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Quake First Person Shooters (Games)

New Doom Details 129

Posted by Hemos from the the-car-mack-speaks dept.
Lasso Bob writes: "The Shugashack has a ton of details from Carmack's QuakeCon talk that happened just a couple of hours ago. We can expect a Linux port as well as OSX port for sure. Yeah!" Sounds pretty cool -- stuff like probably a big graphics jump and other fun to be had.
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New Doom Details More

New Doom Details

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  • Ah... But you forget about our good friend the Dopefish. He snuck into Quake. "The Well of Wishes" level I believe it was.

  • Actually, from what I recall from a friend, this was actually one of the "features" discussed for Win2K. It would automatically "fix" the MBR when you booted into 2K.

  • Hmmm... Yeah, that would be interresting, but he is not what he used to be. Too soft these days.

    Maybe they should hire Stephen Donaldson as a plot writer, but then the main character would probably be a psychotic rapist or something. Might not be good for sales.

    Well, read Donaldson's Covenant or Gap series anyway. ;-)

    --

    "I'm surfin the dead zone
  • I think they should do it for BeOS... It would be the first real first person shooter for it (other than quake I&II(but they are just poor))
  • Has anybody noticed how strange some his statements are? - Doom will be going back to DLLs, and will be using C++ (with the exception of the rendering code) instead of C Hmm, i well remember the whole discussion about virtual machines, code security, mods running on different platforms without recompilation, etc... what happened to that? apart from it: can you imagine ID coding something in c++ ? I've yet to see something even vaguely OO from carmack. - Single player is the absolute focus, and Carmack feels it will be their best single player experience to date. Do you remember the leaked audio-interview from pre-q3 days? Carmack basically said, that single-player games suck from a money/replayability point of view. He even said that he wouldn't start a sp-game nowadays, because of the ever growing development time. (and could only be done right with a _massive_ devteam) - The game and editor/tools are now combined. You'll be able to simply type doom.exe -editor for example (Or maybe even an in-game toggle) In the same interview he said, that he doesn't like integrated editors, and will never do so.

  • The 3D Action Planet and PlanetQuake write-ups are the same, but they are much better than the original link from Slashdot. Thanks for posting these. Its particularly useful to see the "two weeks" and multiplayer issues more clearly spelt out.

  • Re:That wasn't the carmack we know.. (Score:3)

    by Sir Frag-A-Lot ( 160197 ) on Sunday August 06, 2000 @03:56AM (#876655)
    Has anybody noticed how strange some his statements are?

    - Doom will be going back to DLLs, and will be using C++ (with the exception of the rendering code) instead of C

    Hmm, i well remember the whole discussion about virtual machines, code security, mods running on different platforms without recompilation, etc... what happened to that? apart from it: can you imagine ID coding something in c++ ? I've yet to see something even vaguely OO from carmack.

    - Single player is the absolute focus, and Carmack feels it will be their best single player experience to date.

    Do you remember the leaked audio-interview from pre-q3 days? Carmack basically said, that single-player games suck from a money/replayability point of view. He even said that he wouldn't start a sp-game nowadays, because of the ever growing development time. (and could only be done right with a _massive_ devteam)

    - The game and editor/tools are now combined. You'll be able to simply type doom.exe -editor for example (Or maybe even an in-game toggle)

    In the same interview he said, that he doesn't like integrated editors, and will never do so.

    what happened to carmack?

  • I assume you're aware that RIA is a server... ...or something... But the use of pictures of women completely unrelated to the product is really not all that uncommon in banner ads. X10.com in particular I've noticed ALWAYS has a random woman's face and they don't even say what thier product is (other than the mention of X10) most of the time on the ad.
  • Try XOSL [xosl.org]. It rocks!
  • > Q3 also came fairly close to have a JVM instead of the QVM interpreter, but it didn't quite fit my needs
    Does C++ now?

    Mod writing from a DLL makes sense as it will be quite speedy to do the entry point look ups from the engine core. Is it a speed issue? Did you find JNI to be too slow or that the wrapper over the C structs and your trap calls would be too much bloat?

    I read (I haven't played it yet though) that Vampire, the Masquerade uses a JVM , but it's game engine may have had different design goals.

    I could see it being a hacking issue as hard core gamers who like to cheat would attempt to augment the variables or algorithms in the bytecode when playing multi-player.
    Matt Prichards Cheaters Article [gamasutra.com]

    The unreal team also decided against using Java calling it a language for Web Programmers [epicgames.com]. It seems that adding language constructs outweighed using conventional debuggers and other tools.

    I ask as I'm a Java and C programmer who found C++ takes too long to compile and the added language constructs allow programmers to be sloppy.
  • Seems people keep forgetting that the first rendition of Doom was written under NeXTSTEP... and what is pretty much everything that is written on that platform? Oh yes, we're smart today!
    ---
    Solaris/FreeBSD/Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Linux/ultrix/OSF /...
  • I guess you've never heard of Serious Sam. Serious Sam is an FPS that comes from Croteam (http://www.croteam.com/), a tiny software company in Croatia. The three most notable things about this game are...

    1. They developed their own engine (the Serious engine) for it, and it looks spectacular. Lens flares, bump mapping, DYNAMIC curved surfaces, it's just incredible.
    2. They recieve no corporate sponsorship.
    3. This game OWNS.

    Seriously (no pun intended), this is one of the most refreshing games I've played in a while. Theres a storyline... but the depth doesn't match up to Half Life at all. It's only slightly more in depth then Quake II, actually. Despite this lack of a "critical element for FPS's," it's an amazing game, and feels a whole lot like Doom II. Go grab the tech demo at their site, and then tell me that an in-depth story is important.
  • So how come you can edit Quake levels with it?

    Next time I'm getting a big ass flag with 'JOKE' written on it...
  • Whatdoya mean, demons that go "yee?" All mine went "Hi-diddly hey!" and "I can see you!" and "Simpson, eh?"
    After playing that .WAD for a few weeks, I couldn't play any other way, because i didn't know what the original sounds were!

    Pope

    Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
  • I never understood why people would pay 50 dollars for basically the same game they got a year before.

    #1. It looks pretty.
    #2. I'd rather play a current game with people than try to get a Doom game together with the two other people in the world who would rather feel righteous than have a good time with normal people.

    #2 is reason enough for me, frankly. I loved Quake 3 for how little they changed things; it's a working formula, why mess with it? So what if I'm paying for an updated rendering engine, why do you care?

    Just because it wasn't custom designed for you doesn't mean it's worthless. All you have to do is not buy it. Don't come bitching to me about why the games that I like aren't good enough.

    --
  • Yeah, Thomas Covenant series were great - even though Tolkien's shadow was quite visible everywhere (but I don't care). Although, second series had some quite original elements... Great books (and I even haven't read them in English).
  • > "Great single-player experience" to me now
    > is defined by having a great story being
    > told during my travails through the plot.

    I also like great storylines in games. Sometimes it feels like watching a movie where u have to move the main character(s) through it, walk to location x, activate trigger y... Great, game gives me another chunk of story.. (repeat)
    In these games (e.g. FF7), i really wan't to see how the story developes, how the game ends, etc.. somehow the story _forces_ me to play the game... yet sometimes i don't like the gameplay itself that much (at least not _that_ much to play it for weeks..).

    Halflife is a great game, but as for the story it's really not so much more original as the quake1 story. In both there's a dimensional gateway open'ed, and lot's of evils and a big boss cause trouble. Halife does a much better of integrating the story in the gameplay and detailing it, tho.

    I still like singleplayer Doom. It's great fun, and u can try crazy stuff like not using any weapon to finish a level. It's similar to those old action games which all had maybee 1/2 page of a story but are great fun playing.
    Same with quake1, try completing levels as fast as possible! Great Fun!

    >They've always relied on flash
    >and graphics for user immersion.

    Yeah, interesting level layout/design, cool monsters,items,etc. , fast gameplay, great game physics...

    If you wan't a good story just think together your own while you play :)

  • Actually... the demo kicks ass. It has the good old "Doom" feeling written all over it.

    I was not impressed with graphics and level design. I *WAS* impressed with weapons, enemies, gameplay and - most of all - the athmosphere. As someone already said, THIS game will be Doom 3.

  • Agreed (Score:1)

    by Aos ( 24560 )
    Supposedly the plot was taken from Stephen King's "The Mist" (?) short novel. Well, I read that novel earlier and Half-Life has very little similarity with it. Actually, the only similarity is that a secret government sci-base had caused a dimensional rift to appear and monsters started coming through. That's it. The King's novel is way better not to mention scary as hell, and is very dark and ends bleak.

    Now Half-Life was a great game, but it was a definite proof for me that almost nobody reads books any more. If so many people think that HL story is the pinnacle of storytelling, then what has this world come to.
  • The HP-UX gaming market is really gona be hurting if ID dosent get their act together.
  • Common practice too...

    ...hey, dominant player integrates two technologies in an attempt to squeeze out the competition. Will Worldcraft run to the feds?

  • Simple. Quake is the software manifestation of id software, and therefore, the child of John Carmack. John shares many of the Open Source ideals that you find around /.

    He's released source code for major games. He has a hell of a legacy (Commander Keen!!!). He's an absolutely cool guy to meet in person. He helps code major Open Source projects (Utah-GLX).

    Basically, it's more of a Carmack thing then a Quake thing or an id thing.

    Oh, and while we're on the topic, I hate UT and Q3A. And I miss my old Half Life network code. I hope some of these new 3d shooters will bring back my love of the game.
  • for a co-op/deathmatch combo, play Counter Strike [counter-strike.net] (free mod for Half Life).

    of course, you die pretty easily in CS, so if you shoot your teammates in any soft spots, he won't be around to see you look stupid. plus, team kills result in your instant death in the next round, so it's best to avoid TK's (on servers with friendly fire turned on) for your own good.
  • yes, especially since the first post rarely contains anything but:

    FIRST POST(albiet its usually spelled wrong from trying to type too fast) :P
  • ...except in this case, it actually *is* two weeks away!

    Check the other news sites with info about the mission pack. I'd link them, but I'm tired and cranky. Bleh.

  • Er, two weeks?

    -

  • Ummm, i have to admit that one day i got bored, and felt like living on the edge. Lo and behold a windows 2000 CD fell from the sky into my lap, so i did take this evil thing, and didst install it over the top of windows98'eth. (And it was so that when Diablo2 was release-ed, that windows waseth installedeth.) And strangly it seemed, as if in a dream state, that after 14 crashes, 1 HDD failereth, and many other problems the small gremlin things that weighedted themselves at about 4MB each, didst have to fitteth themselves down a 33.6 pipeline, that the MBR was left unscathed, and linux could be bootedeth into. Alas it was not to last for after 2 days the majik square that didst hold the penguin, didst begin to smoke. :-(



    .sig = .plan = NULL;
  • Gee, an id game promising a great single-player experience. Excuse my skepticism when I read that. "Great single-player experience" to me now is defined by having a great story being told during my travails through the plot.

    This will be id's seventh basic iteration of a first-person shooter. In the previous six, none have had a story more substantive than "You're stranded on an alien planet (or the equivalent thereof). Shoot things." They've always relied on flash and graphics for user immersion. All well and good back in the days of Doom, when the rules were less clear-cut (and a masterpiece like System Shock could get buried by the dual factors of shareware distribution and a commercial distributor who just didn't give a rat's ass about it because they couldn't pigeonhole it).

    Now look at what's happened since Quake II. Half-Life redefined the rules of the genre thanks to that terrific storyline. System Shock II, Thief and its sequel, Soldier of Fortune, Deus Ex...a strong storyline has become the rule rather than the exception, something to set you apart from the crowd in a single-player FPS. FPSes even get dinged by reviewers for not having a strong storyline. Gabe Newell buried a landmine in John Carmack's sandbox, and Carmack and his team have proven in the past that they haven't got the inclination to deal with this kind of threat.

    (This is why I wondered about the ex-id players and their particular solo efforts. Daikatana's storyline always seemed to be a joke to me, and it turned out to be as shallow as expected. And even having Lewis Carroll as source material, I have very little hope that Alice will have some meat on her bones.)

    I'm not big on multiplayer gaming due to my inherent asocial tendencies, so I look for strong single-player elements in my FPSes. However, I purchased both Quake III and Unreal Tournament. Why? Because I know what side my bread is buttered on. The greatest storyline in the world won't save a game that's behind the tech curve. My money voted for id's and Epic's development efforts in engine creation and other basic tech. I trust each company to give us magnificent efforts in technical achievement; I just don't trust them to do stories.

    My thought on Doom III is that it's going to be a terrific glorified tech demo. However, I'll be incredibly and pleasantly surprised if Carmack and company pull a rabbit out of their hats and give us a story. I'll be waiting for this, but wary.

  • While I agree to this, I still enjoy a good show of Star Trek. The earlier versions. There's a lot of things about Star Trek that is not shown on the screen too. In fact, Star Trek is sort of original, so I think X-Files would be more appropriate to mention as a dumbed-down-to-the-masses SF show.

    If you want high science fiction read a good SF book. No screens or speakers can beat your imagination.

    - Steeltoe

  • Re:2 WEEKS?! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    "about two weeks" was the response when someone at id was asked when Doom II would ship. It turned out to be a lot longer than two weeks. Hence, the in-joke.
  • "Great single-player experience" to me now is defined by having a great story being told during my travails through the plot.

    Huh? "Great single-player experience" means just that. It has nothing to do with a story or a plot, and everything to do with gameplay. A good game doesn't need a plot, and a good plot does not make a good game. It's all about getting your priorities right, and that means concentrating on the gameplay, not the plot. Despite a few hiccoughs here and there, id have delivered pretty well on gameplay for the last 8 years or so.

  • 2 weeks for team arena (Score:4)

    by sprayNwipe ( 95435 ) on Sunday August 06, 2000 @01:47AM (#876683) Homepage
    The 2 weeks is for Quake 3:Team Arena, not Doom. The Shugashack article is about his QuakeCon speech, not just Doom.
  • A new wolf is in the works also, by activision based on the QIII engine.

    The review at Gamespot [zdnet.com] seems to indicate its ok.

    Doom: I guess it will be impossible to give the same shock of immersion most of us had when we first fired up doom, heard the music, and the grunts of the sergeants at the armor.

  • It has been my experience that game with One-Player games and an option for multiplayer are far better. Quake 3 Arena is the game that brought be to the "Gaming world." I was disappointed since all there was, was deathmatch and capture the flag. But, since then with q3f and WFA, it's a little more fun but, sometimes you just feal like playing on your own and not on the internet. What are you to do for that with q3arena? Play a deathmatch with bots that just run around and if they see you they shoot (not neccisarily at you either)? Since then, a friend of mine gave me Quake and I enjoyed it a whole lot more. A barely visible plot but, still much more enjoyable. Then, another friend pointed out Half Life to me. I was instantly hooked. A long deep plot for the one player game, and a good multiplayer experience. Then, I got Opposing Force for it and all the fun of the one player game came back. Admittedly, the mods are definately a part of VALVe's success (especially Counter-Strike [counter-strike.net].). I got, after that, Unreal Tournament. It's a good game but, sometimes a person is looking for more than single player deathmatches. UT is a good game and I can't wait for it's Team Fortress clone. Then, I got Soldier of Fortune. I was definately happier with SoF than UT. A nice single player game and good multi player game.

    Following that pattern, in order for the upcoming Doom to be any good is to have a very deep/complex plot for the multiplayer (and good mod support. Maybe better mod tools will help?). Having only Q1 & 3 as my only id gaming experience, I've never tried Doom or any of there older games. But I still look forward to this upcoming release of a new Doom and plan on buying it. Being a big fan of First-Person, Shoot-em-up games, I'll be buying it.

    I don't see much of a future for internet only games like q3arena or UT. Hearing about Team Fortress 2 by VALVe might make it a little different though. The way it sounds, it will have scenarios similar to that of World War II and Counter-Strike. Having rescue the hostages, protect the VIP, etc. it sounds pretty good. But, in my opinion, it will never be as big and grand as VALVe's own Half Life. I hope to hear a lot on these companies future releases.

    Have a nice day,
  • I'll be grumpy all week if they don't port to Irix!
    ...but I'll be grumpy all year if they don't port to the Atari 2600!
  • That's nothing... have you found the Duke Nukem in Appogee's Cosmo Episode II? It's in level 5 or 6 IIRC, one of the blue ice levels. Anyhow, there's a certain piece of ice that looks like all the others except you can fall through it. You go there and just keep walking through the ice (it's hard because you can't actually see Cosmo) until you arrive at a large opening. There, you see a little guy stuck in a block of ice. You plant a bomb next to it, it knocks off the ice, and out pops Duke Nukem! He says something along the lines of "thanks little dude, check me out in my new game coming soon!" He then gives you a hamburger (gives you an extra health slot (not extra health)) and blasts off with his rocket boots. That's still one of the best cameos of all time. :-)

    BTW, the original Duke Nukem, Duke2, and Cosmo are still the best side-scrollers out there. Cosmo is good for little kids but it can get hard too; Duke Nukem is an absolute classic and it can get really hard on the higher difficulties. It has almost none of the find-the-key-and-go-to-the-door problems that plague many modern action games.

    --

  • YES! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    DOOM is *much* better than any of the games that followed in its footsteps, both for single-player and deathmatch IMO.

    In single-player mode, it plays like a dream. Compared to the newer games, it lacks resolution and rather than this being a disadvantage, it actually makes the game better! When you dream, things aren't crystal-clear, and this game is a little bit similar to that. Also the theme and music are very dreamy-like. E1M8 and some of the Final Doom tracks are good examples of this (levels 4, 5 and 6 or so). The monsters are also very similar to ones you could dream about...

    In multi-player, DOOM also kicks ass because it's very fast, much faster than any other FPS! You really have to be "into it" in order to win at deathmatch, because there's no time to think. Any strategies you have much come intuitively because you don't have time to reason things out (else you'll get a rocket up your ass!)

    Also DOOM has *tons* of really good user-built levels and total conversions. After you beat DOOM, be sure to try these:

    Memento Mori 1 and 2
    Requiem
    The Darkening (which sadly will never be finished)
    Dark Covenant (not a TC, just a big level pack)
    Gothic Deathmatch 1 and 2
    Hell Revealed (you think you're a badadd DOOM player? try this and get humbled!)

    And that's just the tip of the iceberg. There are thousands of addons that have been written for this game. Oh, and be sure to check Doomworld (www.doomworld.com).
  • apparantly... some people don't have a sense of humor at /., maybe I should have put "THIS IS A JOKE" in bold somewhere so it wouldn't get modded down!

    -rt-
  • Some other pages with info on Carmack's QuakeCon talk:

    3DActionPlanet [3dactionplanet.com]
    Stomped [stomped.com]
    PlanetQuake [planetquake.com]

    -jfedor

  • I play RPGs (Final Fantasy, etc.) for story. An FPS is good to me because it is fun, not necessarily because it tells a story. Lots of things can make an FPS fun -- multiplayer against intelligent opponents with intelligent teammates is one, sneaking around and figuring out puzzles might be another, challenging battles, a scary mood, finding secrets, impressive visuals, ... lots of things. Many of these can be in a successful (fun) single-player game, as id has shown us in the past.

    The half-life story line was pretty lame, when you think about it. Soldier of Fortune's story was even more flaccid. These games were fun single-player, but for me it wasn't the story.
  • The *only* reason Serious Sam has any hype whatsoever is because they came out of nowhere and made an engine that competes with the big boys (id, Epic, etc.) If it were by any other well-known developer, people wouldn't care at all.

    --

  • I never understood why people would pay 50 dollars for basically the same game they got a year before. The weapons are almost always the same. The game play is always the same (first person shooter). The ideas are always basically the same: get keys, shoot bad guys, open doors, save earth. Else then boost in graphics, I think the game play almost always stays the same.

    I loved Doom & Quake... in eight grade. I think it's bad for us that ID has had such success selling their first person shooters. By selling a couple million games, no one can dispute their financial success and customer loyalty, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm not buying another ID game until they redesign it head to foot. Their success has stiffled their ability to produce another game breaking game, but oh well. I'm sure they'll suprise me and release something brilliant while I'm not looking.
  • The simpsons wadfile was pretty cool, but i also liked the one that changed all the sound effects to ones from the movie Predator. "Jeezus, you killed a pig!"
  • "The half-life story line was pretty lame, when you think about it. Soldier of Fortune's story was even more flaccid. These games were fun single-player, but for me it wasn't the story."

    I loved Half-Life, but I have to agree with you on this. The was pretty predictable and shallow, but I've noticed that when most people talk about how great Half-Life's story is, they're really talking about how immersive the story was. This was the first game that I can think of where events unfolded around you instead of in cut scenes and you could walk up to just about anyone and talk to them, or just shoot them when you felt like it.

    Thief is another game that is praised for its story. And this one actually is a little deeper than Half-Life's, thanks to its cut scenes, but again the best part of the game was its immersiveness. You could sneak around and overhear conversations that progressed the story in addition to the incredible sound that had you cowering in the shadows at times.

    In conclusion, I don't know what I'm talking about.
  • Does anyone else remember the hype for Quake back in the early 90s? Remember in the very first episode of Commander Keen how they had a "What's Next" screen; it told the story of a new game iD was working on. That game, even back then, was to be called "Quake". It was supposed to be a combination of a first-person perspective fighting game and a complex role-playing game. We were supposed to be able to talk to the artificial characters, (who were supposed to have real AI,) build alliances, explore, and ultimately, solve the puzzles necessary to reach the end of the game. We were supposed to use both our arcade-honed reflexes (ala FPS) and our wits (ala Zork or King's Quest). To me, this sounded like the best thing I'd ever heard of. What a tradgedy they opted to just implement the FPS portion of this idea. How 'bout it, Carmack? Can we have a *real* FPS-RPG/Adventure game combo?
  • It may be the only thing I share in common with this great, great man!

    In all seriousness, the main reason Carmack is so wound up about MOSX is because he'll finally have another chance to work with OPENSTEP development tools! He's been a NeXT guy forever and would like to see the technologies (OPENSTEP, Objective C, Mach) get another chance. I know I'm glad all over about it!

  • So, what is this "karma whore" I keep hearing about? I don't know "karma whore." Do you? Seriously, do you actually believe that people go around looking for ways to gain karma? I don't. I don't even believe in karma. Karma is a tenet of a stupid eastern "religion" that I don't believe.
  • I beg to differ. Computer games need the multi-player game just as much as the single-player game. You mention Half-Life, which I'll do now. It's got an amazing single-player game and had a decent multi-player. Sure, it wasn't great but, deathmatches aren't good at all (in my opinoin). But, it must have had something good in it because now it is the most highly played game in the world. There are more Counter-Strike [counter-strike.net] players alone than combining all UT & Q3A players. And that's just Counter-Strike. There is also TFC to account for, adding another 1,000 servers easily to the list.

    Now, compare the above statement about Half-Life's multi-player to Q3A's or UT's. They're both DM's. Sure, there's CTF and Domination and Assault in UT but, it's still almost all DM. Q3A is starting to come out with some good MODs like q3f [q3f.com] and WFA [captured.com]. Now, compare Half-Life's already established MODs. Counter-Strike, TFC, and the rising Firearms [firearmsmod.com]. This should be enough proof that Half-Life's multi-player is by far, superior.

    Id software can make a good multi-player game as can be seen in Q3A. They can also make a good single-player game as can be seen in almost all of Id's other games. Hopefully, Id software will put the two together to make one outstanding game.

    Have a nice day,
  • Personally, I can't wait. It's always been my favorite mind-numbing waste of time...
  • This will be id's seventh basic iteration of a first-person shooter

    Looks like they don't get that many ideas from the deep!

  • I'm pretty sure "2 weeks" is an old in-joke. IIRC (and I probably don't), at one point, Quakeworld, or something, was supposed to ship in 2 weeks and kept getting pushed back.

    Does this ring a bell with anyone? Geez, that was a while ago...
  • - It comes out in 2 weeks. (Maybe 3, maybe 1.5)

    Umm, 2 weeks? I knew that Carmack was a programming god and all but that's one damn impressive release date.

    Whatever happened to, "It'll be done when it's done"?

    ;-)

  • Worldcraft is owned by Valve, and is only made compatible with Half-Life.

    --
  • what comes out in 2 weeks? the test? the game? probably the hype .
  • A Linux port is good news. The article mentioned, however, that it would take some time. Anyone want to start a pool for how long "some time" will be?
    Ah well, looks like I'm back to duel-booting.
    --
  • Cool fact of the day: the earth is round!
    --
  • Nah, I used to agree, but lately I've just played through Deus Ex, which has absolutely zero multiplayer, and I still think it was worth the money I spent. To each his own I guess.

    I suppose it would be *nice* if it had multiplayer, but the concentration on the single player experience led to a really great single player game.

  • I think that it's a good thing that they aren't focusing on multiplayer. I believe that with Q3 they tried too hard to get perfect multiplayer, but it was nowhere near as much fun as Quake 1 or Doom.

    Perhaps if they're not concentrating on the multiplayer angle they might accidentally create the next killer mp game as they've done twice before :)

    BTW, I'm still play Q1 (QW) and (IMO) it is by far the best physics engine (fun-wise) created.

    nf
    nf

  • If you're writing code from scratch and are going to use C++ I'd recommend using the standards in C++: Namely The Standard C++ Library and Standard Template Library (STL). Spending time learning how to program more generically in C++ can save you vast amounts of efforts in implementing what you need. It's also more fun to program since you've already got the tools you need, and you can focus more on overall design.

    However, one bad thing about C++ templates are the arcane error-messages you may get during compilation d;-P

    - Steeltoe
  • "It comes out in 2 weeks."

    I have a feeling what he meant was, "The other OS ports will be available 2 weeks after the Win32 release."

    (The UNIX ports of earlier id software came well after the main release. Quake 3 was released on everything simultaneously, but distributors held back the non-Windows versions)
  • Umm..wow...wasn't Daikatana supposed to promise us this much? I personally play Half-Life CounterStrike [counter-strike.net]. great play, and it keeps evolving even more.

    JoeLinux
  • ...and hope that Adrian reads about it.
    The perfect first person game would feature:
    • Morphing scenery : Imagine a game in which the landscape would change between each play. As if it was alive itself, like the towers in a chess game...
    • Ultimate playability : Commander Keen [456]. Nuff said...
    • Editing capabilities : Well, the editor will have to be excellent, quick and easy as the BeOS 3D mixing deck. This is the hardest point.
    • Multiplaying abilities : Imagine if you could not only fight with or against one another as a warrior or as any creature or (why not) as a rocket tower or whatever...
    • multiple view : So that it could fit most computers or displays :
      • 3D
      • 3D Isometric (like in Diablo)
      • 2D, like in Keen.
    Now, if a game featured all of these, do you seriously think it would be possible to abandon it once "finished" ?
    Do you also think it could be possible to finish it ?
    I bet these are ideas that M. Carmack could follow.
    But this could also man that Doom200 would be a cross between Quake3, Commander Keen and... Civilization. (I'd buy it for sure).
    --
  • no no no. "Two Weeks" is the amount of time Quake2 took. Yes, I realize Quake2 took longer than that, but that was the official Id line. "When will Quake2 be released?" "Two weeks". It's the same thing as Quake3 Arena's "When it's done". Apparently now, it's going to be "Two weeks (or 1.5 or 3)". This is simply Id's long standing tradition of taking as much time as they need to build their technology demos.<br>
  • hmmm.... this "duel-booting" sounds interesting... don't tell microsoft or else Windows 2001 might start "duelling" with your linux partition. Better warn Linus!

    (I usually don't make of mis-typing... but I just found that a very striking image!)

    -rt-
  • I know FPSs need a simple overall plot to follow, but he could throw in some really evil subplots.

    I can't really agree about the plot needing to be simple - Marathon's plot was so baffling (in a good way) that there was an entire website devoted to discussion of wtf was going on. This complemented the gameplay (and in particular the level design, which gave a tremendous sense of real architecture as well as good gamplay space) superbly, and IMHO really lifted the Marathon games above Doom and Quake as a single player experience, even though the technology was only a little ahead of Doom.

    Steff

  • BeOS port (Score:4)

    by Jeremi ( 14640 ) on Saturday August 05, 2000 @11:44PM (#876717) Homepage
    I'll be grumpy all day if they don't port to BeOS!
  • Thief and it's sequel, Soldier of Fortune?
  • That's not my point... my point is that the medium is to a great extent -dead-. There's nothing -new-. They (and many others) continue to produce the same game... It's like receiving a magazine all year with the same content in every issue, with different ads, a new cover and maybe different paper... as I originally said: Who cares? Who really cares if another Doom is produced?

    -- Phenym (Logged in this time)
  • Here at The End of The Internet [infinitevisions.net] it's 6:20 am and I'm not expecting to go to be anytime soon.

    Compile just finished...

    Expect an announcement soon for a cool open-source cross-platform application framework.

  • I thought they already had Steven King develop all their stories. They're so boring and hackneyed.
  • since 2 years generally is the amount of time id wants to spend for new games.

  • Carmack and the Mac... (Score:4)

    by Sir_Winston ( 107378 ) on Saturday August 05, 2000 @11:52PM (#876723)
    I'm betting that Carmack's evangelism of the newer Mac platforms will mean a resurgence of Mac gaming. Not that people haven't always been gaming on the Mac, but most of us will admit that Mac ports have been of secondary concern for most of the top games and companies for the past few years. (Of course, as an aside, I'd like to note that my intro to computer gaming was on a Mac, with Wolfenstein 3D and a Mac-only game called Barrack--anyone remember Barrack?)

    I've noticed a bit of an increase in Mac ports of big-name games and an increase in advertising for them in Mac sections of ads from CompUSA and the like, and coincidentally(?) I've noticed this spike since a couple months after Carmack started praising the Mac as a game dev platform. Has anyone else noticed this, or have I killed too many brain cells and am now just imagining it? I'm curious as to what others think about this, and how others think Carmack's support might be positively affecting Mac gaming.

  • Well the Half-Life storyline was both realistic and intriguing. I mean, it was actually probable and along the way everything you encountered was pretty much feasable. It built a consuming reality, and have real goals that you *wanted* to achieve (if I get to the other side of the facility, the scientists might tell me what's going on; yay rescue is here - why the hell are they attacking me!)

    Star Trek the Next Generation was high science fiction. It was very plausible. Every Star Trek past STNG has been a pathetic and lame soap opera and they should just shoot the franchise in the head to put it out of its pain.

    And Independence Day sucked ass. (wow, aliens are attacking us, I feel scared, yet strangely patriotic and bonded to my fellow human being, disregarding any superficial differences we may have, let's fly fighter planes and upload a "virus" from a mac to the alien mothership). *YAWN* The only thing that was more hackneyed than that was Armageddon which couldn't even make the pretense of making any sense. (wow, I didn't know you could breath air without a space suit on an asteriod)
  • Anyone remeber The Lost Vikings? I want to see *that* as a 3D first-person game.

    Umm, how exactly would the lost vikings work as a 3D game? IIRC, Olaf's shield went either up or forward. in a 3D world, monsters would simply attack from the sides, making the shield useless.

    Not to mention other things.

    Besides, the game's emphasis was on goofy problem solving. That wouldn't translate well to a 3D FP environment.
  • Enough people to ensure that id makes a profit, if nothing else.
  • It is not so foolish. Andover.Net did a study which found that most slashdot regulars are adolescent masturbaters of the most prolific sort. From now on the banner adverts will be targeting slashdot's peculiar demographic.
  • Counter-Strike is a team game. It's not a co-op game. Co-op, as incorporated into Doom, Quake, and (blech) Quake2 involves multiple players completing the single-player aspect of a game. CS, CTF, and Team DM are not co-op.
  • Well, my opinion is that D1&2 was entertaining mostly in singleplayer mode, but pretty kool in multiplayer too.

    Q1 on the other hand was boring as #### as a singleplayer, but the multiplayer game.

    Q2 was a nice single player game, better than Q1, more sneaking and strategies. But the multiplayer mode was way too slow.

    Q3 is, well, kinda funny both in singel and multiplayer, but Q2 had better single player and Q1 better multiplayer, so... But, of course, the gfx was better in Q3. But that alone can't save a game. (Just look at Unreal(w.o. tournament;)).

    I think D3 will really kick ass, remember those fireball throwers, or the flying cyclope heads? Hehehe... By the way, when will we see Wolfenstein2? :)


    No, gimme Bubble bobble as a 1:st person shooter! Or commando, with Rob Hubbard music. :)

    --

    "I'm surfin the dead zone
  • Being a fanatical user of BeOS and Linux, I think I might be able to answer your question. Most BeOS user's are Jean-Louise fan's the way mac-fanatics are Job's obsessed (love and hate are only two sides of the same coin). They truly dig having one company determining the direction and features of the operating system, becuase it truly *does* improve the end user experience when everything is based on one driving force. Whether it actually makes a "better" operating system that way is a pov thing that I won't get into. Suffice it to say that I use *nix for all my server needs, and BeOS for my workstations :-)
  • Well, my first multiplayer experience was DOOM, and it is still my favourite.

    DOOM's single player was awful, but everything was changing when i had three other man to wander around and waiting for me to kill them. I do not know why but DOOM had some magic, and even QIII was unable to change it.

    Maybe it was the atmospehere or being able to kill *very* rapidly, or the feeling of being the *hunter* i cannot decide, but DOOM rocks.

    Now the question is will this DOOM sequel keep my gaming experince of DOOM or will it just use QIII like engine and some hype to make money? I really do not need a new game because DOOM I E 1 M 1 map can keep me playing for days.

  • Time to change the icon (Score:4)

    by jfedor ( 27894 ) <jfedor@jfedor.org> on Sunday August 06, 2000 @06:49AM (#876735) Homepage
    It's time to change that "Quake" topic icon for an "id Software" one.

    -jfedor

  • Re:That wasn't the carmack we know.. (Score:5)

    by John Carmack ( 101025 ) on Sunday August 06, 2000 @09:28AM (#876736)
    > what happened to that? apart from it: can you imagine ID coding something in c++

    First of all, the fact that none of our deployed games used OOP does not mean that I don't think there are benefits to it. In the early days, there were portability, performance, and bloat problems with it, so we never chose to deploy with it. However, all of the tools for DOOM and Quake were developed in Obejctive-C on NEXTSTEP. Q3 also came fairly close to have a JVM instead of the QVM interpreter, but it didn't quite fit my needs.

    I'm still not a huge C++ fan, but anyone that will flat out deny the benefits of OOP for some specific classes of problems like UI programming and some game logic is bordering on being a luddite. I still don't think it is beneficial everywhere, but, if anything, I think we are behind the curve on making the transition.

    > Carmack basically said, that single-player games suck from a money/replayability point of view

    This was a balancing act in company morale and politics. My first choice for future projects would be to pursue the snowcrash-like extensible virtual worlds, but most of the company wants to work on a game with a story. We have three new hires coming on soon, so we are growing somewhat to support it.

    > In the same interview he said, that he doesn't like integrated editors, and will never do so.

    That was a significant change in my stance over the last year. Did I actually say "never"?

    You can just take the short answer of "I was wrong", but here is the longer argument (I went over this some in the talk):

    Historically, we could make better games by using exotic and expensive development hardware or software that differed significantly from our deployment platform.

    While early games with integrated editors were hurting their 640k memory footprint and forcing developers to work with a 320 or 640 res screen for tool development, we were using NeXT workstations with megapixel displays for our tools.

    Given the option of a good rendering technology that required a lot of preprocessing, we bought first a quad alpha, then a 16 way SGI to do the processing.

    Even when we moved the editor to WinNT, it used intergraph workstation graphics, while our deployment platform was mostly still software rendered or possibly Voodoo based.

    The key thing that changed (after that earlier speech) was that the optimal development platform is now the same thing as the optimal deployment platform: x86 + nvidia.

    That is important. The tools/editor/game HAD to be separate before. Now, the question has to be looked at with a fresh view.

    There was a lot of code that was present in nearly identical form in the utils, editor, and game. Misc functions, image loading, model loading, pk3 filesystem support, etc. It was one of my big goals to make all that common.

    The obvious step would be to make libraries out of them, but I have something of a personal dislike for managing code that way.

    Rather than just endlessly debating the issues, I just took a day and combined the utility code into the main project. It went well, and I was happy with the many thousands of lines of code that got removed, and the increased functionality that resulted. Later, Robert did the same thing with the editor.

    I do fret about code bloat issues, but I feel quite good about all of the common and not-quite-orthogonal code that has been removed, and in the scope of the entire project, it really isn't that much space -- it adds maybe a megabyte to the executable, but it will never be paged in if you are just playing the game.

    I do think there are real benefits to the user community from having the tools with the game -- my earlier objection were always based not wanting to give up any possible advantages that we could have as developers.

    The advantages are going to be especially strong for the linux and mac platforms: the entire tool chain will be available from day one on every platform the game runs on.

    John Carmack

  • Hmm, i well remember the whole discussion about virtual machines, code security, mods running on different platforms without recompilation, etc... what happened to that? apart from it: can you imagine ID coding something in c++ ? I've yet to see something even vaguely OO from carmack.

    I'm actually surprised that this hadn't happened sooner. When you look at the massive potential for spaghetti code in the Quake engine, the man has to be commended for being on top of the entire engine for all this time. When id originally chose ANSI C for Quake, they said they did so for "speed and portability." Anyway, with the size of today's engines, you could see how this could make sense. Also, take note of how Carmack said they have 'a good sound programmer', and 'a good AI programmer.' Sounds OO like to me.

    Do you remember the leaked audio-interview from pre-q3 days? Carmack basically said, that single-player games suck from a money/replayability point of view. He even said that he wouldn't start a sp-game nowadays, because of the ever growing development time. (and could only be done right with a _massive_ devteam)

    All I can think about here is that Carmack is going to take two years to code this new engine from scratch, which means that even if the dev tools aren't interactive for six months, there's a lot of time to create a new game with.

    - The game and editor/tools are now combined. You'll be able to simply type doom.exe -editor for example (Or maybe even an in-game toggle)

    Alright. This is wierd. However, it's a natural progression. If we have ingame editing, most likely we won't be using BSP trees anymore, or perhaps we will turn culling off when we walk around. I think such a thing could be handled as a mod in the game. It just makes more sense than some win32 app that has completely different requirements than the game itself.

  • The only people who think Half-Life storyline is great are people who think that Star Trek is high science fiction and Independence Day is the best movie ever made. The plot was hackneyed from start to finish. It was on par with an episode of the old Superman TV series.

  • 2 weeks (Score:3)

    by Steve Gibson ( 30331 ) on Sunday August 06, 2000 @09:42AM (#876739) Homepage
    Well since I run Shugashack.com I figured I would clarify for you guys.

    2 weeks was just my idea of a bad joke. A few years ago id was famous for saying '2 weeks' for release dates.

    There was no actual mention of a release date given.
    -Steve Gibson

  • I've noticed a bit of an increase in Mac ports of big-name games and an increase in advertising for them in Mac sections of ads from CompUSA and the like, and coincidentally(?) I've noticed this spike since a couple months after Carmack started praising the Mac as a game dev platform. Has anyone else noticed this, or have I killed too many brain cells and am now just imagining it? I'm curious as to what others think about this, and how others think Carmack's support might be positively affecting Mac gaming.

    Actually, I think it is Apple who have been pushing Mac gaming, and Carmack is just one (significant) part of that. For years Apple was neutral or even openly hostile towards games on its platform. Since Jobs returned and the company has become more consumer-oriented, there has been a concerted drive to get more games developers onto the platform. The number of games ports onto the Mac has increased dramatically, as you have noticed.

    Certainly wooing Carmack to the merits of the platform has been a big part of that strategy, but so has the general push to help all game developers. It has also helped that Apple has bought better game-related hardware to the Mac, both directly and through third-party support.

  • Re:That wasn't the carmack we know.. (Score:5)

    by John Carmack ( 101025 ) on Sunday August 06, 2000 @10:06AM (#876742)
    Alright. This is wierd. However, it's a natural progression. If we have ingame editing, most likely we won't be using BSP trees anymore, or perhaps we will turn culling off when we walk around. I think such a thing could be handled as a mod in the game. It just makes more sense than some win32 app that has completely different requirements than the game itself

    "In game editor" is probably being confused here somewhat. I am NOT talking about running around in the game, moving brushes around as you play. The editor is still a completely different user interface, with multi-view outlined drawing in addition to a 3D view. It just happens to live in the same executable as the game, and shares lots of code with it.

    John Carmack

  • I'm pretty sure "2 weeks" is an old in-joke. IIRC (and I probably don't), at one point, Quakeworld, or something, was supposed to ship in 2 weeks and kept getting pushed back.

    I don't think it's an "in"-joke at all. I remember "about two weeks" being the time estimate for a whole bunch of software projects, even pre-quake (remember those days?).

    "It'll be ready in two weeks" really just means "it'll be ready when it's ready".

    I suspect there is something about software engineering, that everything appears to be solvable within two weeks but during those two weeks new things pop up.

  • Remember that in the days of Doom, most people didn't even know that multi-player capabilities existed! You needed to start doom with command line arguments to set that up. And people still played doom for years. They made tons of single player mods and maps. The entire mod community has its roots in Doom.

    Now think about the current best single player only games like Thief 2. I played Thief and Thief 2 through. Know what I did after that? Played it again on a higher skill. With self-imposed restrictions. Then I downloaded a bunch of user maps and played those. I'm still in love with those games.

    Doom 2000's success as a game is tied into two factors:
    #1: How fun the cooperative game mode is
    #2: How easy the editor is to use

    If the game is fun to play _with_ your friends, not against them, and if the editor doesn't stand in the way of creating good levels, the game will be successful.

    -Ted
  • but most of us will admit that Mac ports have been of secondary concern for most of the top games and companies for the past few years.

    Well, that's what you'll get when you use a computer with a mouse with only one button... ;-)

    --

    "I'm surfin the dead zone
  • I'll be incredibly and pleasantly surprised if Carmack and company pull a rabbit out of their hats and give us a story.
    Perhaps they could hire Steven King to develop a story. I know FPSs need a simple overall plot to follow, but he could throw in some really evil subplots.
  • From the MacOS X Documentation:

    In Objective-C, objects are identified by a distinct data type, id. [...] All objects, regardless of their instance variables or methods, are of type id.

    id anObject;

    Everything's id?
    That's why Carmack likes MacOS X so much! He must be very proud having his own data type...

  • The qualities that made (make?) DOOM/II and Quake so re-playable have almost NOTHING to do with any real sense of 'story'. What keep you going in those games is a sense of urgency and mystery. The payoff for solving one mystery (level) is the unveiling of yet another. Both those games created a sense of place and space like no other, while maintaining an impossibly high level of interface/playability.

    The much lauded (by some) System Shock lost me from the get-go due to it's poorly engineered interface. Why they chose to compete with ID on that issue I'll never guess, but they didn't come close enough and got dumped because of it. Their story and sound effects may have been great, but if the interface ain't up to par, people won't play it.

    A bad director can take a great script and still make a bad movie.

    A great director can take a so-so script and make a really good movie.

    Don't even get me going about Thief or Thief II. Great ideas, miserable production. A buggy, unplayable mess as far as I'm concerned. They could have used the Q2 engine and saved themselves a lot of trouble.

    Having recently started playing Balder's Gate, I must say, it's fun, but the level of 'storytelling' isn't really that much beyond the level of Quake or doom. It still boils down to 'slay monsters, reap rewards, advance, slay bigger monsters, reap rewards, etc.,'. Nothing wrong with that, but nothing to brag about either.

  • Its about Multi-Player. (Score:3)

    by Mullen ( 14656 ) on Sunday August 06, 2000 @10:14AM (#876759)
    I glad to see that Id is making a game that will fun to play as a single player, but what happens when you finish it? Play it again; maybe. But what happens when you play it couple of times; you play multi-player.

    Good example is Half-Life. An very good single player experience, but the multi player sucked. The single player stuff only gets you so far, then it is a multi player game.

    If you only can play single player, then you give it to your cheap friend and buy something else. With good online playing, you keep it, and play it online and recommending it to all your friends. A hugh online community builds up, and the software make tons of sales from word of mouth.

    I, personally (I'm not a software sales tracker or gaming sales expert), think that games that target online playing do much better, and are more enjoyable to play. Q3 sucks as a single player, but online, rules. Thus, there are now coming out a bunch of great mods (q3Fortress, Urban Terror, Weapon Factory), with the new Doom, I think this will not happen. Ya, its great eye candy, but when you finish it you will toss it on the shelf and buy the "next thing" and not recommend it to friends.

    Maybe its just me.

  • I forgot to mention what makes Doom and Quake so re-playable, after the sense of urgency and mystery is gone. I think that has to do with the sense of athleticism that comes with mastering the game at higher and higher levels, as well as multi-user play.

    Quake II failed excelled at athleticism, but lost in terms of single-play, not because of a poor story, but because the maps and monsters did not create a sense of urgency or mystery. It was too easy to see through the curtain a bunch of hastily thrown-together scenarios.

    I never finished single-player Q2 and never will. It bored me to tears once the 'tech marvel' nature of it was gone.

    Cheers and high hopes for the new Doom!


  • Doom (1 & 2) was "focused on single-player." It had great single-player and great multi-player.
    Quake 1 was "focused on multi-player." It had good single-player and good multi-player.
    Quake 2 was "focused on single-player." It had terrible single-player but good multi-player.
    Quake 3 was "focused on multi-player." It just sucked as far as gameplay goes.

    Doom 3 is "focused on single-player." That could mean anything.

    Of course, that is all my opinion. You are free to think otherwise. :) Also, I am rating the game itself with no special mods.

    Anyone remeber The Lost Vikings? I want to see *that* as a 3D first-person game.

    ------

  • Co-Op?? (Score:4)

    by bug_hunter ( 32923 ) on Sunday August 06, 2000 @12:41AM (#876777)
    I get too good at my games and deathmatch is unfair against less experienced players on my network so I always look out for a good co-operative game.

    What co-op games really need is a don't look at me shrug (simular in theory to q2,q3 taunt animation), for after you shoot your teammate in the back with a double barrel.

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