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Comment: Re:Bombing a city is ok ? (Score 1) 558

by quantaman (#47556697) Attached to: Satellite Images Show Russians Shelling Ukraine

Also, East Ukraine is full of ethnic Russians, shocking, I know.

I wasn't talking about ethnicity.

Bullshit, There was all of no hesitation on the part of Kyiv, regarding beginning an offensive in Donetsk and Luhansk. There was no hesitation involved in the shelling of civilian areas.

Except the months it took to actually do it.

Hyperbole, and it's their choice that the people of Donetsk and Luhansk made themselves. Don't you find it even slightly hypocritical that you can cry 'fascist' on one hand, but on the other, completely suppress the idea that a referendum took place?

I just held another referendum in my livingroom and the people of Donetsk and Luhansk just voted 93.425% that you're full of BS.

The think I find hilarious is that there's manufactured "proof" of Russian artillery fire, and satellite images showing troop buildups that don't exist, but no satellite imagery showing Russia moving BUK systems into Donetsk (because let's face it, neither Russia nor the separatists have anything to gain by downing passenger liners), it makes no sense for Kyiv to have moved SAM systems into Donetsk as the separatists have no air support. How'd the BUK system get there? Are we pretending that Kyiv has nothing to gain from making it look like Russia is downing airliners, they're desperate.

Yeah, the idea of Russian artillery fire is ridiculous.

And you're ignoring the obvious that the separatists have been downing planes for weeks.

Comment: Re:Bombing a city is ok ? (Score 1) 558

by quantaman (#47556609) Attached to: Satellite Images Show Russians Shelling Ukraine

You can see in numerous youtube videos that while some of the crowd helped the people out, others happily continued to throw incendiaries into the windows. Majority my arse.

Again, if you fight for an enemy nation in a war expect people are going to be angry at you.

Imagine that Yanukovich had done the same to the maidan thugs, what the current national guard does to civilists in Donetsk. For all his faults he was a saint in comparison.

Yanokovych employed snipers against massive peaceful protests, they occupied buildings but they also had hundreds of thousands of people. The pro-Russians have never had a tenth as many.

And you can't compare Yanoyovych's actions to a defence from an actual invasion.

Actual murderous criminals and fascists already own the majority of the country. What difference would it make?

a) There's nothing criminal or fascist about the current rulers.

b) You dodged the question. Tell me what they should have done in response to an invasion that you wouldn't consider "criminal" or "fascist".

Comment: Re:Bombing a city is ok ? (Score 1) 558

by quantaman (#47555355) Attached to: Satellite Images Show Russians Shelling Ukraine

Sheer primitive tribalism. The guys who have burned people alive in Odessa had a lot of fun doing it. And they were cheered at by several local politicians.

a) No one knows how the fire started, both sides were throwing molotov cocktails, and the majority of the crowd attempted to help evacuate the building.

b) Ally yourself with an enemy nation who has just invaded and annexed part of the country, take over buildings by force, then kill some peaceful protesters. You really expect to get a kind response?

Considering what happened further east where the separatists weren't kicked out I don't imagine many Odessans with the separatists were left there.

Well, shelling civilians and arming neo-faschist thugs surely counts for murderous. And as for repressive, they banned an oppositional party few days ago.

What's your alternate suggestion? They simply hand over half the country to actual murderous criminals and fascists?

Comment: Re:Bombing a city is ok ? (Score 1) 558

by quantaman (#47554483) Attached to: Satellite Images Show Russians Shelling Ukraine

I'm no Putin apologist; I was granted political asylum by the USA some decades ago when I fled communist oppression with my family.

That being said, you're oversimplifying a sadly complex situation which I myself don't completely understand. Don't expect a few minutes of reading to clear things up, either. Some things to keep in mind:

- A large ethnically-Russian population has existed in Ukraine for many years, many decades. Most "Russians" in Ukraine are not Russian commandos that snuck across the border in the past year, but instead are normal people who been living happily in Ukraine for their entire lives.

I was referring to Russian citizens, not ethnic Russians. My understanding is the ethnic Russians, though not well disposed towards Kiev, generally want nothing to do with the separatists.

- Most of these ethnically-Russian Ukrainians do identify closely with Russia and feel that their own interests would be best served by a Ukraine that seeks closer ties with Russia, not the EU.

True, this is a question that can be settled through democratic means.

- The local component to this 'seperatist movement' does indeed contain local criminals looking to cash in, but this should not excessively taint the legitimacy of the movement.

I don't think the movement has any legitimacy. Even in Donetsk they could only ever rally a couple thousand out of a city of over a million. The only reason there's a separatist movement is because of the thousands of armed fighters who entered the country.

- Cossacks are not Russians. They're Cossacks. Don't slander them by associating them with the Putin regime.

I was referring to the Russian paramilitary organizations, though was maybe too broad since they're only a portion.

That being said, fuck Putin and the crumbling Russia he rode in on.

I heartily agree.

Comment: Re:Bombing a city is ok ? (Score 1) 558

by quantaman (#47547139) Attached to: Satellite Images Show Russians Shelling Ukraine

1- Reports from these cities say the Ukrainian army is bohttp://news.slashdot.org/story/14/07/27/208226/satellite-images-show-russians-shelling-ukraine#mbing indiscriminately in various neighborhoods. These actions has been consistent have been going on for at least 2 months. They are not targeting the rebels, since for the most part, they cannot pinpoint their positions. So they blindly bomb whatever houses/infrastructures to inflict maximum destruction/casualties. They must have learned that from the Anglo-Saxons. Some of today's results: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

And what's your explanation for why the Ukrainians would want to inflict civilian casualties?

>2- Your assertion about separatists being Russians who illegally entered Ukraine is a blatant lie. Most defenders are locals who took up arms to defend their families and land against a murderous and repressive government. Plenty of proof of that.

Bullshit. There was nothing murderous or repressive about the government, they had just thrown out a corrupt president and the current president is a Russian speaker who used to belong to the same party!

Precise estimates on the fighter composition are tricky but there is very significant Russian and non-Ukrainian component.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/...
http://www.theatlantic.com/int...

Even the DPR leaders have been whining all along about locals not doing enough to fight.

3- Your comment about Russia is really sad and says a lot about the level of propaganda in the western media. Had Putin not been so moderate, your sorry ass might have been vaporized by now. But you're too brainwashed to realize what you're doing.

Sure Putin is a moderate, and the passengers of MH17 were slightly inconvenienced.

Comment: Re:Bombing a city is ok ? (Score 3, Informative) 558

by quantaman (#47546815) Attached to: Satellite Images Show Russians Shelling Ukraine

Funny that they illustrate this report with the actual shelling of the city of Gorlovka by the Ukrainian army. Yeah, actual civilians being bombed by their US sponsored government to the complete indifference of the western media. I guess those reporters can't be bothered to point that out.

Yeah, the Ukrainian military should instead write a kind letter asking the separatists to go back to Russia.

Wow, so you think it's alright to bomb civilians once they're been labeled 'separatists'. One can justify pretty much any atrocities with your thinking.

It's always amusing how the Putin apologists bend over to misinterpret sentences.

The civilians are not separatists, the separatists are Russians who illegally entered Ukraine, with weapons, and took control of several cities. The local component to this 'separatist movement' is largely comprised of local criminals looking to cash in.

The intention is quite obviously not to bomb civilians, but the armed Russians who are occupying the city. The Russians set up bases in residential areas and on top of apartment buildings precisely because they know the Ukrainians are reluctant to fire at their own citizens.

The civilian deaths that result from Ukrainian attempts to attack the separatists is tragic, but arguably less tragic than leaving the civilians of Donetsk and Luhansk to live under a fascist autocracy run by Russian cossasks and local criminals.

You might wonder that I used the word 'fascist' since the Russians are so fond of using it to describe the Ukrainians. I use it because in this case it is accurate, I can't think of a country today that could be better described as fascist than Putin's Russia. That you would defend such an enterprise then seek to blame the victims for the resulting human toll is disgusting beyond words.

Comment: Russian army or Russian rebels? (Score 2) 558

by quantaman (#47546547) Attached to: Satellite Images Show Russians Shelling Ukraine

The summary says "Russian forces" which is generally assumed to mean official troops, but I think it's far more likely to be Russian rebels firing on Ukraine from Russia.

Putin has no need to involve official Russian troops when there are more than enough "volunteers" willing to carry out the battle. Russia gives them a few big guns and they keep them safe on the Russian side of the border so the Ukrainians can't fight back. The bonus is that by keeping the Ukrainians away from the border they can keep it open and continue the flow of troops and arms from Russia.

Comment: Re:Bombing a city is ok ? (Score 1) 558

by quantaman (#47546483) Attached to: Satellite Images Show Russians Shelling Ukraine

Funny that they illustrate this report with the actual shelling of the city of Gorlovka by the Ukrainian army. Yeah, actual civilians being bombed by their US sponsored government to the complete indifference of the western media. I guess those reporters can't be bothered to point that out.

Yeah, the Ukrainian military should instead write a kind letter asking the separatists to go back to Russia.

Comment: Re:Weakest US President ever (Score 0) 558

by quantaman (#47546465) Attached to: Satellite Images Show Russians Shelling Ukraine

So what are they going to do about it? Give another speech about how Russia is acting against its own interest?

Gaza can send thousands of rockets targeting Iraeli citizens and they won't even say a word.
Iran can make nuclear weapons and they won't even say a word.
Russia can take over Crimea and they get bashed harshly with... a speech.
ISIS can take over Iraq and kill thousands and they won't say a word.
Any country depending on the US for support is lost and left to fend for themselves.

However, if you DARE mention the government should cut a dime of spending you will be labled a terrorist and the IRS, and DOJ will be used illegally to harrass you and oppress you. This administration is far harsher on peaceful critics of its policies than it is on genocide or mass killings of allies.

What a joke.

Multiple scathing criticisms but not a single suggestion of a specific action you'd do different.

Are you a republican congressman or senator?

Comment: Re:The UN (Score 5, Informative) 454

by quantaman (#47505649) Attached to: MIT's Ted Postol Presents More Evidence On Iron Dome Failures

story
20 rockets were found in a UN owned school in the Gaza strip. The UN is caliming they were not using the building and did not know the rockets were in the building. What happened to the rockets once the UN discovered they were hiding munitions for Hamas in a school? The UN did the only responsible thing possible and handed those rockets over to Hamas.

Interesting, lets read the link then:

So where did the rockets go? Well, according to Israel, they went right back to Hamas. As an official told The Times of Israel:

The rockets were passed on to the government authorities in Gaza, which is Hamas. In other words, UNRWA handed to Hamas rockets that could well be shot at Israel.”

Ok, that sounds damning, but lets read till the end for the buried lede:

On Monday afternoon, Chris Gunness, the spokesman for U.N.R.W.A., denied that the rockets went back to Hamas.

UNRWA did not give the rockets to Hamas. The rockets were taken away by bomb disposal experts that were answerable to the newly formed government of national consensus, which Hamas has left."

So the rockets went to people most likely hostile to Hamas. Now maybe the UN could have done better disposing of the bombs themselves, but a UN bomb disposal mission in Gaza sounds like something that could also go really wrong. Remember the role of the UN isn't to fight for Israel, in that case they're just trying to provide humanitarian aid.

Comment: Re:I don't see the problem. (Score 1) 667

by quantaman (#47498353) Attached to: Russian Government Edits Wikipedia On Flight MH17

One biased side is fighting edits from an even more biased side.

The first casualty of war is the truth. In this case both sides are trying to pummel truth's dead body into a hamburger.

There's not some mythic unattainable "truth" surrounded by complete lies.

Every statement is a mixture of truth and lies, the goal of decent people it to not only call out the lies in every statement, but to still recognize that an imperfect statement can still contain a great deal of truth.

Right now Russia is telling egregious lies. The proper action isn't to stand back and act like it's fine because everybody lies, it's to drag them out and discredit them so that they have a reason to start telling the truth.

And when someone else lies you should drag them out and discredit them, but to brush off misdeeds as something that's normal is how Russia became the joke it is today.

Comment: Re:Propaganda (Score 1) 667

by quantaman (#47498251) Attached to: Russian Government Edits Wikipedia On Flight MH17

a strategy of kremlin propagandists.
distribute lies about events ("oh, ukrainians shot down mh 17 ! they even shot down their own planes a few days before that. we claimed credit for that just for fun !"), then go "ooooh, but you know, i don't trust either side, they all are lying"

so far russia has been caught lying many times. all evidence points at russian special forces (and regular army, too) being responsible both for invasion in eastern ukraine, and for downing mh17 specifically.

No it doesn't.

The evidence points to Russian special forces and regular army being responsible for the annexation of Crimea.

In the war in Eastern Ukraine the evidence points to Russian paramilitary organizations operating with the backing of the Russian government and some level of direction. But there's no evidence of actual Russian soldiers in East Ukraine. To be honest they'd be dumb to send any. There's more than enough Cossacks and Chechen militias they can direct over unofficially. No point in sending over official soldiers who could be killed, identified, and drag Putin into an actual war he doesn't want.

Putin still bears full culpability for every death that's occurred, but he's keeping official Russian soldiers out of it.

Comment: Re:I don't see the problem. (Score 1) 667

by quantaman (#47498237) Attached to: Russian Government Edits Wikipedia On Flight MH17

Terrorists? I've seen them called both separatists and I think Militia. I haven't heard them called terrorists until now, and whilst I'm not fully educated on their movement, treatment of civilians in the area and other matters, I don't know if they should morally be classified as terrorists by the international community, that is unless they shot the airliner down on purpose or performed other heinous acts of terror.

Honestly I'm not entirely sure what to call them, but terrorists isn't it (though the Ukrainian government has called them that all along).

Generally I call them rebels or separatists, but that doesn't really apply. To be a rebel or a separatist it's implied that you're fighting your own government, but in this case many, if not most, are Russian citizens motivated by a combination of nationalism, adventurism, and wealth. Guerrillas maybe? What do you call a paramilitary organization that invades another country to try to steal some of its territory?

Comment: Re: The Heartland Institute (Score 1) 552

by quantaman (#47466635) Attached to: The Last Three Months Were the Hottest Quarter On Record

Every now and then I go down your "informed skeptic" rabbit holes to make sure I didn't miss anything in my personal conclusion that AGW is real and a problem, but every time the data YOU present always ends up refuting your point.

Don't worry, they all came away just as convinced and reassured as to the irrefutability of their conclusions.

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