end to DVDs in general.

As I don't know much about the subject that's all I really have to say, but anyone who wants to take a look at this technology and possibly make a better call as to its validity, the company is Constellation 3D [c-3d.net].

Cheers!

Re:It's not the only one...

[TheGratefulNet]

IA probably refers to Intel Architecture.

like ia64 is their 64bit arch.

--

Re:What are you talking about?

[Stephen Samuel]

All that it requires for evil to triumph is for the good to do nothing
-- Ghandi

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government
-- US Declaration of Independance.

If he is still saying "not enough," it is because he does not feel that he should be expected to be grateful for the halting, and inadequate attempts of his society to catch up with the basic rights he ought to have inherited automatically ... by virtue of his membership in the human family and his American birthright.
-- Martin Luther King

Those who are unwilling to fight for their freedom don't deserve it.
-- Malcom X

Re: Slashdot

[Eil]

LinuxOne. I would suppose they quietly shut their doors and laid off their two employees after getting a mountain of negative press.

Re:Hmm

[Alan Shutko]

That's not a problem. DVD players don't need to use the filesystem. OMS (livid) doesn't, and I have it working on 2.2.16.

You do need the DVD ioctls, but those have been in the last few 2.2 kernels.

Can't block copy a DVD and play it.

[yerricde]

If you can read the drive, you can make a copy. You don't even need to be able to read the filesystem on the disk. You can read the disk as raw data and make an image.

Commercial pressed DVD discs store CSS keys in an area that is already burned with zeroes in DVD-ROM media. You may be able to copy the files, but you won't be able to copy the key.

<O
( \
XGNOME vs. KDE: the game! [8m.com]

Re:Legality EXACTLY

[Stephen Samuel]

It still boggles my mind that writing one's own instructions for a device (DVD player) and sharing them with the world can be called "illegal" in the first place.

A prominent Vancouver lawyer is quoted as once saying "The legal system has nothing to do with justice." I would be inclined to agree. The question is: What are the rules and how can you get a judge to interpret them? In the legal system it's justice be damned if the rules say "line him up against the wall and shoot him". Even the truth can be little more than an interesting side-issue.

If you don't like the way that the rules are being written and enforced, get involved in politics. That's where the rules are set. Don't think that registering a vote every few years is the limit of acceptable participation. (well, actually, I'd consider it the lower limit of acceptable participation).

Nothing would scare politicians like 10K angry geeks getting involved in the upcoming election. With DECSS, Napster, Microsoft et. al. all on the cusp, I'd say it's about time.

Re:Legality EXACTLY

[Eil]

But DeCSS is as harmless as it gets. There is absolutely 0 threat that a bunch of letters and numbers on somebody's hard drive is going to harm anybody in any way.

Or so a logical being would conclude. But CSS was created as method of content control... a phrase which has a far great reach than mere copyright infringement. Part of CSS is determining who can watch what movie and where. Helps keep prices high in some regions, while affordable enough to be proitable in others. Also, (and this is where the MPAA has a beef with DeCSS) in order to manufacture a DVD player or develop one, you need to purchase a license and the CSS algorithm. This allows certain electronics manufacturers to arrange a kind of consortium. If a company wants to develop and manufacture a DVD player with the consumer in mind, they simply aren't sold a license or has it revoked. I'm sure there are certain clauses in the contract that say things like "you may not make a DVD player that can play movies for other regions or output the decoded information in any other format than copy-protected analog, etc, etc"

You can see for yourself that DeCSS and the precedent that it would have set without being fought would have been quite harmful, from a corporate persepective at least.

As always, much of this is pure speculation, and I enjoy being proven wrong if truth accompanies the counterargument. Have a good day.

Re:"It" has BEEN finished for months

[jon_c]

But ignoring a ruling and deciding something is legal because you believe it won't fly.

Ya, actually it will. Not in princable, but in pratice yes. There really isn't anything the courts police of FBI can do about it, people HAVE DeCSS, they have napster, Gnutella, and all the others. It doesn't matter what this or that judge say. it's not going to change anything, in pratice at least.

-Jon

Re:A Much More Interesting Question...

[mOdQuArK!]

ell, if the US court cases about high-strength encryption are any judge, then YES - the GUI-based app writers WOULD be considered accomplices to the act.

If I remember the descriptions of the rulings, the resultant applications can't have any obvious hooks which directly support the infringing piece of software.

This was in response to a bunch of people trying to leave a "hole" in open-source mailers like mutt/pine/elm (don't remember exactly which), where somebody could snarf a PGP toolkit/executable from a non-US web site & just plop it into the installation & everything would be integrated. The courts basically said they weren't going to allow that obvious attempt to get around the encryption restrictions.

Re:Hmm

[Phroggy]

The sad truth is most Win32 software works perfectly fine for 99% of the people who use it.

The people who use it, or the people who want to use it?

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Re:DeCSS

[Amphigory]

How'd you know I was really planning to name them Luke and Leia?

Could've been worse. If it had been boys, I was going to name them "Jacob and Esau".

--

Re:Fraud on the court

[G27 Radio]

Why not?

I'm not sure either. That type of space-shifting (converting from DVD to 8mm) was allowed as "fair use" last time I heard.

numb

Re:DeCSS

[radja]

hmm.. strictly speaking you could make cssdescramble.c your signature. RL that is.. a signature is not required to have anything to do with your name, it's more like a password. bring loads of pens though..and no trouble with Other Kids*(c)

//rdj

*pat. pending

Re:Legality

[Robert S Gormley]

You sound like RMS. (paraphrasing:) "Please don't call it theft. That sounds bad. Call it sharing." or some such crap :-|

Re:Legality EXACTLY

[Hard_Code]

I know we're just preaching to the converted...

But there is one thing, even beyond First Amendment rights and fair use that scares me. I'm not a legal historian or anything, but it always seemed to me that laws were about restricting *behavior*. If I sign an NDA, and then disclose some secret info, it is not the *information* that is illegal, it is the *act* of disclosing it. Or if somebody tells me a password and they weren't allowed to, it is *their* *action* that will get them in trouble. Now with the DeCSS judgement, I can imagine a trend in which the *information* itself is branded legal or illegal. This is something entirely new. As far as I know, *information* has never been given a legal state unto itself - it was always some action that was made illegal. It's scary to think that simply holding some information in your head would make you a criminal, but on worse days I can imagine that possibly happening.