Most people don't commit crimes for fear of punishment, not because they morally object.
Every person I've ever heard say that also said that they'd not commit murder if it were legal.
So I assume everyone who says that is a hyporite. How about you? Are you a murderer, restrained solely by fear of punishment?
Billions of people go top some kind of church or another. So
And at least a few of them genuinely believe in the magical thinking, while most are just there from social peer pressure. But it's still a dire problem.
Seems like this should really be IBM's forte. I wonder why they didn't jump into it with both feet.
Apple are merging OS X into IOS, albeit very slowly.
Nope. I've been there, and nobody at Apple has any such intention. Features will get passed back and forth between them, but they're very aware of the reasons that Tablet PCs failed, and they're not going to copy MS's mistakes.
Get your meds adjusted, kid. I'm not going to quit signing my posts with my initials, no matter how much you whine about it.
Systemd "won" because of the choices of distibution maintainers, not the choices of linux users or the linux ecosystem. The rise of systemd occurred in a top-down manner, which is the exact opposite of how traditional open source software gains acceptance and widespread usage. Somehow it's not surprising that systemd itself (the software) operates in a similar top-down manner, forcing adoption by creating new dependency issues.
Was that an exercise in truth inversion?
The Linux ecosystem is exactly what made systemd "win". And the rise of systemd occurred in a bottom-up manner actually.
systemd actually didn't win anything, it just allowed the streamlining of using the Linux kernel specific features that nobody used because of catering to the lowest denominator. I was not surprised at all at how fast true admins got rid of sysvinit or even Upstart.
On the machines I control, I've done this more than 15 years ago, going with simpleinit-msb for most of this time, before having to switch to an alternative because maintaining it was leaving me sometimes with security vulnerabilities to fix alone.
It worked.. except when it didn't. I should not have to hack my init scripts just because I have iSCSI or Clustered Fileystem mounts. Init was made in a time when the boot dependencies are more flat and don't do well at all when your setup requires network+daemon before the filesystem can be mounted.
Exactly! When you have several layers on top of your block devices, like RAID and LVM, it's even worse.
It was such a pain before, despite the LVM or multipath daemons, I was never sure the servers would reboot correctly, or the config freeze or corrupts itself.
Such a nightmare before systemd tackled the problems and sometimes the bugs in kernel or daemons, now it just works.
"And your vision of systemd is wrong by the way : educate yourself please."
How about you tell me then. Apparently you're such an uber admin that surely it'll be no problem to list the advantages of systemd compared to init. Right?
I won't do your work for you, and you must be a pretty bad one to talk about things you don't even know about.
If reading skills and understanding skills are so challenging to you, you won't understand a thing, which is probably what happened already, given the copious amount of documentation available on systemd. There never were any for sysvinit and its scripts, and a very bad one for Upstart.
Besides, you need experience with sysvinit or Upstart to understand the biggest advantages of systemd.
Given my experience, I just don't take people that say sysvinit (or Upstart) had no problem seriously, less of my time lost this way.
if I had mod points, I'd mod you as troll.
its not the 'basement dwellers' - those guys have zero experience in unix, given that they are alive less than 20 years, usually, and they know only what they've learned during the obama years and not much before that.
the rest of us who have used and managed unix since the 80's have to dump WHAT WORKED WELL and move to some new shit that clearly has issues, does not fit in or belong very well and is being forced on us.
Stop making fool of these veteran good unix sysadmins please. I will not associate with some fool like you. You people that know nothing love to give yourself a false authority by saying this nonsense everytime. But a good sysadmin will see through you without any problem.
You trolls are so nonsensical that you say Upstart WORKED WELL and was available in the 80. Linux is not Unix BTW, if you were a seasoned Unix sysadmin, you would loathe Linux more than systemd, systemd is only possible because of Linux.
You are wrong on all counts, so blinded by your hatred for something you don't even understand, it's pathetic.
I've encountered very few admins that even understand how a Unix-like boots anyway, lots of seasoned admins just have no ideas.
I've encountered far more Linux sysadmins that had this knowledge than anything else.
At best you're one of them.
see, the value of a craftsman is in his knowledge and experience of his tools. some people spend decades learning how to use their tools and work in their trade and the time shows; experience is worth having and paying for!
what happened now: some newbie decided the old way was not good enough and decided to change it all out, for no good reason at all (I have not yet seen a good reason to reinvent a wheel that has been working for longer than most of you have been ALIVE).
You're wrong, plain and simple!
Upstart was trying to solve lots of problems of sysvinit that a seasoned Unix admin should know about, it even used dbus.
And the decision to use systemd by default in Ubuntu was the distro maintainers choice.
No good reason to make better than sysvinit? I've seen reasons 16 years ago, that's why since then I never installed sysvinit init anymore on my own made Linux OS. And yet, in my work environment, I'm still to this day the most knowledgeable around about how all this sysvinit crap works, be it SYSV or BSD style.
faster startup is not a reason; this isn't a media player and linux still does not startup in 3 seconds or less, so what's the point of 'faster startup' when its really not fast enough to justify this forklift upgrade of sorts?
If that's the only reason you know about, it just confirms you know nothing about systemd. This is not even one of the main advantage of systemd since years.
The dynamic nature of the Linux kernel and its devices is one main reason.
So posting in a thread about a feature he does not like is somehow looking back at the systems? So once you change systems you cannot ever look or post on the previous techs threads or you are looking back?
No, once you said "I am not looking back", and then you come to a thread of the thing you weren't supposed to be looking at, I call you on your BS.
Besides, this serves no purpose at all, this doesn't help people in the thread, and doesn't help him either.
I see a poor person looking for validation because of his/her insecurity of having changed OS, which doesn't help his/her cause actually.
> journalctl -f
Which simply does not help. systemd doesn't usually save stderr so the journal is more often than not useless for troubleshooting. If you had actually used systemd, you'd realize those guys don't grok UNIX. They simply don't get it. They don't understand why stderr is so important. Instead, they just toss it away. If you had actually used systemd, instead of just trolling, you'd realize why it is fundamentally broken.
You didn't use systemd either : it has step by step execution, debug option which is very verbose, emergency shell, debug shell (on vt9), all of this off the top of my head.
Besides, systemd is not based on Unix, it's heavily tied to the Linux kernel, the same Linux kernel that already doesn't grok UNIX if you want to go that way.
Actually, systemd uses a lot of Linux features not present on Unix. If you wanted to complain, you'd have complained about Linux primarily.
systemd would not even be possible on any Unix, that's why portability of systemd to other Unix was thrown away.
And then when you got past the nipples you stopped the download because there wasn't a point any longer.
By then, I'd usually lost patience and just turned to my vast collection of ASCII porn stored on a tape drive.
Those were the days......
Can't wait for the vulnerabilities I found and gave to some nice hacker friends to hit systemd right as it's hitting 'prime time' and beats it back into obscurity.
So you found vulnerabilities but don't even know how to exploit them ?
People talking about things they don't even understand...
Systemd, eh? I predict that this thread will be filled with sensible and rational comments.
Personally, I'm not a fan. It's overly complex to the point of being nearly undebuggable which makes it much harder to fix than the older system. Frankly it's also written by Pottering and given the awful experience I've had in the past and still sometimes have with PulseAudio, I don't really trust it. It's fine to have PA crap itself and require a restart (well, kind of annoying in the middle of watching TV, but survivable). I rather hope he's written systemd somewhat better.
I know the distribution makers like it because packaging stuff is easier, but the end user experience (the end user being me) is IME inferior. But I care about debuggability, hackability and simplicity over having a very heavily intetegrated desktop "experience".
It's obvious you're not a fan of systemd, you can't even manage a Linux OS properly, restarting because of a PA crap (which would normally show a audio Linux module bug) that you're unable to handle correctly and then talking about debugging the init of your system which is far harder to do.
Actually, debugging systemd startup is easier (or I should say faster) than debugging Upstart, especially the dependencies, there are tools included in systemd that do nearly everything for you.
Besides, a sound server has nothing in common with an init system, so making comparisons between the two shows no technical knowledge at all.
The end user experience of Ubuntu is not about the self-contradictory "debuggability, hackability and simplicity", it's about simplicity which contradicts your "hackability" statement.
I don't see how the end-user experience is inferior, this makes no sense. When you change your timezone in the graphical UI and it is now synchronized automatically with the underlying OS, and the change is visible in the command line, when it was not the case before with Upstart (or sysvinit), that's an improvement in my book.