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Mozilla The Internet

Mozilla M16 Up For Grabbing 182

Posted by timothy from the this-is-my-browser-there-are-many-like-it dept.
Cioby writes: "No news on the homepage (yet), but on [the mozilla.org nightly builds page] M16 builds started to appear. Go Mozilla, GO! :)" True enough -- though M15 is the latest milestone listed, M16 has been available from the nightly builds for over a month. M16 rocks pretty well, too, though I haven't tried out its transparent gif feature yet. Hard to complain about a nightly release schedule ... [Updated 8:50GMT by timothy] (Sigh) -- Yes, that ought to say "transparent png," not gif. Guess I haven't tried that either.
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Mozilla M16 Up For Grabbing More

Mozilla M16 Up For Grabbing

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  • I have to admit I was confused at first to....
    Although the check mark here (The Netherlands) is used mostly as possitive (correct) the first thing I noticed was the red and green colors, not the shape.....

    Jeroen

  • I can't tell if that's flamebait or making fun of flamebait, but LOL

    > you freak

    :)
  • > Face it. GPL is not about free speech...

    What is GPL about? Not free beer. I'd pay money for good, Free, libre GPL software.
  • It seems as if Slashdot has done it again! M16 is not officially out yet and even when it is this is still alpha (maybe beta if you push it) quality code. There are still a lot of issues that need to be worked out so don't complain when things might crash or be slow!

    For a simple timeline of the seamonkey project (the heart of mozilla) goto:

    http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/mileston es/

  • I guess the fact that Microsoft just demonstrated IE on OS X with Apple doesn't mean anything?

    Yes, it means something... chiefly that MS is selectively supporting whichever Unix variants they want. It means that they could port the whole (imho stinking) glob of goop to, say, FreeBSD, and it would work just as "well."

    Well, it's their choice in the end...

    --

  • I have WinNT 4 on one of my workstations at work (usually not too bad) but M16 isn't too stable on it.

    The ever-so-helpful Dr. Watson gleefully informs me that "An application has generated an error log" and takes my Mozilla away very very often. It does run really fast on NT, but goes away with the same speed.

    Mozilla runs great on my Ultra 5 tho...

  • You seem to defend Microsoft too much...and your "perspective" seems mighty Microsoftian.

    Netscape 6 PR1's CSS support blows Microsoft's away; in fact, it has the least number of bugs, and was claimed to have the best CSS support of all the browsers in an article right here on Slashdot. So, you're comment that IE's CSS is better than Netscape's "ever was" is just plain wrong.

    Then, you make a big deal about how good OLE/ActiveX is...that's wonderful...and they run on how many platforms again? That's right, one. XPCOM might sound like a rehasing of COM, and maybe it is, but XPCOM runs on at least ten different platforms; that's what makes it a "big deal," and rather cool IMO.

    Next on the block: components. IE has them. Mozilla has them. Mozilla's are better. Because I can guarantee you that Mozilla won't crash Gnome or KDE. Mozilla won't crash X. And Mozilla certainly won't crash Linux. IE's track record isn't so stellar.

    You seem to be missing the point that people like you are the type of people that allow Microsoft to exist as a monopoly. "It just works better," you cry, and while in some messed up view of things, it might (Windows is more integrated, for instance), what will you say when there is nothing but Windows NT 2005, and you can't run any software but the software MS wants you to run?

    I for one, don't want to know find that answer out experimentally.

  • I'm rather disappointed that there isn't a Solaris nightly build any longer. Where I am [www.ens.fr] we have a network of PC's under Linux and Sparcstations under Solaris. To make Mozilla the default browser for all students we would need a Solaris build.

    I discussed this on the netscape.public.mozilla.unix [mozilla.org] newsgroup, and it seems something broke the build automation process under Solaris and they didn't have time to look into it.

    Speaking of which, I have never, ever, been able to build Mozilla myself, on any platform, to give something which looks even remotely like what they ship. Most of times it fails completely, and the reason for failure is not even systematic: it varies according to whether I made a CVS checkout or took a source tarball, it depends on whether I used "make" or "make all", on how I ran configure, and all sorts of things. Even typing make twice, with make clean in between does not give the same error twice. Mostly I get weird C++ errors which I don't understand because I only grok C (errors like "class fooBarMumbleBuz was instantiated with a virtual method frobnicateMeHarder whereas it only has non-virtual constructors", which really don't mean a thing). I also got a lot of unresolved symbols. Strange things.

    Not even worth making a bug-report for, because nothing is systematic, every time I retry it's different.

    Has anyone had more success?

  • It works! It works! I scoff at Netscape's puniness as Mozilla happily provides me the spectrum fading to black (and the other colors ...)

    Nice!

    timothy
  • Myplay locker (p2 of 555) [clr.gif]
    [sml_conr.gif] [clr.gif]
    [not_play.gif] Problems playing?
    [dotline_grey.gif]

    555 .... 5/6ths of the beast

    Kate Bush
    [dead_info.gif] Hounds Of Love
    6:13 rock MP3 128K Edit
    [ ]
    [sml_play.gif] Hounds Of Love

    I wonder if it'll work on Quark
  • Dr Skwid wrote: "Well Tim, one of the wonderful things about IE, apart from it works well as an HTML browser is the power you have in it as a program shell in an Intranet environment. [...] IE is more than an HTML renderer and Mozilla et al is never going to get a foot in the door in such an environment. Would I be correct in assuming you've not done much corporate programming?"

    Absolutely correct on that last :) Thanks for pointing this capability out.

    I know that Mozilla doesn't have ActiveX support as you point out, but it is / can be used as the front end for some applications ... please tell me if I'm speaking nonsense, but for a) a remotely hosted application with an interface written in plain old html so that all browsers could read it or b) a locally-run application written in Java, couldn't any browser that supported Java serve?

    And from what I read, Mozilla is more than an HTML renderer, too, isn't it? I thought one of the chief points about Mozilla was extensive componentization ... The /. article on the last develpr's conference mentioned "XMLterm -- an Xterm-like interface written using the Mozilla component libraries" and quoted a developer .. " it's not just a browser, it's a set of tools. During the group discussion, one developer even said 'I'd like to see Mozilla come out and not have any browser with it.'

    Again, thanks for mentioning something I hadn't considered.

    timothy
  • I too think Mozilla is currently too slow (but I believe that will change in the future), but how exactly low-end is your machine? I remember running windows 95 w/ IE 4 on a 486 dx 66.... I was running a small webserver from it, and the only way to configure it was through the web browser. It was as slow as hell! Needless to say, that box became a linux box as soon as I found out how to do NAT in linux. So, just wondering if you are suffering from the same situation.


    He who knows not, and knows he knows not is a wise man
  • What's your system?
  • Take a look at Table renderer crashes on large tables [mozilla.org]. This may or may not be what is happening...
  • Jikes wrote: "Crashes are becoming significantly more difficult to find... it is now more pleasant to use than NS4 for me... less UI niggles... FASTER. Good. Goodbye netscape 4... FUCK IT.... Mozilla is going to be so radically more modifiable and fluid and extensible and NICE... oh wait, it already IS."



    Yup. The pages load a wee bit slower than under NS for me, but they actually scroll more smoothly once there. Nicer UI (in my view) as well.

    I'd been shy about Mozilla for a while when it kept fouling up forms or leaving artifacts all over the screen, and I skipped M15 completely, but I got brave again (over dialup no less) and my 2-nights-ago build finally works with the slashdot backend;)

    "Goodbye NS4, we hardly loved ye ..."

    You said it. Hard to believe the Mozilla project is only 2 years and change out of the gate. Compare that to the ueber-funded IE and the difference is pretty amazing.

    I know many people like IE, but until they release a version for Linux I can't make all that great a comparison:) Still, from using it on borrowed computers, while IE seems blandly acceptable, I don't remember anything about it which makes me hanker for That Redmond Feeling. What am I missing?

    Next stop, Konqueror ...

    timothy

  • Looks like that what's happened -- unlike yours, somehow my 2-nights-ago Mozilla build read it fine, and like yours, so did my Netscape.

    Fixed it now, thanks for the pointer.

    timothy
  • There is an at least partially working XSLT parser in the tree. I'm not sure how far along it is and it's not being done by the Netscape-employed Mozilla team.

    Now, you bitch about Mozilla not supporting XSL, but which is better; waiting for a standard to be finalised or releasing before the standard is finalised and then finding out it's changed already? IE5 has that problem, although I note from the W3C XSL page that MS have released an update for its XSL implimentation. Now all they have to to is get namespaces working correctly.
  • "COM has been around in one form or another since the 1990s..."

    Didn't COM evolve (indirectly) from OLE? Or am I on the /.Moderator Brand $3.00 Crack(tm)?

    "It was developed to allow objects to be called remotely, and sortta, transparently"

    Really transparently. I don't need to know anything about a remote {method|object|property} other than what it wants and what it returns. That's the whole point behind CORBA.

    "...byut(sic) a majority of the the ideas for embedding, object exposing, persistance, monikers etc are all based on COM."

    and

    "...Microsoft should get a nod for COM since it's being copied left and right by the OSS community."

    <MEANDERING THOUGHT>
    Is it really being copied, per se? Or is it just generally a Good Idea(tm)? I mean, who wouldn't want to be able to expose API to whatever needs it?

    Kinda like the standard C classes (stdio and the like (except that you don't have to #include them)) - it's simply a natural progression of good programming practice.

    Do you have examples to show that OSS is outright copying COM? (Not a flame - I'm genuinely interested)
    </MEANDERING THOUGHT>

    Here's my [redrival.com] copy of DeCSS. Where's yours?
  • And Mozilla certainly won't crash Linux. IE's track record isn't so stellar.
    Eh? Every release of Mozilla I've had so far has crashed on a semi-regular basis on either Linux or Windows.

    I assume that's Mozilla crashing, which is very distinct from Linux crashing. And if you think IE is so great, just watch it autodetect proxy settings or crash in SUNWAMD.DLL. IE5's kernel integration results in the machine needing a reboot whenever it crashes. NS 4.70's bad crashes can usually be fixed by killing the leftover process with Ctrl-Alt-Del (unless it's the infamous ADVERT32.DLL infinite crash loop). Mozilla, OTOH, is not complete yet, and cannot be compared (sensibly) with the finished IE5.


    -- LoonXTall

  • Re:User Profiles (Score:3)

    by Matts ( 1628 ) on Monday May 22, 2000 @03:28AM (#1057313) Homepage
    Tne answer is so that web developers can run 2 copies of mozilla at the same time with different preferences. One might view it with a different font DPI, or with Javascript turned off.

    Quite useful, actually, especially on a controlled environment where you can't create a new logon for development purposes.
  • M16 from 5/21/00 on my Macintosh: rendered with red squares.

    The sad state of things at the moment is that multi-browser compliant code has to support the lowest common denominator (ie. NS4), so if you were doing that then you would not be able to use dotted anyway.

    The sad state of things at the moment concerning multi-browser compliant code and designing to the lowest common denominator is the fact that it all could have been prevented by Microsoft. Had they felt the need to allow the internet to continue to be platform independent when they first began work on their original browser, they would have concentrated on developing html rendering as close as possible to that of the Netscape browser which, at the time, was used by the vast majority of people on the internet. Instead they spent no time ensuring consistency and all their time on monopolization strategies that have them in court right now. There have been a lot of non-standards complaint work on both sides since then, but in the begining I remember wondering, "why do all these pages look different in internet explorer".

  • I thought all right minded Slashdotters were boycotting Gifs, transparent or not.

  • Works perfectly under Linux... you should file a Bugzilla [mozilla.org] bug if you can reproduce this on Win32.

    • Well Tim, one of the wonderful things about IE, apart from it works well as an HTML browser is the power you have in it as a program shell in an Intranet environment.

    My God! Read your own words man! This wonderful Intranet program shell is an Internet program shell too! Does it ring any bell?

    Netscape and Mozilla are trying to do a god job at precisely what they are supposed to do: browse the web.


  • Hmmm strange, methinks it still sucks!

    On Windows,it crashes everytime I use it, within at least 5-10 minutes.

    Also the back button doesn't always work. For example, if you go to www.theregister.co.uk, and click on a news item, when you press the back button, it doesnt take you back tot he main theregister page, it takes you back to the previous site! Whah?? This happens on other sites as well.

    So, I'm sorry, but IE5 it is guys!
  • My advice to you, friend, is to use an account, go to the preferences page, find the "Exclude Stories from homepage" section and check "Mozilla". Because you obviously don't care. Thanks. But personally I think you'll miss out on information about what is becoming one really cool application.
  • It works perfectly in IE5.5
    IE5.0 indeed does just red taping.
    Netscape just doesn't even render the borders.

    I guess IE again, wins again.

    (may i just say IE5.5's circle dots look much cooler than mozilla's cheapo square dots).
  • Uh.. yes, but there are other image formats **PNG** which support alpha channels, and having mozilla support them will be really nice. What i'm really interested in right now though is if M16 has working crypto support, because working crypto is the only thing holding me back from using mozilla full time.
  • Uhhh... where is that document? I don't seem to be able to find it.

    Though that's not the reason I'm posting. It seems that if a troll is defined as anything that goes against the slashdot party line, you really have to define the line too..
    Does it let people express pro-Microsoft opinions? or anti-linux opinions. It should, if they are well thought out, and not just "linux sux0rs".
    A good post is still a good post, whether it's against the party line or not.
  • Use JunkBuster [junkbusters.com]. It's free software [fsf.org].

    --
  • One of my favorite test pages for PNGs is this page [w3.org] (over at w3.org). Unfortunately, the page itself is so weirdly designed, that I can't really determine if Mozilla renders it correctly or not. I even emailed the page's author once, since I suspect there's something wrong with the correct/incorrect demo pictures, but that didn't make me smarter... Is it only me who has problems parsing a red check mark and a green cross into "correct"/"incorrect"? It just makes my brain hurt.
  • Accroding to Mozilla's resume [dice.com], it agreed to it...

    Link first sighted in NTK [ntk.net]

  • The recent discussion [slashdot.org] about alpha channels is about a complete and solid support for the PNG file format. GIF isn't a ./-loved format due to it's stupid license.

    Stéphane
  • I think you lot should go easy on Mozilla, remember these are "snapshots", not official releases.
    Though it's true that it is a bit slow, the latest builds are a hell of a lot faster than the older builds, and in only a few days use, I can honestly say that Mozilla rocks!

  • Mozilla/Links (Score:3)

    by Jikes ( 123986 ) on Monday May 22, 2000 @12:46AM (#1057328)
    ***MOZILLA***

    Few more things...

    Mozilla/static/x86/linux is like 7MB compiled/gzipped. I wish they would Bzip2 the bastards. I have not tried any auto-installer for any platform...

    The emailer is becoming far more competent. I will enjoy supporting it. Multiple POP3 accounts, al crossplatform. (drool) Goodbye you fucking identities.

    The HTML editor is tres-slick... I'm confident it will suck cock for the first netscape release, but oh well..

    Keybindings are still a bitch for all platforms. Finicky, tempremental. Fuckit. FUCKIT. I hate that.

    Mozilla has the most open development of any project I can think of. No months-of-silence, open CVS tree, open mailing lists, open development discussions, open documentation, public builds for platforms on the HOUR, decent license, open source bugtracker, open buglists, open discussion, GOBS of FTP power, great feedback methods, all is very very nice. Oh yeah, and a script on the homepage that shows EVERY code update made in the last day or so, plus exceptional code navigation tools, all on the web.

    Mozilla/NS may never take over every desktop, but does it really need to? It's going to fill shitloads of niches that IE in all it's forms (yeah even pocket explorer which has GOT to be completely new code) is not going to fit into... Look at the netscape4/unix builds going into web appliances... Imagine what mozilla is going to accomplish in the next 10 years...

    if nothing else netscape/AOL has opened up reams of competition, both from the Opera people, and people who will turn XPCOM/mozilla into a thousand different mutants...

    ***LINKS***

    For a text-based browser that is similar to lynx and w3m but INCREDIBLY lightweight, complete, easy-to-use, and just all around makes you want to cry with joy, please look into the GPLed 'links'.

    It is written in C, compiles anywhere, is way under a meg tarballed, and is the absolute most cruft-free thing I have ever used. Press 'g', go somewhere. It is nearly impossible to describe how fundamentally nice this program is.

    It does frames exceedingly well, flies with tables, and is magic over a modem. The interface is (somehow) more pleasant than lynx's and it has pulldown menus hidden with ESC for other options.

    It is the most underrated browser I have ever seen. The author is a god. My only complaint is that it fights with gpm for cut and paste.

    http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~mikulas/links/d ownload

  • What if the poster had written a message saying: "IE is irrelevant now that Mozilla is coming. After all, IE is in the hands of M$, an evil monopolist corporation run by lawyers and marketing types, which loves to screw its customers over.

    Well, he'd probably been followed up by about 5 people complaining how /. was nothing but a playground of brainless Linux zealots. Sound familiar?

    The calmer people would probably respond "IE never was relevant, considering that there's no linux version."

    He wouldn't be labelled a troll, true, but that is correct, taking into account the nature of /.

    Were that line posted on comp.os.windows.advocacy, then it would be a troll, just like the posting a few levels up was a troll on /.

  • A good format although optimised for planar displays rather than the chunky pixels most of us use today. Anyone know a browser that supports these? (presumably referring to amiga IFF Anim 7)

    Well, Netscape 4.x on Linux can, and will even render them in-page, with the Xanim netscape plugin [uni-erlangen.de] (included with Mandrake 7 as /usr/lib/netscape/plugins/xanim.so).

    I would guess that the Amiga [amiga.org] browsers (Voyager [vapor.com], IBrowse, AWeb) also could, through Amiga DataTypes.

  • Uhh... (Score:5)

    by legoboy ( 39651 ) on Monday May 22, 2000 @12:51AM (#1057331)

    Since nobody else has said so outright, I'll remind you all the actual milestone build of m16 is not yet out. These (as others *have* said) are the nightly builds along the path to m16. These have been available since before m15 was released.

    When M16 actually does come out (and it should be within a few days), it'll be available at ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/m16/ [mozilla.org].

    ------

  • My impression of what happens with a Mozilla milestone is that they start working on the next milestone even before the last is finalised. So although these nightly builds are aimed towards M16, it doesnt mean they are the actual milestone.

    If it doesnt say on the Mozilla release page, its probably not released.
  • You just have to remember, 1) All the debuging code is still in the built. Once that is removed, it will be alot faster, and use alot less memory. 2) This is still in the Alpha Software stage. Wait for a newer version, or help out. Don't complain about something if you aren't ready and willing to do something about it =)

    --pug
  • Is there a way to insert Java support into Linux Mozilla? Doesn't have to be perfect; just has to work...
    --
    Kyle R. Rose, MIT LCS

  • BillWinUsr who probably has no compiler ready

    If Mozilla were using GCC for Windows [mingw.org], this would be no problem. Bill could just double click make.bat and play some Minesweeper, Solitaire, or Vitamins [rose-hulman.edu] while GCC is compiling everything.

  • POssibly - I did manage to load the whole locker a gfew minutes ago, and I began trying to do things...

    Then it froze after I switched desktops and came back...

    Only 72 megs needed to render 2000+ entries.

    (BTW - thanks to whoever listened to that URL - I'm back at number 1)

  • I downloaded the win32 5/19 build this morning, and immediately set out to find a good test image. After a fruitless 10 minute search, I threw open PhotoShop and made one. The resulting image is in a test page at http://www.thedragonsforge.com/pngalph a.html [thedragonsforge.com]. Text on the page explains what the image is supposed to look like.




    Dracos
    "Integer: a number that represents any valid floating-point value"

  • which is better; waiting for a standard to be finalised or releasing before the standard is finalised and then finding out it's changed already?

    No contest.

    Shipping when it's workable, not waiting for the standards to settle. This is Internet Time - I barely have enough hours in the day to drink my coffee, let alone wait for the W3C. You should see the amount of Real Cash Money I've earned writing IE5 XSL product that I wouldn't have earned if I'd been waiting around, or taking the moral high ground that because IE5 wasn't compatible, then I was going to do it all server-side with XT.

    Client-side XML is a big enough benefit that whilst I may not sell my own soul to get it, I'll happily lease out that of some poor support minion in a few month's time.

  • Why do Slashdot print any garbage submission without even doing a cursory check to see if the facts are correct?

    The M16 release is not out yet and won't be for several weeks at least! The builds you see on ftp.mozilla.org marked with M16 are nightly builds on the M16 development branch and not the final product. There is a whole bunch of bugs and stabilisation to be done before M16 will be released. It does no good to bitch and moan about the quality of M16 at the moment since nightly builds vary wildly in quality from day to day.

  • >I *still* don't understand the user profile >support in the Linux version - surely linux >doesn't need it, since linux is a true multiuser >system anyway?

    Well, I have a set of dial in accounts from different providers, and all of them need their own set of proxy servers, POP3/SMTP to connect to. Profile support in this case would be pretty relevant. I hate to muck with the preference.js or log in and out of the system every time I use a different account.

  • Someone else provided the RichInStyle link so I didn't have to; they said Mozilla was "The best CSS browser available." Mozilla has 110 CSS bugs; your precious IE had 155 bugs.

    As for Mozilla crash, sure it crashes. But try reading what I wrote. I said Mozilla won't crash anything other than Mozilla. It won't crash X. It won't crash Linux.

    I've seen IE take down NT. Is being able to read that Word doc in IE so valuable to you now?
  • As long as I can remember, the Mozilla builds have crashed every time it interacts with the filesystem on my Debian distro. Segfaults every time I try and save or access a file. Anyone else seen this or have a cure?
  • TummyX wrote: "IE blandly acceptable? EXCUSE ME? How so? IE is superb, has superb standards support, is the fastest web browser out there, and is completely componentized."

    Well, actually on the systems I've used it on (Win 95 and 98, not 2000 yet) the scrolling was clunkier than it is under Netscape on Linux -- sort of a lagtime that turned me off. And as I said, since I don't have an MS OS around to play with it under, I am looking at browsers that actually run on the computers I use. But yes, I found IE OK, nothing more or less, in my occasions to use it. Not that it's not fine, but as you go on to say ...

    "It's people like you who've never really had to do much advanced HTML or XML, and sit there and go, hey netscape can render and so can IE...i'd rather use Netscape cause it's not microsoft."

    Thanks for the needless vitriol, ok?! Sheesh :) If you can get MS IE running under RH6.2, Mandrake 6.1 or 7.0, or Debian then I'd be much more willing to explore its finer capabilities. My experience with IE has mostly been expedient, not exploratory. Right now, I'm very happy that Mozilla has (IMO) surpassed NS, at least till NS catches up with the codebase it spawned ...

    Cheers,

    timothy
  • I can respect your decision if you have tried IE 5 for Macintosh and didn't like it, though I personally think it's a great browser that is less bloated than Netscape 4.7x, and it takes up less memory on my computer.

    But don't say things like "Anything that's not microsoft...", as that makes you no better than the people that say creative things like CrApple and Steve "Blow" Jobs.

    I'm not flaming anyone, but simply suggesting that you use a product based on its quality, and not its name.

    Hacksworth
  • Here is how various browsers treat this:

    Netscape 4.7 - no border at all
    Mozilla M14 - ugly square dots
    IE5 - solid border, no dots
    IE5.5 - nice-looking round dots

    (If anyone can do this in M16 and reply if it differs from M14, that would be good)

    W3C standard (which I looked up) does specify the dotted syntax.

    The sad state of things at the moment is that multi-browser compliant code has to support the lowest common denominator (ie. NS4), so if you were doing that then you would not be able to use dotted anyway.

    It will be good when NS4 support is generally viewed as no longer needed.
  • Mozilla out of the box may well not work with Junkbuster; it requires HTTP 1.1 to be turned off in Mozilla, as Junkbuster doesn't support that.

    Search Bugzilla for "Junkbuster" and you'll find the name of the pref. you have to set.

    Gerv
  • IE is completely irrelevant to me, since I don't use Windows or MacOS.

    I know that there are still weird things that happen to IE, though, that don't happen with Netscape. Co-workers have strange stability-related problems that probably have to do with the fundamental mis-design of Windows itself.

    I'm using Konqueror most of the time now, anyway. Fast, simple and open source.

    --

  • Uhh that was a troll you just fell for and it was a fucking great one too.

    I do not mind reading trolls that are as subtle, ingenious and entertaining as that one.

  • I'm still a Nutscoop user. I've been using communicator 4.7x for a good while now, but I'm wondering what is supposed to entice me to any future versions. Whilst it's interesting to see Mozilla proceed with future milestones, I'm not sure it's really worth the effort of changing.

    Unfortunately, both IE and Netscape/Mozilla are turning into bloatware and as a Mac user I'm starting to look to other projects, such as iCab [www.icab.de]. How can I justify allocating 30MB of memory to one program ?

    Stability aside (I know these shouldn't be considered in milestone builds), the last milestone build I tried was visually appalling. The user interface didn't seem to conform to anything on earth (mind you, does Quicktime or Sherlock ?) and the speed seemed to have taken a nosedive, with the HD thrashing away. (I assume the debug info is still in there).

    Someone has already made comments that more Mac coders could be done with on that particular build, but I'm not sure they'll get them. When Apple signed the deal with M$ to make IE the browser of choice, it was the nail in the coffin for any other browser, and I think it's starting to show. I don't like IE, but at the same time, I'm starting not to like Netscape either. It's gradually being assimilated into the AOL ways.... yuk.

    Just my 2p. I'm not sure a milestone release is newsworthy - a beta maybe...

    M.

  • Yes, but ofcourse everything that is being said about mozilla is exagerated.

    It's faster then Netscape, but still a heck of a lot slower then IE5. Yes mozilla is compnentized now, but IE has been for over 4 years, and noone here noticed it ...yeah yeah COM who the heck cares, i'm a linux haxor, i reinvent the wheel all the time, integration is bad..

    Netscape suddently decide to clone COM and call it xpCOM and now we get preaches of how cool xpCOM is.

    IE blandly acceptable? EXCUSE ME? How so? IE is superb, has superb standards support, is the fastest web browser out there, and is completely componentized.

    You're so aboslutely deluded.

    It's people like you who've never really had to do much advanced HTML or XML, and sit there and go, hey netscape can render <HTML></HTML> and so can IE...i'd rather use Netscape cause it's not microsoft.

    geeeee...try something a bit more advanced there, like DHTML, XML, VML...
  • That's good. The developers deserve SERIOUS kudos for the work they've done. Milestone 10 wouldn't do a damn thing on my machine, but 15 worked fine, just slow.

    I look forward to them removing that code as the software is great aside from the speed. Anything to get the hell away from Nutscrape 4.5:)

  • I've been peeved for a while now about the programming behind Mozilla. It showed the kind of ugly cludges that have ruined the Windows operating system. For instance, I could always see my GTK+ theme draw its stuff before Mozilla threw on its own coat of paint, to speak figuratively. This made things horribly slow. Pixmap themes in GTK+ are bearable, but noticeably slower than the alternatives. Now, layer two on top of each other? Horrid. However, with the latest night build downloaded, I find that everything is much snappier - and I can drag links between windows. I'm pretty much happy. I think I'll switch from Netscape 4.72 now. :)

    Keep up the good work, guys ;)

    Dave
  • Rendering a full locker is a test that I keep throwing at it, they give you gigs of free disk space for mp3's, but, a web browser isn't a particularly well optomised interface for working with it.

    Trying to display all my tracks basically means rendering a *huge* table - 1000+ rows with gifs and links on every one.

    Netscape needs abotu 256megs of memory and takes 10 minutes to do it - this is one of the reasons I'm waiting for mozilla to be able to do it (IE handles it perfectly - shame on us).

    Mozilla used to be able to do it. - but the latest build dies :-( Maybe it's just because I keep adding stuff to my collection and the test is getting harder - oh well.

    I can imagine some people here saying that the myplay locker design is stupid because it renders everything in one big table (well - the default is only 15 items). But you have to keep in mind that the browser from the evil empire handles it perfectly well - so shouldn't we be able to do a bit better. Arrrgghhh it's so tempting to take a look at this code myself.... as if I have any spare time...

    (Why don't you go listen to some of my stuff [myplay.com] while you're here - go on - you know that a slashdotter should be number 1. ;-)

  • Mozilla/static/x86/linux is like 7MB compiled/gzipped. I wish they would Bzip2 the bastards.

    mozilla-i686-pc-linux-gnu.tar.gz7382257 bytes
    mozilla-i686-pc-linux-gnu.tar.bz26478738 bytes

    Not a huge difference, and since most people are used to gzip I don't think the difference in size is enough to make them use bzip2.

  • Except that Microsoft put the nail in MSIE/Mac's coffin, because they're in the process of making a mad dash to tie MSIE/Win deeper into Windows before the courts can make a ruling, and they apparently decided that dropping MSIE/Mac (one of the best apps they've ever developed, critically acclaimed, etc.) was necessary to accomplish that goal.

    --

  • Apparently only on Windows; Microsoft is dropping MSIE/Mac (and I haven't heard anything about MSIE/Solaris lately but I suspect they're probably dropping that too).

    --

  • *shrug* it renders fine for me.
  • The UI is still relatively young. What they've been working on all this time is the rendering engine, the other peripheral technologies, a very portable foundation, etc.

    It wasn't that long ago that the Mozilla UI was a title bar and a menu.

    I'd say they've done amazing things in a short amount of time. Considering how ambitious the project is (a "platform", not just a browser), they've done pretty well.

    :wq!

  • Umm.. did you look at the detailed unix build info?
    it's a pig but all I do is use this command "make -f client.mk" and it checks out the latest tree uses my specific arguments
    "ac_add_options --enable-new-strings
    ac_add_options --enable-optimize"
    and it compiles if the tree is green.
  • It means nothing of the kind. The OS X version of IE 5 is written for Apple's Carbon APIs, which make it simple for current Mac apps to be ported to OS X. Unless Apple is planning to move Carbon to FreeBSD or Linux or whatever (which is about as likely as MS GPLing Office, and would probably take quite some time and money), having IE 5 on OS X doesn't help MS on any other *nix.

    --
  • I can't believe people are marking this post as a troll when it actually is a good informative post. So he is a little biased and angry--so what?!! This is one of the few posts that bring a little "reality" to this whole IE vs Netscape vs Mozilla thing.
  • Let's see, would that be the IE5.5/x86/win9x BETA? Or the one I can download for free from windowsupdate.microsoft.com today, assuming today has been redefined to be the future? Or the one that comes packaged with NT2k? Or the Mac version? I need clarity on this please. My arguments are quite important to me, and minutae is everything.

  • Mozilla: Makes Dots according to W3C CSS specifications.

    Every Released Version Of IE5.0: Does not make dots, as required by W3C CSS specifications.

    Apology accepted.
  • yep, I eggs-acktly. this is not the real M16, just a daily prerelese. I grab the dailies several times a week these days, and the one from last friday was not one of the most stable I've seen; most of the Preferences menu was broken (it probably has something to do with the DOM changes that were announced a while back in the Mozilla slashbox). Unless you're a Mozilla freak, I'd suggest waiting for the proper M16.
  • I mean, what can Mozilla do that IE doesn't do already?

    Run on my DG/UX box. And my Sparc Linux box. And my x86 Linux box. If you're going to troll, at least come up with something that isn't so trivial to counter...

  • Does Mozilla handle client-side XML yet ? And NO I don't mean the piss-poor CSS implementation that the earlier builds had.

    CSS on Mozilla is actually getting quite good. Last I checked, it was like 99% compliant with CSS1. To give credit where credit is due, IE 5 for the Mac is apparently fully compliant (but IE 5.5 for Windows isn't...the irony.)

    Anyway, the most recent table of client-side XML performance I've seen is this one on xml.com [xml.com], by Simon St. Laurent. In brief, Mozilla looks pretty good in this comparison. It's the only browser with XLink support of any kind, and handles a few other small things better than IE. Other than that, it's basically right up there. You mention XSL, but no browser has a standards-conforming XSLT at this point.

    More interesting to see will be how well things shape up for CSS2 and DOM support, assuming DOM Level 2 ever gets unwedged. You mention SMIL, but I would have to argue that full CSS2 and W3C-compliant DOM are much more important.

  • how long does it take for you to build a CVS check out?
    took two and a half hours this morning for me

    Heh. I love my Alpha :-) A little bit less than 30 minutes.
    --
  • Heya Mozilla, how about a non-debugging build for the Milestones on those platforms w/o 'easy compile' options? Give all these THIS-POS-IS-TOO-DAMN-SLOW opportunists to see what a build looks like w/o all the debugging overhead.

    Granted, you lose any option to debug problems the user may have, but perhaps at least give them the chance to see mozilla's true potential.

    (fwiw, I'm downloading source and building w/ and w/o debugging enabled just for laughs.. I'm thinking more along the lines of Joe MacUsr or BillWinUsr who probably has no compiler ready. That, and I'm getting sick of the ITS-TOO-SLOW whining)

  • This is better handled in the email client with multiple account structures. You don't have different font size preferences, history lists, etc. in the browser depending on which email account you want to access.

    There are some things you might want to keep in different user profiles though. Perhaps you NFS mount your home directory and access a single account form multiple boxes. In that case, you might indeed want different font sizes depending on what monitor you're using. But again, that's unrelated to your email account and shouldn't really reside in a "user profile", but a "machine profile" or "location profile". You are the same user every time.
    --

  • Is it not a bit non-specific to point out that rendering big tables sucks?

    I mean I'd presume they knew that...

    Although, this is the first version for a long time that has actually crashed during that test.

  • Re:SAY MY NAME BITCH (Score:3)

    by kevin805 ( 84623 ) on Monday May 22, 2000 @02:19AM (#1057397) Homepage
    Try margin widths expressed as percentages with a float to the side. Opera renders this by interpretting the it as x% of the available space. This seems to me what is implied by the box model. But IE 5 interprets these as x% of the total width of the containing box, which makes absolutely zero sense to me.

    I don't have a spec handy, and I don't remember whether it's width or margin that breaks it, but I do know I wanted to fucking strangle the IE developers after spending 4 hours tweaking my new homepage in IE and then having it break horribly in Opera, NS and Mozilla.

    It turned me off to web design, and sent me back to text only, 1993 style pages until Mozilla is actually usable.
  • I'm sorry, but your misunderstanding of COM and it's relationship of CORBA is wrong (but it's quite common among people around here).

    COM has been around in one form or another since the 1990s, COM was designed as a binary standard for calling methods. It was an attempt to unify all the different method calling standards.

    CORBA is generally an out of process technology. It was developed to allow objects to be called remotely, and sortta, transparently. DCOM which 'competes' (so to say) with CORBA came out about 6 years after the CORBA guys got together, but DCOM still doesn't really match CORBA, and I don't think Microsoft is interested in doing that either.

    DCOM at the moment at least, is used primarily on Windows for small things such as Windows Management Instrumentation (for COM API exposing) in small areas, some business do use DCOM for distributed work, but I think Microsoft is spending much more time pushing SOAP as it is more appropriate for hteregenous enviroments - Microsoft is realising Windows won't dominiate everything.

    Now, what COM is used for is a technology to expose APIs. Write a COM object that does something and instantly any language that works on Windows can access those APIs. No more worrying about importing C DLLs and converting between data types etc. COM also is the technology that allows embedding of visual objects (that's how many applications now use HTML thru Internet Explorer - ActiveX).

    ANyway, COM and CORBA are very different....

    CORBA may be used in OSS projects (such as Bonobo), byut a majority of the the ideas for embedding, object exposing, persistance, monikers etc are all based on COM. Essentially what they're doing is using CORBA as the bricks, and building a building out of it. The building just looks a lot like the building that Microsoft built using COM bricks...just not CORBA bricks.

    BTW, I'm not sure how relevant your windows is younger than unix statement is, well obviously...VMS is older than Unix, and NT is based on VMS :P.

    What I was trying to get thru, is that Microsoft should get a nod for COM since it's being copied left and right by the OSS community.
  • Yeah... and I'm sure the RIAA would lok favourably on me giving out my username and password so that the mozilla developers can see just how nasty the myplay setup can be. And another problem is that you can't really link to the problem pages inside the site. Gurrr

    I guess part of the problem is that they give you 3gb of disk space and some of the problems only occur after you've filled that up with a reasonable number of tracks - that can take a long time. (unless - like me you wrote a perl script to do it for you ;-)

    There are some other problems with the site - mostly javascript, e.g. saving the state of a playlist doesn't work.

    One victory for mozilla is the playlist editing screen which works much better than the either IE or Netscape - Congrats to the team on that one. Now if only I can save the state afterwards.....

    I'm looking at bugzilla - have you any suggestions on how to do handle the main report?
  • > Is this relevant anymore? I mean, what can Mozilla do that IE doesn't do already?

    Good question. Here's your good answer: It can be uncoupled from windows, in fact, it never was coupled with windows. It's solaris build (I assume) won't be a half-win32 port built in to let the browser run. Windows is big, yes. But mac, UN*X, BeOS and friends aren't dead. Netscape 4.xx is dead, thou. imho, and anyone arguing that it *doesn't* need to be replaced needs mental help. Matter of fact, a dyed in wool MS friend of mine *likes* mozilla, so I know you're just a troll and most MS windows users are more polite than yourself.

    Sorry if this sounds bitter, spend half the day in meetings instead of doing what I needed to do.

    bash: ispell: command not found

  • Does Mozilla handle client-side XML yet ? And NO I don't mean the piss-poor CSS implementation that the earlier builds had.

    I hate the Redmond behemoth as much as the next /.'er, but they've given me client-side XML in IE5, with an XSL that is weird, but usable. Until I get the same from Mozilla, I won't be switching my own desktop's browser. I'm even starting to not worry about writing IE-only code on public client sites (oh, the sweet temptation of this heresy, for which I shall certainly burn in the volcanic fires of monster island)

    Lately, I have mainly been running IE 5.5 (with a SMIL). Mozilla is getting a long way behind.

  • Really, this should be on top (+5). I can see why this would confuse people who don't regularly browse the mozilla.org FTP site, but it should be made clear that builds have been labeled as M16 since the day after M15. Despite that labeling, it isn't M16 until it is announced by mozilla.org. Of course, that should be within the week, and it isn't a big error on /.s part, but /.rs should still be aware that what they are getting isn't the real thing.

  • Mozilla nightlies (Score:5)

    by Sits ( 117492 ) on Sunday May 21, 2000 @11:50PM (#1057418) Homepage Journal
    Here's a working url for nightly builds (the one /. gave appears to be broke)
    Latest nightly builds [mozilla.org]

    M16 builds have been appearing for ages. The nightly builds are named after the upcomming milestone, so when M15 comes out all nightlies are now called M16... Take a look at the directory structure... [mozilla.org]

    On related stuff the new builds are getting quite a bit faster and now have stuff like autocomplete in them. There was a feature freeze not long ago so we should (hopefully) see builds becoming more stable.

    Linux moz is looking good although some old favourites (such as the scrollbars coming free bug [mozilla.org]) are still there.

    The mac builds are still lagging behind other platforms which is a shame. We really do need more mac helpers to stop it becoming a third rate platform (in terms of the quality of it's mozilla builds).

    From the little testing I've done on Windoze those builds seem good too.

    Plugs/Links:
    Visit Mozillazine [mozillazine.org]! It has a build bar that informs you how good previous builds are.

    Hang out in #mozillazine. If you've got irc (and you should because moz has one built in which can be launched from the prompt using mozilla -chat) use /server irc.mozilla.org then /join #mozillazine

    Got spare time and a fast connection? Help Smoketest [mozilla.org] the daily builds.

    New to mozilla? Take a look at NewZilla [gerbilbox.com]

  • Re:The delight of M16 (Score:3)

    by stripes ( 3681 ) on Monday May 22, 2000 @04:52AM (#1057422) Homepage Journal
    COM has been around in one form or another since the 1990s, COM was designed as a binary standard for calling methods.

    The first CORBA draft was published in 1991, so COM and CORBA seem to have been devloped at about the same time (I donno which came first, may have been COM, may have been CORBA).

    BTW, I'm not sure how relevant your windows is younger than unix statement is, well obviously...VMS is older than Unix, and NT is based on VMS :P.

    VMS is sure as hell not older then Unix. VMS came out on the VAX, and not any prior CPU. The VAX was a late-70's CPU (October 1978 I think). If you look at DMR's Historical Perceptions about the VAX architecture [bell-labs.com] you will see some dates (and other intreresting VAX info). If you poke around the rest of his pages you'll see some dates for Unix that are much older. Like by almost ten years.

    Unix is generally accepted to have been invented in 1969 (even with a 1970 begining of time value). I find this number easy to remember because I also was "invented" in 1969. That does make it a bit hard for me to remember the VAX rollout, but I figure DMR'll tell it stright.

    CORBA is generally an out of process technology. It was developed to allow objects to be called remotely, and sortta, transparently.

    You are right when you say CORBA is generally used for cross-process RPCs. Wrong when you tar it with the "sortta transparent" brush. If you either ignore the string issue (CORBA strings are not plain char*'s in C, and not C++ string objects in C++), or in C++ make a conversion operator from string (or char*) the calls are transparent. At least if you are willing to make sync RPC calls.

    You can use it as a all-in-one-process calling convention, but it's generally not needed.

  • IIRC the nightly builds are optimised. However, there is a lot of code which has debug code in it which can't simply be compiled out. What you're thinking of are debug symbols.

    However, now that Mozilla is largely feature complete, the folks working in it are now going to turn their attention to optimising and removing the debug code. Expect Netscape 6 PR2 to be usable, but not particually fast, but PR3 (If there is a PR3) is likely to be quite a nippy little thing.

  • Nice. (Score:4)

    by m3000 ( 46427 ) on Monday May 22, 2000 @01:55AM (#1057427)
    Very nice. Definity an improvement of M15. It's still not all that fast though; and there's still a couple of noticable bugs in it. At least the stupid bookmark bug ( 11586 [mozilla.org] ) was fixed.

    One pretty major problem though, at least for me, is a stupid dialog box coming up evertyime I hit a page that I've blocked. I have certain domain's blocked (like ad.doubleclick.net, a dforce.imgis.com, etc) in /etc/hosts so that way I odn't have to view the damn ads. But now everytime I come to a page with them on their, I get a dialog box saying "The connection was refused when trying to contact [insert blocked domain here]". It's really annoying, and it's the first time it's ever happened, since with IE5, N4.7, and M15, it never had any dialog box complaining about not being able to contact that particular server. Basically I'm asking if there is any way to turn this thing off.
  • <HTML>
    <HEAD>
    <TITLE>
    I've been karma-whoring on the slashdot, all the livelong day.
    </TITLE>
    <STYLE type="text/css">
    P {border-style: dotted ; border-color: red}
    </STYLE>
    </HEAD>
    <BODY>
    <P>This proves I am a fundamentally better person than you in every way. I hope parasites eat your colon and you die soon. Perhaps they'll look like the little red dots that are around this little sentiment. Unless you use IE, in which case you're going to be eaten alive by red tapeworms which will be shitting red string until you die.</P>
    </BODY>
    </HTML>

  • kword and konquer existed on windows 5 years ago?

    seriously, com is just a take off on corba - and corba's been around for quite a bit longer. and to the best of my knowledge corba is what kde uses.

    and you're right - both kde and gnome are younger then ole/activex. by about five years. of course windows is younger then unix - by about 20 years.
  • I saw a good discussion of portabilitiy concerns and one lept out at me. Most operating systems hand you back the least recently used block of memory when you ask for more so that if you have dangling pointers you are likely to not be using them any more. W2K deliberately hands back the most recently used one which means that if you made a mistake, you find out about it immediately.

    This shows that someone at the OS division is serious about long-term stability. Forcing people to catch errors right away is a good quality control step. But in the meantime it means that a lot of things die on W2K, and in many of those cases the error really matters.

    OTOH W2K changed a lot of other things, big chunks of it are a piece of cack, and all that. So this could just be yet another piece of W2K stupidity. But they should not conclude that until they check that they are not responsible...

    Cheers,
    Ben

    PS I think it would be nice if there was a version of Linux that provided a stress-test for errors that should be handled. Constantly giving EAGAIN exceptions. handing back recently used memory, etc.

  • Re:Too little, too late. (Score:3)

    by luckykaa ( 134517 ) on Sunday May 21, 2000 @11:53PM (#1057437)
    I mean, what can Mozilla do that IE doesn't do already?

    Offer sufficient competition to MS to ensure that they bother to keep improving IE.
  • I was using the previous build of Mozilla, and while it renders pages and scrolls much faster than Netscape, the program is SUCH a beast with the way it hogs resources. If I choose to open a new browser window, it takes about 5 seconds in Netscape on my machine, but Mozilla takes around 2 minutes, and to quit it takes 3-4 minutes to finish smashing the hard drive around. Shame, it LOOKS really nice, but it's tragically slow on lower end machines, rendering it almost unusable.

    I hope they tighten the code up some so it may be usable on low end machines as it has a FANTASTIC amount of promise. The programmers kick ass!

  • User Profiles (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 22, 2000 @12:02AM (#1057444)
    I *still* don't understand the user profile support in the Linux version - surely linux doesn't need it, since linux is a true multiuser system anyway?

    As far as I can tell, the user profile stuff is redundant and confusing - allowing Alice to have Alice, Bob and Chris users configured in her ~alice/.mozilla/ directory, as well as having separate ~bob/.mozilla/ and ~chris/.mozlla/ users on the system...

    I mean, why not just make the preferences user-specific ?
  • People, stop calling people who merely have a different opinion from yours trolls.

    We weren't doing that. We were calling someone who was posting a "different opinion" embedded in falmes and flamebait a troll, and rightfully so.

  • Using the Win32 version of M16 found at the ftp site on the box at work, and the PNG alpha test site found here [w3.org], I got these results [emulationzone.org]. Not quite what I had hoped for. I will test both the Win32 and Linux builds on my personal box when I get home today.
    _______
    Scott Jones
    Newscast Director / ABC19 WKPT
    Commodore 64 Democoder
  • Awesome! I have to admit, the last time I checked out Mozilla's progress was the Netscape6 preview that came out. I've used it on and off, but still found it a bit clunky to be my full-time daily browser (I'm stuck with NT at work for now, yeesh).

    I played around with sullivan skin and that was pretty encouraging, yet it still seemed to have a way to go yet. (yes, I understand this is pre-release software... not complaining, just making observations).

    But this is impressive. The rendering is damn fast and almost all of the features I want to use on a daily basis seem to be implemented and fairly well polished at this point. The sidebar really caught me by surprise. I have a customized 'my yahoo!' start page with headlines, stocks and tv listings set up - and mozilla cleanly imported all my preferences into the sidebar without my even knowing! Hell, now I almost don't even need the startpage, just put a link to the webmail in ther personal toolbar and I'd have everything I use from yahoo without ever loading the page.

    I'm impressed. Mozilla is shaping up extremely well, IMO! (hell, even the proxy username and password get sved correctly between sessions now! Woohoo, byebye Internet Exploder!)
  • Possibly - will check that...

    And remove all those Britney Spears tracks before send in the report ;-)

    a 2.5 meg web page..... lovely...

  • Re:PNG rendered correctly? (Score:4)

    by Emil Brink ( 69213 ) on Monday May 22, 2000 @12:08AM (#1057466) Homepage
    Ah, a good trick. Once one knows that, right-clicking and reading the image name in the menu is even easier. Thanks! ;^) Oh, just to clear up the reasons for my confusion: I'm Swedish, and in Sweden, the check mark is often used to mean "error, wrong" and similar negative things. Also, the color red has a negative feeling attached to it. So, the icon of a red check mark is easy to parse as something negative, whereas I guess for most Americans, to whom the check mark is positive (right?), things get easier. Looking at the W3's page, trying to interpret these icons, I invariably get confused and give up. ;^)
  • First, I have no idae whatsoever what got you started on this little rant, seeing as in this cae, and most others, if something is "up", it is fully intended to be "grabbed".

    Timothy assumes that since M16 is available, it must be ok to download it and do whatever you want with it.

    And he's prefectly correct to assume so because of the nature of the Mozilla project, which he and everyone here knows about.

    Everyone and their brother assumes that since mp3's are up on Napster, they're available for everyone as a God-given right, and anyone who tries to take that away is a filthy communist, etc. If somebody runs a w4r3z site, it's completely legit to download software from it (it was posted, right, so it must be ok!),

    That's idiotic. No-one in their right mind, and hardly anyone here on /. really thinks that way. Heck, I how stupid would one have to be to associate "communism" with an attempt to protect a copyright, given that that's the exact opposite of communistic ideals?

  • M16 is a complete delight.. FOR ME TO POOP ON! (Score:5)

    by Jikes ( 123986 ) on Monday May 22, 2000 @12:10AM (#1057472)
    For real, M16 and all the nightlies are becoming ridiculously good...

    Experiences with Win32/x86/133/40/unloaded:

    Fast on a 133/40 box... no shit... I spent an hour or two testing my CSS pages and it didn't crash once... The flakiness from generating new browser windows is almost gone...

    The sidebar is ACTUALLY cool.. check out cnn.com with NS6PR1 to see how cool questionless/seamless sidebar/install can be.. This ISN'T like those shitty IE4/5 toolbar conquests from noname companies... It just slips in, giving actually cool information and shit...

    The UI has calmed down lots... it is clean, rather functional, and what's best, can be COMPLETELY OVERHAULED to be faster/better/simpler/more-complex, ANYTHING...

    Mozilla isn't just a lets-clone-netscape thing anymore, it's a big collection of XPCOMponents that you can use to create apps... Mozilla is just one of them..

    The default mozilla/netscape skin is still pretty damn slow but managable on my win32/x86/100/40 you will see mozilla FLY when the lighter-weight skins are made... I have used them and they just feel so much lighter...

    Experiences with linux 2.2/x86/90mhz/32MB

    this machine is used for like three different services and at the time had 6 people using it, plus three people using X apps all over the network...

    It was SLOW. FUCKING SLOW.

    It took forever to unpack.. It took forever to load.. it took FOREVER for anything to happen...

    Then i realized it was running almost entirely in swap, and still hadn't crashed.. that was cool..

    The machine was RIDICULOUSLY burded at the time, so i can forgive it...

    Experiences on linux 2.2/x86/400/128

    Ridiculously fast. Ridiculously good. First time user startup in under 15 seconds... from there on out, starts up in 3 seconds... if mostly cached in memory starts up in under a second...

    Crashes are becoming significantly more difficult to find... it is now more pleasant to use than NS4 for me... less UI niggles... FASTER. Good.

    Goodbye netscape 4... FUCK IT.... Mozilla is going to be so radically more modifiable and fluid and extensible and NICE... oh wait, it already IS.

    Goodbye NS4, we hardly loved ye...

    P.S.: crystal-note-perfect CSS is an utter joy... my heart leaps...

    from coworker: "where are your graphics stored?" (referring to complex CSS1 box with lots of color-tricks on no-graphic page)

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