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thought provoking article on cultural demographics....

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  • Aaaargh! I'm turning into a extreme-right adherend! ;-)

    But there is nothing we can do about it. I cannot afford children for the moment, and even then a maximum of 2 it will be. In the long run the Muslims will win. Such is life.

    • Oh, we COULD do something about it alright, but the western nations normally refuse to descend to that level of barbarity.
      At least for now.
      • Mark my words: We'll need the Americans again. We have no militaries worth speaking of.
        • The only way militaries will help is if they are used RIGHT NOW. 50 or 100 years from now it will be entirely too late to use militaries to deal with the discrepencies in population growth rates. And like I said, right now the west is unwilling to do what it would take to prevent this fate from befalling us. So basically, we're doomed.
          • The problem is that genocide has gotten a bit of a stigma 60 years ago. Racism has gotten a similar stigma, even tough it stayed around a bit longer. The problem is political correctness. One cannot call an "asshole" and "asshole" anymore because it is a "socially less friendly person" instead.

            Good luck selling genocide and racism to people these days... You'll be banned off-air as soon as you open your mouth. No, it's not censorship, it is "political correctness".

            Yes, we are doomed... At least y

  • preferably lots of condom fearing catholics, wonder where where we can find any of those around these parts?
    • If you haven't noticed, even the condom-fearing Catholics long ago discovered Natural Family Planning- they're aging too (I made this remark at the last Men's Breakfast at my parish- that at 34, I was the youngest guy there, and still would be past my 35th birthday in a couple of weeks). Catholics who are the same age as many of the Islamic suicide bombers- are in the midst of their questioning years and don't even want to go to Sunday Mass let alone fight for their heritage.
  • So, how many armoured battalions has "Islam" got? How many heavy industries to churn out weapons of war? Are these scary youths supposed to mass together and attack en horde in some sort of a latter day People's Crusade? They may have AK-47s, but you can't win an offensive war with those against a foe that has tanks, destroyers, choppers, and machine gun emplacements. You can only charge in bravely and die.

    Egypt's not attacking anyone as long as the Aswan dam exists upstream of Cairo. Iran can't attack Russ
    • by elmegil (12001) *
      I'm not sure we read the same article Leo. Let me summarize radically and see if you understand why military is irrelevant to his argument (regardless of whether his argument is correct).

      Demographically, the Muslim world is expanding and has been for some time. Demographically, the European/Western world is shrinking, and has been for some time. At some point, there will be an overwhelming enough number of Muslims versus the older groups in Europe/the West that "the people" will be able and willing to vo

      • by leoPetr (926753)
        Alright, consider France:
        - 62% Roman Catholic
        - 26% no religion
        - 6% Muslim
        - 2% Protestant
        - 2% Other
        - 1% Jewish

        Let's imagine that the non-Muslim population halves:
        - 58% Roman Catholic
        - 25% no religion
        - 11% Muslim
        - 2% Protestant
        - 2% Other
        - 1% Jewish

        And then halves again:
        - 52% Roman Catholic
        - 23% no religion
        - 20% Muslim
        - 2% Protestant
        - 2% Other
        - 1% Jewish

        And then halves for a third time:
        - 43% Roman Catholic
        - 19% no religion
        - 33% Muslim

        That's three generations down the line, Muslims still can't vote themselves r
        • by elmegil (12001) *
          You are completely ignoring the effect of immigration.

          Honestly Leo, you started out arguing against a point the article wasn't even making, I'm not sure how much credibility that leaves you here.

          Add in the fact that I'd swear I've seen you making similar arguments about the demographics of fundamentalist Christians versus atheist intellectuals, and I really am confused at your knee jerk rejection.

          I think he gets some key points wrong (personally, I think cultural assimilation is a better defense than he doe

          • My point about this article - and a good, sobering article it is - was going to be yours here - I think cultural assimilation is a better defense than he does

            I was musing about what happens when a Muslim hard-line comes to the Socialistic countries of Europe. It won't happen in a generation, and by that time, the "youth" will be used to their comforts. "I do not like that comfortable chair!" says the grandfather. "But it sure is comfortable..." says the grandson.
            • I think that cultural assimilation for hard line Islamics as a strategy is a good idea- but a really bad strategy as it will never work until somebody is able to show them that democracy creates *better* justice than Shiarah.
              • by elmegil (12001) *
                We no more need assimilation of "hard line Islamics" than we need to require assimilation of Unabomber types. It's the not so hard line "Islamics" that provide a petri dish for the hard liners that need to be assimilated; the more assimilated they are, the harder it will be for the hard liners to blend in.
                • The real problem is- Justice and freedom seem to be mutually exclusive from some points of view. The more freedom we have, the less justice is possible.
                  • by elmegil (12001) *
                    I'm curious what points of view they don't conflict in? Seriously, I think the fact that so many get away with so much that is clearly unethical *at the least* in our society in the USA does underscore the problem trying to find a balance.
                    • I'm curious what points of view they don't conflict in?

                      I don't have time to look up the reference right now- but St. Paul had a very nice essay on this in the New Testament. Justice doesn't conflict with freedom when you choose to use your freedom to create justice was the basic concept. Being free to do the right thing was very important in his mind- and that's what Christ bought him.

                      Seriously, I think the fact that so many get away with so much that is clearly unethical *at the least* in our society
          • You are completely ignoring the effect of immigration.

            Actually, he isn't. France's non-Muslim population won't be halving that fast -- France in particular actually has a fairly good birthrate (relatively speaking), and Europe in general is becoming increasingly allergic to immigration -- even the new EU members can't immigrate freely within the EU like the old ones can, and if Turkey ever does become a member, it will only happen with severe restrictions on their freedom of movement.

            What the article a

          • by leoPetr (926753)
            Okay, I probably was a bit kneejerk and overly dismissive. I'll try to explain my reasoning. The article asserts that the future belongs to Islam. It then mentions 9/11, which is an external rather than an internal attack -- demographics don't come into that. It is mentioned that the median age in Palestine is 15.1 years -- which is certainly an interesting point, but an outlier that's not relevant to a discussion of demographics in Europe. Palestinians are reproducing a lot because there are no jobs and
          • Okay, I probably was a bit kneejerk and overly dismissive. I'll try to explain my reasoning.

            The article asserts that the future belongs to Islam. It then mentions 9/11, which is an external rather than an internal attack -- demographics don't come into that.

            It is mentioned that the median age in Palestine is 15.1 years -- which is certainly an interesting point, but an outlier that's not relevant to a discussion of demographics in Europe. Palestinians are reproducing a lot because there are no jobs and litt
    • So, how many armoured battalions has "Islam" got? How many heavy industries to churn out weapons of war? Are these scary youths supposed to mass together and attack en horde in some sort of a latter day People's Crusade? They may have AK-47s, but you can't win an offensive war with those against a foe that has tanks, destroyers, choppers, and machine gun emplacements. You can only charge in bravely and die.

      As Ghandi proved- none of those machines work if they are clogged with the dead bodies of their enem
  • All religions decline and die. This time its christianity that's being shuffled off to the trash heap, thanks to better education and communications.

    There is nothing to prevent that from happening with any other religion ... until only the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster [venganza.org] is left.

    Seriously, this process has happened over and over throughout history. Cultures change, and abandon their roots.

    • This time its christianity that's being shuffled off to the trash heap, thanks to better education and communications.

      Islam != Atheism. And if you had RTFAd- you'd see that those with better education and communications are the very ones who are demographically doomed to be forced at gunpoint into the mosques 5 times a day.
      • by tomhudson (43916)

        Islam != Atheism

        Never said it was. What I said is "This time its christianity that's being shuffled off to the trash heap, thanks to better education and communications."

        This has happened plenty of times in human history. We don't see too much worship of Ra the Sun God or Mithras or Thor or Diana or a number of dead religions. People grow out of them, and replace them with the "next big thing", or with nothing.

        And if you had RTFAd- you'd see that those with better education and communications are th

        • Never said it was. What I said is "This time its christianity that's being shuffled off to the trash heap, thanks to better education and communications."

          This has happened plenty of times in human history. We don't see too much worship of Ra the Sun God or Mithras or Thor or Diana or a number of dead religions. People grow out of them, and replace them with the "next big thing", or with nothing.


          Ah, except for by all rights, Islam's Allah Worshipers have nothing to do with better education and communic
          • by tomhudson (43916)

            You seem to forget that the arabs gave us quite a lot of culture. Including such concepts as the number zero. They're not all wide-eyed religious zealots bent on destroying the world, no matter now much comfort^Wprofit BushCheneyHalliburton can draw from that position.

            On a related topic, look at how many are still spouting "The jews control hollywood" "the jews control the banks" and other rubbish.

            Well, look at the credits on the next movie you watch- or for that matter, the strange economy of the Uni

            • You seem to forget that the arabs gave us quite a lot of culture. Including such concepts as the number zero.

              Not since *before* the Reformation. 7th Century Catholicism gave us the Gregorian Chant as well. My argument is that something in Islam recently snapped- changing certain sects from rational religions to irrational ones. Gee- a lot like the Christian Reformation. And in support of my lifecycles of religions theory- right on time too (about 1400 years since Mohammed walked the planet- just as th
  • That the real choice is about how our children will worship and what kind of theocracy their government will be. Fortunately- world dominion Islam is easy to attack becasue they have based their whole identity on a prophecy that is tied to a single city. Unfortuneately, we refuse to attack that city- and thus we will lose. READ THE KORAN people- it's all laid out there for those who are willing to see.
  • I'll do what we can. Send me in, coach. I've been resting for almost three months. I'm ready.
  • Islam may or may not be the demographic that topples the [ christian | european + north american | NATO ] nations from global dominance, but it is inevitable that someone will. Nothing lasts forever.

    The US's lead in technlogy and resources that saw us rise to dominance in the last century will fade away. Globalization of industrialization and information means that any region has the potential to come together in a bid for power. The time will come when we will not be able to contest such a bid. (The time m
    • by elmegil (12001) *
      The PNAC plan [newamericancentury.org] was, I thnk, a plan to use our current dominance to achieve an extended and nakedly imperial dominance. It's a hard idea, and not necessarily a bad one.

      I think Rome has already shown that this is only burning passengers for fuel to stay aloft.

      I love my weird metaphors :)

  • For their oil, the result would be the same.

    Ideology is not the basis of conflict - it is a rationalizing and rallying force.

    The movie Syriana is flawed, in the complete omission of Israel and international finance, but it makes pretty clear the political causes of 'conflict'.
    • For their oil, the result would be the same.

      I doubt it. Do you know what happens to young Catholic men with no prospects sexually or financially? They become monks.

      Ideology is not the basis of conflict - it is a rationalizing and rallying force.

      Prior to about 1990, I would have agreed with you. The theology of Individual Jihad changed that.

      The movie Syriana is flawed, in the complete omission of Israel and international finance, but it makes pretty clear the political causes of 'conflict'.

      But i

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