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LinuxWorld 94

Posted by michael from the grab-bag dept.
mduell writes: "Saw these three on the Technology front page at MSNBC.com. First off, This story on how GNOME Foundation takes aim at Microsoft. Secondly, this story about what Michael Dell thinks of Linux. Lastly, this story about Linux on mobile devices." Some other links that have been submitted: a reader submits pictures from the Expo, a Linux PDA is announced, and Michael Dell tries to figure out why he's selling overpriced Linux systems.
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  • ZDNet [zdnet.com] has an article [zdnet.com] about the VR3 as well.

    Among the more interesting tidbits, you can hook up to the VR3's RS232 serial port and telnet or ftp right into the PDA.

    The article also has full technical specs and a picture of the PDA in its cradle.
  • M$ has deal with most of their manufacturers that they're paid per computer shipped - whether or not it has M$ installed. This makes it ard for anybody to move away from Windows. That's why if you buy from a vendor you pay more.
  • Took me a while to *find* their FAQ until I realized that multiline select box is masquerading as a list of links. Go figure...
    --
  • Gawd how I hate this over-and-inappropriately-used word Solution:

    Buy the NT box and plop Linux on top of it ;-)

    Vote [dragonswest.com] Naked 2000
  • I wanted to see what dell would charge me for a laptop with linux on it. So i went to their "home/home office" site, and started to configure an Inspiron laptop. I got here [dell.com] when I found the link at the bottom to install Linux on this laptop. You will [dell.com] see that this link is broken. I noticed that about 6 weeks ago. I emailed dell about it, and they don't listen. They still havn't fixed it...
  • Dell claimed the Linux-based manufacturing system is saving the company "several million dollars per year."

    It would be interesting to know just where the savings is coming from; anyone got figures from Dell? Is it from possibly reduced R&D per unit value gained, despite that they're spending "the most" [sic] on Linux right now? Are they saving money from not having to buy MS licenses and products for these boxen? Shorter dev/production cycles? Support savings?

    On a slightly related note, I wonder what the margins are for Dell Linux boxen; maybe they charge more because (among other reasons) they can charge more. After all, why would they argue with higher margins? :P

  • Are you nuts, go check out pdabuzz, estamate price at 150, one fifty dollars. Yeah, the m100, visor solo price point.

    cy

    (ps. my original title has 20 exclaimation points in it, /. tole me, "Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted." Taco, how hard is to make a repeat story filter first?

  • The question is not how much the computers cost, the question is why a machine with Windows costs less than the same machine with Linux? I don't buy the R&D costs argument - I think Dell is still paying MS the Windows tax for every machine sold, regardless if it had Windows on it or not.
  • I was talking to the agenda guys yesterday. Nice folks and I wish them well. However, I have one problem with their product. I don't want a desktop linux on my handheld. This actually seemed to be one of the selling points for these guys. "Watch, you can run an ls command. This thing even has inetd!" Yeah, so? Do I want to mess around with configuring lengthy text files on my handheld? Sorry. It's fine to have these things as part of the system, but the interface is going to have to change. Accessing the command prompt from a 2"x3" screen is not going to work, even with the chiclet keyboard they seemed to be selling as well. Do yourselves a favor, go check out PocketLinux [pocketlinux.com]. With as much praise as I'm heaping on these guys, you'd think they were paying me. Have no fear, I'm just an OpenSource Documentation [unc.edu] guy. I just think the pocket linux guys kick ass.
  • The Justice department investigated MS about five years ago because of this practice. They got MS to stop doing this, but accomplished little else to reign in the company.
  • And you have something wrong there. It's 8 MB *ROM*, 2 Meg flash *RAM*

    I cut and pasted that from the announcement. 8MB RAM, 2MB Flash ROM (Flash ROM is a type of ROM which can be altered -- but alteration is much slower than RAM and there's a limit of about 100,000 alterations).

    The VR3+ FAQ also mentioned the same 2MB Flash/4MB Flash number.

  • Dell's big push into the consumer market is a recent thing. Before 1998 the main focus of Dell's sales were in servers and workstations/desktops for small to medium businesses. Business sales still make up the majority of Dell's sales, so to say that consumer sales built the company, or made it strong, is incorrect.
  • There is no evidence this has ever happened in the Server market.

    (At least 20% of servers still ship with Novell. It used to be much higher, around 70%.)

  • Re:What about PocketLinux? (Score:3)

    by jpick ( 3522 ) on Wednesday August 16, 2000 @07:35AM (#851820) Homepage
    Hi, I've been working for Transvirtual on the PocketLinux stuff.

    PocketLinux is a PDA operating system that we've been developing, based around Kaffe and an XML-based application framework.

    We're announcing it at LWCE, even though I already demoed a bit of it at OLS. Even at this early stage, it's probably the best PDA OS for Linux handhelds I've seen yet.

    At the show, we've been running it on the VTech Helio, and the Compaq iPaq.

    We're actually selling the Helio's for $149 at the show, but it's really for developers only at this stage.

    We've got a really wicked demo built for the iPaq, with themes, handwriting recognition, a notepad, article viewer, MP3 player, and even video! We've got a few Java games running too.

    Unfortunately, the demo really only came together at the last minute, so the web pages haven't been updated, and we haven't posted the sources and images yet.

    I'm going to try to get on that...
  • I got 8 yesterday: 3 from VA Linux (sourceforge, osdn, and a regular va linux; they wouldn't give me a va linux live one because I wasn't sitting down listening to the talk), 1 java shirt from Sun, and 2 from various headhunting sites (lime green, or rasberry?), 1 from some linux magazine, and 1 from the EFF. I paid $25 for the EFF one; you can't really expect them to give away shirts and fight Jack Valenti at the same time, can you? I missed out on a helix gnome shirt (looked nice, but they ran out for the day) and a couple obnoxious companies that were making you listen to their schill before giving you anything.

    Other notable schwag included BSD devil horns, a couple beer glasses from some headhunter people, a couple martini glasses from the AMD party, a flashlight from HP, a stuffed penguin from IBM, some red light/flashy pins from various companies, a couple superballs (one flashy and one with a penguin imprisoned inside), a bunch of cds (including "sounds of slashdot"... so far, I've been afraid to listen) and a cd wallet.

    JMC

  • Kind of like the fact that gnusucks.* is still available....
    :)
    Get 'em, boys!


    .sig

  • Uhh... (Score:1)

    by mplex ( 19482 )

    The most likely reason was because they were at a LINUX expo. This thing is not being marketed as a linux users PDA, from the web page it looks as if it only syncs with Outlook. On the other hand, unlike the iPaq, it has some professionallay done PIM apps specifically for that size PDA. Besides, it uses X and the entire OS and all apps are open source. I bet the iPaq developers could just lift the work done on the agenda and make the more powerful iPaq actually useful as a PDA and keep linux on it + xmms+ram+color.


  • Off the developers site

    You can check out the latest source code through anonymous (pserver) CVS: cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.agendacomputing.com:/cvsr oot/linuxvr login cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.agendacomputing.com:/cvsr oot/linuxvr co linux Just press Enter for the password (leave it blank). This creates a "linux" directory right under wherever you were when you did the checkout command. This could probably be done in no time. The only thing I can think of is the resolution difference, but moving some widgets or something, perhaps adding a dock of some sort and a few things to take advantage of the more powerful iPaq. I'm thinking about buying one myself and getting to work on this...

  • 8MB RAM is plenty of room for apps -- my first 386 Unix machine had 8MB. With all the shared memory, many tools are small; I see Red Hat "ls" is 43K, "sort" is 26K, "less" is 79K, and "telnet" is 63K, so 100 apps the size of "telnet" would be 6.3MB -- not counting the shared libraries.

    I wonder if they're using a compressed filesystem, or simply compressing many of the files, to fit more on the Flash ROM.

  • Yup, I have a dying PDA for which nobody made apps and I can't get the SDK. At least with a Linux PDA I have a chance to make it do a few special things for me, or to keep up with new desktop apps to sync with.
  • Went home with no shirts,last year was better. Sorry LWCE was sort of a bust for me.BTW I do not judge a trade show by swag,It was a little to Corperate for me .
  • Reading the MSNBC article, it looks like the Gnome Foundation wants to create basically Windows all over again with the integrated web browser...why not just port windows and forget it..
  • hmnpf, /. doesn't allow pix to be posted, so, it's the one here: http://www.ringworld.org/~dieman/lwce/pics/3/20000 815-set1/images/20000815-set1_36_640x480 .JPG

  • Agenda Linux PDA (Score:3)

    by SEWilco ( 27983 ) on Wednesday August 16, 2000 @05:35AM (#851830) Journal
    This was in one of the press releases, not in the FAQ. The FAQ did mention also a VR3+ with 4 MB flash and a VR5 with color screen.

    • PROCESSOR 66MHz 32-bit MIPS processor
    • MEMORY 8 MB RAM 2 MB flash storage
    • DISPLAY Large 2 1/4" x 3 1/4" viewable area
      • 160 x 240 pixel LCD screen in 16 grayscale shades
      • Backlit for dark viewing
      • Digital contrast control

    USER INTERFACE

    • Recognizes natural handwriting anywhere on the LCD screen
    • Audio input/output (external headset, phone jack, microphone and speaker)
    • Stylus activated power on/off feature
    • Touch-sensitive display for stylus or fingertip operation
    • 7 push buttons for different actions
    • 7 touch-sensitive quick-launch hard-icons
    • On-screen keyboard, supports optional external keyboard
    • Built-in mic/phone jack
    • Visual notification LED
    • Audio notification Buzzer
    • Quick Sync cradle
    • Infrared connection

    CONNECTIVITY

    • 1 IrDA port
    • 1 RS-232 port
    • 1 High-speed 1.6 MHz clocked serial port for external keyboard, mass storage, wireless, etc.

    BUILT-IN SOFTWARE Linux VR operating system Contacts, To-Do, Schedule, Notes, Calculator, Quicksync for Linux and Windows PC, Mail, Network, Terminal, Games, Bootloader, Utilities Backlit display for clear viewing in low light conditions

    ...

    PRICING AND AVAILABILITY The Agenda VR3 will be available in October 2000. Pricing for the Agenda VR3 is expected to begin as low as $149 MSRP. Product availability, pricing and product specifications are subject to change without notice.

  • Did anyone else notice that if you want to sync with a PC using the 'included' software the PC has to be running Windows and Outlook. I mean this meant to appeal to the Linux users out there but they cant come up with a linux version of thier sync software??
  • You are far too kind to Mr. Michael Dell.

    Dell is pricing these higher because Linux has more than just legitimacy, it's desirable.

    In short, Linux is hot, he's a business man and he knows how to make money.


    Vote [dragonswest.com] Naked 2000

  • "It's not Microsoft" (Score:3)

    by Bilbo ( 7015 ) on Wednesday August 16, 2000 @05:39AM (#851833) Homepage
    Just read a SF short story where the question was asked, "Define 'old' without using the word 'young'." Brings to mind the question:

    Define "Linux" without using the phrase, "It's not Microsoft".
    Why do I get nervous when MSNBC puts up a news article on how GNOME is positioning itself to replace Windows? Is MS working to reinforce the notion that Linux, and all the Open Source applications that come with it, are simply playing catch-up to Redmond's Thought Leadership and Innovation?

    People, Linux has got to stand on it's own. I think it's great to talk about taking over market share, and breaking the back of the oppressive monopoly that we've all been struggling under, but if we can't do anything more than mimmic the new features that Microsoft is coming out with, ours will be a short dynasty. We have to fight the temptation to think of ourselves as a "better Windows". People have to buy into Linux because it does what they need to do, quickly and reliably, with a user interface that makes sense to normal human beings.

    Break out of the mold and do something truly creative.

    --

  • That's not Emmett, that's Steve Jobs.
    --
    then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
  • From the developer's site [agendacomputing.com]:

    Agenda isn't a "new OS". It is Linux. The real McCoy. And it is X. And bash. And whatever else you port.

    Leverage open-source operating system and tools.
    Source-available system utilities and productivity suite software.
    Program in C or C++.
    Use familiar tools and libraries like gcc and glibc.
    Don't settle for less - the VR3 runs Linux 2.4 and XFree86.
    Build user interfaces easily using the built-in FLTK library.
    Access databases efficiently using built-in libdb support.
  • one of my friends told me about the PocketLinux [pocketlinux.com] handhelds he saw at linuxworld. has anyone had a chance to see one at the conference? how does it compare to the vr agenda?
  • No that's not an accordian he's playing, that's the latest Micro$oft PDA ! .....and moving the concertinas in and out helps extend its pathetic battery life.
  • did anyone get a chance to check out the PocketLinux [pocketlinux.com] handhelds? they sound ultrakewl from the website. supposed to have the 2.4 linux kernel with java/xml support. it's supposed to run on both the ipaq and a vtech pda. anyone get their hands on one?
  • No kidding! You have to ask why they didn't register the domain early on to prevent something like this.

    FYI, for those too lazy to check it out themselves, the URL points to KDE!

  • LinuxWorld Webcasts (Score:3)

    by lamefrog ( 79872 ) on Wednesday August 16, 2000 @06:43AM (#851840) Homepage
    including Michael Dell keynote and Linux Geek Bowl, hosted by Nick Petreley, with, among others, Jeremy Allison, Larry Augustin, Miguel de Icaza, Jon 'maddog' Hall, Bruce Perens, Eric Raymond and Bob Young, available here [technetcast.com]. Includes MP3 versions.
  • And why is it sitting on top of a toilet? :)
  • Then again you'd be helping Billy G to get richer quick instead of Mr Dell. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, save $$$ or save your soul.............:>

    Or just buy a machine from someone else. I don't understand the big hoop-la over Dell machines, are they really that special? Can't one of the myriad of other makers produce similar quality systems?


    --
  • I believe that MSFT still has "model" licensing deals, where if an OEM specifies that they'll only ship a given model of a computer with a Windows OS, they qualify for discounts. Which would make it why you don't see an ad in PC Magazine advertising a Dell Optiplex for $xxx (subtract $25 if you'd like Linux).

    Not just that, but a hardware manufacturer has to make a case to Microsoft to show that two separate models are indeed separate models (for instance, they need to have different specs (aside from the OS)) and be promoted differently.

    This is all just me regurgitating something I read (probably either at the Register or a John C Dvorak (I can sense the flames already!) column from a year or two back...

    Yes, the DOJ did stop Microsoft from being able to charge OEMs for licenses they didn't sell, but they were able to devise an even more restrictive term in the end...
  • Did anyone else notice that they REQUIRE a micro$oft windoze product on the desktop, at least to sync mail?
  • It's either an Airport base or an iBook power supply.

    Since the iBook looks like a toilet seat, I suppose the pic was taken in the right place...

    now you know
  • I went to the parties (VALinux and Gnome) they both rocked! However both of the required that you be over 21 to enter, many of the developers were not allowed to go in because of this. There was a coffee shop setup for them but it still just wasn't the same, if you know what I mean.

    Party On!
  • Probably the Apple Airport. Wireless Lan Hub.
    Just a guess.
  • if we can't do anything more than mimmic the new features that Microsoft is coming out with,
    Although we know that this is a rash and incorrect generalization, I'll address it as if it were correct:

    What are we adding? In short, commoditization. Even if Linux were just another Windows (which it isn't), it's free. It commoditizes the operating system, just as TCP/IP commoditized wire protocol and Ethernet commoditized the wire itself. Unseating the monopoly and putting control of the operating system back into the hands of the industry and community is a worthy goal, in and of itself.

    Besides, who knows how many slick new innovations could have happened over the last decade if Microsoft hadn't been there to destroy them? We're creating a level playing field, one on which true innovation can happen, whether or not it agrees with the One Microsoft Way.
    --
  • Screenshots are now at:

    http://www.transvirtual.com/pocketlinux .htm [transvirtual.com]
    http://www.transvirtual.com/poc ketlinux-screens.htm [transvirtual.com]

    ... and the source is available too.

  • BusyBox [lineo.com] is a single binary that includes all of the following in one binary:

    ar, basename, cat, chgrp, chmod, chown, chroot, chvt, clear, cp, cut, date, dc, dd, deallocvt, df, dirname, dmesg, du, dumpkmap, dutmp, echo, false, fbset, fdflush, find, free, freeramdisk, fsck.minix, grep, gunzip, gzip, halt, head, hostid, hostname, id, init, insmod, kill, killall, length, ln, loadacm, loadfont, loadkmap, logger, logname, ls, lsmod, makedevs, mkdir, mkfifo, mkfs.minix, mknod, mkswap, mktemp, more, mount, mt, mv, nc, nslookup, ping, poweroff, printf, ps, pwd, reboot, renice, rm, rmdir, rmmod, sed, setkeycodes, sh, sleep, sort, swapoff, swapon, sync, syslogd, tail, tar, tee, telnet, test, touch, tr, true, tty, umount, uname, uniq, update, uptime, usleep, uudecode, uuencode, wc, which, whoami, yes, zcat, [

    So 8 Megs begins to look even roomier.
  • My ghod. I know the people in those pictures. The guy on the laptop on the ghetto microphones runs nerp.net. Talk about a small world. I never thought the Slashdot community would have the pleasure of seeing them all. Heh

    Scary.
  • My question is, "Will it display remote running X apps?"

    That is, can I attach a wireless networking card and then display Netscrape that's running on a remote server. Remember, many of us still have the goal or reading /. on the stool. (Garbage in...)

    Buying a complete notebook for this purpose is just too expensive and too bulky. An oversized IPaq with wireless networking would be the perfect fit for my problem space.

  • Yes, I know about BusyBox. I've been tinkering with the single-floppy Linux Router Project [linuxrouter.org] packages.
  • Heh. Slashdot authors and accordions. Two things that probably shouldn't go together.

    --
    Michael Sims-michael at slashdot.org
  • Yes, I agree completely regarding Jesse Berst. He is even more idiotic than John Dvorak.
  • The iPaq is 500$, which I was refering to as the 500$ doorstop..
  • Then they musta corrected it, becouse it said ROM when I looked at it..

  • Hmmm (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm kind of skeptical of Michael Dell. He has only started to come around to Linux very recently and the overtures he has made to the Linux crowd has been mostly cosmetic.

    I looked on his site to find out whether I could order a laptop without Windows and the answer is no. I assume he only offers Linux installs for businesses. That's fine and dandy but it doesn't address my needs as an individual consumer, which is the base that built his company.

    I want to see Dell be more innovative in the Linux arena, rather than looking to see what Gateway and others are doing. I really like their products and feel that they offer decent deals for those of us who want cheap, well made pc's/laptops with standard components.

  • what a tease... (Score:3)

    by tigrrl ( 219188 ) on Wednesday August 16, 2000 @05:09AM (#851859)
    Saw this in the second article mentioned:
    "But the chairman studiously avoided bad-mouthing Redmond, Wash., even when asked by an attendee why Dell systems preconfigured with Linux continued to be more expensive than similarly configured Windows machines."
    and thought I was about to get the official answer at last!

    No luck. I've been wondering for ages why the dell linux boxes are so much more expensive than the windows boxes. I thought they might be dealing with amortization of costs from the learning curve, but Dell also mentions in that article that they, themselves, are relying on linux boxes for several segments of their production process. My theory goes right out the window on that statement.

    Does anyone have a better idea? Or does anyone know what Dell actually responded to the question of why the linux boxes cost more?
  • I mean the corporate interest in talking about it and showing support. Somewhat like the stock market infatuation with the Linux companies. This isn't to say that the user momentum or the development pace is going to decline anytime soon.

    Founder's Camp [founderscamp.com]

  • I thought that at first, but it's hidden away down in the specs section:
    Rsync for Linux and Windows PC
  • This thing better cost under $100. It's less powerful than my Palm III that I bought two years ago. Price is going to be its only possible point of competition with *any* existing PDA. It's got a green-and-black screen. It's not even expandable except through a serial port.
    --
  • SOurce Page http://developer.agendacomputing.com/source.html Has instrustions for getting to their CVS server if you are really intrested in how it works. It is part of thier developers site..
  • It's very possibe you're currect. However, I suspect that if they were priced just _under_ the NT servers that they'd sell considerably better (for a greater net profit) since most companies already have all the NT licenses they need. I know if I were in an NT shop (shudder) I'd still buy the cheaper linux servers and then install NT from my MSDN discs.

    That said, I'm sure that Dell's market research knows just what to do to eeek the most possible cash out of the IT purchaser (certainly more than this geek knows about it) and is probably doing exactly what will maximize profits.
    --
  • Redherring has an interesting art icle [redherring.com] saying that while Linuxworld is still a safe-haven for geeks, it has become a must-attend event for suits. My read of this is quite simple. They called us crazy, idealists, and starry-eyed optimists. They hoped we'd go away because we challenged the status quo. Now we can't be ignored. We've been right all along. Open source development works.
  • It looks to me like the Linux VR they are talking about is the Linux VR project at www.linuxvr.org [linuxvr.org], although it's not mentioned on their site. The Linux VR project is a port of linux to the NEC VR series of processors, which is what the Agenda is running.

  • Re:pictures (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Dork, nerd, schmuck, panty-waist, turd... it all means 'geek' to you.

    And you're proud of that??
  • As well as these three, it's interesting to note that RedHat's stock took a turn for the better yesterday when it and IBM annouced that Big Blue would be shipping Linux pre-installed on a range of PCs (obviously shipping it on it's NetFinity range wasn't enough :>). I'd post a URL for the story, but it's easier to tell you how to find it than give the URL (it's horribly long); just take a look at the "Technology News" section on Bloomberg's site [bloomberg.com].
  • Maybe they had trouble finding something to sync to. You first need a similar app on your Linux desktop, then the app needs to be open enough that you can write a sync tool. Well, with the StarOffice source code it should be possible to sync to those tools. And ApplixWare is using legible file formats so sync should be possible with that also.

  • "Define 'old' without using the word 'young'."

    OLD: dating from the remote past; ANCIENT ("old traditions"); persisting from an earlier time ("an old ailment"), ("they brought up the same old argument"); of long standing ("an old friend")

    Define "Linux" without using the phrase, "It's not Microsoft".

    LINUX a free implementation of the UNIX computer operating system developed under a distributed, "open source" model

    Break out of the mold and do something truly creative.

    Why don't you? Isn't the whole point of open source that it empowers you to develop whatever you want? If you've got a great idea, share it with the rest of us.

    -

  • I just want to publicly state what a complete idiot jesse berst is. I've never, EVER found a bit of worthwhile information in anything he's ever written. His opinions are nothing more than that, his opinions, and they are often wrong and backed by nothing more than his own ill-conceived speculation. We are all now dumber after reading any of the trash he writes.
    Now, to mobile linux. Most of the embedded stuff here at (a href="http://www.linuxworldexpo.com">LinuxWorld is alright. There is one stellar exception that stands above the crowd--PocketLinux [pocketlinux.com]. These guys rock! First of all, unlike some of the other guys, they're not putting a desktop linux distro in my hand. Do I want to run X on a screen that's 2" x 3"? Hell no. They've built an incredibly fast system that will display full motion video (that's right) on the Compaq iPaq [compaq.com]. It's completely open source, and the framework is standards based and it appears to be easy to write your own applications on. It scales as well. Everything from a handheld to a cellular phone to a set-top box is possible. This is where the future of mobile linux is going to be. These guys finally did it right. Anyone else considering an embedded solution would do themselves a favor to look over there. And one final note, this product is SHIPPING TODAY! Yesterday even. This is not vapor ware. Spend the $150 and start developing apps today!
  • Go looking for Microsoft everywhere and you will find them everywhere.

    Linux: It's UNIX, only better.

  • In the grand scheme of things, all operating systems are fads.
  • Actually, there are two issues here.

    Obviously, the first is creating new and different ways to use computers. True innovation is difficult, and I have to admit I don't have any great, profound answers to how the Linux and Open Source community can solve this.

    The second, more subtle issue is image. I have seen a consistent undercurrent from MS, stating that they are the true source of innovation, and that Linux is nothing more than a copycat. It's always more difficult to be a leader, they claim, and the speed at which Open Source developers are able to implement features is due to the fact that they are simply re-implementing what the Leaders (read, Microsoft) have already done.

    The trick is, we have to show people that this is not the case.

    In other words, it's the perception we have to fight, as much as it is the obvious tendency to set our eyes no higher than what we already know. I do think that programs such as GNOME are comming up with new and interesting ways to do things, but the more we focus on Microsoft as the Great Enemy, the more we are letting ourselves be forced to play by their rules.

    --

  • LINUX a free implementation of the UNIX computer operating system developed under a distributed, "open source" model
    Hummm... Can you define Linux without the term UNIX? (i.e., in what way is Linux more than simply a rehash of a 30 year old idea?)

    I'm not flaming you. I'm just pointing out that immitation is an easy trap to fall into.

    --


  • "The Gnome desktop will integrate embedded Mozilla into the (Eazel) Nautilus file manager"

    Can somebody tell me why the Linux community openly criticizes Microsoft's silly ideas and then tries so hard to emulate them? It seems like Linux's inferiority complex is getting in the way of any real innovation on their part.

  • Then it's an old one. Palm SDK's are available. CE SDK's are available. Heck, you can even develope for the NEWTON.

  • Hummm... Can you define Linux without the term UNIX? (i.e., in what way is Linux more than simply a rehash of a 30 year old idea?)
    I'm not flaming you. I'm just pointing out that immitation is an easy trap to fall into.

    I understand where you are going with this, but at the same time, I don't know that it is necesary to define Linux without using UNIX. When designing the OS, I see Linus as having two choices. He could develop a UI from scratch, which would have taken a very long time and detracted from what he proably saw as the real work of kernel implmentation. Or he could use the existing UNIX UI, most which was already written and just needed porting, and was small and simple as befits an OS "in development". It also had the advantage of being something that most of his fellow developers were familiar with. It is largely possible, in current distros of Linux, to ignore that UI. The members of the Gnome foundation would like to (I think) make it completely possible to ignore that UI. Linux is UNIX-like only insomuch as that was the interface Linus chose to bolt on. Look at Mac OS X. It is UNIX, yet I would not call it UNIX-like. The key here is to make Linux better. If that means borrowing from the good ideas of Microsoft, fine. If it means creating entirely new ideas, fine too. I am sure that if the members of the Gnome foundation intend to succeed, they will have to do both.

  • I'd guess that the linux systems cost more because of the R&D costs involved whenever Dell upgrades an internal component is are spread out over a smaller number of systems. PC Builders don't actually _do_ much except promise you that the pieces they assemble work well with eachother and the OS they're installing (which is why Packard Bell should be considered the king of empty promises). Whenever they switch from Brand X floppy drives to brand XX floppy drives they have to test that hardware with the other components for a long while. When they do that on an NT platform they spread that cost out over the N systems they sell. With Linux it's spread out over the N/1000 systems they sell. As Linux grows in size it'll cost less (unless they pull the same scam the music industries did with the Cassette -> CD switch (wherein they promised higher CD costs initally and lower CD costs in the future)).
    --

  • I've been wondering for ages why the dell linux boxes are so much more expensive than the windows boxes.

    Most of the customers for Dell Linux servers are using them as the server and storage products . . . "We are spending more R&D dollars on Linux than any other OS, given its size," Dell said.
    That's their public statements; they are special, high end stuff. Crap, they just can't yet afford to piss off M$. And nothing pisses off the Redmond Illuminati more than cutting into their profits. As Linux starts to dominate the desktop, this will change. M$ will need Dell, Compaq, et al, as much as they need M$.

    As for installation hassle factor for Linux vs. Wondows, most people get their computers with the OS and major software pre-installed, with "restore" disks that neatly restore everything to day one in case of a screw-up, anyway. Dell knows this as much as any of us.

  • I disagree with your comment on how the base of Dell's business is the individual consumer. I spec for a college, and we shop dell. If we asked for 40 workstations with Linux on them, they'd hop alot quicker than one consumer asking for linux on a laptop. They have to offer the products where there's a demand for them, and the consumer market, like it or not, is still dominated by Windows PCs for game playing.
  • Michael Dell tries to figure out why he's selling overpriced Linux systems.

    Heh. I guess the hardware that runs Linux should be beer too, eh?

    Dell can sell overpriced Linux systems because a good portion of Dell buyers (coorporate style business and higher education) can afford it. Oh well. Dell is evil. Dell is bad. Dell is Microsoft. Dell is awful because they've shipped me parts next day when a piece of hardware died.

    Personally, I like Dell systems for servers. The hardware is decent, and the service contracts are good. So what if the price is higher - I feel that I'm getting what I paid for. Dealing with Dell has been a much better experience than dealing with, oh, HP or Compaq (who also overprice their systems.

    Besides, Micheal Dell is freakin' rich; He didn't get that way by giving away computers.

  • So what exactly do you have to do to win that Slashdot Cruiser? ;-)

    The Divine Creatrix in a Mortal Shell that stays Crunchy in Milk

  • So what exactly do you have to do to win that Slashdot Cruiser? ;-)"

    You just had to swipe you card at the booth I think

  • At first, I quickly went to the site, to see this beast, and *OH BOY* is it underwhelming.. s 2.25x3.25" screen, but only 160x240?? Blech, and only 16 greyscales.

    And you have something wrong there. It's 8 MB *ROM*, 2 Meg flash *RAM*

    And a 'speedy' 66 MHz processor.. ;-P

    The newer palsm outperform this, with an equivilent price range. Thanks, but I'll go buy an iPaq first. (Well, as soon as they can save the CE image just in case it frags, so I don;t end up with a 500$ doorstop)
  • http://www.ringworld.org/~dieman/lwce/pics/3/20000 815-set1/images/20000815-set1_14_640x480 .JPG [ringworld.org]

    Can someone tell me what the heck this is? It looks like an Apple rice cooker!

  • I'd guess that the linux systems cost more because of the R&D costs involved...

    I think that's a load of crap. If that were true then he would have used that argument each time the issue was brought up, but he knows that argument doesn't hold any water. Just look at the way he danced around the questions and how he ended up by spouting some bs about how you need to choose an OS with applications for the most value. What does that sound like to you?


    He may be flirting with Linux, but he's definitely still in bed with MS.

  • cute. i just went to www.gnomefoundation.org [gnomefoundation.org] to see who all were in on this. nice work. Nice little non-helpful whois [internic.net] on that.
  • how could this get flagged redundant? I posted it before the other guy!
  • > Can somebody tell me why the Linux community openly criticizes Microsoft's silly ideas and then tries so hard to emulate them?

    Perhaps because what you describe as "the Linux community" is actually multiple communities, some of which despise the MS way, while others admire it and others still don't give a flying flip.

    > It seems like Linux's inferiority complex is getting in the way of any real innovation on their part.

    Man, you really kicked the hell out of that straw man, didn't you.

    --
  • "We are spending more R&D dollars on Linux than any other OS, given its size," Dell said.

    This brings up the question, how does one spend R&D dollars on Windows? Isn't that Microsoft's job?
  • "I'd guess that the linux systems cost more because of the R&D costs involved"

    What the questioneer at the con didn't realize, even though Michael attempted to explain it, is that it really does cost them more to ship a Linux Dell computer than a Windows Dell computer.

    The reason why is simple. Ry4an explained it, but I'll rehash for the hard of hearing. Economy of scale. When you build 10,000 identical windows machines and 100 linux machines per day, the windows machines will each be cheaper to produce. Further, even the custom order machines get the same economy of scale, since creating 1000 identical custom orders for a windows machine still has a lower per-unit production cost than creating 10 identical custom orders for a linux machine.

    The questioneer called the extra $75 a "tax". If he would look this word up in a dictionary, he'll see that a tax is an involuntary obligation to a government or liege. If you don't want to spend $2000 + $75 for Linux Dell system, you have all the freedom in the world to buy a $2000 Windows Dell system and install Linux yourself, or even buy a $3000 VALinux system if you don't want to install the OS yourself.

    p.s. I do want to comment on another question asked of Michael Dell, and that is "aren't you just using Linux to sell more hardware?" The answer is of course, YES! Dell is a hardware company! Sheesh...
  • It's a bit of a double-edged sword, save $$$ or save your soul.
    Wait A minute either way The boys at Redmond get a share in the profits for the machine. So either way your sellihg your soul. Now if you decide to buy the NT machine Microsoft has to print out one more manual with the certificatre of authenciticy, press another CD and ship it over to Dell. Now this cost is minute of course, and if you are buyiong for a vendor such as Dell, ("you" || "your boss") want ("warrenty" && "tech support" && "The Dell GNOME theme") so you'd probally better spend the money on Dell.
    Now I don't kow what Dell tech support is like so if its worth it I don't know.
  • > Perhaps because what you describe as "the Linux community" is actually multiple communities, some of which despise the MS way,
    > while others admire it and others still don't give a flying flip.

    Quite true. In that case, I guess the communities I'm talking about here are the Mozilla and Nautilus developers. And while I do like some MS ideas, frankly the IE/shell integration is gimmicky and useless and I think most experienced computer users and the DoJ agree with me.

    I find it ironic that Mozilla is working on duplicating a feature that was only used originally by MS to shove them out of the market.

  • > I guess the communities I'm talking about here are the Mozilla and Nautilus developers. And while I do like some MS ideas, frankly the IE/shell integration is gimmicky and useless and I think most experienced computer users and the DoJ agree with me.

    While I am nominally a GNOME fan, and actually use it regularly, I think they also are going to far in some regards.

    The dreaded forking of Linux probably won't come by way of a kernel fork, but rather by way of a "heavy" GUI that forks the user community into two groups: {I'm-locked-in, I-don't-use-it}.

    > I find it ironic that Mozilla is working on duplicating a feature that was only used originally by MS to shove them out of the market.

    Equal but opposite reaction, kind of thing?

    --
  • Hey, did anyone notice the PDA has handwriting recognition!?! Anyone get to play with one? Does it actually work? Its a little strange that they mention _nothing_ about this feature unless you look at their FAQ:

    Q:Can I write directly onto the LCD screen to input information? Do I have to learn a new handwriting format?

    A: Yes you can write onto the LCD screen and your natural handwriting will be recognized. With the Agenda VR3 consumers don¦t have to learn graffiti or any other new form of manuscript.

  • What Slashdot Cruiser?

    Links, please.

  • Re:what a tease... (Score:3)

    by Corty ( 186595 ) on Wednesday August 16, 2000 @05:29AM (#851898)
    Yeah I think it's the training costs, because MSCE's are everywhere compared to RHCE's. You have to remember DELL are still kinda new to the Linux game and so they are probably investing more $$$ in selling Linux boxes than they are getting back compared to M$ boxes.

    But hey if you really want to save that extra cash buy the one with M$ installed, delete the OS and start from scratch w/ Linux. Then again you'd be helping Billy G to get richer quick instead of Mr Dell. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, save $$$ or save your soul.............:>

  • The VR3 looks moderately cool, but I'd like to take a look at the VR5.
    http://www.agendacomputing.com/sup port/faq06.jsp [agendacomputing.com]

  • The Agenda PDA looks pretty interesting. I was going to dump my old Cassiopeia E-10 in favor of a Handspring, but I may have to wait for this to come out now.

    The manufacturer's site is not very specific about what exactly Linux VR, the OS the thing runs, is, apart from saying it's "Linux-based." What does that mean? Will simple console applications work on this thing? Does anyone know? Has anyone seen one at the Expo?

    -

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