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Comment: Re: Have u thought about.. (Score 1) 522

If you want that kind of guarantee, you have to be willing to pay for it.

The price is negotiated and specified in the contract, yes.

The responsibility is ultimately not the contractor, but YOU the person who's running the shell company pretending to be a software developing house. Since all you've done is essentially rent out a contractor to do the work that a publishing house would normally do in house, you only rented him for a contracted period of time. You're not supporting him on staff, so unless you work out a maintennce contract what you pay for, then you don't have an indefinite claim on his time and life for the finite sum you paid.

What the hell are you talking about?
I don't run any company and I don't rent out any software developers.
Lay off the dope for a moment and check my posts in this thread. I am not AC so I'm easy to follow.

If you contract me to write software for you, you get a certain amount of work for a contracted amount. If it includes support, that will be part of the contract and will factor in the price. If you don't pay for anything other than the work done, than that exhausts any obligations between you and I.

Should I ever contract a SW developer (not likely, but let's assume), you or otherwise, I would expect the finished product to be fit for purpose and work "as advertised", that is: as laid out in the spec. The contractor will then tell me the time they need for delivering the project and the price they will charge me. If I am satisfied with those, we will have a deal.

However if, some time(*) after the contractor delivered, the application crashes because a user ID happened to be a Mersenne Prime, then the program does not perform as specified, ergo: terms of the contract have not been met and I would expect the contractor to fix it for no additional cost.

(*) One year sounds reasonable to me.

In the company I worked for, we paid an outside contractor to maintain and support our database as a long term ongoing partnership, he not only installed it but provided ongoing maintennce and updates because he was being paid to do so, a mutual arrangement that worked quite well.

See my example above. If the program would crash because the US government decided do add another digit to SSNs then the contractor could argue that it is a specification change and fixing it would require a (new) maintenance contract. The same would hold OS upgrades, DB provider changes, change requests, bad specs or any other circumstance that is outside the contractor's control. Bugs, that is: implementation ERRORS, do not fall in that scope.

Comment: Re: Have u thought about.. (Score 1) 522

by alexo (#43806997) Attached to: Ask Slashdot: Moving From Contract Developers To Hiring One In-House?

There is no way you have software development experience with that mindset. You put together routines that are based on user intervention. You can never anticipate every possible combination of actions an end-user will do and what issues may arise from all the various functions you wrote. That's why you have user acceptance testing. Bugs aren't there b/c they were "put" there. That's not at all how it works. Educate yourself before you start bashing people. This isn't like painting a fence.

I don't know the intricacies of painting fences but I've been developing software for a living since the late 80s. I assure you that I do not hold others to higher standards than I am held to.

Comment: Re: Have u thought about.. (Score 1) 522

by alexo (#43806725) Attached to: Ask Slashdot: Moving From Contract Developers To Hiring One In-House?

This is only true for suitably strict definitions of the term "bug".

That's the definition that I, and all places I have worked at, use.

O/S changes, configuration changes, hardware changes, data changes, requirements changes can all lead to "bugs" that should not be covered under the initial terms of development (and are rarely covered under the initial development contract).

Those are not bugs.

I have yet to see the customer that wants to pay to have the developer specify "exactly" how software will perform.

The customer is the one providing the spec.

Additionally, requirements can be misinterpreted between the customer and developer, such that the developer believes the system is working perfectly, while the customer thinks it is broken.

Ambiguous or incomplete specs are usually the fault of the customer. Other than that, there are accepted ways of handling contract disputes.

Look and feel "bugs" may exist where the customer expects a certain usability that is either non-standard or not explicitly covered under the requirements.

The onus is on the customer to clearly communicate their expectations.

The problem is he OP hasn't specified exactly what kinds of bugs he won't pay for.

My assertion was independent of the OP's post. However, I would use the interpretation "implementation errors".

If it is a case of scope creep, poor requirements, poor communication of requirements, new operating environments, new data configurations, etc and he wouldn't pay, then I'd hesitate to work for him either.

Can't fault you for that. However, a good developer should be able to resolve a lot of ambiguities by either asking for clarifications or documenting their assumptions (and having the customer vet them). This should be done before writing code.

A much better practice would be for him to pay for bugs, but be choosy on which developers he re-uses. In any other profession, the cost of "mistakes" are passed along to the customer.

Not on the planet I inhabit. Of course they may try to pull it off, but that would be a scam.

While building a new building, if the electrician installs a plug then realizes "oops, this is supposed to be a GFCI plug", it's not like he stops the clock, goes and gets a new plug, removes the old plug, installs the new one and restarts the clock. He gets paid for the cost of his "mistake".

A friend of mine hired a contractor to put hardwood floors in his house. At some time before the job was finished, he noticed that the contractor was using thinner planks than he requested (and paid for). At the end, the contractor redid the floors at his own expense. This is as it should be.

Comment: Re:Status quo barring economic collapse (Score 1) 463

by alexo (#43803145) Attached to: The Canadian Government's War On Science

It also helps that Canada is considered to be the G8 country that best weathered the recent recession. People have not just been led to believe that, pretty much all objective measures (GDP growth, increase in debt to GDP ration, etc.) point to Canada doing rather well economically. While I'm no fan of Harper's social policies (being in some ways a wannabe American), Flaherty is a phenomenal Finance Minister, and the economic policies of the current government seem to be working.

Canada's ability to weather the recession was due to regulation and other measures put in place long before the Harper government got in power.

Comment: Re:Status quo barring economic collapse (Score 1) 463

by alexo (#43803119) Attached to: The Canadian Government's War On Science

I agree that they are incompetent at what it takes to get elected: lying, cheating, back room dealing, slinging mud, etc.

Before every federal or provincial (Ontario) elections, I make a point to communicate with the candidates in my riding, ask them questions and try to judge their responses. We usually have Liberal, Conservative, NDP and Green, sometimes independents and/or obscure parties. The NDP candidates have consistently made the most "normal" impression: actually giving answers instead of spin, not afraid to admit they need get more data on a subject before they can form an opinion (instead of trying to guess what my position is and pretending to support it).

The NDP are not perfect by any means. There are some things in their platform I disagree with, but they are up-front.

Comment: Re:These are the people that most citizens depend (Score 1) 74

by alexo (#43802619) Attached to: NYPD Detective Accused of Hiring Email Hackers

These are the people that most citizens depend on

A good portion of the citizenry have already realized that the only difference between police and any other organized crime gang is that the former is backed by government while the later are viewed as competition. The others will catch up after they have their first interaction with the police.

This view will not change until members of the force are at least as accountable as the average Joe.

Comment: Re: Have u thought about.. (Score 1) 522

by alexo (#43797909) Attached to: Ask Slashdot: Moving From Contract Developers To Hiring One In-House?

If you accepted the code as meeting the terms of the contract, then you have agreed that the work was done right. Or at least done as well as you expected. You don't get to change your mind later. You don't get the right to permanent support simply because you can't be arsed to make sure you've gotten what you asked for.

Should I make a car analogy to demonstrate the error in this argument?

Comment: Re: Have u thought about.. (Score 1) 522

by alexo (#43797883) Attached to: Ask Slashdot: Moving From Contract Developers To Hiring One In-House?

No. No software exists in isolation and bugs frequently emerge in complex systems when components interact in new and unexpected ways. Needless to say, developing components in isolation doesn't help and the contracting model further exacerbates this issue...

While true, this is a different issue.

If you develop these components, the interaction between them is your responsibility.
If you develop only some of them, the interaction is governed by the specifications. The components that fail to adhere to the spec are at fault and, if they are not yours, it is perfectly acceptable to demand additional payment for fixing the problem. Documentation helps: if you state clearly that your program works under XP SP3 (and the client signs off on if), additional work to make it not break under Win7 is outside the original scope.

Comment: Re: Have u thought about.. (Score 1) 522

by alexo (#43796019) Attached to: Ask Slashdot: Moving From Contract Developers To Hiring One In-House?

All guarantees have limits. With cars, it's a set number of miles or months, whatever is reached first.

Car components suffer from mechanical wear, chemical degradation, etc. Therefore, it is often hard to say whether whether a problem is due to those reasons or to a manufacturing defect.

Computer software (and some hardware), on the other hand, is not subject to such limitations. If you wrote an OS that crashes after 49.7 days of uptime, it is your fault, no matter how long it takes to detect the problem. If you build a processor that returns incorrect results on some FP division operations, it is your fault, and can cost you $475M.

I agree that some time limits are reasonable, but they should be measured in years.

Comment: Re: Have u thought about.. (Score 1) 522

by alexo (#43794905) Attached to: Ask Slashdot: Moving From Contract Developers To Hiring One In-House?

My code is not guaranteed indefinitely. Any bugs which appear after the contract is expired can be fixed under another contract if I agree to fix them. I am certainly under no obligation to do that later work at all and especially not for free.

Bugs do not just "appear". Any bug in your code exists only because you put it there, which means your work was sub-standard. Expecting more money for fixing your mistakes is like telling the customer that you'll bill them twice: once for doing a shoddy job and again for doing it right, like you were supposed to in the first place.

If, due to bugs in your program, it does not perform exactly as specified, you have not fulfilled your end of the contract.

Comment: Re:New IRS dress code (Score 1) 363

by alexo (#43787547) Attached to: Medical Firm Sues IRS For 4th Amendment Violation In Records Seizure

Yep. Which means the only real solution, and deterrent, is to place personal responsibility upon those who ordered and implemented these activities. Start firing people and taking away their cushy government pensions and benefits, instead of letting them resign into comfy retirement, and you'll start seeing change.

No no no no no!

When you commit a crime, you don't get "fired from a cushy job", you go to jail.
Why should these people be treated differently?

Comment: Re:They're just getting a head start on Obamacare. (Score 1) 363

by alexo (#43787395) Attached to: Medical Firm Sues IRS For 4th Amendment Violation In Records Seizure

The most charitable thing you can say at the moment is that they apparently have more power than they can manage is a responsible way, let along legal way.

It may be more accurate to say that certain IRS agents think they have far more power than they actually do and have let their mistake go to their heads.

I believe recent events, including this one, show that they actually have all the power that they think they do.

and have let their mistake go to their heads.

As long as there's no chance of said heads rolling, that was not a mistake.

Deprive a mirror of its silver and even the Czar won't see his face.

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