My position on marriage, monogamy, and [what constitutes] adultery has really changed in the recent past (like over the last year, if I had to give a specific timeframe).
When I was 23, I got hit on in a bar by a guy -- and let him kiss me -- who it turned out was married. He had wanted to go back to my hotel room with me and "cuddle." I wasn't interested in doing that with him even if he *hadn't* been married, but discovering that he was -- well, the whole deal was off. And I wasn't equipped at the time, young and inexperienced as I was, to tell him exactly where to get off (i.e., absolutely *no*where in my personal vicinity).
I did go home and write a long and heartfelt diatribe in my journal about the nature of fidelity and what constitutes being "unfaithful." Basically, I believed that a married person should not express any kind of interest in a person other than her own spouse. No hypothetical situations, no "oh, what I would do with you if I weren't married"... That was crossing the line. It was important to be faithful in your marriage, because, well, that's what you promised to do.
Marriage was sacred because *some*thing had to be. And if you weren't going to hold to it, then was there really *any*thing you would hold to?
Well, fast forward about 10 years. Ten monogamous, mostly married, years.
It was actually a JE of sillypixie's (I guess she deleted it, 'cause it's not there any more) that elicited yet another vociferous homily on the value of marriage and how not feeling "loved" or "respected" or "honored" really had nothing to do with it. You made a promise, you stick it, who cares what the circumstances. You just do NOT walk away.
But believe it or not, that really got me thinking. I guess it's just my nature to play devil's advocate, even when it's my own beliefs that I'm questioning.
What I realized, when I thought about it, was that I really wasn't feeling very loved in my own marriage. And that my "needs" were *far* from being met. That I was living a miserable, unhappy existence because I was expecting my husband to provide me with things that he was either unwilling or incapable of giving me.
And I realized that expecting one other person to fulfill all my needs in *any* particular arena was ridiculous. Think about it with me for a moment. Think about what we need from other people. We need interaction and conversation. Do we limit ourselves to getting that solely from our spouses? Physical affection... Ever get any hugs from your kids, from your parents, from friends? A friendly pat on the shoulder, a squeeze of the hand... All physical gestures that may not seem significant, but try living without them for a while. I don't know about you, but me, I get to feeling like I'm literally starving.
Now... how about sex? Aaaahhh... there's the rub. (ha ha ha)
Why is it that sex is the ONE domain that is STRICTLY allowed only within confines of marriage (or at least, when you're married, your spouse is the only one you're supposed to have sex with)?
I have thought long and hard on this one. When you strip away the ego issues (facing the fact that no single person is ever going to completely satisfy another one, no matter how much I'd like to think that I could...), it really boils down to economics. Marriage is an economic institution. And up until about a hundred years ago (or less), it was an issue of ownership. A man, for all intents and purposes, owned his wife. So there was that little wrinkle.
So if being married is a matter of economics, if patrimony is the legal issue ('cause who should pay the child support can be a pretty contentious issue) -- and if no kids are conceived from extramarital relations, then...
You see, I've lost my faith in marriage. I used to think that it was worth preserving for its own sake. That it had its own inherent value. But I've come to realize that it's an arrangement that's rife with the potential for abuse. We take each other for granted. We think that simply because we went through a ceremony and have all kinds of paperwork, that the other person should put up with whatever shit it is that we want to dish out. Because divorce would simply be too shameful.
Well, I'm not scared of divorce any more. Yes, it would be incredibly inconvenient and my cushy life would come to an end. I'd have to get my ass out in the world and get a job and provide for myself for a change.
And I'd be a single mother. That would suck. Because even though Hubby isn't around much of the time, when he is around, I really rely on his efforts with the kids and around the house. It'd be a lot harder without him.
I'm sure there are plenty of other aspects about getting divorced that I couldn't even conceive of at this point.
But it hasn't come to that yet -- not even close. I've just considered the potential consequences that might befall me for seeking opportunities to live a more... fulfilled existence, shall we say.
Because at this point, all bets are off. I'm not looking to break up any marriages. Exactly the opposite, actually -- and if it ever comes anywhere *close* to that, then the line is drawn, the case is closed, the interaction ends. (My current sig really *is* the height of irony, and I was just playing off of TL's "Hold my beer while I steal your girlfriend" sig, for those of you who didn't get the joke.) I don't mean to cause anyone else any strife. If and when I ever do that, I really am truly sorry -- you just never know what circumstances are like on the other end of the line; I can only anticipate that the people I'm interacting with are considering the consequences of their actions as carefully as I have tried to consider mine.
But I truly believe that getting some attention & having some interaction [of an adult nature or otherwise] from people other than my spouse is essential to my happiness and well-being. And I do NOT believe that it is adultery or cheating. It is simply fulfilling needs that I have that are not being met by my spouse, and it ranks right up there with casual conversation or socializing with friends. (For what it's worth, I've shared this information with my husband already, over the course of quite a few conversations we've had in the past few months. Whether or not it's soaked in isn't for me to say.)
Doesn't mean I'm looking for a new husband, doesn't mean I'm seeking out "relationships," or even looking to fuck somebody else -- it just means that I recognize that I enjoy interacting with other people. Sometimes that interaction involves conversing about topics of a sexual nature (well, DUH). Sometimes it might even involve sharing more intimate details of my sexuality (in a full range of multimedia formats even!!). They are mine to share, and no one else can claim ownership of them.
And if Hubby were to come to the same conclusion, that he needed to flirt with other women, to feel wanted or desired by them, hell -- even if he wanted to fuck them -- if it meant that he would be happier and feel more fulfilled, I would send him off and give him my blessing. I'd just ask that he let me know when he plans to be home (so I won't worry that he's off dead in wreckage on the side of the road somewhere) and that he not bring home any diseases.
So I just wanted to lay my cards on the table. This is who I am. This is what I believe. This is where I am at this particular juncture of my life. Is it pathetic to want attention this badly? Am I a whore for not caring if it comes from someone other than my husband?
I invite you to tell me what a bad person I am. Condemn me, eschew my company, deride me for how pitiful and sadly desperate my existence is that I gotta go to the innerweb to get my jollies. Make plenty of redneck trailer trash jokes. Oh, and fat chicks with Daddy issues ones, too! Lay it on me. Hit me with your best shot. Be nasty. Lord knows *I* can be -- but mostly just in a good way.
Hmmm (Score:2)
Actually, I just wanted to let you know that I'm free on Thursday...
Lay it on me. Hit me with your best shot.
Yup, that was sorta my plan! Winkwinknudgenudgesaynomore.
You gonna be on IM after 9-10 (your time) tonight?
Nicely said (Score:2)
You read any Heinlein? He had a lot of intersting stuff to say on the subject.
be a dick in this thread (Score:2)
Re:be a dick in this thread (Score:2)
Now - do realize that many of us have enough karma to make anyone who makes poor decision's lives a living hell, or at least earn them a short vacation from the dot. Reading the responses thus far, I've learned where different people stand on the subject.
I guess I'm more of a traditionalist when it comes to this stuff. I'
Re:be a dick in this thread (Score:2)
I mean, I appreciate HBI's chivalry and all, but really -- open season on Bethanie time. Let's have it out.
Re:be a dick in this thread (Score:2)
The second is permissible, even encouraged.
It is comments such as these (Score:2)
that completely explain why HBI was one of the first people on /. I became a fan of.
Yup.... (Score:2)
Do what you gotta do to keep yourself happy. Marriage is not the end-all be-all of existence. There's much more to life. But granted, I'm a bit younger than you, so what do I know?
Right (Score:2)
And one might even suspect you of throwing out ultimatums to get a reaction out of your husband.
(I had to seriously debate posting this. I know Bethanie can handle it, but I'm sure I'll have to hear from everyone else about it. But hey, that's why I have this think, elephant-like e-hide for.)
Re:Right (Score:2)
And if he reads this one, he's not going to see anything new -- nothing we haven't gone over in a number of intensive, in-depth conversations over the course of the past few months.
If THIS is what it takes to get a "reaction" out of him, then I guess I should have done it months ago.
Yes -- I can handle this, babe. No one's gotten nearly as mean as I'd expected... yet.
Re:Right (Score:2)
I thought I saw him post here once, maybe it was someone else.
And if he reads this one, he's not going to see anything new -- nothing we haven't gone over in a number of intensive, in-depth conversations over the course of the past few months.
Which you said, and that's actually what I was referring to. I didn't necessarily think *this* was the threat, but that you had been making them.
If THIS is what it takes to get a "reaction" out of him, then
Re:Right (Score:2)
It's more about attention and appreciation and engagement... Being able to talk about things OTHER than just the house and the kids and what to have for supper. You know -- the age-old story. I don't pretend that any of this is anything brand new or original just for my marriage.
But yes, seeing me as a woman and as a lover and not just his "
Re:Right (Score:2)
Re:Right (Score:2)
Ok, that's good, I think. Maybe I just didn't see anything else in your original description, or maybe the sex part just lept out too much.
And it's not that I've "threatened" to leave him -- I've just let him know that divorce is not outside the realm of possibility like I always thought it was.
Now that could easily be my coloring of the situat
Re:Right (Score:2)
Absolutely false. Sorry ryan.
to us, marriage is a solemn commitment between two people. no god required. it's more important to us n
Re:Right (Score:2)
Uh, isn't that exactly what Ryan implied? That those who don't understand or attach a religious significance (SACRAMENT, damnit, I'm a Catholic) would need to address such issues. Those of us who do have a Sacrament
Re:Right (Score:2)
Look at the rest of the comments, people wondering why you can't be married, and do x, y, and z. Why indeed.
Re:Right (Score:2)
If you think there is no moral basis without god, then you would naturally think you need god. Of course, that's not true, but I know I won't convince you of that! moral codes and ideals existed long before god came into the picture. altruism helps the human race as a who
Re:Right (Score:2)
And, BTW, you're incorrect- God or more likely Gods came long before altruism. The concept of the god started with Animism- the idea of the spirit of the place, that certain places *demanded* certain behaviors (quite often closely linked with what we think of today as physical law- if you didn't do those actions, your cult
Re:Right (Score:2)
-Yes, you can come up with arbitrary moral systems. And they're just arbitrary. You could just as well go with "might makes right" instead of "golden rule."
-No, God was there first, he created the place, right?
The marriage issue is a bit more complicated, actually. Thought perhaps a bit more apropos for Bethanie's JE today. I can sum it up as the state has no place in marriage at all. It shouldn't have been turned into a legal status. That happened long ago,
Re:Right (Score:2)
of course, you know that the golden rule was "snatched" from the Tao, which was written around 600 years before jesus said it, no?
Chapter 13.
whether there is or isn't a god has no effect on choice in moral systems. christian moral code has been behind horrible atrocities as much as secular lack of moral code. there is still (even a
Re:Right (Score:2)
You can choose to follow whichever moral system you like. You don't get to choose which one you answer for in the afterlife.
Re:Right (Score:2)
Re:Right (Score:2)
Re:Right (Score:2)
IM me and I'll whisper 'em to ya real nice, like.
Re:Right (Score:2)
Re:Right (Score:2)
Re:Right (Score:2)
Re:Right (Score:2)
Did you mean Christ or Joseph Smith?
Re:Right (Score:2)
Re:Right (Score:2)
Re:Right (Score:2)
:-D
Here's the rub... (Score:2)
Now, in a partnership, he needs to agree 'yeah that's cool, but let's plot out some rules.'
Letting him know that some of your beliefs are changing is good, but is it going to be s sticking point? will it cause trouble? did you really plan ahead before writing this?
I don't know much about the marriage situation, but the primary reason for fildelity isn't economics, it's all abou
Re:Here's the rub... (Score:2)
Re:Here's the rub... (Score:2)
Bethanie said:
Why is it that sex is the ONE domain that is STRICTLY allowed only within confines of marriage (or at least, when you're married, your spouse is the only one you're supposed to have sex with)?
To tie the two together, I don't think couples married for love should have extra-marital loves and lusts unless the couple has di
Re:Here's the rub... (Score:2)
What Marriage Means (Score:2)
I just hope you find happiness.
Re:What Marriage Means (Score:2)
I have to agree that's basically it. When people had a greater chance of dying young, and life was harder, people didn't have as much opportunity to change over time ... and if they did, they didn't have as many people around them, or as good communications (they didn't know that everyone else felt the same way).
Part of the problem is unrealistic expectations. When people stop learning, stop growing, they stop changing. Anyone who expects the person they're with (or themselve
Re:What Marriage Means (Score:2)
Re:What Marriage Means (Score:2)
think of a marriage license as any other license ... just because you have a drivers' license doesn't mean you're a good driver, or that you ever were one ... just that you were able to get a license. Drivers licenses get revoked for all sorts of reasons.
Now apply this to marriage ... its an agreement for better or worse, etc., and as such it actually is an illegal contract, because in essence it amounts to mutual servitude, and last I heard, slavery is illegal. People should stick together because they
Re:What Marriage Means (Score:2)
The BIG problem with marriage - it comes with way too many unreasonable expectations. The expectation that everyone should have the same tastes at 60 that they do at 20, for example
that is not a problem with marriage, it is a problem with people. society. i do not believe i
Re:What Marriage Means (Score:2)
Actually, the ability to be monogamous is completely governed by hormones. Completely. Check out the studies of prairie voles years ago http://www.scientificamericandigital.com/index.cf m ?fa=Products.ViewIssuePreview&ARTICLEID_CHAR=64A17 AF9-9FE9-4CDE-8319-05C2FBE1B5D [scientific...igital.com] for one example - I read the original article when it came out, and it explains a LOT about human behaviour. Here's another http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/200 4/3/monogamy.cfm [si.edu]
Remember, monogamy is extremely unnatural in
Re:What Marriage Means (Score:2)
Thank you. (Score:2)
I'm sorry to hear that (Score:2)
A hypothetical marriage like you describe ("just don't catch any diseases") doesn
Having read ALL the other responses (Score:2)
I'll tell you my opinion... (Score:2)
If you felt this way when you were about to get married, I'd tell you not to get married.
When you said your marriage vows, did you promise to be faithful only to your husband and vice versa? Well, then, that includes sex and all that other good stuff. I don't think flirting is being unfaithful. Physically sharing desires (even if it is only a kiss) is going against a promise you made t
Re:I'll tell you my opinion... (Score:2)
Ultimately some people shoulder all the responsibility, get pissed at the lazy ones and the whole thing goes to shit.
My side. (Score:2)
question (Score:3, Insightful)