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Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 1) 347

Indeed, and "If you will be perfect, go and sell that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow Me" was something that Jesus supposedly said. Does this also sound like the beginning of socialism to you? Is any statement opposing unbridled greed "the beginning of socialism" to you? Most people have a slightly less superficial understanding of socialism, so that might explain why they aren't as quick as you to label everything "socialism". The same applies to your Rousseau quote.

No it does not, it sounds like you are free to choose to sell your possessions and give them to the poor. Socialism doe not allow for a choice it's give up your wealth by force or threat of force. Rousseau's quote was saying that no person had a right to private property and that all property belongs to the collective. "the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.". I don't have a subscription to Modern Socialists but I'm pretty sure the means of production being controlled by the government is a pillar of socialism.

Gravity the concept as we understand it today, or gravity the force? One indeed did not exist before Newton's definition, while the other did.

Let me put it this way, if the understanding of gravity being inverse square to the distance was known before Newton officially defined gravity. Would that concept of gravity being inverse square to the distance not be considered an idea that lead to the Newtonian definition of gravity? That idea is in the Newtonian definition. Rousseau's idea that there is no private property is a socialists idea. Your idea that the land owners should give more to their workers less they revolt and take from the land owner is a socialists concept as well.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept all of the statistics you've provided. Are you suggesting that by merely foregoing cell phone ownership, avoiding modern transportation, and eschewing indoor plumbing, thereby returning to conditions comparable to those experienced by serfs, they'd only need to work a few minutes per week to support their newly-lowered standard of living?

If you owned the technology you could work significantly less. How much depends on how fast a person could plow with a tractor, seed with machinery, spraying with herbicide, insecticide and fertilizer, mowing/harvesting with a tractor, and transporting to sell. You would also need to account for costs to maintain your tractor, amortize your equipment over it's life, and consumables like seed, fertilizer, insecticides, herbicides, and diesel. I don't know where your coming up with minutes per week but you could definitely work much less.

The seasonal migrants all ready do work less only 1/4 of the the year. The year round workers don't own the technology so they don't see lions share of the benefit but yes if they choose to forgo modern technology they would not have to work as much to provide for them selves.

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 1) 347

Are you saying that "Rational or not, justifiable or not, inequitable distribution of wealth breeds unrest. That's a fact, and the wealthy among us would do well to keep that in mind." is not a socialists concept?

For the record, proto-socialist ideas started popping up in France distinctly after the revolution.

"Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, or death" was the slogan of the French revolution. Fraternity was a concept that people had a legal responsibility to ensure that everyone gets their fair share. That sounds like the beginning of socialism to me.

Here is a quote from Jean-Jacques Rousseau in 1754, way before the French revolution.
"The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naÃve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody."

So I guess it's safe to say that bounding ideas or concepts by the date is pretty foolish. Did gravity not exists before Newton defined it?

Did you read below that I will repeat it since you missed it, if you are saying they had it equally as good you need to find something that made up for a serf's lack of technology, like cell phones, clean drinking water, indoor plumbing, living quarters without livestock, cars, laundry facilities,... What area did the serfs have it better then migrant workers to make up for all those things I listed.

First, I'll reiterate my objection that those aren't things that migrant workers have, generally speaking. Second, I'll reiterate the response I offered earlier: leisure time and living space

80% of migrant workers have cell phones
42% drive a car to work, 8% walk, 35% ride with others, 8% take a bus, 7% use Raitero (shuttle).
95% had water for washing, 80% drinking water and cups, 93% had a toilet

Living space? serfs had live stock living in their "houses". I don't know if you know this but goats and sheep crap all the time. I don't know about you but I would rather live in a house cramped with people then with animals, feces, and urine.

Now for your claim of leisure time. From the study I cited the average hours worked per week was 43 hours. It's safe to say that is the average for a year round worker, serfs worked more then that. Now to the seasonal migrant. Seasonal migrant workers are not working 3/4 of the year, they would have to work 23 hours a day every day to work the same hours as someone who works 40 hours a week year round.

The disclaimer I've added to the end of my last three posts (as well as this one) has been rather prophetic, don't you think? Perhaps you're interested in breaking the 76-post-long-thread record I set with bingoUV? That would be even more impressive with this disclaimer in place the whole time. I totally think you should go for it.

You can stop responding any time you like, yet you still continue to respond.

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 1) 347

by jimbolauski (#47997331) Attached to: FCC Chairman: Americans Shouldn't Subsidize Internet Service Under 10Mbps

You implied as much when you referred to my comment about the French revolution as a "socialist rant". The French revolution predates socialism, so it's not really reasonable to say that it has anything to do with socialism or that discussing the causes of the revolution is inherently socialist.

"Rational or not, justifiable or not, inequitable distribution of wealth breeds unrest. That's a fact, and the wealthy among us would do well to keep that in mind." Is it possible to have socialists ideas before the term socialism was coined? It doesn't matter what you were referencing, the idea you were conveying is a socialist one.

I was saying that a serf in the middle ages had it more or less equally good as modern migrant workers.

Do you see this? Do you see what I'm dealing with here?! You provide counterexamples to your own claims! I will add this technique to my trolling repertoire, as the effect it had on me can only be described as profound bewilderment. It's madness, I tell you. Madness!

Did you read below that I will repeat it since you missed it, if you are saying they had it equally as good you need to find something that made up for a serf's lack of technology, like cell phones, clean drinking water, indoor plumbing, living quarters without livestock, cars, laundry facilities,... What area did the serfs have it better then migrant workers to make up for all those things I listed.

In any case, I don't mind repeating myself. The person risking their capital should forfeit [some of] the benefits in order to preserve social order, to prevent civil unrest, and to avoid the fate that befell the aristocracy of France during the French revolution.

If they are only given enough not to riot then they are way over compensated. People are breaking the law just for the opportunity to go work as a migrant worker, that is a long way away from a revolt.

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 1) 347

by jimbolauski (#47993199) Attached to: FCC Chairman: Americans Shouldn't Subsidize Internet Service Under 10Mbps

Actually, I've offered plenty of evidence against "the point"

What evidence have you provided, you have not given a single source for your claims. The only source you provided was your racist "packed like Mexicans ones".

Indeed, I misspoke. If this wasn't evident to you from context, here are some links to earlier posts in this thread where I didn't misspeak. The argument that you set forth (that I'm objecting to) is "there are fewer people farming then there was 600 years ago, this means fewer people are doing the farming for a larger population". This argument is invalid (despite both the antecedent and consequent being true), since "fewer people are doing the farming for a larger population" does not logically follow from the fact that "there are fewer people farming then [sic] there was [sic] 600 years ago". For example, the larger population could simply be eating less per person. The larger population could be turning to hunting or gathering. I never argued against the individual statements you made. I merely pointed out that the logic argument you form from them is not sound. Perhaps if you're not in the habit of engaging in formal rational discourse, this distinction may be lost on you. Feel free to write it off as me being pedantic, as you already seem to have done.

Here is what I said, "There are fewer people farming then there was 600 years ago, this means fewer people are doing the farming for a larger population". This statement was never about few farmers correlating to a larger population. I made the assumption that you would be able to grasp that there has been a population increase and that the statement was not about those two items but about the efficiency in production that made it possible. I did not think you were so simple that I had to spell every thing out so rigorously.

The French revolution actually predates the advent of socialism by a few decades, but don't let reality stop you from throwing around the "socialist" label as though it were a pejorative.

And when did I say Socialism predated the French Revolution. Here is a quote from your comrade Trotsky "The party that leans upon the workers but serves the bourgeoisie, in the period of the greatest sharpening of the class struggle, cannot but sense the smells wafted from the waiting grave." That is very similar to your quote, and I don't think you are even thick enough to say Trotsky was not a socialist revolutionary.

. Based on what Google's dictionary tells me, racism is "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races"

So the stereotype that Mexicans live in cramped quarters is not a negative attribute. That negative attribute applied to all Mexicans does not make them inferior? A racial stereotype with negative or positive connotations is racists.

I never suggested that a serfs [sic] life was better then [sic] a migrant workers [sic].

You certainly debated the fact that serfs had it better. Your quote.

Did serfs live in houses with 30+ others? Migrant workers do. Did serfs' diets consist of beans, rice, and water? Migrant workers' do. Regarding the hours-per-week claims, they seem totally disconnected from the realities I've seen. I've never seen a migrant worker that worked nice short days or took weekends off, but without reliable statistics, we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Another quote

I was saying that a serf in the middle ages had it more or less equally good as modern migrant workers.

To make up for all the modern amenities a migrant worker has a serf would have to have it much better they did not. At least now faced with overwhelming evidence and common sense you concede this point even if it's just you claiming not to have made it.

My argument was merely that gains in efficiency of production would have resulted by now in a society where labor participation is not required for the basic needs of the human population to be met, if they weren't instead being pocketed by the wealthy. That you're now stuck on repeating a phrase that's at most tangential to my argument only goes to show that you're more interested in "winning" than in anything I have to say.

I have never denied that nor debated that the people that can not afford to buy the technology do not see most of the benefits of using that technology. The people that pay for the technology are the ones that see the majority of the benefits from that technology. I have asked you multiple times this same simple question which you can't seem to answer. Why should the person risking their capital forfeit the benefits?
Your only answer was to avoid socialists revolution. Migrant workers have seen benefits from technology, instead of working long hours plowing, seeding, weeding, and harvesting, they only work long hours harvesting, a seasonal job, a vast majority of their income is generated in 1/4 of the year. Even if you assume they worked 80 hours a week during that quarter of a year that's still only 20 hours a week averaged per year. Unless you think that migrant workers work 160 hours a week during the season they will be working less then 40 hours a week over the course of a year.

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 1) 347

by jimbolauski (#47985617) Attached to: FCC Chairman: Americans Shouldn't Subsidize Internet Service Under 10Mbps

Based on your claims alone. You never cited a reference for your 60-80 hours claim. Also, I didn't know there were reliable labor statistics that went that far back. My understanding is that the amount of leisure time afforded the average person has been steadily decreasing since the hunter-gatherer era. Since neither of us have cited any references to support our positions, I don't see why I should simply assume your claim has more validity than my own.

I never cited a reference for that claim because you were the one that made it you said it's quite possible that some work a few weeks at 80+ hours. Again you are ignoring the point because of minute details that don't change the facts. The maximum hours a serf or migrant could work is sun up to sun down, from the survey we know that migrants do not work those hours all the time, for every 80 hour week there are 3 30 hour weeks. Serfs worked sun up to sun down except Sundays and religious holidays, half tending "their" land and the other half working the landowners land.

We do have fewer farmers. We do have a larger population. We have had huge increases in efficiency. However, these are all orthogonal claims, and it is not true that one follows from the other(s), which is what your original claim stated (intentionally or not).

Please tell me how having fewer producers and a larger population would not indicate an increase in efficiency?
Either way, neither of these three facts contradicts my claim that workers have not seen the full benefit of these huge increases in efficiency because their productive output must have increased for them to have maintained a constant quality of life.

I never disputed that workers have not seen the full benefits of technology. I even told you why. The workers don't own the technology so they are not going to see the full benefits of it. You even went into a socialists revolutionary rant "That's my point. Rational or not, justifiable or not, inequitable distribution of wealth breeds unrest. That's a fact, and the wealthy among us would do well to keep that in mind".

It wasn't racist, and it wasn't a joke. It might have been racist if I had somehow suggested that sparse living arrangements are superior to dense ones, or that Mexican immigrants are inferior to others due to their choice in housing accommodations.

"Packed like Mexicans" is racists stereotype, being an immigrant that lived in cramped quarters does not make that statement any less racists.
Again you refuse to say how a serfs life was better then a migrant workers, other then "they are packed like Mexicans".

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 1) 347

by jimbolauski (#47983063) Attached to: FCC Chairman: Americans Shouldn't Subsidize Internet Service Under 10Mbps
I wouldn't say that, you are just so focused on contradicting irrelevant details, I would assume it's because you can't contradict the actual point. For instance the exact number of hours a migrant works when a serf works considerably more then your highest estimate. Or being pedantic about the wording of my claim that we have fewer farmers and a larger population which could only happen with huge increases in efficiency, none of which you disputed.

The bottom line is no reasonable person would believe for one second serfs had it better then migrant workers. You have not provided a single source except a racist joke to back any of your outlandish claims.

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 1) 347

When were workers surveyed about how many hours they worked "in the previous week", February or September? Are these numbers year-round averages? If so, then these numbers don't tell us much without also providing information about variance or standard deviation. It's still possible (and in my eyes, likely) that they work 80+ hours per week in-season and struggle to make ends meet in the off season.

I know you are trying real hard to negate the study because it disproves all of your unsubstantiated claims, but use some critical thinking. If they only surveyed during off season then there would not be any seasonal workers to survey. Yes the number could be diluted but that really doesn't make a difference as a surf worked sun up to sun down Monday through Saturday every week. In the summer they are working over 80 hours a week and in the winter over 50.

Did serfs live in houses with 30+ others? Migrant workers do.

There is no evidence to indicate that statement is remotely correct, your racists joke doesn't count as a source.

No, I'm saying something very specific: exactly what I wrote. To clarify, I'm saying that just because there are fewer people farming today than there were 600 years ago, does not necessarily imply that they are doing the farming for a larger population (which they are). While both statements are true, it is not correct to say that one logically follows from the other, which is what you were originally claiming (and I was disagreeing with). My apologies for being precise with my language.

When I wrote that statement I just assumed that you would be able to make the leap that the population had grown since the middle ages I should have known better. One will follow the other when there are technological advances which was the point I was making that you still don't grasp.

You seemed to be assuming that it takes more work to fix broken technology than it does to simply maintain the technology so that it doesn't break

I have never made that claim, you just have reading comprehension issues. I even clarified my point but you still are stuck on your wrong interpretation. Maintaining mechanical equipment typically involves replacing broken or warn parts, even changing the oil requires replacing the oil and oil filters. I'm guessing you don't have hands on experience fixing mechanical equipment. You will need to produce more then just enough to meet your basic needs to pay for these things, otherwise you will be doing everything manually like they did in the middle ages.

Regarding this point, I suspect we're just talking past each other. Could you please speak more clearly (i.e. when talking about "working harder", a relative claim, be explicit about what they're working harder than; when talking about "bare minimum", be explicit about what criteria must still be met)?

Your claim all along is that you should be able to be lazy and use technology to meet your basic needs (food, clothing, shelter). You will need to produce extra beyond your basic needs (food, clothing, shelter) for things like gas, oil, replacement parts, tools to service your equipment, and/or mechanic fees since you are not mechanically inclined. If that's all you want it's possible to live like that, some people do. You won't have money for modern amenities like medicine, entertainment (tv, radio, cell phones, computers), or simple comforts like hot water, electricity, ... You will live like it's 600 years ago

If those other jobs replaced farming jobs, there would have been no gain in productivity (because the productive output of those other jobs is an input to modern farming). Since there was in fact a gain in productivity (or at least that's what economists have been consistently claiming for decades, if not centuries), we know that those jobs did not replace farming jobs. If you can't follow a proof that short, you may want to study this reference.

I'll really dumb it down for you, people used to have to farm to survive, now because of technology they can do a million other things to survive. Those people replaced farming jobs with other jobs that are not related to farming jobs in any way. This is possible because technology has allowed our society to expand beyond a simple agricultural society, things like entertainment and comfort have value because people have free time. Your proof by contradiction is invalid as you are comparing unrelated sets. You are so focused on trying to disprove my claim that you are missing the point all together.

. Rational or not, justifiable or not, inequitable distribution of wealth breeds unrest. That's a fact, and the wealthy among us would do well to keep that in mind.

That's what police are for, that's why most wealthy people support the 2nd amendment, so they can protect themselves and their property. If as you claimed they are too poor to own a cell phone they certainly can't afford guns and ammo.

Please tell me how you can possible think migrant workers today that have cell phones, tv, cars, a better diet, indoor plumbing, better medicine, better clothes, better boots, better shelter, better working hours,... are worse off then a serf.

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 1) 347

Did serfs live in houses with 30+ others? Migrant workers do. Did serfs' diets consist of beans, rice, and water? Migrant workers' do. Regarding the hours-per-week claims, they seem totally disconnected from the realities I've seen. I've never seen a migrant worker that worked nice short days or took weekends off, but without reliable statistics, we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

You might want to get your facts straight. This was from 2002-2003 so the number may not be a perfect illustration of today but it's fairly obvious that migrant workers don't have it as bad as serfs by a large margine
Hours and pay
"In 2001-2002, the average was 42 hours, compared to 38 in 1993-1994. In 2001-2002, approximately one quarter each worked less than 35 hours, between 35 and 40, 41 and 49, and 50 hours or more."
Housing
Only 5% were in a dormitory, barracks, or multi-family structure.
80% live off farm.

That they are doing the farming for a larger population does not follow from the fact that there are fewer people farming than there were 600 years ago. Non sequitur.

So are you disagreeing that there are fewer farmers or that the population has not grown in 600 years. The were 40 million farmers in Europe in the middle ages with a population of 50 million. Today there are 13 million farmers and a population of 740 million.

I specifically stated that if these jobs had an equal requirement for labor as the jobs they replaced, the logical conclusion would be that there was no net gain in productivity. Since there was in fact dramatic gains in productivity, the claim that these new jobs simply replaced the old jobs is demonstrated false. This is what's called a proof by contradiction.

People no longer have to farm for a living they do one of a million other things because of technology. If technology was not there they would have to farm. I'd like to see your proof that those other jobs did not replace farming jobs, you are missing a few rungs in your logic chain.

Specifically, do you have any evidence that they would have to work less hard to fix broken technology if they do more than "just enough to get by"?

They would have to work harder to fix broken technology. They would need to continue their current effort PLUS fix the technology. I don't know where you are getting this. If you use technology to do the bare minimum you will run into an issue when it breaks. You won't have any money to get replacement parts and fix it yourself or pay someone to fix it. You will need to do more then just meet your current needs.

To avoid death at the hands of an angry mob. I can't believe you've never heard of the French revolution. Amazing.

This I do agree with, that the French Revolution was just a 20 year riot. Your point pretty well illustrates that migrant workers have it better, they are not rioting and killing innocent people so they must be receiving better treatment then farmers 200 years ago. Over half of the migrant workers in the US are committing a crime just to work there.

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 1) 347

I never said otherwise. I was saying that a serf in the middle ages had it more or less equally good as modern migrant workers.

Do migrant workers live in drafty one room houses with leaky roofs no windows and dirt floors? Serfs did. Do migrant workers diet consist of onion, potatoes and bread? Serfs did. Migrant workers work 40-50 hours a weeks while serfs worked 60-80 hours a week.

The kind that lack a legal right to work, work for illegally low wages

Any wages a person with no legal right to work makes are illegal wages. They choose to enter the country illegally and work illegally why should anyone be shocked if they are paid illegally.

Now you need a bunch of machines for most of it and a bunch of Mexicans for a small remainder. If it took as many people to design/build/maintain the machines as it did to do the work manually, there would not have been any gains in productivity, which is contradicted by reality. So we can agree that we need fewer people to do the same work, and yet somehow we still need everyone working full time? I call bullshit.

There are many assumptions you make that lead to this wrong conclusion, or maybe it's just your way of convincing yourself it's ok to be lazy.
-There are fewer people farming then there was 600 years ago, this means fewer people are doing the farming for a larger population
-You seem to think society has not gotten any more complex, there is not just a carpenter, blacksmith, and farmer any more. All the people that would be farming are doing something else, thousands of job fields that have to serve the whole population.
-Now if people use technology to do just enough to get by they are setting themselves up for failure, when their technology breaks they will have to work harder to fix it or pay to have it fixed and thus will now have to work harder to maintain their same lifestyle.

Gains in efficiency are disproportionately pocketed by the wealthy

Gains in efficiency are pocked by the by the people paying for the technology, if migrant workers are not paying for the technology then they won't see as much of the benefit. Why should the person risking their capital forfeit the benefits?

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 1) 347

Are you familiar at all with serfdom? A serf in the middle ages did not have it better then modern migrant workers.

Could you be specific about what migrant workers you are talking about. I doubt there is any place in this world where migrant workers are taking advantage technology to improve their efficiency and do not have modern amenities like cell phones.

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 1) 347

by jimbolauski (#47939367) Attached to: FCC Chairman: Americans Shouldn't Subsidize Internet Service Under 10Mbps

So you're saying one can have a place to live, clothes to wear, and food to eat by performing a tiny fraction of the manual labor expected of the average worker 600 years ago?

I am absolutely not saying that, your work ethic is not the only thing that you need to work on.

If you want to work hard enough to match the output of 600 years ago you will end up living like it's 600 years ago.

Since your reading comprehension is a little low I'll spell it out for you. I'm saying that a migrant worker that gets the same amount of produce as a person 600 years ago would end up living in conditions like it was 600 years ago. Migrant workers have cell phones, cars, indoor plumbing, heating,... none of which were around 600 years ago so I'm lost on your point. Does having advance technology to someone 600 years ago only count if it's less then a year old. Thanks to technology there are higher yields meaning the produce density is higher so they can collect it faster with the same input as people 600 years ago. The trucks that they put their produce in allow them to spend more time collecting produce and less pulling horse carts out of the mud or trudging through a field to drop off your filled crate.

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 2) 347

by jimbolauski (#47938853) Attached to: FCC Chairman: Americans Shouldn't Subsidize Internet Service Under 10Mbps
If you want to work hard enough to match the output of 600 years ago you will end up living like it's 600 years ago. Technology has made it so working as hard produces significantly greater output. You can choose to keep up or get left behind but society should not reward you for your lack of work ethic.

Comment: Re: I never thought I'd say this... (Score 3, Informative) 347

by jimbolauski (#47937061) Attached to: FCC Chairman: Americans Shouldn't Subsidize Internet Service Under 10Mbps
The problem is the people that "don't feel like busting ass" are not incentivized to contribute to society. They get free food, shelter, clothes, cell phones, medical services,... and are not required to contribute at all. When you reward lazy behavior more people are lazy, you then get to a point where the people footing the bill refuse to work hard because their hard work just goes to the lazy people.

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